184 réponses à ce sujet

[smudboy]

Il Divo wrote...
Apologies for the delay. I had some business which I was attending to.

It depends now on what we qualify for non-lesser mind. I could advocate Jacob. He does exist as of Mass Effect 1 and fought on Eden Prime. Would you say he has a non-lesser mind?

Note: For purposes of discussion, I from now on will be using the term 'strong mind' in place of 'non-lesser mind' which I find awkward.

Really can't say.  Jacob's just the average guy, minus the Reaper stuff.  Basically a Kaidan.  Unless they've got some sort of mental fortitude a la Shepard, and the notice of The Chosen'ers.

No, you are misunderstanding me again. The role is already irreplaceable. The role is 'leader to fight the Collectors'. Or more generally 'protagonist' as you said which you agreed cannot be removed without changing the frame-work of the story. By saying the role is replaceable, you are saying we could take out 'leader to fight the Collectors' and still have the same plot.

Right.

So what would be the alternative I ask you? Would Illusive man recruit these squad members himself? Will they even get  along? Are they to decide on how to run missions democratically perhaps? Shall it be 'one party member, one vote'? Or will the sum weight of each vote be proportional based on their total experience?  Cerberus runs its operations in a military style. I know of few military/special forces operations in which everyone has equal say. Now you can argue that we need to make Shepard's character irreplaceable as you pointed out. But 'leader to fight the Collectors'  already is necessary I'm afraid.

ME1's Shepard's character is irreplaceable to being TouchedByVorlons.  This is what the plot states.
In ME2?  Miranda could suffice.  If the plot in ME2 told and/or showed us that Shepard's character was irreplaceable, then we could easily point to it.  But we can't, because it doesn't exist.  There are definitely a few scenes that only Shepard could be involved in, but they're not plot vital.  All we have is Shepard's existence, via The Chosen (TIM & Miranda.)

Why are you assuming that the term qualified is some sort of exclusive feature of Mass Effect 1? It is no different from Mass Effect 2 when compared directly. Whoever fights the Collectors must be qualified to be the 'chosen'. In both games they must also be human.

Qualified in ME1 is whatever Hacket, Udina and Anderson think.
Qualified in ME2 is whatever Miranda and TIM think.

Previously you argued that Kaidan is not qualified to handle becoming a Spectre even though physically he is capable of all the same feats which we see Shepard perform. How is Jacob any different? Physically he may be able to accomplish the task with ease. But how does this qualify him for the role to lead a squad against the Collectors?

He's a guy with anti-Cerberus tendencies.  Seems pretty amicable, too.  Well, save for his opinions on mercenaries and talking Geth.  Other than that, I don't see a problem.

1. I'd like to clear up a misconception you seem to be having. First N7 is not exclusive to Shepard and Anderson. It is not a title. It is a code designating Special Forces and highest level of proficiency. I'd also like to point out that the Alliance is going to choose a candidate regardless of the circumstances. If Shepard did not exist, they would not sit in a corner and cry. They would instead choose the next most qualified candidate whoever it may be. The role is integral. The character is not.

This is for The Chosen argument: whatever Udina, Hacket and Anderson want.

Whereas ME1 Shepard proves his Chosen qualities by the beacon; ME2's Shepard doesn't.  (Again, it's like Spider-man not doing Spider-man things, or having any growth as a person: so why read that particular Spider-man story?)

Sure, it's possible Kaidan could have been The Chosen, and could have survived the beacon, and thus become a Spectre.  The chances just don't add up to something worth considering.

2. No again there is an error here. This is why the Touchedbyvorlorns character is integral. You are still pointing out a character's function to say 'the character is integral'. Shepard is not integral. Is he the only 'strong mind' in the universe? He clearly is not  as Saren demonstrates for example.

Show me someone else of strong mind.  Saren is also irreplaceable as the antagonist, for also being TouchedByVorlons.

I'm sure every story, at first, every character is replaceable.  However, after a certain point in ME1, events happen because of Shepard as the plot moves along.  Shepard becomes the only guy who can stop the Reapers.  Role/character/whatever, due to the qualities of being an active protagonist, etc.

3. Yes, this shows that Liara's role is integral. I do not dispute that.

Why not?   Asari live long lives.  There could be a 1000 year old Asari Prothean researcher with even more knowledge of the Protheans than she.  In fact, she may not even need to mind meld; given their potentially vast knowledge, they could deduce that Ilos would be the location of the Conduit.

Do you see where we could go here?  How much weight do you put into "possibly"?  Anything's possible.  I'd rather work with concrete examples of people actually doing things by measuring their actions.  For example, if we knew there were other Spectres, we could argue them.  But we'd have no evidence of such, and, the existence of Shepard requires The Chosen to come from humans: Udina, Anderson and Hacket.  They also need to be of strong-mind to be a beacon-bearer, twice, and receive the Cipher.

If ME2's argument is because it needs to be a leader and human: Miranda, Jacob.

1. If that is how you truly feel. I cannot argue your feelings.  

Miranda.

2. No, this is wrong. Not 'anyone'. Illusive Man is running this operation Cerberus-style. They are a pro-human organization. They are not going to allow anyone but a human to lead this operation. Miranda and Jacob taking the role we can consider. Garrus or any other alien squad member in Mass Effect 2 is not feasible any more than the Alliance choosing Garrus as their candidate for the first human Spectre. Both games require that the protagonist is human and capable. So not 'anyone'. The Spectre/Squad Leader of both games must be someone who is capable.

Anyone (with proper skills) (who happens to be human) could've done what Shepard did in ME2, to push the plot along.
After a certain point, Shepard (and only Shepard->human) became irreplaceable in ME1.

Modifié par smudboy, 18 avril 2010 - 03:12 .

[Cascadus]

S/he headbutts a krogan. Not just any krogan. S/he headbutts Lt. Worf.

Realize that, and realize Shepard is probably planning to beat up all the Reapers with his/her bare hands. In space.

[Il Divo]

smudboy wrote...

Really can't say.  Jacob's just the average guy, minus the Reaper stuff.  Basically a Kaidan.  Unless they've got some sort of mental fortitude a la Shepard, and the notice of The Chosen'ers.

But regardless, at the very least the notice of the "Choseners" does not make Shepard's character integral. If Shepard does not exist, they will notice another person's reputation and abilities because they want a human in the Spectres. Shepard's qualifications still do not make him unique.

The only question is, does a strong mind make Shepard unique? Or rather, is Shepard the only person with a strong mind?

ME1's Shepard's character is irreplaceable to being TouchedByVorlons.  This is what the plot states.
In ME2?  Miranda could suffice.  If the plot in ME2 told and/or showed us that Shepard's character was irreplaceable, then we could easily point to it.  But we can't, because it doesn't exist.  There are definitely a few scenes that only Shepard could be involved in, but they're not plot vital.  All we have is Shepard's existence, via The Chosen (TIM & Miranda.)

Shepard's character in Mass Effect is only irreplaceable if we can assume that he is the only qualified, able strong-willed human in the Alliance Military. But among N7, is it really likely that Shepard is the only one of this sort? I'm inclined to say no.

Now in Mass Effect 2, it must be shown that the leader who Illusive Man chooses is qualified, combat able, and a human. The only qualifier which Mass Effect 1 has which the sequel does not is 'a strong will'.  

He's a guy with anti-Cerberus tendencies.  Seems pretty amicable, too.  Well, save for his opinions on mercenaries and talking Geth.  Other than that, I don't see a problem.

But you are missing the point here. The argument previously was that Kaidan could not become a Spectre because he wasn't 'qualified' despite him being physically able to do everything which Shepard does.

Jacob may be amicable and he may be physically capable, but that does not make him qualified to lead this mission any more than it makes Kaidan fit to become a Spectre. Illusive Man and the Alliance are not simply looking for any person with 'above average' combat abilities in their respective goals. They are looking for someone qualified to take the role. The only difference is the Alliance is awarding the title 'Spectre' to their chosen. Illusive Man is not. Would that honestly make a difference in whether they need to be qualified? I personally do not think so. So I woud say if Kaidan is not qualified to become a Spectre, then Jacob is not qualified to lead the fight against the Collectors.

Whereas ME1 Shepard proves his Chosen qualities by the beacon; ME2's Shepard doesn't.  (Again, it's like Spider-man not doing Spider-man things, or having any growth as a person: so why read that particular Spider-man story?)

Sure, it's possible Kaidan could have been The Chosen, and could have survived the beacon, and thus become a Spectre.  The chances just don't add up to something worth considering.

So if we consider Mass Effect 2's options to replace the Chosen with, Jacob and Miranda, would we arrive to the same conclusion that Shepard is replaceable? If the issue at  hand is one of qualifications, are either of these two characters qualified to lead the operation with any amount of success? Jacob, like Kaidan, I think could not. Miranda is disputable.

Show me someone else of strong mind.  Saren is also irreplaceable as the antagonist, for also being TouchedByVorlons.

I'm sure every story, at first, every character is replaceable.  However, after a certain point in ME1, events happen because of Shepard as the plot moves along.  Shepard becomes the only guy who can stop the Reapers.  Role/character/whatever, due to the qualities of being an active protagonist, etc.

And this is the problem. Shepard 'becomes' the role. He was not born this way. There is nothing about Shepard that says he is the only who can do this. Any human of strong-mind and great combat experience can take the position. I would not say the two go hand in hand, but neither do I think they are very uncommon in one individual.

I would list most of Mass Effect 2's cast as experienced as well as strong-willed, as an example. Would you say that Thane/Garrus/Samara are not strong-willed as well as capable? My point is not that they could fill Shepard's role in Mass Effect 1 (since they are not human), but that military/combat experience and a strong will are not as often separated as you might think. Given that, Shepard being a 'strong-willed and qualified' human does not make him so special that only he could stop Saren.

Why not?   Asari live long lives.  There could be a 1000 year old Asari Prothean researcher with even more knowledge of the Protheans than she.  In fact, she may not even need to mind meld; given their potentially vast knowledge, they could deduce that Ilos would be the location of the Conduit.

Because she is also Benezia's daughter. In this way Liara is protected, in role and character. Her role is  "Asari Prothean Researcher" . In this, the role is irreplaceable. If there is no Asari Prothean Researcher, then Shepard cannot find Ilos. Is her character protected? That is to say, can only Liara be the Asari Prothean Researcher?
 
I would say yes. She is the daughter of Matriarch Benezia whom Shepard is tracking. Her status as Benezia's daughter means that no one is able to replace her character. It was her status as Benezia's daughter and prothean researcher which first led Shepard to seeking her out.  This is why her character is irreplaceable.  I would have to change the structure of the story or add to it. In which case we do not have the same plot.

To provide a like example, let us consider Luke in Episode V as he trains with Yoda. His role is "protagonist" or more specifically "Jedi Knight fighting against the Empire." Let us consider  if we can remove his character from the story but keep the role. Is this possible? No. Why? Because unless we are considering expanded universe content, we understand that he is the last of the Jedi and his family is strong in the force. I suppose we could replace him with Leia, but that would shift the story around quite a bit.

Anyone (with proper skills) (who happens to be human) could've done what Shepard did in ME2, to push the plot along.
After a certain point, Shepard (and only Shepard->human) became irreplaceable in ME1.

This comes down to the question, can Jacob or Miranda (who are the only two characters you have mentioned to replace Shepard) first be considered qualified? If so, the question becomes can they succeed?

To Jacob, I have already responded. To Miranda? I was under the impression that most who serve under her find her distasteful as a leader.

Modifié par Il Divo, 18 avril 2010 - 04:52 .

[cronshaw8]

Jorran Khaar wrote...
Because these people don't even care what Shepard represents. They
just care about his battle prowess, which seems to pale in comparison to
his squaddies.

So this seems the central point of your argument, and yet you give absolutely no evidence to back this up. And ignore the fact that one of the squadmates you mention, Grunt, continually praises Shepard's battle prowess. Every single bit of gameplay or background info actually completly contridicts your assement. Everything in both games points to Shepard being one of the biggest badasses in the entire galaxy.

[Akrylik]

who here actually remembers when Jacob was the protagonist with his own story arc?



...yea me neither.

[smudboy]

[quote]Il Divo wrote...
But regardless, at the very least the notice of the "Choseners" does not make Shepard's character integral. If Shepard does not exist, they will notice another person's reputation and abilities because they want a human in the Spectres. Shepard's qualifications still do not make him unique.

The only question is, does a strong mind make Shepard unique? Or rather, is Shepard the only person with a strong mind?
[/quote]
The Chosen = exists within the narrative.

I don't really care who else has a strong mind.  I know Shepard has a strong mind, because he's proven it.  At that point, Shepard is integral.

Whereas in ME2, Shepard has proven nothing.  The plot does not need them, and anyone can do what Shepard has done.  Iff the plot required Shepard and only Shepard to advance it, then we could look at it and go "ah, this is why Shepard is important to the plot."  But there are none.
[quote]
Shepard's character in Mass Effect is only irreplaceable if we can assume that he is the only qualified, able strong-willed human in the Alliance Military. But among N7, is it really likely that Shepard is the only one of this sort? I'm inclined to say no.
[/quote]
No, The Chosen determine the existence of Shepard within the plot.  The strong-mind proves Shepard is irreplaceable.
[quote]
Now in Mass Effect 2, it must be shown that the leader who Illusive Man chooses is qualified, combat able, and a human. The only qualifier which Mass Effect 1 has which the sequel does not is 'a strong will'.  
[/quote]
The Chosen'ers reasons could be small or huge.  They only cause existence of The Chosen.
[quote]
But you are missing the point here. The argument previously was that Kaidan could not become a Spectre because he wasn't 'qualified' despite him being physically able to do everything which Shepard does.
[/quote]
Yes, because Shepard exists, they chose the most capable.  If Shepard didn't exist, then sure, Kaidan could be The Chosen.
[quote]
Jacob may be amicable and he may be physically capable, but that does not make him qualified to lead this mission any more than it makes Kaidan fit to become a Spectre. Illusive Man and the Alliance are not simply looking for any person with 'above average' combat abilities in their respective goals. They are looking for someone qualified to take the role. The only difference is the Alliance is awarding the title 'Spectre' to their chosen. Illusive Man is not. Would that honestly make a difference in whether they need to be qualified? I personally do not think so. So I woud say if Kaidan is not qualified to become a Spectre, then Jacob is not qualified to lead the fight against the Collectors.
[/quote]
The Council is awarding the title of Spectre.  The Alliance is merely providing their best.  If Shepard died at this time and Kaidan was selected, the plot of ME1 couldn't continue to Ilos.

Again, being The Chosen causes them to exist within the narrative.  It does not make them irreplaceable.

In ME1, Kaidan would have to prove he is of strong-mind (so the plot could continue.)
In ME2, Jacob and Miranda wouldn't have to prove anything (and the plot would continue.)
[quote]
So if we consider Mass Effect 2's options to replace the Chosen with, Jacob and Miranda, would we arrive to the same conclusion that Shepard is replaceable? If the issue at  hand is one of qualifications, are either of these two characters qualified to lead the operation with any amount of success? Jacob, like Kaidan, I think could not. Miranda is disputable.
[/quote]
If Shepard in ME2 is replaceable, than anyone that replaces Shepard is replaceable.  ME2 Shepard is.  It's really that simple.
[quote]
And this is the problem. Shepard 'becomes' the role. He was not born this way. There is nothing about Shepard that says he is the only who can do this. Any human of strong-mind and great combat experience can take the position. I would not say the two go hand in hand, but neither do I think they are very uncommon in one individual.
[/quote]
Again, The Chosen = existence.  The Chosen must prove they are plot integral.
[quote]
Because she is also Benezia's daughter. In this way Liara is protected, in role and character. Her role is  "Asari Prothean Researcher" . In this, the role is irreplaceable. If there is no Asari Prothean Researcher, then Shepard cannot find Ilos. Is her character protected? That is to say, can only Liara be the Asari Prothean Researcher?
[/quote]
There could be another Asari Prothean Researcher.  Therefore, Liara is not plot integral.  Being Benezia's daughter means nothing to the plot.  Her being a Prothean researches is not plot integral. There could very well be a more knowledgeable, older asari prothean researcher who could know about Ilos without having to scan Shepard's brain.
[quote]
I would say yes. She is the daughter of Matriarch Benezia whom Shepard is tracking. Her status as Benezia's daughter means that no one is able to replace her character. It was her status as Benezia's daughter and prothean researcher which first led Shepard to seeking her out.  This is why her character is irreplaceable.  I would have to change the structure of the story or add to it. In which case we do not have the same plot.
[/quote]
But so what?  We could speculate there is another prothean researcher.  We could totally skip getting Liara and just find that other person.  I'm sure there are more than one other asari prothean researchers.  Definitely older ones that would know about Ilos.  We could leave Liara to rot for all the plot cared.
[quote]
To provide a like example, let us consider Luke in Episode V as he trains with Yoda. His role is "protagonist" or more specifically "Jedi Knight fighting against the Empire." Let us consider  if we can remove his character from the story but keep the role. Is this possible? No. Why? Because unless we are considering expanded universe content, we understand that he is the last of the Jedi and his family is strong in the force. I suppose we could replace him with Leia, but that would shift the story around quite a bit.
[/quote]
If we could replace Luke with Leia, then he is not integral to the plot.
[quote]
This comes down to the question, can Jacob or Miranda (who are the only two characters you have mentioned to replace Shepard) first be considered qualified? If so, the question becomes can they succeed?
[/quote]
It is not a matter of success, but of being plot integral.  You could easily put Zaeed in there too.
[quote]
To Jacob, I have already responded. To Miranda? I was under the impression that most who serve under her find her distasteful as a leader.
[/quote]
Alas.

[Il Divo]

smudboy wrote...

The Chosen = exists within the narrative.

I don't really care who else has a strong mind.  I know Shepard has a strong mind, because he's proven it.  At that point, Shepard is integral.

Whereas in ME2, Shepard has proven nothing.  The plot does not need them, and anyone can do what Shepard has done.  Iff the plot required Shepard and only Shepard to advance it, then we could look at it and go "ah, this is why Shepard is important to the plot."  But there are none.

No, again you confuse integral. "Qualified and strong mind" are the requirements for the role of touchedbyvorlorns character. Shepard is qualified and has a strong mind. He meets the requirements. I would expect the same from most N7.

No, The Chosen determine the existence of Shepard within the plot.  The strong-mind proves Shepard is irreplaceable.

No, the strong mind represents the requirement of the touchedbyvorlorns character so the plot can continue. If Shepard is irreplaceable, it would have to be assumed that he is the only human with a strong mind, both of which are integral to the plot.

Yes, because Shepard exists, they chose the most capable.  If Shepard didn't exist, then sure, Kaidan could be The Chosen.

So is this any different? Shepard existed in Mass Effect 2. He is clearly the most capable. However, he dies. The question merely becomes: is it worth the time/money/effort to resurrect Shepard in comparison to simply finding the next best human (of which you nominated Jacob and Miranda)? I would say Illusive Man thought so. That alone is enough.

The Council is awarding the title of Spectre.  The Alliance is merely providing their best.  If Shepard died at this time and Kaidan was selected, the plot of ME1 couldn't continue to Ilos.

Again, being The Chosen causes them to exist within the narrative.  It does not make them irreplaceable.

In ME1, Kaidan would have to prove he is of strong-mind (so the plot could continue.)
In ME2, Jacob and Miranda wouldn't have to prove anything (and the plot would continue.)

Except that this confuses the way we are thinking of plot. A plot must follow a clear progression

A-->B-->C-->D.

If we must either add or change events around, then we are not dealing with the same plot as the OP asked for.
Let's assume point A is that Illusive Man must choose a candidate to lead the fight against the Collectors (because as you admitted, we need a leader to fight the Collectors). Illusive Man is looking for someone of qualification.

You have proposed Jacob and Miranda to fill the capacity of that role. If no one is able to fill the role of being chosen as candidate, then this plot-line will be no more. It will have ceased to be; gone to meet its maker.
If this is the case, a new plot-line will result from this.

However, there is one thing that has recently crossed my mind and I am curious as to your position. 'Shepard is replaceable' is your argument and you've illustrated how any capable individual can fulfill this capacity. But was not Shepard's defeat of Sovereign/his death what originally moved the Collectors to action against humanity? In other words, if Shepard did not exist, we would not have a plot at all because the Collectors would not be targeting humanity.

If Shepard in ME2 is replaceable, than anyone that replaces Shepard is replaceable.  ME2 Shepard is.  It's really that simple.

Again, this presupposes that they are qualified to handle the role. I don't picture Conrad Verner successfully fighting the Collectors.

There could be another Asari Prothean Researcher.  Therefore, Liara is not plot integral.  Being Benezia's daughter means nothing to the plot.  Her being a Prothean researches is not plot integral. There could very well be a more knowledgeable, older asari prothean researcher who could know about Ilos without having to scan Shepard's brain.

The Prothean Researcher is plot integral. Or rather, the role is "someone to identify the location of the finale." Why is Liara plot integral? She is Benezia's daughter. You are sent on a mission to find Benezia's daughter. To alter, cut, or add any element to a plot is to change it so that it is not the same plot. The OP I beleive is not asking for a new plot-line.

But so what?  We could speculate there is another prothean researcher.  We could totally skip getting Liara and just find that other person.  I'm sure there are more than one other asari prothean researchers.  Definitely older ones that would know about Ilos.  We could leave Liara to rot for all the plot cared.

She is Benezia's daughter whom we know about. We are sent on a mission to find her because she is Benezia's daughter. She also happens to be a Prothean Researcher. For Liara to be replaceable, we must be able to show that there is another of Benezia's daughters who is a Prothean Researcher, or who knows the location of Ilos. If not, the roles would have to be separated which would add to the plot. To change the plot is not to be dealing with the same plot, hence why Liara is irreplaceable 

If we could replace Luke with Leia, then he is not integral to the plot.

And my point is that he cannot be replaced. If Luke is removed and Leia takes his place, events change hence we have a different plot. Obi-Wan does not get a transmission from Leia, they do not go to Alderaan. If removing a character results in a different main plot, then the character is irreplaceable to that plot.

It is not a matter of success, but of being plot integral.  You could easily put Zaeed in there too.

If a character cannot succeed, then this changes the main plot. If Shepard is the only one we know who possesses the combat ability to succeed, then he is plot integral, regardless of whether he is touchedbyvorlorns for the purposes of Mass Effect 2.

I suppose we could put Zaeed up for consideration, although I'm inclined to say that Illusive Man might not want to put someone in charge whose loyalty goes to the highest bidder and one with such a tricky past. Shepard has personal motivation as he dealt with the Reapers and was murdered by the Collectors. Zaeed is motivated by money, something many can provide.

Modifié par Il Divo, 19 avril 2010 - 02:39 .

[smudboy]

Il Divo wrote...
No, again you confuse integral. "Qualified and strong mind" are the requirements for the role of touchedbyvorlorns character. Shepard is qualified and has a strong mind. He meets the requirements. I would expect the same from most N7.

Examples of ersatz N7 who fits those qualities.  Answer: none.

No, the strong mind represents the requirement of the touchedbyvorlorns character so the plot can continue. If Shepard is irreplaceable, it would have to be assumed that he is the only human with a strong mind, both of which are integral to the plot.

Exactly.  Again, provide the substitute.

So is this any different? Shepard existed in Mass Effect 2. He is clearly the most capable. However, he dies. The question merely becomes: is it worth the time/money/effort to resurrect Shepard in comparison to simply finding the next best human (of which you nominated Jacob and Miranda)? I would say Illusive Man thought so. That alone is enough.

That only counts as existence.  As being The Chosen.
The Chosen must prove themelves to being plot integral.
ME1 Shepard does this.
ME2 Shepard does not.

However, there is one thing that has recently crossed my mind and I am curious as to your position. 'Shepard is replaceable' is your argument and you've illustrated how any capable individual can fulfill this capacity. But was not Shepard's defeat of Sovereign/his death what originally moved the Collectors to action against humanity? In other words, if Shepard did not exist, we would not have a plot at all because the Collectors would not be targeting humanity.

This is not the argument for the entirety of a sequel.  This is the argument for the Shepard character in ME2.  Which you've yet to show me is plot integral.

Again, this presupposes that they are qualified to handle the role. I don't picture Conrad Verner successfully fighting the Collectors.

Verner would be more than qualified.  Alibi in a very odd, funny way.  He seems genuinely motivated.

The Prothean Researcher is plot integral. Or rather, the role is "someone to identify the location of the finale." Why is Liara plot integral? She is Benezia's daughter. You are sent on a mission to find Benezia's daughter. To alter, cut, or add any element to a plot is to change it so that it is not the same plot. The OP I beleive is not asking for a new plot-line.

Except that mission point is to get Liara so she can get to Ilos.  If that's all, we can eliminate Liara, and simply get another better, older asari researcher.  Which we definitely know there are more of.

She is Benezia's daughter whom we know about. We are sent on a mission to find her because she is Benezia's daughter. She also happens to be a Prothean Researcher. For Liara to be replaceable, we must be able to show that there is another of Benezia's daughters who is a Prothean Researcher, or who knows the location of Ilos. If not, the roles would have to be separated which would add to the plot. To change the plot is not to be dealing with the same plot, hence why Liara is irreplaceable 

No, that's merely a lead by the Council you could take.  Within the confines of the ending, we're not changing the plot.  Again, if the utility of the plot device could exist, we could suppose we could use it.

And my point is that he cannot be replaced. If Luke is removed and Leia takes his place, events change hence we have a different plot. Obi-Wan does not get a transmission from Leia, they do not go to Alderaan. If removing a character results in a different main plot, then the character is irreplaceable to that plot.

If Leia can do the same things Luke can, then they are replaceable.

If a character cannot succeed, then this changes the main plot. If Shepard is the only one we know who possesses the combat ability to succeed, then he is plot integral, regardless of whether he is touchedbyvorlorns for the purposes of Mass Effect 2.

Succeed at what?  Shepard does not show any plot Shepard-only combat ability.

I suppose we could put Zaeed up for consideration, although I'm inclined to say that Illusive Man might not want to put someone in charge whose loyalty goes to the highest bidder and one with such a tricky past. Shepard has personal motivation as he dealt with the Reapers and was murdered by the Collectors. Zaeed is motivated by money, something many can provide.

Motivation is irrelevant to the plot.  It's good for characterization, though.  Zaee'd more than capable.

[exterminator_]

Guys its simple you dont make something in your life
you have everything waiting for you hehehe

You command - you can have every cheek you like

and you impose your rule (thats me hehe=renegade)

What is better from this ???? :P

Modifié par exterminator , 19 avril 2010 - 07:39 .

[exterminator_]

And the funny thing is ... the illusive man hahaha



He just gave you all that power without knowing the cost



CAUSE I WILL KILL HIM - SKIN HIM ALIVE AND I WILL TAKE CERBERUS FOR MYSELF !!!!



hahahahahahhaha !!!!



(thats why i save the stupid collector ship)

[CommanderAdriel]

As Miranda says in the beginning"(s)He's a hero, a bloody icon.

Modifié par CommanderAdriel, 19 avril 2010 - 07:42 .

[David Knight]

Greetings, everyone. I'll throw my hat into the ring. Some of you are correct; in ME1, Shepard is intregal to the plot because of the beacon and his strength of will. In ME2, there doesn't, at first glance, seem to be much reason to keep Shepard around.

Look at his squadmates; my Shepard will never be a biotic, not even close to one as powerful as Jack or Samara. Garrus has incredibly sharp eyes. Tali is a mechanical genius, Mordin a scientific one. He'll never match Grunt's brute power and strength. Miranda is (supposedly... we may have dismissed this claim ) a tactical brainiac. He'll never be a pilot like Joker... the list goes on and on.

What, then, makes him so special?

Let's look at one of the greatest stories ever told, The Lord of the Rings. Frodo is not a swordsman. He doesn't have Legolas' agility or skill with bow and arrow. Obviously, he can't compete with Gandalf. Hell, any fairly skilled warrior, at first glance, would be a better choice to ferry the Ring to Mount Doom.

Frodo, however, has an inner light that prevents him from being susceptible to the Ring's influence. He is intregal to the plot in this manner. I'm using this metaphor to simply point out that a character's defining trait is not always easily seen, like combat prowess (although many NPC's claim that Shepard is a combat god... open to interpretation. Depending on your Shepard and the difficulty, etc. etc.).

Shepard has no one talent that makes him special or better than anyone else. Therefore, I have narrowed down two factors that make him the sole protagonist of the ME trilogy.

The first is quite simply luck. Think about it. How many stories and movies are there that have the hero winning due to luck rather than skill? Did Luke and co. really sneak aboard the Empire's most advanced weapon and rescue a princess from within its depths on skill? Seriously?

It may not sound dramatic, but the fact is that luck plays a huge role in stories, specifically a character's accomplishments. In the Halo series, the Master Chief is neither the strongest nor the fastest nor the best at hand-to-hand or sniper combat. He is the luckiest, and because of this he ends up saving the universe like all heroes do.

So... Shepard's rise to heroism had a lot to do with luck. He was, quite simply put, the one there at the time. Fate use what was available. There may be someone in the galaxy better trained to kill Saren. That's too bad; luck has dictated that Shepard get all the glory.

Next: I think some of you are underestimating the power of leadership.

Adolf Hitler could have ruled the world if he had military genius mixed in with his political genius. He inspired the German people like very few tyrants have ever done before and was responsible for so much death and destruction it's hard to comprehend. What made Hitler special? He wasn't a pro at sniping or a brilliant professor. He simply had that inner fire, that special spark inside of him that made others willing to go to hell and back for him.

Not to bring any religious fighting to this discussion, but Jesus and Mohammed Ali (if you swing that way and believe they existed) have inspired millions of people with their words, and through them, influenced world events beyond their deaths. Regardless of whether or not you believe in the miracles presented in the Bible and other religious texts, you cannot deny the ability to inspire others that was present within them.

Thomas Jefferson and George Washington inspired a revolution, one that would birth a country that would be the center of power in the world decades later.

Really, look at history. It is shaped by leaders. And leaders are not people with special abilities or skills at all, really. They just know how to talk really well. They have something within them, a presence that makes people want to follow them.

In the game, Shepard obviously has this trait, just as the protagonist does in several other Bioware games (KotOR, for instance). Do not underestimate the power of leadership. If the greatest threat to galactic civilization was on its way, I'd pay a ton of money to bring said leader back from the dead, too.

He was responsible for the halting of the Reaper invasion. That's pretty big no matter which way you look at it. As Miranda stated very concisely, he is a hero, an icon. People will follow him the way they could never do with TIM or Miranda or Jacob. Understand that TIM was looking ahead when he rezzed Shepard. Sure, someone else could have taken out the Collector base, but then what? Could that same person rally the galaxy, as Shepard is likely to do in ME3? Probably not.

Add in the fact that Shepard holds the ability to understand Prothean technology and you have one hell of a piece of equipment. At the time of Shepard's death, TIM had two choices. A) Bring back the proven candidate, the one who the Reapers fear or respect, the one whom the galaxy will follow if asked, or start from scratch and try to find someone else up to par with Shepard's usefullness.

In conclusion, Shepard is special because he got lucky. He was in the right place at the right time to have a series of events happen to him that allowed his leadership to flourish and his fame to grow through his accomplishments. Could someone else have taken his place? Of course. I doubt Shepard is the only leader out there. But again, tough luck. Shepard was there. The other person wasn't.

Modifié par David Knight, 23 avril 2010 - 05:44 .

[Wrex4Prez]

Someone said that Shep was more vital to ME1's plot but less vital to ME2's.



Actually, I think that is backwards. Here's why.



Shep coming into the role of Spectre was in large part a result of events prior to our beginning. And it was also in large part due to circumstance. Yes, Nihlus said the council had been watching him for years, but is that to the exclusion of all other humans? Anderson backed him, and then he played an information network laid out before him to get info supporting Saren's rogue status. Knowing the potential political backlash of a rogue spectre, the council knew it needed a new spectre, rather than some other force en masse, to track down Saren.



His actions then became a key part, but, importantly, not until after he became spectre.



It's not much different than real life. Sure, you have to have talent to do most things, but you also have to face the right circumstances that match seemlessly with your talents.



Based on what occurred in ME1, and Shep's role as soldier and leader in taking down Sovereign, he becomes integral to the chosen path of the reapers.



It's not all that unlike (might seem like a bad comparison) Harry Potter. He was the "Chosen One" because he was "chosen" by his enemy to fulfill that role. The Reapers, acting through the Collectors, became obsessed with Shepard. His skill and perhaps more importantly his resistance to indoctrination made them track him down. So he became vital based on his enemy's choice.



Substantively, his leadership ability is vital. All follow him. He has that intangible of leadership that is necessary in building the galactic (large-scale) alliances that will inevitably be necessary in ultimately (hopefully) defeating the Reapers.

[MrNose]

There are three things I see (I'm in agreement to a large extent with Wrex4Prez).



1) Harbinger is clearly obsessed with Shepard, meaning that the Reapers have chosen him.

2) Throughout the entirety of ME2 it's stated that Shepard is basically the biggest badass in the Galaxy. Grunt considers him an unmatchable battlemaster, and Cerberus believe's that he's without an equal.

3) Leadership. As Miranda says, he has that quality that makes people want to follow him. Highly useful when he'll probably have to rally all of the Galaxy to his side in ME3, and when he needs to collect a team in ME2. Note that his leadership ability is linked to your team's (and your own) survival in the form of loyalty missions and your choices in the suicide mission.



S/He is without parallel. There is a reason that Ashley calls Shepard a god.

[smudboy]

David Knight wrote...
Add in the fact that Shepard holds the ability to understand Prothean technology and you have one hell of a piece of equipment. At the time of Shepard's death, TIM had two choices. A) Bring back the proven candidate, the one who the Reapers fear or respect, the one whom the galaxy will follow if asked, or start from scratch and try to find someone else up to par with Shepard's usefullness.

In conclusion, Shepard is special because he got lucky. He was in the right place at the right time to have a series of events happen to him that allowed his leadership to flourish and his fame to grow through his accomplishments. Could someone else have taken his place? Of course. I doubt Shepard is the only leader out there. But again, tough luck. Shepard was there. The other person wasn't.

While I like your premise, in all stories, everyone gets caught up in events, being in a certain place at a certain time.

However, an integral plot character can only exist within the confines of the plot; that is, to allow it to progress.  ME1 Shepard is as such.

In ME2, it could literally be anyone.  Shepard does not exhibit any heroic or leadership qualities.  The side-characters all join at the drop of a hat, regardless of their background.

ME2 should have built upon Shepard's plot integraity: focus on the Prothean visions and Cipher, or some other quality.  Your A) point supposes the Reapers fear and respect Shepard.  We have no idea why Harbinger is after Shepard, let alone, fearing or respecting them.  Shepard exists within the plot only because TIM and Miranda said so.  Shepard does not prove himself as integral to the plot in ME2, whereas in ME1 he does.

[smudboy]

Wrex4Prez wrote...

Similar to the previous poster, all characters exist by "getting caught up in events."

In ME1, Shepard is The Chosen because of Udina, Anderson and Hacket choosing the best qualified to go on the Eden Prime mission, which in turn is setting him up for Spectre induction.  The Chosen status implies existence in the plot.  Shepard proves his plot relevance by being "of non-lesser mind" by accepting the Prothean visions and Cypher, and melding with Liara to advance the plot.

In ME2, The Chosen is defined by TIM and Miranda.  Shepard exists within the plot, but is not plot integral to it, because he never proves his relevance to it; the actions Shepard takes could literally be done by anyone.  His quality of heroic leadership or whatnot is never once shown.

[smudboy]

MrNose wrote...

There are three things I see (I'm in agreement to a large extent with Wrex4Prez).

1) Harbinger is clearly obsessed with Shepard, meaning that the Reapers have chosen him.
2) Throughout the entirety of ME2 it's stated that Shepard is basically the biggest badass in the Galaxy. Grunt considers him an unmatchable battlemaster, and Cerberus believe's that he's without an equal.
3) Leadership. As Miranda says, he has that quality that makes people want to follow him. Highly useful when he'll probably have to rally all of the Galaxy to his side in ME3, and when he needs to collect a team in ME2. Note that his leadership ability is linked to your team's (and your own) survival in the form of loyalty missions and your choices in the suicide mission.

S/He is without parallel. There is a reason that Ashley calls Shepard a god.

1) This is irrelevant to the plot.  Anyone can have any opinion or motivation to a character. If it doesn't advance the plot, it's just words.
2) Ditto with 1)
3) Ditto with 1).  We never see his leadership being plot relevant.  Now if Miranda's speech allows the plot to advance, then okay, we can say that then Miranda's speech is plot relevant.

The only possible connection I can see with 1) is that Harbinger supposedly goes after Shepard on Horizon, because of a tip that one of his colleagues would be there.  But that thred goes nowhere.  Regardless, Shepard, via orders from TIM, would've gone there anyway.

[Wrex4Prez]

smudboy wrote...

Wrex4Prez wrote...

Similar to the previous poster, all characters exist by "getting caught up in events."

In ME1, Shepard is The Chosen because of Udina, Anderson and Hacket choosing the best qualified to go on the Eden Prime mission, which in turn is setting him up for Spectre induction.  The Chosen status implies existence in the plot.  Shepard proves his plot relevance by being "of non-lesser mind" by accepting the Prothean visions and Cypher, and melding with Liara to advance the plot.

In ME2, The Chosen is defined by TIM and Miranda.  Shepard exists within the plot, but is not plot integral to it, because he never proves his relevance to it; the actions Shepard takes could literally be done by anyone.  His quality of heroic leadership or whatnot is never once shown.

I see your point, but I disagree.  Shepard is vital to the plot.  Without him, who builds this team?  Tali isn't on board for obvious reasons.  Grunt isn't on board.  Legion isn't on board.  Jack isn't on board (Miranda or Jacob could have led Jack?).  Garrus isn't on board.  All important characters.

Additionally, you leave out an important part of the Freedom's Progress arc.  The Alliance is there because they have information Shephard will be there.  The Collectors show up because a former Shep squadie is there.  Thus, all those things happen because of the Collectors/Reapers obsession with Shep.  They don't happen without it.  In fact, without Shep defeating Sovereign, the entire ME2 doesn't exist.  Remember, nobody else was buying into the Reaper theory.  Everyone thought Ilos was a red herring.  If Shep wasn't there, the Reapers win, and the cycle continues.

For breaking that cycle, the Collectors/Reapers then become obsessed with Shep, and decide to build a "trophy" Reaper of humans.

Granted, it seems a large part of ME2 is merely to set the table for ME3, where presumably many questions are answered, including the real importance of Shep.  But to say he's not integral to the plot is to take a very short view of the entire story arc.

[smudboy]

Wrex4Prez wrote...
I see your point, but I disagree.  Shepard is vital to the plot.  Without him, who builds this team?  Tali isn't on board for obvious reasons.  Grunt isn't on board.  Legion isn't on board.  Jack isn't on board (Miranda or Jacob could have led Jack?).  Garrus isn't on board.  All important characters.

Please show how Shepard is vital to the plot.

The idea behind a story is that characters are just people, who then get caught up in situations and then become vital to that plot for existing.  Shepard exists at the start, but never proves his relevance to the plot.

Tali gets saved twice simply by being at the right place at the right time, twice.  She may not like Cerberus, but she will accept Cerberus' help.

Why wouldn't Grunt be on board?  Why would he care who births him?  He's a stranger in any respect.

Legion wouldn't exist without anyone coming to save them (meaning whoever the player character is at the time.)  If chosen to be activated, there's a good chance Legion would join since they both "oppose the heretics, oppose the old machines."  Although you could argue Legion's only after Shepard for their perspective.

Jack has no other option.

Garrus also has no other option.

All characters are quite unimportant, save Mordin.

Additionally, you leave out an important part of the Freedom's Progress arc.  The Alliance is there because they have information Shephard will be there.  The Collectors show up because a former Shep squadie is there.  Thus, all those things happen because of the Collectors/Reapers obsession with Shep.  They don't happen without it.  In fact, without Shep defeating Sovereign, the entire ME2 doesn't exist.  Remember, nobody else was buying into the Reaper theory.  Everyone thought Ilos was a red herring.  If Shep wasn't there, the Reapers win, and the cycle continues.

You mean Horizon.  As I stated before, it is a point of contingency, but the thread goes nowhere.  You're also still supposing the Collectors are obsessed with Shepard.

The argument that due to Shepard's notoriety, ME2 wouldn't exist.  Considering Shepard's toast at the beginning of ME2, that argument becomes irrelevant.  Collectors still go around the galaxy for two years taking humans.

Your statements are arguing for ME1, not ME2.  Which I agree: Shepard in ME1 is plot integral.  Shepard in ME2 is not.

For breaking that cycle, the Collectors/Reapers then become obsessed with Shep, and decide to build a "trophy" Reaper of humans.

Speculation.  No one knows why.

Granted, it seems a large part of ME2 is merely to set the table for ME3, where presumably many questions are answered, including the real importance of Shep.  But to say he's not integral to the plot is to take a very short view of the entire story arc.

I'm clearly looking at ME2.  I'm not speculating ME3.

I say Shepard's not integral to the plot because there's no evidence to support integrity.  Since we're under the belief that all characters in all stories just get caught up in events, there has to be something "Shepard-like" he is or does that makes the plot exist.  That removing them from the plot at a certain time would cause the plot to change/be something else.  This is understood by the type of a protagonist, how active or passive that protagonist is.  In ME1, Shepard is an active protagonist due to his motivation and choices within the narrative.  In ME2, Shepard is passive, because he simply exists within it, and has no control over their actions and thus has no personal involvement.

[David Knight]

Since I'm working on figuring out how to use quotes, I'll just respond directly.

Because of ME1 Shepard doesn't have to prove anything. He's already a leader and a hero and an icon because of what did in ME1. He doesn't need to prove his leadership in this one. It's already there.

Also, understand that this is a game, an RPG, and Shepard's facial expressions and voice acting is pretty generic (in my opinion). This is likely because Bioware wanted to keep Shepard generic for people to build upon with their imaginations. As such, whether or not your Shepard has leadership ability is determined by you.

It all depends on your Shepard's mindframe, or how you imagine it. When you meet Thane, for instance, he either joins Shepard because of that spark, or he's just feeling like blowing up a huge freakin' base. All of it is open to interpretation.

However, I highly doubt Tali (who may or may not be crucial to your mission, which is, I think, a clever move by the developers) or Garrus (again, could be important to the Suicide Mission) or Legion would be onbard with anyone other than Shepard. Again, because of his actions in ME1, he's already a leader.

He doesn't have to prove anything to anyone. He already died because the Reapers thought he was a really big pain-in-the-ass. TIM brought him back (and I'm pretty sure Miranda's dialogue was filling the player in about their decision, not alluding to the idea that she was involved in the decision making process, as I'm pretty sure TIM is her superior) because of what he had already accomplished and what he could accomplish in the future. Yes, it was a massive leap of faith on TIM's part... but, being the leader of such an organization as Cerberus, you'd probably get to be able to read people well to keep your job.

And, although it doesn't advance the thread, really; I don't think 4 billion credits is too much of a worry to Cerberus... but that's just my opinion. In stories where we have shadowy figures such as this, said shadows usually have multiple plans in the works, hoping for the best but planning (even expecting) the worst.

[smudboy]

David Knight wrote...
Because of ME1 Shepard doesn't have to prove anything. He's already a leader and a hero and an icon because of what did in ME1. He doesn't need to prove his leadership in this one. It's already there.

I apologize for unclarity if I'm using the wrong term.  When I say Shepard is integral or has "proven" himself to the plot of ME1, I mean not to people per se (for those people may be plot integral.)  I mean that Shepard has exhibited something "Shepard-like", where at that point (Prothean Visions, Cipher), Shepard and only Shepard could allow the plot to continue (Ilos.)

It is like removing a heart from a person.  If we remove Shepard from ME1 after a certain point, the plot can't continue.  Which is why in ME2, Shepard isn't plot integral, because if we remove him from the plot, the plot can go on just fine.

Also, understand that this is a game, an RPG, and Shepard's facial expressions and voice acting is pretty generic (in my opinion). This is likely because Bioware wanted to keep Shepard generic for people to build upon with their imaginations. As such, whether or not your Shepard has leadership ability is determined by you.

The nature and function of a static protagonist is fine, as all protagonists in video games are simply walking plot devices.  However, due to the variety of choices exhibited by BioWare games, I see no reason as to why Shepard cannot have their own arc (after all, if side characters can, the protagonist can and should.)

It all depends on your Shepard's mindframe, or how you imagine it. When you meet Thane, for instance, he either joins Shepard because of that spark, or he's just feeling like blowing up a huge freakin' base. All of it is open to interpretation.

Thane joins because you essentially saved his life, and, he's going to die anyway.  Whether he can talk about Shepard's notoriety or not is irrelevant to that and the plot.

However, I highly doubt Tali (who may or may not be crucial to your mission, which is, I think, a clever move by the developers) or Garrus (again, could be important to the Suicide Mission) or Legion would be onbard with anyone other than Shepard. Again, because of his actions in ME1, he's already a leader.

Again like Thane, whether they join or not is plot irrelevant, although having them join to someone not-Shepard is arguable.

He doesn't have to prove anything to anyone. He already died because the Reapers thought he was a really big pain-in-the-ass. TIM brought him back (and I'm pretty sure Miranda's dialogue was filling the player in about their decision, not alluding to the idea that she was involved in the decision making process, as I'm pretty sure TIM is her superior) because of what he had already accomplished and what he could accomplish in the future. Yes, it was a massive leap of faith on TIM's part... but, being the leader of such an organization as Cerberus, you'd probably get to be able to read people well to keep your job.

This isn't about Shepard proving himself to a particular character.  His notoritey grants him The Chosen status to exist through TIM/Miranda, the same in ME1.  The difference is Shepard was needed for the plot to exist in ME1 (Prothean Visions/Cipher/Ilos), thus "proving" themselves to the plot.

What I'm saying, is, looking back, I cannot see any action, that could not be done by another character, that Shepard does.  Which means Shepard is replaceable.

[Wrex4Prez]

smudboy wrote...

Wrex4Prez wrote...
I see your point, but I disagree.  Shepard is vital to the plot.  Without him, who builds this team?  Tali isn't on board for obvious reasons.  Grunt isn't on board.  Legion isn't on board.  Jack isn't on board (Miranda or Jacob could have led Jack?).  Garrus isn't on board.  All important characters.

Please show how Shepard is vital to the plot.

The idea behind a story is that characters are just people, who then get caught up in situations and then become vital to that plot for existing.  Shepard exists at the start, but never proves his relevance to the plot.

Tali gets saved twice simply by being at the right place at the right time, twice.  She may not like Cerberus, but she will accept Cerberus' help.

Why wouldn't Grunt be on board?  Why would he care who births him?  He's a stranger in any respect.

Legion wouldn't exist without anyone coming to save them (meaning whoever the player character is at the time.)  If chosen to be activated, there's a good chance Legion would join since they both "oppose the heretics, oppose the old machines."  Although you could argue Legion's only after Shepard for their perspective.

Jack has no other option.

Garrus also has no other option.

All characters are quite unimportant, save Mordin.

Additionally, you leave out an important part of the Freedom's Progress arc.  The Alliance is there because they have information Shephard will be there.  The Collectors show up because a former Shep squadie is there.  Thus, all those things happen because of the Collectors/Reapers obsession with Shep.  They don't happen without it.  In fact, without Shep defeating Sovereign, the entire ME2 doesn't exist.  Remember, nobody else was buying into the Reaper theory.  Everyone thought Ilos was a red herring.  If Shep wasn't there, the Reapers win, and the cycle continues.

You mean Horizon.  As I stated before, it is a point of contingency, but the thread goes nowhere.  You're also still supposing the Collectors are obsessed with Shepard.

The argument that due to Shepard's notoriety, ME2 wouldn't exist.  Considering Shepard's toast at the beginning of ME2, that argument becomes irrelevant.  Collectors still go around the galaxy for two years taking humans.

Your statements are arguing for ME1, not ME2.  Which I agree: Shepard in ME1 is plot integral.  Shepard in ME2 is not.

For breaking that cycle, the Collectors/Reapers then become obsessed with Shep, and decide to build a "trophy" Reaper of humans.

Speculation.  No one knows why.

Granted, it seems a large part of ME2 is merely to set the table for ME3, where presumably many questions are answered, including the real importance of Shep.  But to say he's not integral to the plot is to take a very short view of the entire story arc.

I'm clearly looking at ME2.  I'm not speculating ME3.

I say Shepard's not integral to the plot because there's no evidence to support integrity.  Since we're under the belief that all characters in all stories just get caught up in events, there has to be something "Shepard-like" he is or does that makes the plot exist.  That removing them from the plot at a certain time would cause the plot to change/be something else.  This is understood by the type of a protagonist, how active or passive that protagonist is.  In ME1, Shepard is an active protagonist due to his motivation and choices within the narrative.  In ME2, Shepard is passive, because he simply exists within it, and has no control over their actions and thus has no personal involvement.

So, if a tree falls in the woods and nobody's around, does it make a sound?

I've heard the arguments on that thread in a number of different connotations.  I've always taken the view that, no, it doesn't make a sound.  I take the philosophical view that we are only important through others.  If we go through our lives and never interact with anyone, we don't exist. 

Put in the Mass Effect context, this an important view.  Because in ME2, Shepard quite literally doesn't exist except through the choices of others.  Does that make him less integral to the plot of ME2?  NO!  Emphatically not.  In fact, it makes him MORE integral.  The universe has chosen him.  TIM.  The Reapers.  The Collectors.  Tali.  Liara.  Ashley Williams.  Wrex.  The Rachni Queen (depending on choice).  Many others.  They understand and acknowledge what he has done and put faith in what he will do.  And all those alliances are integral to the overall story arc.

And again, just limited to ME2, the whole thing doesn't take place without him.  TIM, the Reapers, the Collectors...they all made him important enough to revice and/or follow around.  Legion, too.  So who could we stick in there and replace Shepard and still have the same story?

Could someone else theoretically defeat the Collectors?  Maybe.  But it becomes a different story altogether.

So, we disagree, and that's fine.  You've got your view of story/storytelling, and I've got mine.  Cheers to you.

[Wrex4Prez]

It is like removing a heart from a person.  If we remove Shepard from ME1 after a certain point, the plot can't continue.  Which is why in ME2, Shepard isn't plot integral, because if we remove him from the plot, the plot can go on just fine.

But you don't get the Reaper IFF without Shep because Legion doesn't even got to the derelict reaper without him.  Nor does he snipe those husks (which, yeah, you could have dealt with without the help).  Nor does he ensure the doors to the Core Room remain open.

Without the Reaper IFF, no Collector Base.

I see what you're saying a little bit more now, but I still think the methodology is flawed by viewing ME2 in isolation.

Modifié par Wrex4Prez, 23 avril 2010 - 03:38 .

[smudboy]

Wrex4Prez wrote...
So, if a tree falls in the woods and nobody's around, does it make a sound?

Yes, oscillation is real.

I've heard the arguments on that thread in a number of different connotations.  I've always taken the view that, no, it doesn't make a sound.  I take the philosophical view that we are only important through others.  If we go through our lives and never interact with anyone, we don't exist. 

We're not arguing whether or not someone exists because others say or think so.  This is not an argument of existence.  I'm saying we can replace Shepard with ersatz Shepard with no change to the plot of ME2, because their actions, and their role as a protagonist, could be done by anyone.

Put in the Mass Effect context, this an important view.  Because in ME2, Shepard quite literally doesn't exist except through the choices of others.  Does that make him less integral to the plot of ME2?  NO!  Emphatically not.  In fact, it makes him MORE integral.  The universe has chosen him.  TIM.  The Reapers.  The Collectors.  Tali.  Liara.  Ashley Williams.  Wrex.  The Rachni Queen (depending on choice).  Many others.  They understand and acknowledge what he has done and put faith in what he will do.  And all those alliances are integral to the overall story arc.

Shepard exists within the narrative due to TIM/Miranda.  Existence does not imply plot integrity.  For example, Tali's MacGuffin causes her to exist in ME1.  After that, she is replaceable.

It doesn't matter if the entire universe revolves around Shepard (which nearly every news story seems to state.)  If Shepard does not act, or do, or show any token or value, that Shepard and only Shepard could do, that causes the plot to continue, then Shepard is replaceable. (i.e. having a Prothean vision to go to A->B in the plot.)

And again, just limited to ME2, the whole thing doesn't take place without him.  TIM, the Reapers, the Collectors...they all made him important enough to revice and/or follow around.  Legion, too.  So who could we stick in there and replace Shepard and still have the same story?

We could replace Shepard with someone else, and the plot would be fine, yes. That's what I'm saying.

Could someone else theoretically defeat the Collectors?  Maybe.  But it becomes a different story altogether.

I'm sure some lines of dialog would be different, but the plot would be the same.

Modifié par smudboy, 23 avril 2010 - 04:37 .