146 réponses à ce sujet

[Caldarin V]

Meliorist13 wrote...

I have read the majority of this thread, not the entire thing, but one
thing stands out to me, that I did not see anyone touch upon.

This concerns the 'late' lighting of the beacon.  Logain tells Cailan at the
meeting with Duncan and the new wardens, that he has stationed men
at the tower and to let them light the beacon.  *FLAG*

Cailan says no; to let the Grey Wardens do it, and Loghain acquiesces but is
not happy about it.  My thought here, after I saw him abandon the
battle, was that he knew the tower was/had  a weakness, he deliberately
understaffed the defense there, and that it was his plan all along
to abandon Cailan on the battlefield.

Was the lighting of the beacon really late?  Or did the lighting itself throw a
monkey wrench in the works in that it was never supposed to be lit according
to his plan.  He says to hell with it and abandons the field anyway.  Loghain
had nothing to lose and in his mind, no one to dispute him, because he
'assumes' that everyone is going to be annihilated.

Your thoughts???

*sorry, not trying to hijack, but I think the question is pertinent to the subject of this thread*

I can see where you're going with this, but part of being a good general is knowing when your battle's well and lost and knowing when to retreat. Loghain made a tactical decision; that was his best friends son (and son in law). The way I see his thought process going is this: Loghain trusted his men to light the beacon, they failed to do so in time, and the only survivors were the new Grey Wardens (especially you; the new guy).

Given how paranoid Loghain is, and how he is convinced that Orlais is hell bent on invading Ferelden, he could have taken you for Orlesian spies, lighting the beacon late so he and the rest of Ferelden's army would charge to their doom

I'm not saying he's correct, but I"m trying to understand his thought process; Cailan was his best friends son, and his son in law, whatever issues they were having, I don't think Loghain wanted him dead (until AFTER he found those letters in RTO, but he didn't know about that at the time)
 

[Thomas9321]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

zapkeet wrote...

How is it not that simple? What other reasons are there to kill him other than revenge?

sure he did some bad stuff, but is killing him going to bring back duncan (who was also a murderer and an all around bad person)? Is it going to prevent Eamon from ever getting poisoned? Is it ever going to prevent what happened at the circle of Magi? No to all of those

So why kill him?

Because a regicide is a dangerous precendent and punishing the one who did is perfectly justifiable from that perspective. Execution is usually the common punishment.

...wait....did I just argue on the Anti-Loghain camp? wow.

Well, thats a sign of the apocalypse folks. Prepare your umbrellas for the inevitable rain of fire that comes.

I think letting Loghain live is a strange thing, people never seem to be motivated by mercy when they do it. There's always much more to it than that. Probably because Loghain's crimes are rather lofty and people think they need more justification than that. That said, I normally kill it, but I and my characters always feel bad about it.

[GavrielKay]

I haven't played Ostagar in a while so I don't remember the cut scene clearly, but I wonder how Loghain would know that the beacon had been lit too late? If he was in a position to see the battle and know when the right time to attack was, then he should have just done it. No reason for a good general to wait for a signal that he doesn't need. The cut scene does not show him gathering the troops for the attack, rushing over a hillside and then going "oh sh$t there's too many of them!"

[Bowie Hawkins]

Caldarin V wrote...

Loghain is not a regicide though, and I've said this before... you didn't light the beacon in time, which is why he didn't charge. From that point of view, it's not his fault that Cailan died

If it was a matter of not lighting the beacon in time, then Logain would have called the retreat before you light the beacon, rather than the instant you do so.

[Bowie Hawkins]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

To say motive doesn't matter is the biggest bull**** of all time.

I would say that arguing that motive trumps everything else is a bigger pile of cattle byproduct.

Logain's motive is protecting Ferelden against Orlais. The problem with that is that the actions his motives motivate him to take actually make Ferelden more vulnerable to an Orlesian invasion than otherwise, because his abandonment of the King, his poisoning of Eamon, and his having given his blessing to Howe's treachery against several noble families are leading Ferelden toward a civil war as it is being invaded by the Blight.

Logain has become a mad dog, and mad dogs get put down. Although, now that I'm playing through as a human noble (and can therefore make a bid for the throne myself), the justice that I will see done is to have Logain make the ultimate sacrifice by striking the killing blow on the archdemon. This way he gets to save the nation he loves from the Blight, clear the stain that he put on his name, and allow me to avoid giving Morrigan control over a being with the soul of an old god.  

[GavrielKay]

Bowie Hawkins wrote...

Logain's motive is protecting Ferelden against Orlais. The problem with that is that the actions his motives motivate him to take actually make Ferelden more vulnerable to an Orlesian invasion than otherwise, because his abandonment of the King, his poisoning of Eamon, and his having given his blessing to Howe's treachery against several noble families are leading Ferelden toward a civil war as it is being invaded by the Blight.

This.  Loghain's actions put Ferelden in far more danger from several vectors.  If you truly want to argue that he's doing it "for Ferelden" then you should admit he had followed paranoid all the way into crazy.  Only a madman would take those actions thinking he's making anything better.

[Meliorist13]

Duncan's final memory is seeing a lit beacon and the realization that Loghain betrayed them. "nuff said".

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Meliorist13 wrote...

Duncan's final memory is seeing a lit beacon and the realization that Loghain betrayed them. "nuff said".

Interestingly, that for me was one of the most heartbreaking moments in the game, and one that often sticks in my mind when the decision to execute Loghain comes. The look on Duncan's face as he see's the beacon, like he's thinking "Where the **** is Loghain?".

*sniff*

[Sarah1281]

Really? He looked up just as the beacon was being lit and assuming the charge wasn't supposed to be instantaneous he died thinking that Loghain was on his way.

[Aisynia]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Meliorist13 wrote...

Duncan's final memory is seeing a lit beacon and the realization that Loghain betrayed them. "nuff said".

Interestingly, that for me was one of the most heartbreaking moments in the game, and one that often sticks in my mind when the decision to execute Loghain comes. The look on Duncan's face as he see's the beacon, like he's thinking "Where the **** is Loghain?".

*sniff*

Duncan got what he deserved.

[Aisynia]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Really? He looked up just as the beacon was being lit and assuming the charge wasn't supposed to be instantaneous he died thinking that Loghain was on his way.

No I have to agree with them, I always had the impression that by the time he looked up, at least a couple of minutes had passed and that he KNEW what had happened.

Not that I care, I really dislike Duncan.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Really? He looked up just as the beacon was being lit and assuming the charge wasn't supposed to be instantaneous he died thinking that Loghain was on his way.

he was looking around, right after he killed the Ogre, and saw that the men were being overwhelmed by darkspawn, being outnumbered. It is then he looked up at the beacon and frowned, like "WTF? Where are you, loggy, hello, we are getting our asses kicked". And then he looks ahead and we see the hurlock axe-slash. Game over.

The first time I saw that scene, it broke my heart. Duncan looking up wondering where the help that would never come was.

[Sarah1281]

I see. It's kind of hard to tell how fast these things are happening because it cut over to him immediately after Loghain watched the beacon light and chose to retreat, which took less than a minute.

[LadyDamodred]

Personally, I think Duncan knew they were screwed, and when he saw the beacon, he knew that at least his recruits still lived. ( ._.)

[Highdragonslayer]

zapkeet wrote...

the question is, Phoenix, is why was it justifiable? just because Execution was the common punishment why should it have been performed? Really what would killing Loghain accomplish? That is the part that confuses me the most

Justice basically, if someone kills and r*apes your family your going to want them dead, because you want to see the person who did that get his punishment. Executing someone for their crimes doesn't really accomplish much, but it's still necessary.

[Herr Uhl]

Highdragonslayer wrote...

Justice basically, if someone kills and r*apes your family your going to want them dead, because you want to see the person who did that get his punishment. Executing someone for their crimes doesn't really accomplish much, but it's still necessary.

So, the countries without death penalty don't work. Most curious.

[danielxrefused]

Personally I prefer to roleplay stories of vengeance and tragedy rather than sticking to my morals the whole time. I chose the human noble storyline, so as my character journeyed through the game she made decisions based upon her own morals when it did not interfere with her revenge, but Loghain's act of betrayal and assocation with Howe brought him his death.

Personally I thought Loghain deserved exile or maybe life in jail at the least, while an execution would also deem good enough, however I didn't really like the way it was done in the game. Would have been nice to get more options here.

Modifié par danielxrefused, 17 avril 2010 - 08:32 .

[Meliorist13]

Duncan has his faults. But he is devoted to stopping the blight and as far as I'm concerned the only one who truly had Ferelden's best interest at heart.

[Costin_Razvan]

Duncan didn't give a rats arse about Fereldan, he only cared about the Blight. That is the difference.

Thomas9321: I actually let him live from my very first playthrough because of mercy. Hell my first response to when he yielded was: I accept your surrender. I didn't do it so I could get a new grey warden. I did it because I do not kill people when there is an alternative, and that is how I make my MAIN Playthroughs, the ones that I feel the most related to.

I do not believe in the Death Sentence. Hell I do not believe in the prison system in general. It has not and will not end crime on this planet. To end it we must change the way humanity is : Aka not being the selfish pricks that we are.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 18 avril 2010 - 05:26 .

[Caldarin V]

you ever watched Serenity?

"I'm gonna show you a world without sin?" what happens when you try to force people to not be humans

[Costin_Razvan]

You are comparing brainwashing people via a drug to a proposed idea of educating people through at least 4-5 generations.

[asaiasai]

I think on the Loghain defense as my dad used to say the acorn does not fall to far from the tree, so both Allistair and Calain both had misguided romantic notions that were so out of touch with reality it skewed thier view. Allistair believes and rightly so that becomming a warden is an honor, but he seems to forget that the wardens take help where ever they can find it. The wardens are not concerned with who you were, Daveth will hint that Dincan saved him from something unpleasant, probably a hangmans noose. The wardens are reformed sinners as opposed to the silly romantic notion that they are saints. It maybe true after the joining, but that changes you, binds you to the DS, binds you to the wardens, no one in the wardens except for a small handfull probably were like Jory, who chickened out at the end anyway. Awakenings even further provides support for this viewpoint, Anders is an unrepentant apostate, Velena needs a fact checker, Sigrun is a deserter, Oghren is a drunk, Nate is a Howe and a thief, and the PC origin is not a spotless one either. To pass arbitrary judgment on Loghain is hypocritical considering what you know, have seen, and done. I do it both ways but when i allow Loghain to live i am more pissed at Allistair at that moment than i ever was at Loghain, at least with Loghain it is bussiness, Allistair's betrayal is personal.

Asai

Modifié par asaiasai, 18 avril 2010 - 10:13 .

[BHRamsay]

asaiasai wrote...

when i allow Loghain to live i am more pissed at Allistair at that moment than i ever was at Loghain, at least with Loghain it is bussiness, Allistair's betrayal is personal.

Asai

So Alister is betraying you -- by standing up for himself and his beliefs which (assuming you hardened him,) is what you wanted him to do.

From my POV killing Loghain is just business... the man went bat-**** crazy, has you hunted like an animal and besmirches the honour of no small amount of people including his own daughter , The Queen who publicly supported his BS, engineered a coup, made several questioable landgrabs while straining relations with pretty much the only allies Ferelden could turn to thanks to his locking the borders --- There is no senario in which having this genius watching my back for any reason other then as archdemon bait is a good move? 

[Trelow-LMG]

It was a hard call for my DN, given his history and his overarching belief in redeeming oneself. Given this circumstance, He didn't feel it was his call to make. As he understood the throne rightly belonged to Allistar, and differed the decision to him, as would be the crownbearers right.

[Xandurpein]

I think one of the reasons people get so passionate about discussing the merit of killing Loghain is that most of us do like to think ourselves as playing morally 'good' characters, and there are lots of  reasons to kill him, but most of them are much more practical than moral, unless it's simply pure vengeance. I'm not saying vengeance isn't a fair reason. I just don't rate vengeance as a particularily good or positive emotion.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 18 avril 2010 - 06:13 .