53 réponses à ce sujet

[Astranagant]

All I can say is... so what? The trope of the knight slaying the dragon and saving the princess (and being rewarded with her virginity/hand in marriage,) is not exactly a complex allegory or legitimate symbolism. I can only see this as further testimony to the laziness of DAO's writers in repeating the same tired cliches of fantasy once again.

[Xandurpein]

Astranagant wrote...

All I can say is... so what? The trope of the knight slaying the dragon and saving the princess (and being rewarded with her virginity/hand in marriage,) is not exactly a complex allegory or legitimate symbolism. I can only see this as further testimony to the laziness of DAO's writers in repeating the same tired cliches of fantasy once again.

I think you miss my point entirely. The DAO writers have, in my opinion, created very complex characters and situations. It is we, the players, who tend to impose the symbolism on the characters. The fact that different players can impose the symbolism differently and cast the characters in different roles, is testament to the many facets of the characters and the skill in the story telling.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 15 avril 2010 - 07:48 .

[errant_knight]

Xandurpein wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Anora is always committing treason, attempting to overthrow the rightful bloodline with her own. One can think that's a good or bad idea, but in any case, and no matter what kind of king Alistair would be, aiding her is abetting treason. That's just as true when playing a male character as a female, and even more pointed when the male PC marries Anora.

I do not want to turn this thread into another about Anora's character beyond the scope of the thread, i.e. how the archetypes affect how we see the characters. I do not believe the legal issues are as you seem to think as Alistair is a bastard not recognized by the King. This is not to say that you are not entiteled to believe that spiritually or morally it is still treason to end Maric's bloodline. Beyond that I don't want to say more on that issue on this thread.

I wasn't saying that the player can't believe it's the right thing to do, or trying to debate Anora, I just didn't know how to respond to your comment about my view of Anora without addressing the issue since I don't see it as being about Alistair, per se, but I can leave it there.

Fair enough. Maybe I deserved it then

Not a bit! I know the danger posed by moving off topic into heated areas of debate all too well.

[AntiChri5]

Very interesting thread.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

When it comes to Dragons, I often see Eamon himself as a sly, manipulative dragon that has held Alistair captive by chains of family and duty, in pushing and herding him towards kingship, without concern for his own personal desires and feelings.



In this case, Anora, interestingly enough, is neither dragon nor princess, but the sword I use to "slay" Eamon's ambitions with, thus rescuing my "prince" from captivity by Eamon on the throne, and we can ride off happily together in freedom.



Thus, in my favorite playthroughs, Anora is my ticket to the happiest ending. The "loop" in Eamon's "hole", so to speak.



Morrigan serves as a shield to Anora's sword, protecting the lives of both knight and prince on the way to the final "dragon".

[Xandurpein]

Alistair is really an interesting character. And I do agree that Eamon is a quite ruthless person when it comes to Alistair and his desires. A 'hardened' Alistair seems to accept the Crown willingly, but this really doesn't change the fact that Eamon doesn't give a damn about Alistair, it's just that a 'hardened' Alistair isn't as hurt by Eamon's actions as an 'un-hardened'.



It continues to fascinate me how people can love Alistair for so different reasons and read so different things into him. I think it's a tribute to Gaider's writing skill that this is so.

[Lara Denton]

Xandurpein wrote...
It continues to fascinate me how people can love Alistair for so different reasons and read so different things into him. I think it's a tribute to Gaider's writing skill that this is so.

That's true.
And a great read. Very interesting to see the different views pointed out like that.

[nos_astra]

Very enlightening thread.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Xandurpein wrote...

Alistair is really an interesting character. And I do agree that Eamon is a quite ruthless person when it comes to Alistair and his desires. A 'hardened' Alistair seems to accept the Crown willingly, but this really doesn't change the fact that Eamon doesn't give a damn about Alistair, it's just that a 'hardened' Alistair isn't as hurt by Eamon's actions as an 'un-hardened'.

It continues to fascinate me how people can love Alistair for so different reasons and read so different things into him. I think it's a tribute to Gaider's writing skill that this is so.

he is alot more complex than many are willing to give credit for. There are many facets, peaks and valleys to his character.

Modifié par Skadi_the_Evil_Elf, 16 avril 2010 - 01:21 .

[Xandurpein]

Dark Lilith wrote...

some interesting conjecture on your part.Why is it that dragons fill a nitch in almost every culture on earth? Why does this tale of a knight (purity, strength,righteousness) seem to fill a void that we all seem to be draw to?
The triumph of good over evil seems to fill every nation and yet we still see it as just imagination; or perhaps does it truly bring forth something buried deep in all our psyches?

I think that part of it is in the nature of games itself. A protagonist overcomes an obstacle and gets a reward. That is pretty much the recepie for any game you want. We humans seem to enjoy overcoming obstacles and 'win'. Competitive sports would not be so popular if it wasn't so. At the same time I think our need for approval from our peers (we are a spieces that live in groups) makes us wish to fight for a just cause, not just fighting for it's own sake. If I would hazard a guess, it is that the image of the Righteous Knight is born from those twin desires within us: competition and approval.

[sylvanaerie]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

When it comes to Dragons, I often see Eamon himself as a sly, manipulative dragon that has held Alistair captive by chains of family and duty, in pushing and herding him towards kingship, without concern for his own personal desires and feelings.

In this case, Anora, interestingly enough, is neither dragon nor princess, but the sword I use to "slay" Eamon's ambitions with, thus rescuing my "prince" from captivity by Eamon on the throne, and we can ride off happily together in freedom.

Thus, in my favorite playthroughs, Anora is my ticket to the happiest ending. The "loop" in Eamon's "hole", so to speak.

Morrigan serves as a shield to Anora's sword, protecting the lives of both knight and prince on the way to the final "dragon".

I like this analogy.  In my favorite playthrough this is what I did, and it sums up in words better than I can express how my PC felt in that situation.  Its the one time I made Anora rule alone and told Eamon to stick it.  (Dalish Elf)

[Xandurpein]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

When it comes to Dragons, I often see Eamon himself as a sly, manipulative dragon that has held Alistair captive by chains of family and duty, in pushing and herding him towards kingship, without concern for his own personal desires and feelings.

In this case, Anora, interestingly enough, is neither dragon nor princess, but the sword I use to "slay" Eamon's ambitions with, thus rescuing my "prince" from captivity by Eamon on the throne, and we can ride off happily together in freedom.

Thus, in my favorite playthroughs, Anora is my ticket to the happiest ending. The "loop" in Eamon's "hole", so to speak.

Morrigan serves as a shield to Anora's sword, protecting the lives of both knight and prince on the way to the final "dragon".

I like this analogy.  In my favorite playthrough this is what I did, and it sums up in words better than I can express how my PC felt in that situation.  Its the one time I made Anora rule alone and told Eamon to stick it.  (Dalish Elf)

I will update the original post by this revealing idea. It really highlights the difference between Alistair the Knight and Alistair the Captive Prince. In the first story Anora is the main Dragon, in the other story Eamon is the Dragon.

[Bratt1204]

Xandurpein wrote...


One of the oldest fairy tales around is that of the Knight who kills the Dragon to save the Princess. As old as it is, it's still being retold over and over in new shapes. It is also a story well suited to computer gaming. It represents after all the root of almost any game. A protagonist overcomes an obstacle and gets a reward.

A complex roleplaying game, like Dragon Age, differs from most other games in that it gives you a lot of freedom to set your own goals, other than those dictated by the main plot. you do not have to fulfill any of the romances in the game to win the game, but for many it is an integral part of the fun. We have a certain freedom to write our own stories, within the main story. And we can also cast the characters in our own stories.

My hope is that by using the story of the Knight, the Dragon and the Princess show you how we can create our own stories and cast them with different characters from the game and how that affects our view of the characters.

Leliana - The Redhead Princess
Leliana's story is pretty straight forward and a good starting point. Leliana is the Princess and the Knight (the Warden) has to save her from the Dragon (Marjolaine). When Marjolaine is defeated the obstacle for love is removed and the Knight can free his Princess.

Morrigan - The Dragon Lady
Morrigan is a more complex person in terms of my Fairy Tale. Morrigan can be Dragon in many peoples story and Princess in others. I call her romance the Dragon Princess, because in it she is both. The Knight must defeat the Dragon (the cold selfish parts of Morrigan) to free the Princess (the good caring parts of her). In this story the good parts of Morrigan becomes her 'true self' while her bad parts tends to be externalized (She is a victim of Flemeth upbringing). Flemeth is indeed a Dragon in this story.

Alistair - Bold Knight or Captive Prince?
Alistair is a very interesting example to examine. Traditionally women have been cast in the role of Princesses to be rescued by the bold Knight. Thankfully women have broader options today. It is equally possible to cast a female Warden in the role of Knight. I have studied the threads of the Alistair loving women and found evidence of both.

Some women cast themselves as Princesses in their stories. They emphasize Alistairs manlier traits and even trade tips on how to orchestrate the game to ensure that it is Alistair who kisses them first and so on. They usually 'harden' Alistair and almost always make him King as that is a symbol of power.

Other women cast themselves as Knights and Alistair as the Captive Prince. To them Alistair is first and foremost the adorable and slightly goofy nice guy that needs to be helped along. It is not nearly as important to these players to make Alistair King. They often even deliberatly 'save' him from it.

The list of possible Dragons in Alistairs story include Loghain, Morrigan, Anora or even Arl Eamon. Morrigan is the worm who stands between Alistair and his love requiring the couple to overcome the Dark Ritual to find happiness. Anora is a powerful Dragon, for women who cast themselves as Princesses, as she stands between Alistair and his Crown. (Not to mention the hint that maybe Alistair ought to marry her instead). By contrast, players who cast themselves as Knight's may cast Eamon as the Dragon, who tries to chain Alistair to the Crown and force him away from the player.

I think it is one of the great successes with Alistair that he is written so that both players who cast him as a Knight and as a Captive Prince can identfy with his romance.

Anora - Dragon or Princess?
We have already seen how Anora can be seen as a vile Dragon, particularily in the story when a woman has cast herself in the role of Princess. But can she also be a princess? She does seem to fulfill all the prerequisites. She is royalty, the player must rescue her and a noble Knight can marry her. But her greatest potential to a male Knight is perhaps if she is cast as a Dragon/Princess. She is cold and calculating, but it is not to impossible to imagine that a Knight can melt the Ice Queen, like with Morrigan. If Anora is cast as a Dragon/Princess then, as with Morrigan, her bad sides tends to become externalized and blamed on her father or the pressures of her office. Loghain is a Dragon that must be defeated (although not slain by the Knight himself!) to win the Princess.

So what do I want to prove with this. Mainly that there are many different ways to interpret the characters from Dragon Age. I use the term 'cast' to shown that the player activly writes his or her story and in doing so assigns characters from the game different roles. This in turn affects how we see those characters. My hope is that by showing this it may be possible to see that other people can write different stories than yours which are just as true as your.

Great post. I truly appreciate your analysis of Alistair's character and find it very insightful. He is my favourite character by far and is extremely well written as is Morrigan.

Modifié par Bratt1204, 16 avril 2010 - 02:13 .

[LadyDamodred]

Xandurpein wrote...
Alistair - Bold Knight or Captive Prince?
Alistair is a very interesting example to examine. Traditionally women have been cast in the role of Princesses to be rescued by the bold Knight. Thankfully women have broader options today. It is equally possible to cast a female Warden in the role of Knight. I have studied the threads of the Alistair loving women and found evidence of both.

Some women cast themselves as Princesses in their stories. They emphasize Alistairs manlier traits and even trade tips on how to orchestrate the game to ensure that it is Alistair who kisses them first and so on. They usually 'harden' Alistair and almost always make him King as that is a symbol of power.

Other women cast themselves as Knights and Alistair as the Captive Prince. To them Alistair is first and foremost the adorable and slightly goofy nice guy that needs to be helped along. It is not nearly as important to these players to make Alistair King. They often even deliberatly 'save' him from it.

The list of possible Dragons in Alistairs story include Loghain, Morrigan, Anora or even Arl Eamon. Morrigan is the worm who stands between Alistair and his love requiring the couple to overcome the Dark Ritual to find happiness. Anora is a powerful Dragon, for women who cast themselves as Princesses, as she stands between Alistair and his Crown. (Not to mention the hint that maybe Alistair ought to marry her instead). By contrast, players who cast themselves as Knight's may cast Eamon as the Dragon, who tries to chain Alistair to the Crown and force him away from the player.

I think it is one of the great successes with Alistair that he is written so that both players who cast him as a Knight and as a Captive Prince can identfy with his romance.

I like this lil essay.  Nice read.  Being an Alistair fangirl, I'll stick with my favorite topic.  Others might disagree with me, but I think it's impossible to play solely as the Princess when romancing Alistair.  Yes, you have to emphasize the "manlier" traits and harden him, but doing that requires you to take the lead, to be hard enough to hurt someone you love to help them.  For my canon character, the PC is a strong person.  While she loves the goofy and adorable Alistair, and doesn't want that to go away, leaving him as is is too much of an inequality in a relationship.  She let's Alistair dictate the pace of the relationship because she needs something to balance her role in his life as his leader/commander.  To do so otherwise is too much of a power-imbalance.

She also doesn't make him king because it's a symbol of power.  It's a calculated decision to put him in a position where he can use these newfound traits he's discovered have really been inside him all along.  It's somewhat of a paradox that in order to get the "Princess" ending, you have to take control of Alistair's life and change him from what he was.  When you do that, he comes to realize that it is something he wants/has been capable of all along.  You then have to further take the lead and either tell him who he's going to marry or that he's not going to give you up.  You still very much have the play the Knight and rescue Alistair from himself and his views of duty.

I guess my point is that there's no sitting back and simply playing a Princess to Alistair's Knight.  Whatever you decide to do with him, you have to rescue him in some fashion, from either unwanted duties or responsibilities or his own views of such.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I myself, never found Alistair, even unhardened, to be "unmanly". He has many flaws, but I never really saw him as wimpy. There are advantages and disadvantages to hardening him, no matter how you play.



But just because I see Alistair as a proverbial "damsel" does not mean I see him as a submissive wimp. Quite the opposite. It takes alot of strength to hold on to rose colored hopes and dreams in a world that's unendingly dark and grey. A rainbow fighting the ravages of a supercell thunderstorm.



Sometimes, delusions really are enlightening and strengthening.

[Alikain]

Very enlightening thread. Quick question what makes Alistair Sister (Goldanna) then, because i for one do not think he and Alistair are related in anyway. So is she also a Dragon?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Alikain wrote...

Very enlightening thread. Quick question what makes Alistair Sister (Goldanna) then, because i for one do not think he and Alistair are related in anyway. So is she also a Dragon?

Depends on how you view it. She really is, more than anything, a crux point for him. A corrupted grail, so to speak. I don't see how her being related or not matters in the picture. I don't see why they aren't.

[LadyDamodred]

Alikain wrote...

Very enlightening thread. Quick question what makes Alistair Sister (Goldanna) then, because i for one do not think he and Alistair are related in anyway. So is she also a Dragon?

?  According to what the game tells you, Goldana is Alistair's older sister.  Their mother died when Alistair was born.  Alistair is not related to Eamon in anyway.  Eamon's sister was Queen Rowen, who maried Maric and was Cailan's mother.  I think in game she's just a relic from the past Alistair has to deal with, and not a true dragon.

There's another theory out there, but I don't want to spoil.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 16 avril 2010 - 07:30 .

[Xandurpein]

LadyDamodred wrote...

I guess my point is that there's no sitting back and simply playing a Princess to Alistair's Knight.  Whatever you decide to do with him, you have to rescue him in some fashion, from either unwanted duties or responsibilities or his own views of such.

I agree really. It is perhaps one of the great stengths of how Alistair is written, that if he is to become the Knight in your fairy tale, you still need to work for it. It would be much less satisfying if he was naturally wooing the 'Princess' (the player). Any game requires an effort to overcome some form of obstacle for the reward to feel meaningful. What makes a story where the player is assigned the role of Princess to work satisfactorily in the game is that it involves some active manipulating or orchestrating necessary by the player to make the desired outcome work.

In some ways I think this mirrors real life too. I think that even within the narrow confines of traditional gender roles women could still be active (manipulating/seducing a man), as long as they maintained the illusion of being passive.

[Xandurpein]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Alikain wrote...

Very enlightening thread. Quick question what makes Alistair Sister (Goldanna) then, because i for one do not think he and Alistair are related in anyway. So is she also a Dragon?

Depends on how you view it. She really is, more than anything, a crux point for him. A corrupted grail, so to speak. I don't see how her being related or not matters in the picture. I don't see why they aren't.

At the risk of repeating myself. It is not the game that assigns the characters different roles in the drama, it is the player. If you as player feel that Goldanna is an obstacle that you must overcome or defeat to free your chosen Damsel in distress, then she becomes the dragon.

The dramas I am showing are really only examples that seem to me to be recurring a lot. Ultimatley however it is what you feel yourself when playing that matters. The real point I'm trying to make is that whatever drama we actually enact, we tend to emphasize the parts in the characters personality that fits the role we've assigned them, at the expense of seeing them as more complex characters.

[Havokk7]

Xandurpein wrote...
A protagonist overcomes an obstacle and gets a reward.

It sounds like you are describing the Campbellian Momomyth.
http://www.jcf.org/n...s&p9999_wid=692
http://www.mythicher...s_mythology.htm

B

[Sarah1281]

Some women cast themselves as Princesses in their stories. They emphasize Alistairs manlier traits and even trade tips on how to orchestrate the game to ensure that it is Alistair who kisses them first and so on. They usually 'harden' Alistair and almost always make him King as that is a symbol of power.

Other women cast themselves as Knights and Alistair as the Captive Prince. To them Alistair is first and foremost the adorable and slightly goofy nice guy that needs to be helped along. It is not nearly as important to these players to make Alistair King. They often even deliberatly 'save' him from it.

Hm, I think I fit more into the area of 'Knight who finds captive prince, hands him a sword, and tells him to have at it.' The few playthroughs I romance him I don't have the patience to wait for him to start something (and he is the virgin in that situation so it would take forever) but if he need to be 'saved' from anything it's his delusion that as the only living Theirin (that we know of) people - read: Eamon - won't be eager to put him up on the throne to get Loghain out of the way. Although I suppose at the end of most games he might need to be 'saved' from his father-in-law-from-hell and his reluctat bride.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 27 avril 2010 - 10:26 .

[Merilsell]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Alistair is really an interesting character. And I do agree that Eamon is a quite ruthless person when it comes to Alistair and his desires. A 'hardened' Alistair seems to accept the Crown willingly, but this really doesn't change the fact that Eamon doesn't give a damn about Alistair, it's just that a 'hardened' Alistair isn't as hurt by Eamon's actions as an 'un-hardened'.

It continues to fascinate me how people can love Alistair for so different reasons and read so different things into him. I think it's a tribute to Gaider's writing skill that this is so.

he is alot more complex than many are willing to give credit for. There are many facets, peaks and valleys to his character.

THIS.

He is not for nothing my favorite character and it seems to me that a lot of people are underestimate/misunderstand him. Alistair is far more than just the funny, goofy guy and fellow Warden.

Then again no one in DA is as he/she seems at first sight. Exploring what lies under the surface of their character is what I love so much about the game. The character's are just that good written -- not only Alistair - but he especially. (Close followed by Zevran and Morrigan, imo)

[eucatastrophe]

I think all the characters are really well done. Even those like Sten and Wynne whom people seem to hate for inane reasons.



The only character I felt they could have improved upon was Oghren. For me, he shines during the Branka scene but thats it.