146 réponses à ce sujet

[BHRamsay]

If you prefer a sneaky way to have your cake and eat it too you could offer Loghain mercy let Alister have his initial freak-out THEN you kill him.

You are no longer directly responsible for Loghain's death since your only doing what Alister wants which, since he is going to be King -- makes sense.

Loghain dies without Anora turning on either of you while the PC's sense of justice and fair play is more or less satisfied... assuming you care about such things.

[Thalorin1919]

Xandurpein wrote...

I think one of the reasons people get so passionate about discussing the merit of killing Loghain is that most of us do like to think ourselves as playing morally 'good' characters, and there are lots of  reasons to kill him, but most of them are much more practical than moral, unless it's simply pure vengeance. I'm not saying vengeance isn't a fair reason. I just don't rate vengeance as a particularily good or positive emotion.

I dont kill Loghain out of 'vengeance'. I kill him for his crimes.

I was mad that he left Duncan, Cailan, and all the others to die. But Loghain needed to die for several reasons I though. Selling the elves into slavery, butchering nobles and hanging commoners, sending a blood mage to kill Arl Eamon, trying to kill ME via assassins and mercenarys.

Personally I cant even why there is a debate about this. This guy went bat**** crazy, and has done far more wrong then worse. I dont even see the point in 'redeeming' him when it costs you the person who has stuck with you through and through, and it just as capable as Loghain.

@ Costin_Razvan, How is prison not ending crime, or slowing it at all? Is there a better way? What, do you want them to go with a slap on the wrist and tell them to redeem thereselves for raping someone and then killing them?

That is possibly the most....I can't even describe it, and I wont debate it. I just got a migraine.

Modifié par Thalorin1919, 18 avril 2010 - 07:18 .

[Xandurpein]

asaiasai wrote...

I think on the Loghain defense as my dad used to say the acorn does not fall to far from the tree, so both Allistair and Calain both had misguided romantic notions that were so out of touch with reality it skewed thier view. Allistair believes and rightly so that becomming a warden is an honor, but he seems to forget that the wardens take help where ever they can find it. The wardens are not concerned with who you were, Daveth will hint that Dincan saved him from something unpleasant, probably a hangmans noose. The wardens are reformed sinners as opposed to the silly romantic notion that they are saints. It maybe true after the joining, but that changes you, binds you to the DS, binds you to the wardens, no one in the wardens except for a small handfull probably were like Jory, who chickened out at the end anyway. Awakenings even further provides support for this viewpoint, Anders is an unrepentant apostate, Velena needs a fact checker, Sigrun is a deserter, Oghren is a drunk, Nate is a Howe and a thief, and the PC origin is not a spotless one either. To pass arbitrary judgment on Loghain is hypocritical considering what you know, have seen, and done. I do it both ways but when i allow Loghain to live i am more pissed at Allistair at that moment than i ever was at Loghain, at least with Loghain it is bussiness, Allistair's betrayal is personal.

Asai

It's also quite refreshing to compare Orgin's with your own choices as Arl of Amaranthine in Awakening facing possible rebellion and peasant revolt. Things become much more grey then somehow. Do you take hostages? Do you kill the 'obviously' guilty knight? Do you protect the peasants, trade routes or the city?

Loghain's biggest crime is really that he costs you Alistair.

[LadyDamodred]

Xandurpein wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

I think on the Loghain defense as my dad used to say the acorn does not fall to far from the tree, so both Allistair and Calain both had misguided romantic notions that were so out of touch with reality it skewed thier view. Allistair believes and rightly so that becomming a warden is an honor, but he seems to forget that the wardens take help where ever they can find it. The wardens are not concerned with who you were, Daveth will hint that Dincan saved him from something unpleasant, probably a hangmans noose. The wardens are reformed sinners as opposed to the silly romantic notion that they are saints. It maybe true after the joining, but that changes you, binds you to the DS, binds you to the wardens, no one in the wardens except for a small handfull probably were like Jory, who chickened out at the end anyway. Awakenings even further provides support for this viewpoint, Anders is an unrepentant apostate, Velena needs a fact checker, Sigrun is a deserter, Oghren is a drunk, Nate is a Howe and a thief, and the PC origin is not a spotless one either. To pass arbitrary judgment on Loghain is hypocritical considering what you know, have seen, and done. I do it both ways but when i allow Loghain to live i am more pissed at Allistair at that moment than i ever was at Loghain, at least with Loghain it is bussiness, Allistair's betrayal is personal.

Asai

It's also quite refreshing to compare Orgin's with your own choices as Arl of Amaranthine in Awakening facing possible rebellion and peasant revolt. Things become much more grey then somehow. Do you take hostages? Do you kill the 'obviously' guilty knight? Do you protect the peasants, trade routes or the city?

Loghain's biggest crime is really that he costs you Alistair.

And that is a weighty crime indeed.    I think his biggest crime for my canon pc (HNF) is that be betrays country and king repeatedly.  She gives him to Alistair b/c she understands the need for closure on what he's been through.  But if Alistair had refused to execute Loghain, she would have done it herself.  People will always weight Loghain's crimes differently, but I don't think anyone denies that he committed them.

[eucatastrophe]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Duncan ... he only cared about the Blight. That is the difference.

Which is ultimately in the best interests of Ferelden...

[Unrefined-Nemesis]

 For those who have read the books would know why Loghain did what he did in the game.

The Orlesians came and conquered Fereldan with a harsh and strict manner, Fereldans where made into 3rd or 4th class citizens regardless of their nobility, they were treated worse than how I would treat my Mabari dog *seriously I hate the dog*. Loghain's mother was raped in front of him and his father then utterly killed without mercy. His father recently knighted was killed by the Orlesians while helping Maric to escape.Loghain and the ones who suffered under the Orlesian rule lived and experienced this while your character was safely waiting for his or her parents to mate to produce you. Loghain has every reason to hate the Orlesians even after 30 years because its still fresh in his mind. 30 years is not enough time to mend the wounds of a prisoner of war especially after what he's been through with Maric.

The reason why he fears the Grey Wardens because in the Calling, Maric was tricked by the Grey Wardens who supported the Orlesian empire and Loghain had to rescue Maric. This is why Loghain was a shaky relationship with the Grey Wardens.

If Cailan had allowed the Orlesians to enter Fereldan once again, would they leave I certainly would not believe so as Leliana way of describing the Bards describes how bad the Orlesians are. Furthermore it was implied that Cailan was having an affair with the Orlesian Empress in Return to Ostagar and in Ostagar before Cailan died, Loghain and Cailan were arguing about something and this could be it. Cailan was about to hand over his nation to the Orlesians and by his experience and Maric wouldn't allow this to happen if he was still alive.

Can you blame a man for having a fear, imagine if you survived World War II or lived during that period would you forgive the Japanese or Germans that easily if you were living in that time period.

As for Cailan's death, Loghain is not to blame, Loghain DID not want Cailan on the battlefield but Cailan insisted so, It is by his own seer stupidity that he died and our warden and Alistar is to blame for lighting the signal not on time.

Sure Loghain's crime such as poisoning Arl Eamon, Slavery trades and etc are punishable by crime but this is the man who freed your nation is the first place and he did this to save it again from the blight.

Alistar was never meant to be king in the first place, He is a half-elf and if anyone knew his true birth, this would have sparked a major civil war to get him of the throne as we all know how people react to elves in game.

In my eyes Loghain deserves to live and Maric would agree so. For defending the nation takes priority over who needs to be king and etc.

[Xandurpein]

LadyDamodred wrote...

 I think his biggest crime for my canon pc (HNF) is that be betrays country and king repeatedly.  She gives him to Alistair b/c she understands the need for closure on what he's been through.  But if Alistair had refused to execute Loghain, she would have done it herself.  People will always weight Loghain's crimes differently, but I don't think anyone denies that he committed them.

I think that you'll find that with pretty much anything you can think of, you can find someone on this forum willing to deny it's the truth. There is just so much that is up to interpretation.

Did Loghain betray his King and his country? Loghain did plan to betray his King, although in the end we don't know for sure he really did betray Cailan at Ostagar or if it was lost anyway. It is just conjecture and opinion. I think that in his mind Loghain planned to betray Cailan to save Fereldan. Whether he was justified or just delusional in thinking so is also just a matter of conjecture and opinion.

Loghain made a lot of really bad decisions, enough to make it necessary to depose him. But the only decisions that seems without a doubt criminal is selling elves as slaves, and poisoning Eamon, although it appears that the slave trade is more seen as a political scandal than as an actual criminal offence by the Landsmeet.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 18 avril 2010 - 09:15 .

[CalJones]

@Unrefined Nemesis - we don't know for sure that Alistair is Fiona's son. It's possible, certainly, but not a given. Nonetheless, he is still a bastard - but since Maric and Cailan are dead, he may well be the only chance of carrying on the Theirin bloodline (if one views such things as important, which Eamon and a lot of others do).



I don't disagree with your other sentiments, though.

[Sarah1281]

Alistar was never meant to be king in the first place, He is a half-elf and if anyone knew his true birth, this would have sparked a major civil war to get him of the throne as we all know how people react to elves in game.

The official story Alistair knows is that his mother was a serving girl and no one who hasn't read the books knows who Fiona is. Besides, there's no such thing as a 'half-elf.' Someone with an elf parent and a human parent is human. The nobles would still pitch a fit, though.

[LadyDamodred]

I would also to see some noble walk up to him and tell him he needs to get off the throne. Methinks that conversation would end poorly.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xandurpein wrote...
Loghain made a lot of really bad decisions, enough to make it necessary to depose him. But the only decisions that seems without a doubt criminal is selling elves as slaves, and poisoning Eamon, although it appears that the slave trade is more seen as a political scandal than as an actual criminal offence by the Landsmeet.

Criminal as in breaking Ferelden's law, yes. There is no doubt about that.
Criminal as in immoral, then no I don't see them as immoral. So it's not without a doubt for me.

[Costin_Razvan]

There is only one noble at the landsmeet who cares about the slave trade, and that is the same guy whose vote you can get anyway if you save his son.

[sylvanaerie]

They all care (it IS against Ferelden law) its just there are bigger issues they are concerned with (blight, nobles being kidnapped/tortured/poisoned) so its not as huge an issue with them as something that strikes closer to home.

[Costin_Razvan]

Rofl, you honestly think that all politicians care when the law is broken, just like that.

[LadyDamodred]

There's also the point that the game cannot show every noble objecting to every crime. I would say the majority of the nobles would be shocked at outright slavery in Ferelden, regardless of how they see elves in general.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...

There's also the point that the game cannot show every noble objecting to every crime. I would say the majority of the nobles would be shocked at outright slavery in Ferelden, regardless of how they see elves in general.

I wouldn't say shocked. But most of them do express dissaproval or at the very least uneasiness yes. IT's not only one person.
But it's only one thing. It does not generate enough outrage for the Landsmeet to immediately vote against Loghain.

[Costin_Razvan]

Perhaps, perhaps not, but from that point to them caring enough to do something about it is a very long journey.

[sylvanaerie]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Rofl, you honestly think that all politicians care when the law is broken, just like that.

Yes I think they do care but there are other issues they care more about that hit closer to home for them.  And you don't have to be so rude expressing yourself. Other people's opinions may be just as valid as yours.

[Mirthadrond]

Killing Loghain is about justice, plain and simple.

The fact he yields only makes his death honorable, it does not forgive his crimes.

In fact, had Loghain done his duty in the first place, he'd have died next to his king where he belonged.

As it turned out, his traitors death was much more merciful than it should have been. We don't tolerate treason in Fereldan, and his death shows noone is above the law or the King.

[Addai]

Unrefined-Nemesis wrote...
Can you blame a man for having a fear, imagine if you survived World War II or lived during that period would you forgive the Japanese or Germans that easily if you were living in that time period.

Yes, I can blame him.  Consider Loghain's father.  He had as much reason to hate the Orlesians, but what would he say about what Loghain did?

In my eyes Loghain deserves to live and Maric would agree so. For defending the nation takes priority over who needs to be king and etc.

Consider what Maric did to the nobles who betrayed his mother.  He didn't like it, but he did what had to be done, and I am sure that in the end he would do what had to be done with Loghain, too.  In fact, judging by what Loghain does if he wins the Landsmeet, it's what Loghain would tell him to do.

Modifié par Addai67, 22 avril 2010 - 08:39 .