29 réponses à ce sujet

[lexicality]

Update: Things to know about reave
1 - to armour, damage is applied immediately and not over time as the description states
2 - On Veteran there is a 10% reduction in Reaves damage
3 - on Insanity there is a 20% reduction in Reaves damage

Note, if comparing damage to Warp, warp gets a double damage bonus when applied directly to armour.

Major thanks to cruc1al and m14567


I've never felt it worked so I placed my squadmates out of the way and on the grunt recruitment level when you go down the steep hill and take out the blue suns ambush you can sit behind cover and test your attacks on the krogan who just stands patiently for you.

I compared reave to warp
Warp - level 2, does 140 points of damage
Reave - level 2, does 40 points per second over 3.5 seconds. Does double damage to armour. Therefore 80 points per second = 280 damage.

On this calculation Reave is the clear winner.
On observation however,
- Warp does far more damage.
- Reave does an initial small amount of damage (compared to warp)
- Reave appears to do no additional damage to the armour over time

As both are biotic powers, upgrades are irrelevant in the difference.
Has anyone else noticed this?

Modifié par lexicality, 14 avril 2010 - 10:24 .

[edgar95]

no.

[Daewan]

No, but it's pretty darn backwards.  Why does the Jedi Justicar get the bloodsucking power while the Space Vampire gets Jedi mind control powers?  How does that make any sense?

[9thLich]

Reave is strong, but imo not for the reasons you stated.

Unlike other powers it benefits from both Biotic Damage 1-5 and Biotic Duration for its own damage.

[lexicality]

I'm not denying the life draining over time. That definitely works. But after the initial small hit to armour there is no further damage to it over time. Thats the part that I'm questioning.

Therefore biotic upgrades for duration also have no effect on armour over time.

[cruc1al]

lexicality wrote...

I compared reave to warp
Warp - level 2, does 140 points of damage
Reave - level 2, does 40 points per second over 3.5 seconds. Does double damage to armour. Therefore 80 points per second = 280 damage.

On this calculation Reave is the clear winner.

What the he||? You completely forgot to multiply warp with 2, its multiplier against armor.

On that basis warp would be better against armor (and barrier) since it has the advantage of instantly delivering all damage.

Reave, however, has

1) life draining, during which the enemy is helpless
2) instant cast by Shepard unlike Warp
3) area of effect version to take down multiple barriers at once or drain and incapacitate multiple unprotected enemies at once; warp needs a power combo to benefit from area effect
4) and as stated before, its damage benefits by 20% from the duration upgrade and hence does more damage per use than warp

Modifié par cruc1al, 14 avril 2010 - 06:37 .

[lexicality]

@cruc1al
As far as I'm aware, Warp only gets its 2x multiplier if the enemy is pre-buffed by another biotic effect like pull.
I'm not denying that area reave is a brilliant skill which I use a lot for the reasons you've stated.
Its just that in the description for reave in the game the last line reads "reave also does double damage to armour and barriers." And the area reave damage line states " Damage: 40 points per second for 4 seconds"
All I'm saying is that once you remove your squadmates and stop firing and test an opponent with armour then,
1 - I've never seen the armour of an opponent affected over time as the description states.
2 - As its impossible to know exactly how much damage has been done to an opponents armour I used Warp as a comparison. Without using warps pre-buff multiplier Reave should do more damage but only does a fraction of that compared to warp.

Seriously, all you have to do is move your squadmates out of the way and hit a scion with reave. Its armour will not deplete over time after its initial miniscule impact - as its description indicates it should.

I've just loaded an insanity ng+ adept iff run and respecced with reave and reconfirmed it.

Modifié par lexicality, 14 avril 2010 - 06:13 .

[MaaZeus]

No. Its powerfull, but not godlike. My vanguard has it, use it from time to time to compensate the damage he tends to take, but I still get my arse kicked now and then.

[cruc1al]

lexicality wrote...

@cruc1al
As far as I'm aware, Warp only gets its 2x multiplier if the enemy is pre-buffed by another biotic effect like pull.

No, Warp has 2x multiplier against armor and barriers, just like overload does against shields. Test it against shields and you'll notice it does half the damage of overload, and test overload against armor/barrier and you'll notice that does half the damage of Warp. In addition to that, warp does x2 damage to the detonated target, but that applies only when the target is down to health so the resistance bonuses don't apply anymore. Mass effect wikia is your friend.

I'm not denying that area reave is a brilliant skill which I use a lot for the reasons you've stated.
Its just that in the description for reave in the game the last line reads "reave also does double damage to armour and barriers." And the area reave damage line states " Damage: 40 points per second for 4 seconds"
All I'm saying is that once you remove your squadmates and stop firing and test an opponent with armour then,
1 - I've never seen the armour of an opponent affected over time as the description states.
2 - As its impossible to know exactly how much damage has been done to an opponents armour I used Warp as a comparison. Without using warps pre-buff multiplier Reave should do more damage but only does a fraction of that compared to warp.

Seriously, all you have to do is move your squadmates out of the way and hit a scion with reave. Its armour will not deplete over time after its initial miniscule impact - as its description indicates it should.

That really does sound like it's bugged, I'll have to try it out myself

Modifié par cruc1al, 14 avril 2010 - 06:36 .

[SmilingMirror]

Warp and Reave both have 2x multiplier on armor. Go to the gameplay thread and see for yourself. You might want to educate yourself on how Warp works as well, as the +100% damage bonus from pull and slam is completely different.

In all my experiences, reave is only good at the beginning of the game because my sentinels can skip throw and immediately start putting points into reave. I dump it around the time I need to retrain. The warp explosion is one of the most powerful tricks in the game, and personally, I'd say Warp is more broken than Reave is.

Reave will only drain health bars. In all other cases (armor/shields/barrier) the effect is immediate just like warp. If the health bar is organic it will give you health regeneration.

Modifié par SmilingMirror, 14 avril 2010 - 06:56 .

[SmilingMirror]

yorkj86 wrote...

Warp detonates Reave if Reave is used on un-shielded targets, right?  I think of it as a humiliation kill.


"What's that?  You're in agony?  Well, that's too bad, because you're also going to explode."

No. Warp only detonates:
Pull
Slam
Singularity
Dominate (possibly, i've heard rumors)

Warp is not a humilation kill. It destroys groups of enemies. Most powerful direct damage power in the game.
It gets:
+100% on main target for ragdoll physics, and it recieve newton damage
+100% damage for detonating warp, and a very large radius increase
2x damage against enemies near main target with armor on, if the armor is ripped off they recieve newton damage
Needless to say, anything near the thing you detonated is probably dead, even a YMIR mech would have a hard time surviving.

Modifié par SmilingMirror, 14 avril 2010 - 07:04 .

[davidshooter]

lexicality wrote...

@cruc1al
As far as I'm aware, Warp only gets its 2x multiplier if the enemy is pre-buffed by another biotic effect like pull.
I'm not denying that area reave is a brilliant skill which I use a lot for the reasons you've stated.
Its just that in the description for reave in the game the last line reads "reave also does double damage to armour and barriers." And the area reave damage line states " Damage: 40 points per second for 4 seconds"
All I'm saying is that once you remove your squadmates and stop firing and test an opponent with armour then,
1 - I've never seen the armour of an opponent affected over time as the description states.
2 - As its impossible to know exactly how much damage has been done to an opponents armour I used Warp as a comparison. Without using warps pre-buff multiplier Reave should do more damage but only does a fraction of that compared to warp.

Seriously, all you have to do is move your squadmates out of the way and hit a scion with reave. Its armour will not deplete over time after its initial miniscule impact - as its description indicates it should.

I've just loaded an insanity ng+ adept iff run and respecced with reave and reconfirmed it.

My understanding is that reave delivers all of it's damage at once to barriers, shields, and armor and only over time to health giving you the health boost, but the damage reave delivers to barriers, sheilds, and armor at once is the total.  So 40 points per second for 4 seconds translates to 160 points instantly against shields (for example) but no health boost.  I'd like to be corrected if that isn't the case but i thought I read a dev post describing this.

I also think there is a bug with reave effecting armor/barrier/shields into health.  If you have a sliver of any protection reave just finishes off the protection but doesn't continue into the health bar.

Modifié par davidshooter, 14 avril 2010 - 07:04 .

[lexicality]

SmilingMirror wrote...
Warp is not a humilation kill. It destroys groups of enemies. Most powerful direct damage power in the game.
It gets:
+100% on main target for ragdoll physics, and it recieve newton damage
+100% damage for detonating warp, and a very large radius increase
2x damage against enemies near main target with armor on, if the armor is ripped off they recieve newton damage

Agreed.

According to wiki
http://masseffect.wi...p#Mass_Effect_2
"Warp is a biotic power available to Adepts and Sentinels. The power spawns a mass effect field that damages enemy targets and stops health regeneration. It also detonates any biotic powers affecting the target, such as Pull or Singularity. The detonated target takes double damage from Warp, and all targets within the Detonation Radius receive full damage. If they are also being affected by a biotic power, then they also take double damage."

Therefore a straight warp on an armoured character with no other biotic effects triggered nearby will only produce the standard 1x damage multiplier.
On heavy warp this is 200 points of damage.
Area reave should do 40 points per second over 4 seconds
However, when attacking the scion as I described above  the damage over time does not happen.
Upon visual inspection it appears to do about 1/5 of the damage of warp.

This would imply that only the first 40 points of damage (i.e. the first second of damage, and before applying the 2x multiplier for armour) are applied to the armoured scion.

Modifié par lexicality, 14 avril 2010 - 07:55 .

[cruc1al]

I just compared Reave and Warp in-game against barriers and armor.

Settings:
- Insanity NG+ level 30 (modded to give me infinite health for testing purposes)
- Level 3 Warp: 160 base damage
- Level 3 Reave: 160 base damage (40 * 4 seconds; however against protection the effect is instantaneous)
- Biotic Damage 3/5, Biotic Duration
- No power damage bonuses from armor or passive

I tested them on Harbringer in the first fight of the collector vessel.

Warp

Seven uses damaged the barrier so that only a very very tiny bit of the bar was left. A further seven shots and a tiny bit of armor was left, but more than there was after 7 shots to barrier.

Reave

Seven uses damaged the barrier so that a bit more was left than with Warp; the size of the bar was about equal to the size of the armor bar after 14 Warps. A further seven shots left a sizeable portion of armor left, but little enough to be finished with one more reave. The size of the bar after 14 reaves was noticeably larger than after 14 warps.

To conclude, Reave level 3 seems to do slightly less damage to both armor and barrier compared to Warp level 3. Does Reave have a slightly lower multiplier on barrier and armor, something like 1.95? Or does reave actually have a lower base damage when it does instant damage rather than 40 pts over 4 seconds?

Modifié par cruc1al, 14 avril 2010 - 08:03 .

[tonnactus]

9thLich wrote...

Reave is strong, but imo not for the reasons you stated.
Unlike other powers it benefits from both Biotic Damage 1-5 and Biotic Duration for its own damage.

Six now.(biotic damage)

[cruc1al]

lexicality wrote...

On heavy warp this is 200 points of damage.
Area reave should do 40 points per second over 4 seconds
However, when attacking the scion as I described above  the damage over time does not happen.
Upon visual inspection it appears to do about 1/5 of the damage of warp.

This would imply that only the first 40 points of damage (i.e. the first second of damage, and before applying the 2x multiplier for armour) are applied to the armoured scion.

Your game is bugged or you're seeing things that aren't there. I just compared Reave and Warp against a Scion, using the settings described in my previous post. They did about equal damage to the Scion, just like they did with Harbringer. If I did my counting right, L3 Warp finished the Scion in 30 shots, L3 Reave in 32 shots. I also tested Area Reave, and judging by eye, it did the same amount of damage as L3 Reave, just as it should. There could be video evidence, but I doubt that's required.

[cruc1al]

m14567 wrote...

This is purely from memory but I believe on Insanity all durations are reduced by 20%. I don't recall where I got that information but I must have read it somewhere. Could also be totally false.

EDIT: Durations are reduced by 20%, originally said 80%

You're right, in coalesced.ini there's a line in the insanity difficulty section that says
SquadPowerDurationMultiplier = 0.8, implying duration is decreased by 20%. Perhaps Reave's instant damage suffers from this; it could be calculated by the game as 40 x 4.0 x 0.8 = 128 instead of 160.

Given my testing in the above post, the difference between L3 Warp and Reave doesn't seem to be the same as the difference between 160 and 128. It seems that when the biotic damage and duration upgrades are factored in, the difference becomes less: something like (40 x 1.3) x (4.0 x 0.8 x 1.2) x 2 = 399.36. [(damage) x (duration) x (barrier/armor multi) = total]. Warp would do 160 x 1.3 x 2 = 416. So that's 399.36 versus 416, which pretty much fits right in with my observations earlier.

I'll post back soon with confirmation from testing on Veteran where the duration multiplier is 1.0 in coalesced.ini. EDIT: Yep, confirmed. On Veteran, Reave level 3 clearly did more damage than Warp level 3, because I had the Biotic Duration upgrade (+20% duration). Warp killed harbringer in 7 shots (just), while reave took only 6 shots. On paper, Warp did 416 damage to barrier/armor, while Reave did 40 x 1.3 x 4.0 x 1.2 x 2.0 = 499.2.

Reave's instant damage against armor and barriers is affected by modifiers to duration. Therefore, Reave can do more damage to armor/barrier than Warp, because it gets a +20% damage bonus from the Biotic duration upgrade. However, it does comparatively less damage on Hardcore and Insanity which reduce friendly power duration by 10% and 20%, respectively.

Modifié par cruc1al, 14 avril 2010 - 08:33 .

[lexicality]

cruc1al wrote...
Reave's instant damage against armor and barriers is affected by modifiers to duration. Therefore, Reave can do more damage to armor/barrier than Warp, because it gets a +20% damage bonus from the Biotic duration upgrade. However, it does comparatively less damage on Hardcore and Insanity which reduce friendly power duration by 10% and 20%, respectively.

Good work!

I've just been doing a count of reave V warp on insanity scions.
17 Warp V 21 Reave
Certainly not as much of a difference as my eyes were initially telling me.

[cruc1al]

Glad to be of help :happy: (and I learned a couple of things myself in the process)

I just noticed the pm you sent, but I think this should have cleared up how reave and warp work.

Modifié par cruc1al, 14 avril 2010 - 08:50 .

[baller7345]

lexicality wrote...

SmilingMirror wrote...
Warp is not a humilation kill. It destroys groups of enemies. Most powerful direct damage power in the game.
It gets:
+100% on main target for ragdoll physics, and it recieve newton damage
+100% damage for detonating warp, and a very large radius increase
2x damage against enemies near main target with armor on, if the armor is ripped off they recieve newton damage

Agreed.

According to wiki
http://masseffect.wi...p#Mass_Effect_2
"Warp is a biotic power available to Adepts and Sentinels. The power spawns a mass effect field that damages enemy targets and stops health regeneration. It also detonates any biotic powers affecting the target, such as Pull or Singularity. The detonated target takes double damage from Warp, and all targets within the Detonation Radius receive full damage. If they are also being affected by a biotic power, then they also take double damage."

Therefore a straight warp on an armoured character with no other biotic effects triggered nearby will only produce the standard 1x damage multiplier.
On heavy warp this is 200 points of damage.
Area reave should do 40 points per second over 4 seconds
However, when attacking the scion as I described above  the damage over time does not happen.
Upon visual inspection it appears to do about 1/5 of the damage of warp.

This would imply that only the first 40 points of damage (i.e. the first second of damage, and before applying the 2x multiplier for armour) are applied to the armoured scion.

No warp gets a X2 bonus to armor and barriers just for being warp.  Without a detonation it acts as the only defense stripping power for adepts by having the X2 multiplier.  The info is in the gameplay thread.