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[8erserker]

EDIT: I've left this thread after accepting an interpretation on page 2, but the rest of you can still discuss! smudboy and Il Divo are having a really interesting discussion about whether Shepard's role in ME1 and ME2 and how replaceable/irreplaceable he is, which is pretty much what I intended to argue, even if I didn't communicate it properly.

So I'm looking at Shepard compared to his ME2 squaddies and it just seems like (s)he's a bit of an underdog. You've got:

• A genetically perfected krogan, the most physically powerful, aggressive, and ruthless race in the entire galaxy
  
• A genetically perfected human, who is physically and mentally superior, is a brilliant tactician and a powerful biotic
  
• The most powerful biotic human in the galaxy who is so ruthless that she can single-handedly destroy space stations with ease
  
• An asari Justicar whose very presence can prevent enemy action and who is one of the most powerful biotics in the galaxy (ALTERNATIVELY the an asari who is just as powerful and becomes more powerful each time she kills; who has, as her teammates, the most dangerous people in the galaxy all in one place who all suspect her to be someone else anyway)
  
• A drell reknowned as being the galaxy's single deadliest assassin
  
• Reputedly the most feared bounty hunter and mercenary in the entire galaxy
  
• A thief who is so successful that hardly anybody in the galaxy knows she exists, and those that do don't even know what she looks like

This leaves Garrus, Tali, Legion, Jacob, and Mordin as the only ones not mentioned, which is reasonable as I think Shepard is capable of anything they can do (except for Mordin, but there are a lot of brilliant scientists out there).

So what's so special about Shepard? (S)he's killed hundreds of geth, saved a human colony and consequently made a Spectre, and taken down a Reaper and regarded as the most famous human in the galaxy. But fame hardly means anything. Just seems like Bioware's overdone it with the squadmates. These people seem more capable than Shepard could ever be. Why would Shepard be needed anyway? Is it because (s)he's the one and only person in the entire galaxy who can bring them all together?  Because these people don't even care what Shepard represents. They just care about his battle prowess, which seems to pale in comparison to his squaddies.

It's just a nagging little detail. I don't see how a person known more as a symbol than a badass professional soldier is needed to rally up the most powerful and dangerous people in the galaxy who don't even care what he's a symbol of and who can rip him apart at any time. Because, I mean, Superman's a symbol, but he's also the most powerful hero on Earth.  What makes Shepard so integral?

Modifié par Jorran Khaar, 19 avril 2010 - 01:11 .

[Sky Shadowing]

Circumstance. Nobody else has gone what he's gone through.



It's all a victim of being in the right place at the right time.

[VA_FyreHeart]

You're focusing entirely on combat prowess. There are lots of other qualities that make Shepard special. They say over and over again how they follow him, and even Miranda changes allegiance at the end. Shepard is a brilliant, charismatic leader.



So what if he wouldn't have a prayer hand-to-hand against Grunt - Grunt doesn't have an original thought in his head. He needs Shepard to give him direction.

[8erserker]

Sky Shadowing wrote...

Circumstance. Nobody else has gone what he's gone through.

It's all a victim of being in the right place at the right time.

Ugh. I hate that. I mean, if it's all luck... Luck to me is the combination of opportunity and skill. The more skill you have, the "luckier" you are. And Cerberus was looking for these people anyway. What makes Shepard so integral?

They did the same thing to Master Chief. He's not the brightest, fastest, or strongest Spartan, but for some reason, he's the best because he's the luckiest one. Luck is such a... I don't know... It's like people can luck out on an exam, which people who ace an exam with skill would usually deride.

VA_FyreHeart wrote...

You're focusing entirely on combat prowess. There are lots of other qualities that make Shepard special. They say over and over again how they follow him, and even Miranda changes allegiance at the end. Shepard is a brilliant, charismatic leader.

So what if he wouldn't have a prayer hand-to-hand against Grunt - Grunt doesn't have an original thought in his head. He needs Shepard to give him direction.

Anybody with enough charisma can give Grunt direction. I just don't buy that these people would care about anything Shepard has to offer EXCEPT his combat prowess. Well, maybe except Miranda. Charisma can't win against a fleet of Reapers who are going to brute force their way through the galaxy. Unless Shepard himself is a Reaper who's just indoctrinating people.

Modifié par Jorran Khaar, 14 avril 2010 - 03:56 .

[NICKjnp]

Commander Shepard drinks Tupari... and they want to be like Commander Shepard.

[Lemonwizard]

Why don't you read this thesis I proposed a short while ago.



http://social.biowar...index/1981846/1





It should clear some stuff up for you.

[Vaenier]

Jorran Khaar wrote...

Sky Shadowing wrote...

Circumstance. Nobody else has gone what he's gone through.

It's all a victim of being in the right place at the right time.

Ugh. I hate that. I mean, if it's all luck... Luck to me is the combination of opportunity and skill. The more skill you have, the "luckier" you are. And Cerberus was looking for these people anyway. What makes Shepard so integral?

They did the same thing to Master Chief. He's not the brightest, fastest, or strongest Spartan, but for some reason, he's the best because he's the luckiest one. Luck is such a... I don't know... It's like people can luck out on an exam, which people who ace an exam with skill would usually deride.

Luck is incredibly important. MC is the sole surviving Spartan because he is lucky. Statistical anomaly. He jumped from orbit and survived simply riding a cargo container to the surface. No amount of skill can do that.

His luck doesnt take away from his skills though. Without skill, he would be dead from being shot. It takes both luck and skill to save the galaxy.

[8erserker]

Lemonwizard wrote...

Why don't you read this thesis I proposed a short while ago.

http://social.biowar...index/1981846/1


It should clear some stuff up for you.

I saw that before. Umm... not really, but I did chuckle

[Lemonwizard]

The point I'm trying to say is you have listed everybody else's reputation but completely ignored Commander Shepard's, who has clearly demonstrated him/herself to be one of the biggest badasses in the galaxy.

Modifié par Lemonwizard, 14 avril 2010 - 04:17 .

[8erserker]

I don't think I've ignored him. He's killed hundreds of geth and taken down a Reaper. Not singlehandedly, but he did sort of... mastermind it, I guess? In my game, he also threw his men at the batarian slavers on Torfan. The problem is that, even if you botch a mission like the Thorian colonists, it doesn't do anything to your reputation. That's more of how a player goes through the game. And others are sort of inconsequential. I'll give you that he accomplished what krogan haven't done in generations, though.

But my point is that, however impressive the rest of his feats are, they aren't as impressive as the feats of his squaddies. His charisma, I think, is based on his combat prowess. His ME2 squaddies know this.

Modifié par Jorran Khaar, 14 avril 2010 - 04:35 .

[Garuda One]

OP I am going to hate myself to compare this because firstly I dislike anime to a great extent. I hate Weeaboos and despise that entire franchise and the people that revolve around it. However I still enjoy some of the anime that spawns forth the bowels of Japan.

Best way I can compare Shepard to the way you describe him/her is this, granted this is a fast post because Im on someone else computer visiting and they're talking to someone on the phone.

Have you ever watched Code Geass? The Main Character, granted has an ability to control whoever he wants, which he uses a lot but he also has charismatic qualities as well. Honestly the only things he has going for him minus the eye is he's extremely intelligent and can make most people follow him.

Shepard granted, not as powerful as the people you listed. He/she, in my opinion the only one who could keep such a ragtag team of characters in line and be able to have them fight right next to each other.  Thats Shepards ability, power can be looked at differently and the abilities that revolve around it. In a RPG a healer, though easy to kill and can't go up to a enemy and wack it with there stick has amazing healing abilties to support the warrior. Shepard is a Leader for a reason, that is his abiltiy, thats his strength and his fighting ability maybe to an extent not as powerful as Jack, Samara or Grunt but his manipulation, the way he handles every small and big thing out weights anything any of them could ever do.

Modifié par Garuda One, 14 avril 2010 - 04:41 .

[Skilled Seeker]

Shepard's a hero. A bloody icon!

[eisc0rn]

Shepard's squaddies are inferior to him in ingame combat. Only in sequences they suddenly get the ability to take down 3 YMIR mechs at once.

shepard also single-handely took down the human reaper, because his squaddies can't aim as good as he can.

Modifié par eisc0rn, 14 avril 2010 - 04:47 .

[The Governator]

Experience, charisma and prowess. Shepard may not be better than the elite in the squad on an individual level, but Shepard combines many things in a way that no one else does.



N7: (According to MassWiki) is the highest level of competence of special forces of the Alliance

Profile: (personally I think War Hero is best) that puts Shepard in front of virtually any other agent

Leadership: I think people discount charisma entirely too much. Exhorting people to undertake a suicide mission when their personal motives would lead them elsewhere is not something just anyone or even good leaders can do. It is something only great leaders can do. A great leader must inspire (usually by example) others into action.

[The Governator]

The Renegade Shepard is a bit more difficult for me to answer, though.

[Wildecker]

Shepard was in the right location at the right time and did the right thing. Miranda tells you that she's as perfect as money could make her, but she lacks your ability to inspire. That special something that makes others follow you into the valley of death and through the gates of hell.

Modifié par Wildecker, 14 avril 2010 - 04:50 .

[Lemonwizard]

Jorran Khaar wrote...

I don't think I've ignored him. He's killed hundreds of geth and taken down a Reaper. Not singlehandedly, but he did sort of... mastermind it, I guess? In my game, he also threw his men at the batarian slavers on Torfan. The problem is that, even if you botch a mission like the Thorian colonists, it doesn't do anything to your reputation. That's more of how a player goes through the game. And others are sort of inconsequential. I'll give you that he accomplished what krogan haven't done in generations, though.

But my point is that, however impressive the rest of his feats are, they aren't as impressive as the feats of his squaddies. His charisma, I think, is based on his combat prowess. His ME2 squaddies know this.

Except really, most of the stuff you listed about squaddies is really just a bunch of huff and puff on their background that doesn't even really get showcased that much. Miranda a brilliant tactician? Did you even play the suicide mission?


The first human spectre who singlehandedly held off an entire army of pirates during the Skyllian blitz, defeated hordes of rachni on Noveria, hundreds of Thorian creepers on Feros, took out an entire base full of Geth and Krogan on Virmire, punched his way through the very center of the Geth's defenses on Ilos, fought his way up the citadel tower in zero gravity with magnetic boots, saved the galaxy from utter destruction....



All that stuff could go under Shepard's bullet point. And all that stuff is actual actions, not just reputation hype. You think Commander Shepard doesn't stand out because you're choosing not to look at the things that make him stand out, which are the player's actions with him. And man oh man, does he stand out. Just his beginnings aren't quite as shiny as a few of the other squaddies.

[eisc0rn]

tbh, shepard would win any fight against any squadmember.

[ruleonecardio]

Leader. Period.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Wildecker wrote...
 That special something that makes others follow you into the valley of death and through the gates of hell.

bingo. we has an winner.

[Remus Artega]

Dr. Chackwass pretty much summarized it. He is someone that you can hold onto, the place where you can breath freely... he stabilizes others and that is something you can't learn ...it is in him...he can bear troubles of others and solve them...

Modifié par Remus Artega, 14 avril 2010 - 04:58 .

[JamieCOTC]

Shepard is a natural leader. She has that spark that make people willingly follow her into hell itself. Therefore, her allies ARE her strength.

[eisc0rn]

Remus Artega wrote...

Dr. Chackwass pretty much summarized it. He is someone that you can hold onto, the place where you can breath freely... he stabilizes others and that is something you can't learn ...it is in him...he can bear troubles of others and solve them...

said the guy with the picture of renegade shepard as his avatar.

[DPSSOC]

One thing to note about Miranda is, if you talk to her enough, she flat out admits that despite her extensive engineering and Shepard's less than stellar upbringing Shepard's done more than she ever could.