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Musings about ME 2, my hopes for ME 3.


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#1
Torrential

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As I put a nuke through the eye of the final boss, and I realize that it’s over, I also realized what an experience it was.  I wanted to write this somewhere, to thank the devs and give a few opinions for what its worth.

Having played the whole thing now I can say it was a first class story, and the guy who designed the ending could tell film directors a thing or two. I’ve been playing games since the 80’s and I would say the ending was one of the best I’ve come across. For a character driven game, it’ll be hard to top the impact of the situation the characters find themselves in;  looking to ME3, I think the only thing that could top it, would be a last stand type scenario at Earths front door.

My hopes for ME3 are a choice between a Cerberus path, and the Alliance path, after 1 and 2 it’s set up so perfectly for that now, icing on the cake would be – 1) Alliance, 2) Cerberus, 3) Yourself / Full Renegade in the choices, but I digress :)

I really appreciated the updates on characters and missions from the first ME1; it was a very nice touch that so many game sequels miss, bringing back cameo characters, and minor parts was also a golden touch that tied you into the world all the more.

I only have minor quibbles with a few things really. I think the Ash romance interest needed some more gametime, DLC would be great but failing that if she is not in ME3, something to do the character some justice that isn’t just an argument, then an email would be great. To be honest I think her abandoning, and cutting Shepard off completely was a bit out of character.

Small quests/assignments with only one Paragon outcome are not very satisfying to complete. There were not lots of these, but there were a few. Why not just stick in a quick text option to keep an item, or sell information etc for money, simple, easy and gives the player more options while keeping the rewards the same.

Character development wasn’t terrible, simply because we had a wide choice of characters. However characters being limited to 2 appearances could do with some improvement (yes I bought the dlc too :D). The inventory systems in both 1 and 2 had their drawbacks and benefits, but did their job fine.

Being thrust into Cerebus at the start took some adjustments after ME1, I imagine it would have been harder had I played a Paragon character more often; I think a mission to ease players into the whole your dead – now you work for Cerebus, would have been more smooth. Maybe a mission where you transition from the Alliance to Cerebus, actually playing out the first Normandy’s destruction would have been more welcome, though I do also really appreciate being able to speak to my former alliance commanders, nice touch again :).

 As you can see I rate games from the story and characters, and in that aspect ME2 was strong. The combat was of course more satisfying than ME 1 largely, the AI could use some more retreat/hold ground programming, as falling back was often the key to killing tough opponents. I hope Jack is back in ME 3, or at least gets a decent conclusion, as she was my favorite (tormented) companion.

That is about it, two thumbs up to the people that designed, and created this masterpiece.

-edited out some of the nonesense, the forum messed up the format again :/

Modifié par Torrential, 15 avril 2010 - 06:39 .


#2
smudboy

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Torrential wrote...
Having played the whole thing now I can say it was a first class story, and the guy who designed the ending could tell film directors a thing or two. blah blah blah some stuff.

First.  class.  Story.

I know I could tell him a thing or two...

(psst: ME2 is not a character driven narrative.)

#3
kraidy1117

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Oh ****, heres Smudboy.......................

#4
Tyrannosaurus Rex

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Meh, the main story in ME2 was weak to say the least.

#5
Torrential

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smudboy wrote...

Torrential wrote...
Having played the whole thing now I can say it was a first class story, and the guy who designed the ending could tell film directors a thing or two. blah blah blah some stuff.

First.  class.  Story.

I know I could tell him a thing or two...

(psst: ME2 is not a character driven narrative.)


Interesting take on the ending, could you expand on why? I ask as I thoroughly enjoyed having the building climatic ending as the ultimate reason for playing the game, the choices meaning who lives and dies.

Developing the character loyalty was a great addition, and of course it was a character driven story, the characters very lives depended on your actions ;). There is still a plot of course, but TIM, shepard, and his team are in the driving seat throughout the gameplay.

As to it being a first class story, it was, I was wrapped up in it from beginning to end. If you want a more specific response, or indeed have one, by all means share your thoughts. The side missions I even found engaging, which for me was the icing on the cake.

Lizardviking wrote...

Meh, the main story in ME2 was weak to say the least.


Again I would ask why? :), I haven't heard any reasons yet, I can't really call you on it or agree if you don't share. I guess it may be because I enjoy character driven stories, rather than plot driven ones, see above ;)

Modifié par Torrential, 15 avril 2010 - 06:35 .


#6
Bucky_McLachlan

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Torrential wrote...
-edited out some of the nonesense

Oh well you left about 95% of it in there.

#7
Nightwriter

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Did we play the same game? I feel confused.

#8
Torrential

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Again no specifics :), I can't really respond to your comments either way. If anyone has any reasoning behind their opinions, by all means please share it.

#9
BaladasDemnevanni

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Apparently, we forum posters are no longer allowed have our own opinions judging by the reactions of some.

#10
Bucky_McLachlan

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You're allowed to have an opinion but that doesn't mean you are capable of making a well reasoned argument to support it.

Modifié par Bucky_McLachlan, 15 avril 2010 - 06:51 .


#11
BaladasDemnevanni

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Of course not. Especially when you refuse to give any arguments to support any of your conclusions. OP was honest, humble, and non-confrontational. He deserves decency as much as the next person.

#12
Nightwriter

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Torrential wrote...

Again no specifics :), I can't really respond to your comments either way. If anyone has any reasoning behind their opinions, by all means please share it.


I did not like the game's story because it felt threadbare and meandering. I did not like the plot concept of the entire story consisting of recruitment missions.

This made me feel like ME2 was essentially me filling out a grocery list, culminating in the final battle as the checkout lane. Games where you spend all your time preparing for a single moment tend to feel very short to me, a flash in the pan.

Loyalty quests, which I support whole-heartedly, flourish best, I feel, when they underline the story rather than stand in for it. I felt the loyalty quests themselves diced my story up unsatisfactorily, making it all episodic.

I did not like the concept of a small human Reaper made out of a human smoothe. It felt contrived and highly implausible to me.

#13
BaladasDemnevanni

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Nightwriter wrote...

Torrential wrote...

Again no specifics :), I can't really respond to your comments either way. If anyone has any reasoning behind their opinions, by all means please share it.


I did not like the game's story because it felt threadbare and meandering. I did not like the plot concept of the entire story consisting of recruitment missions.

This made me feel like ME2 was essentially me filling out a grocery list, culminating in the final battle as the checkout lane. Games where you spend all your time preparing for a single moment tend to feel very short to me, a flash in the pan.

Loyalty quests, which I support whole-heartedly, flourish best, I feel, when they underline the story rather than stand in for it. I felt the loyalty quests themselves diced my story up unsatisfactorily, making it all episodic.

I did not like the concept of a small human Reaper made out of a human smoothe. It felt contrived and highly implausible to me.


See, Buck? This is an example of a good argument. It is simultaneously clear, respectful, and well-made. Good post Night. Your metaphor to the grocery store does a good job of capturing a problem with the main plot which I hadn't considered.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 15 avril 2010 - 06:58 .


#14
TheLostGenius

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Actually although an exciting and well paced adventure, the ending of ME2 leaves you exactly where you were at the end of ME1. You have a sweet team of capable space adventurers that can handle indoctrinated races, and Oh my gosh look at the reapers gathering in the distance, we are ready to fight them! I mean their is no new revelation or anything. The main arch of ME2's plot is new character development and pseudo-alliances with what were once enemy species.

#15
Tyrannosaurus Rex

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Okay here is a few reasons why i don't like the main plot of ME2.

1: There's alot of things that are not explained
Why did Kaiden/ashley not get taken by the collectors? I mean, they took Lilith and she was only at best 200 meters away. Also remember the fact that the old human squadmate was stationed on Horizon was the reason the collectors attacked that colony IN THE FIRST PLACE!

Why are Turians considered too primitiv? I doubt it's technological since the Turians invented the Thanix cannon, and it proved pretty ëffective at destroying collector ships! So why are Turians considered primitive? Oh wait.... we are never told are we?


2: We spend WAAAY too much time on "petty" things.

3: The treatmeant of the old LI's was a kick in the balls.

I could go on, but i don't want to write an essay on the subject

Also why is Thane in this game? He servers no purpose at all!

#16
Torrential

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Nightwriter wrote...

I did not like the game's story because it felt threadbare and meandering.


By threadbare do you mean it’s been done before, which sadly most sci fi has at some time, or did you mean you wanted a faster pace? That to me would have felt rushed, I enjoyed really getting into the world but then…

Nightwriter wrote...

I did not like the plot concept of the entire story consisting of recruitment missions.

This made me feel like ME2 was essentially me filling out a grocery list, culminating in the final battle as the checkout lane. Games where you spend all your time preparing for a single moment tend to feel very short to me, a flash in the pan.


I hate short games myself, I feel most games are too short these days or rushed. I can understand what you are saying, I guess I saw it more as getting ready for the fight of the characters life, and it fitted my sheps personality to want all the advantages he could get.

Moreover I enjoy the buildup often more than the usually linear ending which is just following a set sequence, getting inside characters heads or the exploring the gameworld is what I find most fun, I always have in games.

Nightwriter wrote...

Loyalty quests, which I support whole-heartedly, flourish best, I feel, when they underline the story rather than stand in for it. I felt the loyalty quests themselves diced my story up unsatisfactorily, making it all episodic.


If I understand correctly that explains our differing points of view. I enjoyed going where I pleased, when I pleased. I hate being led around by the hand on a linear path, but I can understand why people do, as both methods of gameplay have their advantages.

Nightwriter wrote...
I did not like the concept of a small human Reaper made out of a human smoothe. It felt contrived and highly implausible to me.


I’m not even sure what you specifically mean by this;  for me seeing that was one of the best twists :), but each to their own. I imagine the reaper ships you see heading in at the end of ME2 are other species dna twisted the same. I imagine that is all the reapers are, base DNA, other species molded into one of their own.

#17
TheLostGenius

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If you are posting in this forum you likely like ME2 ALOT BUt have some reasonable criticisms of it. The plot in ME2 was not as good as ME1. It sucks when you dedicate a lot of time to a goal that has no scope in the grander adventurers the characters get into. (Like mini assignments that have no impact on the story).

#18
Torrential

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TheLostGenius wrote...

Actually although an exciting and well paced adventure, the ending of ME2 leaves you exactly where you were at the end of ME1. You have a sweet team of capable space adventurers that can handle indoctrinated races, and Oh my gosh look at the reapers gathering in the distance, we are ready to fight them! I mean their is no new revelation or anything. The main arch of ME2's plot is new character development and pseudo-alliances with what were once enemy species.


Yeah I can see this too, well put. I do think there are some revelations though, with the manipulation of dna, but perhaps not as groundbreaking as ME1

I believe in my gut there is a good reason for putting you into Cerberus however, and making you get to know the characters there in depth, beginning to relate to them. I surmise it is laying the ground work for some hard choices in ME3. I believe it will make you pick between your ME1 alliance roots, or some of your ME2 crewmen, with the losing side coming off very badly.

TheLostGenius wrote...
If you are posting in this forum
you likely like ME2 ALOT BUt have some reasonable criticisms of it. The
plot in ME2 was not as good as ME1.


I think the plot in ME2, from a person who enjoys character driven stories was excellent. As I indicated above, it is all about the people under your command.

TheLostGenius wrote...
It sucks when you dedicate a lot of time to a goal that has no scope in the grander adventurers the characters get into. (Like mini assignments that have no impact on the story).


We can only hope the results are woven into ME3, if they are then they will be exceptional. I thought most of them were interesting however, certainly more interesting than many of the ME1 sidequests.

Modifié par Torrential, 15 avril 2010 - 07:20 .


#19
TheLostGenius

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Yea, I agree. I'm hoping you can choose to side with Cereberus, or the Alliance or go Rogue/Renegade by yourself against the Reapers. Dunno if you have tried the Kasumi DLC, but their is an excellent main plot wrinkle that is alluded to at the end of it. All I can say is that it has to do with the Alliance and stolen intel.

Also its true, there were a lot of medicore side assignments in ME1, especially on the Citadel, however the main quest was excellent and very immersive, full of variation. Also happen to be aperson that liked the deeper RPG mechanisms as well. So the dumbed down RPG development system of ME2 was a disappointment, however they did improve teh combat system, even if they made it somewhat "cartoonish". Note: Compare a rocket fired at you in ME1 to one in ME2. The rockets in ME1 LOOK DANGEROUS, the rockets in ME2 look cartoonish. Also was a bit diaspointed as to how well integrated biotics were into the gameplay. Though I can understand some of the change they made with Tech ability for reasons of accessbility.

Modifié par TheLostGenius, 15 avril 2010 - 07:21 .


#20
smudboy

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Not sure if this was directed to me, but hey, why not.

Torrential wrote...
Interesting take on the ending, could you expand on why? I ask as I thoroughly enjoyed having the building climatic ending as the ultimate reason for playing the game, the choices meaning who lives and dies.

You want me to tell you why a giant cybernetic monstrosity was a bad idea?

How aquiring a team for supposedly a land war in Asia while revealing nothing about the plot or why you acquire said character (corollary: Mordin) and then oh look: a land war in Asia.  Who'd a thunk?

How selecting a team for only a few operations and the concept of loyalty had next to nothing to do with loyalty, save contrived game play mechanic flag which may result in someone/someone else dying for inextricable reasons...

Developing the character loyalty was a great addition, and of course it was a character driven story, the characters very lives depended on your actions ;). There is still a plot of course, but TIM, shepard, and his team are in the driving seat throughout the gameplay.

The side characters were developed wonderfully.  Too bad they weren't woven into the plot, considering how much time was spent on them.  Instead, it was 12 seperate better stories connected only through association with the main blah story.

You just described why it's a plot driven story, not character driven.  Good man.

As to it being a first class story, it was, I was wrapped up in it from beginning to end. If you want a more specific response, or indeed have one, by all means share your thoughts. The side missions I even found engaging, which for me was the icing on the cake.

I'm not exactly sure what you were wrapped up in.  I can only assume the character side stories, because the main plot was ridiculous.  The main story was passably coherent.  It's like someone took a shotgun and started blasting holes in the script until they had enough room (75%) to stick 12 other stories in there, in that forced "square peg-round hole" kind of way.

But to say the main story is the cake?  And a first class one?  That's...well, hey.  Whatever floats your boat.

Modifié par smudboy, 15 avril 2010 - 07:22 .


#21
Ray Joel Oh

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Lizardviking wrote...

Why are Turians considered too primitiv? I doubt it's technological since the Turians invented the Thanix cannon, and it proved pretty ëffective at destroying collector ships! So why are Turians considered primitive? Oh wait.... we are never told are we?


My only guess is it's a comment on the speed of their evolution.  Since the collectors value humans for having a lot of genetic variety and a high rate of mutation in our species, I guess that isn't so for turians.  It might be reflected in the fact that they look so dinosauric.

#22
Nightwriter

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Torrential wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I did not like the game's story because it felt threadbare and meandering.


By threadbare do you mean it’s been done before, which sadly most sci fi has at some time, or did you mean you wanted a faster pace? That to me would have felt rushed, I enjoyed really getting into the world but then…


No, I do not mean it has been done before. It is not whether a story has been done before, but whether it has been done well, that I care about.

Stories are about events. Everything in ME2 felt like it took place in the pause between events. This made me feel like, essentially, nothing at all happened.

The plot seemed a series of very brief flashes, a sequence of lateral moving errands speeding you along on a story which went by very quickly without you feeling like you were really onboard.

Torrential wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I did not like the plot concept of the entire story consisting of recruitment missions.

This made me feel like ME2 was essentially me filling out a grocery list, culminating in the final battle as the checkout lane. Games where you spend all your time preparing for a single moment tend to feel very short to me, a flash in the pan.


I hate short games myself, I feel most games are too short these days or rushed. I can understand what you are saying, I guess I saw it more as getting ready for the fight of the characters life, and it fitted my sheps personality to want all the advantages he could get.

Moreover I enjoy the buildup often more than the usually linear ending which is just following a set sequence, getting inside characters heads or the exploring the gameworld is what I find most fun, I always have in games.


Me too. And I too want my Shepard to get all the chances that are possible. I love gathering allies and making friends.

If you look at ME2 like part 1 of ME3, you can see it in a bit better light.

Torrential wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Loyalty quests, which I support whole-heartedly, flourish best, I feel, when they underline the story rather than stand in for it. I felt the loyalty quests themselves diced my story up unsatisfactorily, making it all episodic.


If I understand correctly that explains our differing points of view. I enjoyed going where I pleased, when I pleased. I hate being led around by the hand on a linear path, but I can understand why people do, as both methods of gameplay have their advantages.


ME1 let you go where you pleased. It was also an open environment.

And I felt like game 2 was quite linear. It sort of went:

- Lazarus Station
- Freedom's Progress

- Pick up your first batch of squadmates.

- Horizon.

- Pick up your next batch of squadmates.

- Collector ship...

You see what I mean.

Torrential wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
I did not like the concept of a small human Reaper made out of a human smoothe. It felt contrived and highly implausible to me.


I’m not even sure what you specifically mean by this;  for me seeing that was one of the best twists :), but each to their own. I imagine the reaper ships you see heading in at the end of ME2 are other species dna twisted the same. I imagine that is all the reapers are, base DNA, other species molded into one of their own.


I didn't like it because we're supposed to believe the Reapers absorb our essence from gray goo and then use the goo as play-doh to make more Reapers.

That sort of didn't sit well with me. It's just my personal feelings, though.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 15 avril 2010 - 07:28 .


#23
Nightwriter

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BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

See, Buck? This is an example of a good argument. It is simultaneously clear, respectful, and well-made. Good post Night. Your metaphor to the grocery store does a good job of capturing a problem with the main plot which I hadn't considered.




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#24
Torrential

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smudboy wrote...
You want me to tell you why a giant cybernetic monstrosity was a bad idea?


I see many people are focused on the final boss specifically, my comments were on the entire ending as a whole, I'll address this however.

The reapers are cybernetic monstrosities, so I think you need to clarfiy more to be clear. Are you annoyed that it looked human, or are you annoyed we were fighting a young reaper at all? I enjoyed getting up close and personal with one of the enemy I'd been chasing for two games and countless hours, it was satisfying when I put the nuke through its eyeball :D.

smudboy wrote...
How aquiring a team for supposedly a land war in Asia while revealing nothing about the plot or why you acquire said character (corollary: Mordin) and then oh look: a land war in Asia.  Who'd a thunk?


True it smells like cut content to me, I felt the scientist didn't have much impact in my game either. I was thinking he would have had something to do with genetics, but still it didn't spoil the ending for me, just played down the character a bit.

smudboy wrote...
How selecting a team for only a few operations and the concept of loyalty had next to nothing to do with loyalty, save contrived game play mechanic flag which may result in someone/someone else dying for inextricable reasons...


Were on a suicide mission, facing a race who are liquifying people you know into sludge and want you next. I'd say loyalty to the cause was tested, at least from my point of view.

smudboy wrote...
The side characters were developed wonderfully.  Too bad they weren't woven into the plot, considering how much time was spent on them.  Instead, it was 12 separate better stories connected only through association with the main blah story.


Apart from being woven into the whole plot of a suicide mission set up you mean? That was the whole point of doing those side missions.

smudboy wrote...
You just described why it's a plot driven story, not character driven.  Good man.


No as the characters TIM, Shepard (You), and your crew are characters, your interactions are what drive the plot forward to its ultimately user made conclusion.

The characters develop and change, altering the users experience. You pick which missions you want to do, based on the characters interactions. The only point i'd agree with you is, if all these developments are ignored in ME3, then their impact would be limited but still present to the users own experience.

smudboy wrote...
I'm not exactly sure what you were wrapped up in.  I can only assume the character side stories, because the main plot was ridiculous.  The main story was passably coherent.  It's like someone took a shotgun and started blasting holes in the script until they had enough room (75%) to stick 12 other stories in there, in that forced "square peg-round hole" kind of way.


I enjoyed the build up, I loved the character interaction, and the side missions were like you hinted at entertaining.  We will have to disagree on the ending, as apart from all I've already said, I further enjoyed the potential to lose the characters I'd spent 30 hours getting to know, and have the consequences of that in ME 3.

smudboy wrote...
But to say the main story is the cake?  And a first class one?  That's...well, hey.  Whatever floats your boat.


No the characters were the cake, as I've said numerous times I enjoy character driven stories.

Modifié par Torrential, 15 avril 2010 - 07:47 .


#25
smudboy

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Torrential wrote...
As to it being a first class story, it was, I was wrapped up in it frombeginning to end. If you want a more specific response, or indeed have one, by all means share your thoughts. The side missions I even found engaging, which for me was the icing on the cake.
...
No the characters were the cake, as I've said numerous times I enjoy character driven stories.


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Modifié par smudboy, 15 avril 2010 - 08:08 .