50 réponses à ce sujet

[TotalLamer]

...when you're a Dalish (or a City Elf too, I assume) and she starts talking about elves, and manages to insult you like 3 times in a row even after you repeatedly point it out, and she's stumbling over her words the whole time while getting terribly flustered.  Always gets me.  Haha.

[Nerdage]

Mage elf, too. The thing about it is all the responses you get seems really defensive, which doesn't suit me, I'd rather have a joking response.

[TotalLamer]

nerdage wrote...

Mage elf, too. The thing about it is all the responses you get seems really defensive, which doesn't suit me, I'd rather have a joking response.

Personally I like that they're defensive, Lynneth here (being Dalish) is quite touchy about Humans / her people.

[Chuvvy]

(Insert your name here) Disapproves -25

[Nerdage]

TotalLamer wrote...

nerdage wrote...

Mage elf, too. The thing about it is all the responses you get seems really defensive, which doesn't suit me, I'd rather have a joking response.

Personally I like that they're defensive, Lynneth here (being Dalish) is quite touchy about Humans / her people.

Well I like that it's an option, but since I didn't think she was being all that offensive I would've liked an alternative, after all she was only describing life in Orlais. Maybe there could've been an even more confrontational reply, too.
Dalish elf: "Well where I'm from we kill humans on sight..."
It just seemed odd to me that there's so little choice in your reaction.

[Zy-El]

I would have prefered a different response to:

Lelianna: Some people like to keep elves around because they are pleasing to look at.

My Dalish PC: Oh? Do you find me pleasing to look at?

Lelianna: Er . . . um, I - I . . .

[blademaster7]

She doesn't try to be funny, but she cracks me up sometimes.



Her responses to other romances are golden.

[Sarah1281]

Well I like that it's an option, but since I didn't think she was being all that offensive I would've liked an alternative, after all she was only describing life in Orlais.

I thought it was quite offensive although I admit that she didn't think she was. The only elf I played was a CE but she said that the life of an elf sucked in Ferelden compared to the paradise elves had in Ferelden where they were all pretty much enslaved but prettied up because they were 'pleasing to look at.' How condescending can you get?

[MutantSpleen]

Well yeah but you have to realize everyone looks at elves that way not just her, she was raised in Orlais, of course she was brought up to think that way. Also when you point that out to her she is very apologetic about it.



I believe my elf mage said something about "just like a prize show animal" something like that and she stumbled all over herself trying to apologize. Some reason my mages always go for Leilana.

[Sarah1281]

It's one thing to realize that she's a product of her upbringing and she makes an effort to change her thinking. It's another to romance and possibly have a long-term relationship with deep-seated and largely unconscious prejudice against your entire race. Sure you can befriend her but since Alistair, Zevrn, and Morrigan don't seem to have years worth of viewing elves like prized show animals, why would they - if they're thinking as their characteter and not metagaming about how much they love Leliana - want to romance her?



It's about like the Alistair/mage thing, really.

[MutantSpleen]

So your saying Leliana can't change, she can't get beyond her preconceptions?

[JosieJ]

MutantSpleen wrote...

So your saying Leliana can't change, she can't get beyond her preconceptions?

I wouldn't say that.  But if you're going to get anywhere with her, those preconceptions need to be nipped in the bud ASAP.  (I always use the "show animal" quote, too!)

[Sarah1281]

Sure she can. Just not enough to completely overcome years of societal racism in the year that the game takes place in and if she's not romanced by then then she either goes back to Orlais, goes to the Deep Roads, goes to help with the expedition to Haven, or...whatever she does when Marjorlaine is dead, the Andraste-dragon still live, and she's unhardened. I think that to insist she can just 'get over it' based on one conversation and in less than a year is an insult to people in real life who were raised with racism and try to move past it, which tends to take a lot longer.

[Zy-El]

In Leliana's defense, she does apologize and admit to "seeing things in a different light" after your conversation and even gives Approval+1. Being able to change her viewpoint is the crux of her personal journey to finding herself - realizing that yes, she does enjoy hunting and slaying. Not the Chantry waif she was pretending to be. And that's who my PC keeps falling in love with . . .

[MutantSpleen]

Yep and you can help her through that, she can change. Plus if your an elf mage, Alistair and Morrigan are both more offensive. Morrigan basically calls you a mindless sheep and well Alistair would always make me a little nervous if I was a mage. He was raised in the Chantry as a Templar, deep down that will always be part of his personality.

Modifié par MutantSpleen, 14 avril 2010 - 06:45 .

[Sarah1281]

And so if you're an elven mage you have very good reasons to either romancing Zevran or staying single. I just think their are certain characters that don't easily lend themselves to certain romances. I've never played a male mage but while I could see Morrigan respecting your decision to stop being a mindless sheep, the fact she assumed that of you at all could definitely be a romance killer and given the ways even non-mages see Alistair's Templar-training shining through from practically the beginning, mages have reasons to be hesitant about romancing either. Even if Leliana promises to see things differently on a conscious level, it's clear a lot of her prejudice is subconscious so that would be a reason to give elves pause, just like the fact that Zevran tried to kill you is a reason to make ANY character hesitant. All of these can be overcome, of course, but given that you only have a year in game to undo the results of a lifetime of ingrained beliefs...it just doesn't always feel organic to me.

[MutantSpleen]

Well you have to look at it to, its bad to say, but the elves of DAO are used to it, they expect it. As an elf mage though you sure as hell had to learn how to get along with humans as 95% of the circle tower is human. Plus you probably got less racism than the Alienage elves. Plus love isn't rational anyway.

Edit: My Elf Mage has no chip on her shoulder about humans like my City Elf. She grew up with humans, her role model and mentor (Irving) was human, and she was never called knife-ears.

Modifié par MutantSpleen, 14 avril 2010 - 07:00 .

[Sarah1281]

Being used to it is one thing. Falling in love with someone who holds those principles is quite another. And love might not be rational but if you're already put-off by one of Leliana's early dialogues about how great being enslaved in Orlais is for the elves then while a friendship could eventually develop, I think it would take much longer than a year for an elf PC to fall in love with her.



If an elf is deeply bothered by the rampant racism in DA, which most of them seem to be, then they're not going to actively pursue racist shems so it would have to be completely accidental. I'm willing to bet the human Soris marries in the end isn't particularly racist, for instance, and certainly never told him that his life would be better in Orlais. Love not being rational isn't enough to get past major issues, even in DA. Alistair can be completely in love and then have it all fall apart because you won't indulge him in killing one man, Morrigan won't stay because she has bigger plans, and Leliana herself won't sit by and watch you desecrate Andraste's ashes (unless hardened and you're very persuasive). Yes, Loghain's death, the Old God, and the Chantry are very important to them but is it that unrealistic that the elven race is equally important to an elf warden?

[Nerdage]

Sarah1281 wrote...

And so if you're an elven mage you have very good reasons to either romancing Zevran or staying single. I just think their are certain characters that don't easily lend themselves to certain romances. I've never played a male mage but while I could see Morrigan respecting your decision to stop being a mindless sheep, the fact she assumed that of you at all could definitely be a romance killer.

That's another conversation where I don't like the choices, to be honest, if you try and defend the circle to Morrigan she just dismisses your rather limp defense and you net some handy - approval, I doubt you could convince her to change her mind but I wouldn't mind a mage duel with her, just to show her what a circle education really is. Didn't mean to change the topic, just saying.

Getting back to Leliana, is there an opposite conversation for low approval? Will she say something like "No wonder elves are considered inferior." before leaving the party? There probably isn't but it could be fun. I still don't think she's racist, though, I don't remember her actually giving an opinion through the whole conversation, just describing Orlais. I know there's an extra "you're not what I was expecting" bit  for a dalish but that's about the dalish specifically, rather than elves generally, and all she would know of the dalish would be the old legends and the old wives tales so it's understandable, it's also not so unreasonable that she would change her opinion of a dalish since I expect you'd be the only dalish she'd have met.

Modifié par nerdage, 14 avril 2010 - 07:23 .

[Sarah1281]

I'm still upset there is no option to confront her about her 'oh, maybe I could stay in Orzammar and help these poor helpless dwarves get things off of high shelves' and the dwarf-related insults about Oghren (insulting Oghren I can get. Saying he doesn't count as having gifts because he's a dwarf and the Maker didn't create them? Not.)



Still, the fact she sees nothing wrong with the way that the elves of Orlais are basically treated like pets indicates racism to me. And the perfume merchant in Denerim gives you a far more accurate picture with her tales of the enormous Alienage with walls so high the sun can't get in half the time.

[soignee]

Yeah Sarah, I wish I could call companions on some **** too. Visiting Dust Town with Alistair made me want to nutpunch him. The Alienage too, to be honest. Boy is sheltered.

[krasnoarmeets]

I love the bit where as she puts it 'lays her feelings bare...' the awkard, bumbling Leliana. It's so adorable. I particularly love the bit where she says something along the lines of:

'Nobody told me. You feel the same way and did not do me the courtesy of telling me? Why did make me say those things first? Oh, how very awkward...'
- I though you said you were comfortable with me?
- I am a woman, and I reserve the right to be inconsistent!

classic stuff. But, yes, she is racist toward elves. I would prefer some less defensive or more confrontational responses - especially for Dalish elves. Her attitude is why the Dalish and even city elves shun humans.

Modifié par krasnoarmeets, 14 avril 2010 - 07:38 .

[TotalLamer]

soignee wrote...

Yeah Sarah, I wish I could call companions on some **** too. Visiting Dust Town with Alistair made me want to nutpunch him. The Alienage too, to be honest. Boy is sheltered.

I think the worst is Morrigan.  Frakking hell, I mean, when you go to help Redcliffe village she ****es about helping cats out of trees next... SERIOUSLY Morrigan?  I need Earl Eamon's help, how the heck else do you expect me to get into the castle?!?!  *pulls hair out*

[Sarah1281]

soignee wrote...

Yeah Sarah, I wish I could call companions on some **** too. Visiting Dust Town with Alistair made me want to nutpunch him. The Alienage too, to be honest. Boy is sheltered.

Alistair is never allowed in Orzammar as all of my PCs are afraid the dwarves will eat him alive, so what does he say? And does Zevran ever saying anything offensive that might make a mage/elf/dwarf/human noble reconsider romancing him or is it just the 'he tried to kill you' thing?

Modifié par Sarah1281, 14 avril 2010 - 07:39 .

[soignee]

just the "he tried to kill you" thing. Zevran is actually on the money about a lot of things, actually. The asides he makes about decisions -like siding with Bhelen/Harrowmont, etc- are, albeit pragmatic, make the most sense.

The only thing I can think of where it's a bit "lol no" is the anvil, where he asks you to reconsider the options and that it would be good for your people to have a weapon such as that.

Alistair's conversations:

* (while walking past Tapster's Tavern) "What is that smell? Dwarven vomit? Charming."

* (upon entering Tapster’s Tavern for the first time) "I tried dwarven ale once. I thought it was just something they tricked surfacers into drinking, as a joke."

* (entering Dust Town) "Let me guess: this is where the poor people live?"