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[Xandurpein]

One of the oldest fairy tales around is that of the Knight who kills the Dragon to save the Princess. As old as it is, it's still being retold over and over in new shapes. It is also a story well suited to computer gaming. It represents after all the root of almost any game. A protagonist overcomes an obstacle and gets a reward.

A complex roleplaying game, like Dragon Age, differs from most other games in that it gives you a lot of freedom to set your own goals, other than those dictated by the main plot. you do not have to fulfill any of the romances in the game to win the game, but for many it is an integral part of the fun. We have a certain freedom to write our own stories, within the main story. And we can also cast the characters in our own stories.

My hope is that by using the story of the Knight, the Dragon and the Princess show you how we can create our own stories and cast them with different characters from the game and how that affects our view of the characters.

Leliana - The Redhead Princess
Leliana's story is pretty straight forward and a good starting point. Leliana is the Princess and the Knight (the Warden) has to save her from the Dragon (Marjolaine). When Marjolaine is defeated the obstacle for love is removed and the Knight can free his Princess.

Morrigan - The Dragon Lady
Morrigan is a more complex person in terms of my Fairy Tale. Morrigan can be Dragon in many peoples story and Princess in others. I call her romance the Dragon Princess, because in it she is both. The Knight must defeat the Dragon (the cold selfish parts of Morrigan) to free the Princess (the good caring parts of her). In this story the good parts of Morrigan becomes her 'true self' while her bad parts tends to be externalized (She is a victim of Flemeth upbringing). Flemeth is indeed a Dragon in this story.

Alistair - Bold Knight or Captive Prince?
Alistair is a very interesting example to examine. Traditionally women have been cast in the role of Princesses to be rescued by the bold Knight. Thankfully women have broader options today. It is equally possible to cast a female Warden in the role of Knight. I have studied the threads of the Alistair loving women and found evidence of both.

Some women cast themselves as Princesses in their stories. They emphasize Alistairs manlier traits and even trade tips on how to orchestrate the game to ensure that it is Alistair who kisses them first and so on. They usually 'harden' Alistair and almost always make him King as that is a symbol of power.

Other women cast themselves as Knights and Alistair as the Captive Prince. To them Alistair is first and foremost the adorable and slightly goofy nice guy that needs to be helped along. It is not nearly as important to these players to make Alistair King. They often even deliberatly 'save' him from it.

The list of possible Dragons in Alistairs story include Loghain, Morrigan, Anora or even Arl Eamon. Morrigan is the worm who stands between Alistair and his love requiring the couple to overcome the Dark Ritual to find happiness. Anora is a powerful Dragon, for women who cast themselves as Princesses, as she stands between Alistair and his Crown. (Not to mention the hint that maybe Alistair ought to marry her instead). By contrast, players who cast themselves as Knight's may cast Eamon as the Dragon, who tries to chain Alistair to the Crown and force him away from the player.

I think it is one of the great successes with Alistair that he is written so that both players who cast him as a Knight and as a Captive Prince can identfy with his romance.

Anora - Dragon or Princess?
We have already seen how Anora can be seen as a vile Dragon, particularily in the story when a woman has cast herself in the role of Princess. But can she also be a princess? She does seem to fulfill all the prerequisites. She is royalty, the player must rescue her and a noble Knight can marry her. But her greatest potential to a male Knight is perhaps if she is cast as a Dragon/Princess. She is cold and calculating, but it is not to impossible to imagine that a Knight can melt the Ice Queen, like with Morrigan. If Anora is cast as a Dragon/Princess then, as with Morrigan, her bad sides tends to become externalized and blamed on her father or the pressures of her office. Loghain is a Dragon that must be defeated (although not slain by the Knight himself!) to win the Princess.

So what do I want to prove with this. Mainly that there are many different ways to interpret the characters from Dragon Age. I use the term 'cast' to shown that the player activly writes his or her story and in doing so assigns characters from the game different roles. This in turn affects how we see those characters. My hope is that by showing this it may be possible to see that other people can write different stories than yours which are just as true as your.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 16 avril 2010 - 01:20 .

[sylvanaerie]

Interesting and well thought out post Xander.

sylvanaerie approves +10

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Excellent summary and metaphors. How interesting the very duality of Morrigan and Anora, the yin and yang of princess and dragon.

Alistair...always my damsel in distress. It is awesome in today's RP world, that the girls can finally be the hero who rescues their "damsel".

[KnightofPhoenix]

An astute observation. Yes, that formula is preset in many medias (like Star Wars: a New Hope, the princess being Leia and the dragon being the death star).

In addition, I would say some origins have a "mini-dragon" as well. Obviously, Howe is one such dragon. Bhelen can be viewed as another. Potentially, Uldred could have been one, except he is not shown in the Mage Origins.
Alternatively, the Chantry and Templars can be seen as a dragon that a mage can overcome at the end.

At the risk of sounding weird, I would even say that Loghain is a captive prince of a dragon: mainly, the downward spiral he found himself in (and contributed in its creation). In addition, vengeance could be seen as a dragon that the PC can overcome when dealing with Loghain. Except of course Loghain is not romanceable.

Zevran too is confronted with a dragon (his past as a crow / the crows themselves).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 avril 2010 - 08:06 .

[Xandurpein]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

An astute observation. Yes, that formula is preset in many medias (like Star Wars: a New Hope, the princess being Leia and the dragon being the death star).

In addition, I would say some origins have a "mini-dragon" as well. Obviously, Howe is one such dragon. Bhelen can be viewed as another. Potentially, Uldred could have been one, except he is not shown in the Mage Origins.
Alternatively, the Chantry and Templars can be seen as a dragon that a mage can overcome at the end.

At the risk of sounding weird, I would even say that Loghain is a captive prince of a dragon: mainly, the downward spiral he found himself in (and contributed in its creation). In addition, vengeance could be seen as a dragon that the PC can overcome when dealing with Loghain. Except of course Loghain is not romanceable.

Zevran too is confronted with a dragon (his past as a crow / the crows themselves).

Indeed. There are many candidates to every role in the drama. Not all Dragons have obvious Princesses to free though. There is for example no Princess to free with killing Howe. It is more a two person drama between the villian and the vigilante seeking justice or vengeance.

Zevran may indeed be captured by his past and needs to freed of his uncaring side to set free his 'true' inner self'. I left Zevran out because I have not completed his romance I would not want to write about what I didn't know.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 15 avril 2010 - 01:57 .

[Xandurpein]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Excellent summary and metaphors. How interesting the very duality of Morrigan and Anora, the yin and yang of princess and dragon.

Alistair...always my damsel in distress. It is awesome in today's RP world, that the girls can finally be the hero who rescues their "damsel".

Yes. It is noteworthy though that men so far has no choice in the matter. There is no female knight to rescue us, should we so wish, yet. I think that this in some way mirrors the fact that in todays western culture women are more free to pick and choose between traditionally male and female traits in a way men cannot, at the risk of ridicule. Although the whole game format really favors the player as Knight, the one who slays the Dragons, rather than await rescue.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xandurpein wrote...
There is no female knight to rescue us, should we so wish, yet. 

Flemeth....

And Morrigan, with the dark ritual

[Xandurpein]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...
There is no female knight to rescue us, should we so wish, yet. 

Flemeth....

And Morrigan, with the dark ritual

Good point actually. The Dark Ritual can be written with Morrigan as a Dragon who post a terrible obstacle between the two lovers or indeed as a Knight who offers to save the Warden from death, all depending on your perspective.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 15 avril 2010 - 02:05 .

[svenus97]

Warden is the Hero, the Urn is the Princess and the High Dragon is umm.. a Dragon ?



How would you interpret the Architecht? He is seen as a Hero for the Darkspawn, Dragon for the Warden, and a Prince when facing the Mother.

[SphereofSilence]

That's an interesting and insightful read. Now I can see why Alistair and Morrigan are such well designed characters.

There's a recent interview of David Gaider by greywardens.com in which the Lead Writer mentioned that writing successfully for a game such as DA requires understanding that players have creative needs and 'inner voices,' which a game writer must cater to, rather writing for the audience to digest passively as in a novel or movie. Your article of princesses and dragons seemed to tie in here as well, because the ensemble of characters were written with players' 'voices' in mind.

One person might love Morrigan, while another might hate her for being such a ****. Still there are those that are intrigue by her barbed external outlook covering a 'true self.' Alistair is, as you said, another great example.

Of course, it's not just always about the relationship of the PC to each character individually or the individual internal conflicts of your crew. When the dynamics of Dragon/Princess/Knight play out BETWEEN characters in which the player can have an impact on via choices, such as many examples found in this thread, we get a strong character-driven story, one in which the player can call his/her own.

http://greywardens.c...rt-2/#more-6517

Modifié par SphereofSilence, 14 avril 2010 - 09:01 .

[Xandurpein]

Thanks for linking the interview. It was very interesting read.

And I agree. It is a sign of how well written the characters are that they can so easily be adapted to different roles, depending on how you wish to cast them in your story. Unfortunatly it is also a source of endless flaming as so many players have difficulty to see beyond their own interpretation of events. It is sad when people feel they need to create whole threads about hating particular characters because they cannot accept that someone else have cast their Dragon as Princess or Knight.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 14 avril 2010 - 09:33 .

[Phonantiphon]

Very interesting read throughout.

[jase1976]

interesting post. Also it seems like the protagonist hero(s) in a lot of these mythical stories belong to a special group of warriors or peace keepers. The Knights of the Round Table, The Jedi, the Grey Wardens, and the Spectres (Mass Effect), for example.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Excellent thoughts. Loghain could also be seen as a duality of dragon and captive feeding upon one another, like the eternity snake.



I think most RPGs are meant to favor the "knight" as opposed to the captive, because you are taking an active, not passive role in the story.

[7th_Phoenix]

Wow, this is nice OP.

[Xandurpein]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Excellent thoughts. Loghain could also be seen as a duality of dragon and captive feeding upon one another, like the eternity snake.

I think most RPGs are meant to favor the "knight" as opposed to the captive, because you are taking an active, not passive role in the story.

I agree. You could even argue that there is a non-romantic story in which the Knight (the Warden) defeats the Dragon (Loghain's twisted evil side) to free the Princess (his good loyal side) culminating in his redemption killing the Archdemon (honorable death being true freedom for him at this point), although in his own story I guess Loghain would be the Knight who slays the Dragon and saves Fereldan.

I also agree that most RPGs, indeed most games of all kind, favor an active Knight as player. What players who wish to be Alistairs Princess do however is actually quite active as they are often carefully manipulating the events needed for their Princess to be able to passivly accept Alistair's kiss. The game just shifts focus.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 15 avril 2010 - 07:56 .

[SphereofSilence]

Xandurpein wrote...

Thanks for linking the interview. It was very interesting read.

And I agree. It is a sign of how well written the characters are that they can so easily be adapted to different roles, depending on how you wish to cast them in your story. Unfortunatly it is also a source of endless flaming as so many players have difficulty to see beyond their own interpretation of events. It is sad when people feel they need to create whole threads about hating particular characters because they cannot accept that someone else have cast their Dragon as Princess or Knight.

On one hand, yes it's sad with all those hate threads and needless flaming. 

On the other, it's also a sure sign that Bioware had done something right.

[errant_knight]

What an interesting analysis of both play and potential stories! There are indeed many dragons to be slain in Dragon Age, and many of them are metaphorical!

Do I play the princess or the knight? That's a good question. Neither? Both? And what is heroism?

To play the hero, to me, one must not only save Fereldan from the blight, but also save one's companions from their dragons. The dragons you outlined are indeed dangers to them, but I see the most dangerous dragons as those which torment their hearts and minds. For Alistair, it's his self-doubt and feelings of unworthiness, For Leiliana, it's her fear that she's no different than Marjolaine, for Morrigan, it's her inability to form bonds and trust another person.

The only way to save them from these dragons is to show them that they can save themselves, to show Alistair that he can lead and be heroic, to show Leiliana that it wasn't a skill set that made Marjolaine what she was, but an attitude, to show Morrigan that there are people who mean her no harm, will support her without wanting something from her and who appriciate her efforts.

The other dragons--Flemeth, Loghain, Marjolaine, even the Archdemon--are slain not because of the PCs personal power, but by the strength of the group as a whole, which is achieved in part by letting the companions have power, sometimes pushing them in that direction. I don't see taking as much power as possible for one's self as necessarily being the most heroic course of action.

This way of looking at the game becomes a little more problematic with Sten, Oghren and Zevran, particularly with Oghren and Zevran.

Sten comes to see that the ways. You can show Sten that things he believes are impossible can be true, and send him home, honor restored, with ideas outside the rigid hierarchy of the Qunari. Will that lead him to great things? We don't know, but it feels like a positive thing.

The gains you make with Oghren are all but undone in Awakening. Was it heroic to take him from Orzammar or help him with Felsi? It's a mixed blessing at best.

I have the most difficulty with Zevran. You can't free him from his past, all you can do is replace a loyalty that is unappreciated and will do him harm, with another--to your PC. He can learn to love (and I know I risk the wrath of a kazillion Zevran fans who see it utterly differently), but he's as bound by that as he was by the Crows.

My PC is the princess in that she wants Alistair reach his potential and become the hero that he can be--but also the knight in that she wants to fight beside him as a team. She's the knight in that she wants to save Leiliana and Morrigan from their pasts and the knight in that she wants to give Sten back his honor, and in doing so, perhaps save Fereldan from the Qun.

There's little of the knight or the princess in her dealings with Oghren or Zevran. Life is complicated even for heros. Beyond all that, she wants Loghain and Howe's heads on pikes, to chop the darkspawn into as many pieces as possible, and to end the blight. Knight, princess, hero, or just violent? Who knows!

EDIT: I seem to have left out Anora.... That's probably because I have no thought of saving her. I see her as a less tainted version of her father, and Alistair's analysis of her at Landsmeet (when 'hardened') as being correct--Anora is not an option. She is saved, not by my PC, but by Alistair sparing her life. That doesn't mean I see her as evil or incompetent, just that for me she caused her own downfall when she tried to replace the Therin line with Mac Tirs.

Modifié par errant_knight, 15 avril 2010 - 01:36 .

[Xandurpein]

@errant_knight

To me the stories of Knight, Dragon and Princess are mini-dramas we create within the game. I certainly do not propose that it's applicable to every situation. And as you point out, your game can consist of many such dramas and characters can have different roles in different dramas in the same game. A player might choose to view herself as Alistair's Princess and still be fighting along side him as his partner.

The key for me in evaluating the story with Alistair is the actual romance. Is it your character that woo/seduce/propose to Alistair or do you prefer him to be the active part that kiss your character first. My observation have been that players who assume the role of Princess in this respect seem to prefer Alistair as hardened and King, with emphasis on 'manly' virtues, whereas players who like to actively 'chase' Alistair seem to prefer him 'Unhardened' with emphasis on him being cute and adorable.

Your description of Anora is certainly interesting. Anora's biggest crime is not her policies, but that she is an obstacle to Alistair realizing his potential as bold Knight and King. Anora is always a Dragon, when the player cast herself as Alistair's Princess.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 15 avril 2010 - 02:13 .

[errant_knight]

Xandurpein wrote...

@errant_knight

To me the stories of Knight, Dragon and Princess are mini-dramas we create within the game. I certainly do not propose that it's applicable to every situation. And as you point out, your game can consist of many such dramas and characters can have different roles in different dramas in the same game. A player might choose to view herself as Alistair's Princess and still be fighting along side him as his partner.

The key for me in evaluating the story with Alistair is the actual romance. Is it your character that woo/seduce/propose to Alistair or do you prefer him to be the active part that kiss your character first. My observation have been that players who assume the role of Princess in this respect seem to prefer Alistair as hardened and King, with emphasis on 'manly' virtues, whereas players who like to actively 'chase' Alistair seem to prefer him 'Unhardened' with emphasis on him being cute and adorable.

Your description of Anora is certainly interesting. Anora's biggest crime is not her policies, but that she is an obstacle to Alistair realizing his potential as bold Knight and King. Anora is always a Dragon, when the player cast herself as Alistair's Princess.

Anora is always committing treason, attempting to overthrow the rightful bloodline with her own. One can think that's a good or bad idea, but in any case, and no matter what kind of king Alistair would be, aiding her is abetting treason. That's just as true when playing a male character as a female, and even more pointed when the male PC marries Anora.

My main reason for waiting for Alistair to make the first move is that he feels so uncomfortable when propositioned. He doesn't leap at the chance, you have to convince him. I just don't think it's nice to pressure virgins into having sex before they're ready, male or female. Believe me, I don't have issues with women instigating, uh...activity. But if you have to ask more than once, well, you should wait until that person wants to take you up on the offer and brings it up themselves. Does that make my PC a princess, or just 'gentlemanly?'

Modifié par errant_knight, 15 avril 2010 - 05:14 .

[Xandurpein]

errant_knight wrote...

Anora is always committing treason, attempting to overthrow the rightful bloodline with her own. One can think that's a good or bad idea, but in any case, and no matter what kind of king Alistair would be, aiding her is abetting treason. That's just as true when playing a male character as a female, and even more pointed when the male PC marries Anora.

I do not want to turn this thread into another about Anora's character beyond the scope of the thread, i.e. how the archetypes affect how we see the characters. I do not believe the legal issues are as you seem to think as Alistair is a bastard not recognized by the King. This is not to say that you are not entiteled to believe that spiritually or morally it is still treason to end Maric's bloodline. Beyond that I don't want to say more on that issue on this thread.

[errant_knight]

Xandurpein wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Anora is always committing treason, attempting to overthrow the rightful bloodline with her own. One can think that's a good or bad idea, but in any case, and no matter what kind of king Alistair would be, aiding her is abetting treason. That's just as true when playing a male character as a female, and even more pointed when the male PC marries Anora.

I do not want to turn this thread into another about Anora's character beyond the scope of the thread, i.e. how the archetypes affect how we see the characters. I do not believe the legal issues are as you seem to think as Alistair is a bastard not recognized by the King. This is not to say that you are not entiteled to believe that spiritually or morally it is still treason to end Maric's bloodline. Beyond that I don't want to say more on that issue on this thread.

I wasn't saying that the player can't believe it's the right thing to do, or trying to debate Anora, I just didn't know how to respond to your comment about my view of Anora without addressing the issue since I don't see it as being about Alistair, per se, but I can leave it there.

[Dark Lilith]

some interesting conjecture on your part.Why is it that dragons fill a nitch in almost every culture on earth? Why does this tale of a knight (purity, strength,righteousness) seem to fill a void that we all seem to be draw to?

The triumph of good over evil seems to fill every nation and yet we still see it as just imagination; or perhaps does it truly bring forth something buried deep in all our psyches?

[Xandurpein]

errant_knight wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Anora is always committing treason, attempting to overthrow the rightful bloodline with her own. One can think that's a good or bad idea, but in any case, and no matter what kind of king Alistair would be, aiding her is abetting treason. That's just as true when playing a male character as a female, and even more pointed when the male PC marries Anora.

I do not want to turn this thread into another about Anora's character beyond the scope of the thread, i.e. how the archetypes affect how we see the characters. I do not believe the legal issues are as you seem to think as Alistair is a bastard not recognized by the King. This is not to say that you are not entiteled to believe that spiritually or morally it is still treason to end Maric's bloodline. Beyond that I don't want to say more on that issue on this thread.

I wasn't saying that the player can't believe it's the right thing to do, or trying to debate Anora, I just didn't know how to respond to your comment about my view of Anora without addressing the issue since I don't see it as being about Alistair, per se, but I can leave it there.

Fair enough. Maybe I deserved it then