146 réponses à ce sujet

[zapkeet]

More of a Loghain vs. Alistair debate.  This is definitely part of it but there's so much more.  My character reflected my decision, but I feel like (this is also a real life stance) killing a person out of pure spite and using the "eye for an eye" method of dealing with things is awful.  I showed mercy on all but two characters in the game.  These were Marjoline and the Tevinter slaver boss.  The reasons i didn't spare them was because they were going to keep doing what they were doing and were unable to be affected by the law. 

Loghain, however, had lost.  Pure and simple, if he became a grey warden he was done and overwith, his fate sealed.  But even before that, I would not kill him as that would go against my beliefs and he had YIELDED according to the rules of the landsmeet.  I've heard some say that picking Loghain is an evil thing to do while, on the contrary, I believe that killing him is quite an evil thing to do and makes you no better than he is because there is little reason to kill him except for revenge.

On that note Alistair's reaction made me rage.  I mean, it would have been understandable if I hadn't of had his approval rating at 100, done his side quests, became his best friend, etc.  But i HAD and his reaction was awful.  I didn't think he was a crybaby in the game, it was understandable he was upset about Duncan and the wardens and to be depressed about it, but to act so childish when it came to Loghain made me really reconsider his character all together

We had spared the lives of many "evil" people on our journey, and Alistair was fine with many of them.  A lot of people betray you in the game but Alistair doesn't call for their execution and throw a hissy fit when you don't.

Granted, I am confused why you had to choose between killing Loghain and letting him join the Grey Wardens.  Why are you given the option, with Anora, to lock her up in the tower.  Why did we get no similar choice with Loghain?  And why does Alistair need to be hardened to accept the marriage proposal anyways?  Doesn't that represent him standing up for himself more?  my PC got him to know that I truly cared about him, so why didn't he trust me during that decision?

Ultimately, as Anora states, "You would prevent a VERY fortunate alliance for peace due to this petty act of revenge?  You think you are made out to be king?"

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

There are plenty of non-revenge reasons to kill Loghain. It's not that simple.



I did wish for a third option to have him locked up somewhere or exiled, because I wouldn't mind him oppping up in the future again.

[Sarah1281]

Alistair doesn't need to be hardened to marry Anora unless Loghain lives. Alistair sees Loghain as basically the embodiment of evil and I think he projects a lot of his own survivors guilt (which he touches on a little and which the guardian brings up) onto Loghain.

The reason you only get 'kill Loghain or make him a Warden' is largely because the new monarch has to support your decision. If you let Alistair have the throne by himself, he'll have Loghain killed right there. If Anora is on the throne, however, she wants a reasonable alternative and her father becoming a Grey Warden is a better life for him than being locked up forever (especially if you look at Fort Drakon) so she jumps on that (and might have even spoken with Riordan about it as that's one of the only plausible ways he could have gone from insisting that the Joining couldn't be performed as Loghain and Howe took his material to suddenly knowing where it was and that it hadn't been destroyed). We don't know if Anora is locked up forever as unhardened Alistair just wants her out of the way and hardened Alistair needs her on hand if he dies. After the Blight ends, it's likely she either makes the oath of fealty, is exiled, or is executed.

You don't have to make Alistair king to keep him in your party but Loghain can't live or he leaves. I don't think the Landsmeet decision is solely 'Alistair vs. Loghain' although that certainly can play a part in if he lives. Some people put Anora on the throne just so they can continue with their boyfriend, some want Alistair to be happy, some people think Alistair should get more of a choice of a bride than Anora and so put him on solo...there are a lot of different reasons that aren't necessarily just thinking of doing what's best for Ferelden.

Most of the people who kill Loghain for Alistair think Loghain has crossed too many lines themselves and that he is dangerous and can't be trusted while Alistair has proven loyal. Alistair forcing you to choose just tips the scales even more.

That said, as much as I like Alistair I do not appreciate him putting me on the spot lik that and I usually end up marrying Alistair to Anora and making Loghain rebuild the GW as I have better things to do...

Modifié par Sarah1281, 14 avril 2010 - 10:40 .

[zapkeet]

this is directed to the second post:

How is it not that simple? What other reasons are there to kill him other than revenge?

sure he did some bad stuff, but is killing him going to bring back duncan (who was also a murderer and an all around bad person)? Is it going to prevent Eamon from ever getting poisoned? Is it ever going to prevent what happened at the circle of Magi? No to all of those

So why kill him?

Modifié par zapkeet, 14 avril 2010 - 10:40 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

zapkeet wrote...

How is it not that simple? What other reasons are there to kill him other than revenge?

sure he did some bad stuff, but is killing him going to bring back duncan (who was also a murderer and an all around bad person)? Is it going to prevent Eamon from ever getting poisoned? Is it ever going to prevent what happened at the circle of Magi? No to all of those

So why kill him?

Because a regicide is a dangerous precendent and punishing the one who did is perfectly justifiable from that perspective. Execution is usually the common punishment.

...wait....did I just argue on the Anti-Loghain camp? wow.

[Sarah1281]

Not to mention that he's still really dangerous and influential and could cause problems for you later, especially if his daughter's not on the throne.

[zapkeet]

the question is, Phoenix, is why was it justifiable? just because Execution was the common punishment why should it have been performed? Really what would killing Loghain accomplish? That is the part that confuses me the most

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

zapkeet wrote...

How is it not that simple? What other reasons are there to kill him other than revenge?

sure he did some bad stuff, but is killing him going to bring back duncan (who was also a murderer and an all around bad person)? Is it going to prevent Eamon from ever getting poisoned? Is it ever going to prevent what happened at the circle of Magi? No to all of those

So why kill him?

Because a regicide is a dangerous precendent and punishing the one who did is perfectly justifiable from that perspective. Execution is usually the common punishment.

...wait....did I just argue on the Anti-Loghain camp? wow.

I love you so much more now, KoP.  *huggles KoP to death*

For my character, HNF, there were so many things Loghain did throughout the game that were wrong to her personally, her friends, her order, her country and her people.  Even without Alistair, she would have executed Loghain.  His crimes merited that punhsiment.

As for Alistair's freak out... Ugh, I have detailed this ad nauseum.  Basically, b/c you had done all this stuff with him and were at 100 approval, you stabbed him in the back by letting Loghain live.  If you need it outlines why, I will gladly do so, but it should be fairly obvious.

[zapkeet]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Not to mention that he's still really dangerous and influential and could cause problems for you later, especially if his daughter's not on the throne.

Correct me if i'm wrong but wouldn't most, if not all, his infuence be gone if he lost at the landsmeet?

[Herr Uhl]

zapkeet wrote...

the question is, Phoenix, is why was it justifiable? just because Execution was the common punishment why should it have been performed? Really what would killing Loghain accomplish? That is the part that confuses me the most

It shows his co-conspirators that you are not messing around. Cross the crown and you're gone.

[KnightofPhoenix]

zapkeet wrote...

the question is, Phoenix, is why was it justifiable? just because Execution was the common punishment why should it have been performed? Really what would killing Loghain accomplish? That is the part that confuses me the most

Because when you have law, not enforcing the traditional punishment on those who transgress it is a potential show of weakness. Some would argue that not enforcing the law (and punishments are an intrinsic part of the law) is dangerous.
Execution doesn't offer anything, except show others that transgressors won't evade punishment and that's the basis of every system that seeks to impose its laws.

Now I usually spare Loghain, because my PC is in a position where he could bend the laws all he wants and no one can dare do anything. And I am not in favor of an egualitarian vision of law. I believe in equity.

But I do think the opposite argument is as valid. I just don't agree with it.  

[Caldarin V]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

zapkeet wrote...

How is it not that simple? What other reasons are there to kill him other than revenge?

sure he did some bad stuff, but is killing him going to bring back duncan (who was also a murderer and an all around bad person)? Is it going to prevent Eamon from ever getting poisoned? Is it ever going to prevent what happened at the circle of Magi? No to all of those

So why kill him?

Because a regicide is a dangerous precendent and punishing the one who did is perfectly justifiable from that perspective. Execution is usually the common punishment.

...wait....did I just argue on the Anti-Loghain camp? wow.

Loghain is not a regicide though, and I've said this before... you didn't light the beacon in time, which is why he didn't charge. From that point of view, it's not his fault that Cailan died

Modifié par Caldarin V, 14 avril 2010 - 11:49 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

zapkeet wrote...

this is directed to the second post:

How is it not that simple? What other reasons are there to kill him other than revenge?

sure he did some bad stuff, but is killing him going to bring back duncan (who was also a murderer and an all around bad person)? Is it going to prevent Eamon from ever getting poisoned? Is it ever going to prevent what happened at the circle of Magi? No to all of those

So why kill him?

Knight of Phoenix brought up one very good reason. Regicide, abandoning the king, ect are major acts of treason. Treason is a crime  punishable by death.

To spare his KOPness of having to expand upon logical reasons to kill Loghain, I will continue.

At that point, your character doesn't necessarily know for sure Loghain can be trusted. After all, this guy has spent the last year tearing up the country with civil war, and doing everything to impede you. Thus, there is no reason to think he will be anymore loyal or committed to your cause.

There is also the fact the man has been hounding you personally, seeking your death and sending assassins on you. Depending on your origins, even worse. Not a man you want in your camp that you sleep in at night.

In both cases, Loghain is a potential liability that must be removed.

On the otherhand, there are rational, non-emotive reasons to spare him as well. He was a great general and renowned warrior, he is a revered hero, he has alot of wartime experience, and no matter what, if he survives the joining, he's trapped anyway.

In this case, Loghain is a poetential asset to be aquired.

It comes down to, for me, depending on which character I play, to whether they see him as asset or liability. That is the most detatched way of looking at the situation.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
I love you so much more now, KoP.  *huggles KoP to death*

This is just a one time thing, I assure you

[KnightofPhoenix]

Caldarin V wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

zapkeet wrote...

How is it not that simple? What other reasons are there to kill him other than revenge?

sure he did some bad stuff, but is killing him going to bring back duncan (who was also a murderer and an all around bad person)? Is it going to prevent Eamon from ever getting poisoned? Is it ever going to prevent what happened at the circle of Magi? No to all of those

So why kill him?

Because a regicide is a dangerous precendent and punishing the one who did is perfectly justifiable from that perspective. Execution is usually the common punishment.

...wait....did I just argue on the Anti-Loghain camp? wow.

Loghain is not a regicide though, and I've said this before... you didn't light the beacon in time, which is why he didn't charge. From that point of view, it's not his fault that Cailan died

Yes, I am in the camp of people who believe it's mostly Cailan's idiocy that led him to his death.

But, from a certain perspective, people can believe Loghain is responsable for Cailan's death and it would be valid. I wouldn't and still do not agree with it.

[LadyDamodred]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
On the otherhand, there are rational, non-emotive reasons to spare him as well. He was a great general and renowned warrior, he is a revered hero, he has alot of wartime experience, and no matter what, if he survives the joining, he's trapped anyway.

I find it ironic that my HN nobles can all clearly see the reasons why Loghain should be allowed to live, and even understand why he did some of the stuff he did.  The ironic part is that the same part of them that allows them to see and understand that is the part that cannot do it.  They were Bryce Cousland's child, growing up on war stories and legends.  Loghain was a hero to them.  And during the course of the game, he destroyed all of that.  By the time the Landsmeet rolls around, Loghain is no longer the man he once was.  They take all they know (no meta-gaming) and weigh it against what happened.

And then they give him to Alistair wrapped up in a shiny bow. 

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
I love you so much more now, KoP.  *huggles KoP to death*

This is just a one time thing, I assure you

But it will live on forever.  The intarwebs do not forget. 

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 14 avril 2010 - 10:57 .

[Gilsa]

zapkeet wrote...

On that note Alistair's reaction made me rage.  I mean, it would have been understandable if I hadn't of had his approval rating at 100, done his side quests, became his best friend, etc.  But i HAD and his reaction was awful.  I didn't think he was a crybaby in the game, it was understandable he was upset about Duncan and the wardens and to be depressed about it, but to act so childish when it came to Loghain made me really reconsider his character all together

A few things to consider from a different perspective:
1. Being at 100 should ideally make this all the worse because you are his best friend. You theoretically should be having his back in this situation so it'd blow his mind that you're not backing him up.
2. DG has said that Alistair's hatred of Loghain corrupted Alistair much in the same way that Loghain's hatred of Orlais corrupted him. This was intentional in the writing. Consider how many people were gun-ho for revenge on Howe as human nobles. It's not that much different.
3. DG also said that Alistair, in time, would come to regret his actions at Landsmeet and for walking out when he was most needed in the Blight.

I know those things aren't obvious at Landsmeet, but everything really is happening in the heat of the moment. For what it's worth, my character was in a romance with Alistair when she spared Loghain. (I was thinking at th time that I'd gain a general and perhaps his army to help along with the three treaties.) It's a rough moment, but understandable for Alistair and for my character in the choice she made. I just hate that it ended so badly like that.

[Sarah1281]

zapkeet wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Not to mention that he's still really dangerous and influential and could cause problems for you later, especially if his daughter's not on the throne.

Correct me if i'm wrong but wouldn't most, if not all, his infuence be gone if he lost at the landsmeet?

After the Landsmeet he's force to step down as regent and might be stripped of his title (we really don't get why this is the case as being a GW doesnt stop you from being king/queen or teryn/teryna yourself and had their been a Landsmeet when Maric died at Bryce lost - not bloody likely - then presumbly he wouldn't automatically lose all of his holdings) but that doesn't mean that his men would instantly abandon him, that he couldn't start a rebellion somewere, or that he couldn't - at the very least - spread dissent that could be disastrous at the time of the Blight.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
And then they give him to Alistair wrapped up in a shiny bow. 

Cruel.

I never let Alistair kill him. Only I do it, since I am the only one who can claim to be Loghain's equal / superior.

 

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
And then they give him to Alistair wrapped up in a shiny bow. 

Cruel.

I never let Alistair kill him. Only I do it, since I am the only one who can claim to be Loghain's equal / superior.
 

How can you breathe up there?

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
And then they give him to Alistair wrapped up in a shiny bow. 

Cruel.

I never let Alistair kill him. Only I do it, since I am the only one who can claim to be Loghain's equal / superior.

 

But I like giving my companions presents!  And I can't really think of a better one for my future husband. 

[GavrielKay]

From an RP perspective, my characters killed Loghain because:



1) He abandoned Cailan. Sure, Cailan was arrogant, but he was the king and Loghain's son-in-law as well. Loghain had a duty to try to save the king, at the very least to go through with the plan to try to win the battle. Walking away when even his second in command was shocked tells me he was purposefully leaving his king to die. Given her shock, I am not at all convinced that timely lighting of the beacon was an issue.



2) He took in Howe and rewarded him for his treachery.



3) Even if he had for some reason left Cailan on the battlefield to save Ferelden from the king's stupidity, that doesn't explain blaming the Wardens and hiring mercenaries to kill them.



4) He allied with slavers. This is Evil.



5) He contracted a maleficar to kill Arl Eamon. This is Evil.



Whatever Loghain might have been before his fear of Orlais took over no longer counts. He decides what is best for Ferelden is for him to be in charge and do some horrible things. For these crimes and to prevent any further threat from him, he deserves summary execution and he gets it from all of my Wardens.

[zapkeet]

INteresting and slightly valid points everyone, there are just two points I want to say





1. About the entire "it's just like alistair letting Howe live and wanting to join" I would be a hypocrite if I said that I was against that. Killing Howe wouldn't have brought my family back and if i could have spared him, i would have. Same thing if it was real life, I think it would be disrespecting my family by killing someone (also a brother, husband, father, cousin, etc. despite his evilness) just for my family members who couldn't come back. Don't get me wrong, i'd have a major "you give me a reason and I won't hesitate to kill you" viewpoint, but I wouldn't kill him for the sake of revenge



2. Why do people say it's justifiable for Loghain to be killed because he killed so many grey wardens and they say it wasn't justifiable for Loghain to be doing what he was doing because of the Orlesians? the Orlesians had killed his father, raped and killed his mom when he was a child, performed awful deeds to the citizens, etc. Now, i'm not saying either is justified (killing Loghain or his actions) but isn't it a double standard to say one is justified over the other?

[Sarah1281]

3) Even if he had for some reason left Cailan on the battlefield to save Ferelden from the king's stupidity, that doesn't explain blaming the Wardens and hiring mercenaries to kill them.

He's afraid they're going to move against him since he declared them outlaws and he mostly just goes along with Howe's decision to kill them. He does not believe the Wardens are necessary to stop the Blight (and if it hadn't been for the whole soul-destruction thing the Wardens don't tell anyone about they wouldn't be.



Since the Wardens are so new to Ferelden after their long exile, they are mostly from Orlais and given Orlais and Ferelden's recent history, I can't blame him for being wary of letting them in the borders. I haven't read The Calling, but Loghain met and travelled with GW before and presumably something there convinced him that Wardens were bad news.

5) He contracted a maleficar to kill Arl Eamon. This is Evil.

He didn't try to have him killed, just poisoned to get out of the way when he challened Cailan later (at a Landsmeet perhaps?) because as a very popular Arl and Cailan's uncle, he was the King's strongest supporter.

[zapkeet]

GavrielKay wrote...

From an RP perspective, my characters killed Loghain because:

1) He abandoned Cailan. Sure, Cailan was arrogant, but he was the king and Loghain's son-in-law as well. Loghain had a duty to try to save the king, at the very least to go through with the plan to try to win the battle. Walking away when even his second in command was shocked tells me he was purposefully leaving his king to die. Given her shock, I am not at all convinced that timely lighting of the beacon was an issue.

2) He took in Howe and rewarded him for his treachery.

3) Even if he had for some reason left Cailan on the battlefield to save Ferelden from the king's stupidity, that doesn't explain blaming the Wardens and hiring mercenaries to kill them.

4) He allied with slavers. This is Evil.

5) He contracted a maleficar to kill Arl Eamon. This is Evil.

Whatever Loghain might have been before his fear of Orlais took over no longer counts. He decides what is best for Ferelden is for him to be in charge and do some horrible things. For these crimes and to prevent any further threat from him, he deserves summary execution and he gets it from all of my Wardens.

1. it's mentioned in RTO (and i believe the lead author said this as well) that if Loghain had charged he and his men would have died, pretty much everyone (including Cailen) knew they were fighting a nearly suicidal mission.

2. This is true, but he wasn't directly responsible for HOwe's crimes

3. Duncan didn't want them to leave Ostagar and tried to prevent Loghain from doing so.  Also they were late at lighting the beacon, in a way it WAS their fault, a very minor one, but still

4.  If you question him on this he actually thought he was doing the right thing.  the slaves in Tevinter, apparently, have a much better living condition than in Fereldan and they can much more easily get out of being a second class citizen

5. It was meant to put him in a coma until after the landsmeet