123 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

My ideal ME2 would have involved:

- A completely different plot.

- A better explanation for working with Cerberus. (undercover for the Council would've been superb}

- Loyalty quests AS A SIDELINE ONLY. The actual plot would've been much larger and less series-of-errands-like.

- Better squad interaction.

- Better explanations for why each recruit was specifically needed.

- I did not like the way TIM had everything planned out for you, controlling where you went. He told you where to go and then next thing you know Shepard's on the way there blinking like, "Uh, okay...". I like events to unfold on their own, and for the path to reveal itself.

[Jzadek72]

smudboy wrote...

Torrential wrote...
As to it being a first class story, it was, I was wrapped up in it from
beginning to end. If you want a more specific response, or indeed have
one, by all means share your thoughts. The side missions I even found
engaging, which for me was the icing on the cake.
...
No the characters were the cake, as I've said numerous times I enjoy character driven stories.

Ok, your opinion differs from mine, I respect that. But if the game makes you so angry, why do you just hang about these boards being snide? At least, if you have to stay around (and I see no reason why you would be motivated to, but again, if you want to, I'll respect that) and complain, you might try being more civil. Torrential is presenting his arguements, and being perfectly nice. You spend the debated sneering at his opinions.

[smudboy]

Jzadek72 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Torrential wrote...
As to it being a first class story, it was, I was wrapped up in it from
beginning to end. If you want a more specific response, or indeed have
one, by all means share your thoughts. The side missions I even found
engaging, which for me was the icing on the cake.
...
No the characters were the cake, as I've said numerous times I enjoy character driven stories.

Ok, your opinion differs from mine, I respect that. But if the game makes you so angry, why do you just hang about these boards being snide? At least, if you have to stay around (and I see no reason why you would be motivated to, but again, if you want to, I'll respect that) and complain, you might try being more civil. Torrential is presenting his arguements, and being perfectly nice. You spend the debated sneering at his opinions.

Sorry.  I got confused.  I think this is accurate.

Modifié par smudboy, 15 avril 2010 - 08:21 .

[ThePasserby]

Criticism of the game appeared in the forums within days of its launch and while it has abated somewhat of late, it hasn't really stopped . I think the arguments on both sides remain the same. Nothing new to see.

My take on this is that if you happen to like the game, then you do. There's no need to defend what you like. You can share what you like about the game. But defending the feeling of enjoyment you derived from the game is pointless. And if you don't like it, there's no need to demean those who do.

I happen to like ME2 tremendously.

Edited for typos.

Modifié par ThePasserby, 15 avril 2010 - 08:32 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Nightwriter wrote...

- I did not like the way TIM had everything planned out for you, controlling where you went. He told you where to go and then next thing you know Shepard's on the way there blinking like, "Uh, okay...". I like events to unfold on their own, and for the path to reveal itself.

Hmm, this I have to disagree with. TIM leading me around did not feel any different from the Council in the first game. It all came down to "Event x is happening here. We need you to do this, this, and this." Shepard: "Ok." Rinse and repeat.

[Torrential]

Nightwriter wrote...


Stories are about events. Everything in ME2 felt like it took place in the pause between events. This made me feel like, essentially, nothing at all happened.

The other direction would have made it more linear, and I wouldn't have enjoyed it, hard to find the balance I think .

Nightwriter wrote...


ME1 let you go where you pleased. It was also an open environment.

Well they let you go where you want, till you wanted to do tasks you'd been assigned, kind of like ME2.

It didn't have the mako sadly, but we did get more well developed side missions at least.

Nightwriter wrote...
You see what I mean.

If you are referring to the mako yes.
If you are referring to the mission order no, as ME 1 was the same in that respect.

Nightwriter wrote...

My ideal ME2 would have involved:

- A completely different plot.

- A better explanation for working with Cerberus. (undercover for the Council would've been superb}

- Loyalty quests AS A SIDELINE ONLY. The actual plot would've been much larger and less series-of-errands-like.

- Better squad interaction.

- Better explanations for why each recruit was specifically needed.

- I did not like the way TIM had everything planned out for you, controlling where you went. He told you where to go and then next thing you know Shepard's on the way there blinking like, "Uh, okay...". I like events to unfold on their own, and for the path to reveal itself.

My ideal ME 2 would involve:

- Same plot, I’ve still not heard an argument as to why the actual plot was bad. Moreover why another plot would have been better.

-Agree about Cerberus, as I said in the OP, we could of done with a mission to make the transition more smooth.

-Loyalty Quests: The main story not plot, as the loyalty missions were tied into the plot, getting people ready for a suicide mission. However, putting that aside, that would of made the story more linear most likely, and I wouldn’t have enjoyed it as much. Otherwise it would have been errands labeled under the guise of a main plot, I don’t see how that would have been different.

-Squad Interaction: Always more interaction! Yet the dialogue was fine, I enjoyed it. Garrus needed more, (possibly Jack too as I am jack hungry  ) Ash certainly needed more (I put that in the OP), but the rest of the squad came off fine for me. Zhaeed’s stories were okay when I was used to the fact I couldn’t interact with him, I would of preferred that interaction however. If you mean customization, I agreed in the OP.

- Better Recruiting Explanations: Yes I will give you that, though some were explained, TIM could have done more to let me know at the start, or the story could have done more to reinforce why I shouldn’t need to know.

-TIM planning things: I was fine with this. The Alliance and Council had everything planned out in ME1, I was fine with that too. I hate linear, but I am fine when I can choose when to do things.

Modifié par Torrential, 16 avril 2010 - 07:59 .

[Torrential]

Jzadek72 wrote...

Ok, your opinion differs from mine, I respect that. But if the game makes you so angry, why do you just hang about these boards being snide? At least, if you have to stay around (and I see no reason why you would be motivated to, but again, if you want to, I'll respect that) and complain, you might try being more civil. Torrential is presenting his arguements, and being perfectly nice. You spend the debated sneering at his opinions.

I don’t believe Smudboy can really fathom what a character driven story means, so he is trying to take the comments out of context, or just trolling, probably both.

I’ll try it in a few simple words, which he seems to prefer.

Smudboy – How can you enjoy characters and the story?

Characters driving story make story good, I enjoy, ug ug rawr, {img} picture of cake {/img}.

Modifié par Torrential, 16 avril 2010 - 07:57 .

[Nightwriter]

Torrential wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...


My ideal ME2 would have involved:

- A completely different plot.

- A better explanation for working with Cerberus. (undercover for the Council would've been superb}

- Loyalty quests AS A SIDELINE ONLY. The actual plot would've been much larger and less series-of-errands-like.

- Better squad interaction.

- Better explanations for why each recruit was specifically needed.

- I did not like the way TIM had everything planned out for you, controlling where you went. He told you where to go and then next thing you know Shepard's on the way there blinking like, "Uh, okay...". I like events to unfold on their own, and for the path to reveal itself.

My ideal ME 2 would involve:

- Same plot, I’ve still not heard an argument as to why the actual plot was bad. Moreover why another plot would have been better.

But I gave you some in my post on page 1.

The plot felt like it was a series of errands preparing for a single flash in the pan moment. Or, like I said, the equivalent of filling out a grocery list and then checking out.

Not to mention by the end of the game you've gotten no closer to defeating the Reapers. Nothing changed.

-Agree about Cerberus, as I said in the OP, we could of done with a mission to make the transition more smooth.

-Loyalty Quests: The main story not plot, as the loyalty missions were tied into the plot, getting people ready for a suicide mission. However, putting that aside, that would of made the story more linear most likely, and I wouldn’t have enjoyed it as much. Otherwise it would have been errands labeled under the guise of a main plot, I don’t see how that would have been different.

I don't understand why you think the ME2 story was any less linear than the ME1 story. I thought they were pretty much the same in that way.

-Squad Interaction: Always more interaction! Yet the dialogue was fine, I enjoyed it. Garrus needed more, (possibly Jack too as I am jack hungry  ) Ash certainly needed more (I put that in the OP), but the rest of the squad came off fine for me. Zhaeed’s stories were okay when I was used to the fact I couldn’t interact with him, I would of preferred that interaction however. If you mean customization, I agreed in the OP.

- Better Recruiting Explanations: Yes I will give you that, though some were explained, TIM could have done more to let me know at the start, or the story could have done more to reinforce why I shouldn’t need to know.

-TIM planning things: I was fine with this. The Alliance and Council had everything planned out in ME1, I was fine with that too. I hate linear, but I am fine when I can choose when to do things.

Yes, but I understood the Council giving me orders as a Spectre.

I was not working for TIM, I didn't like his power, and following his instructions chafed.

Also the Council gave me a bit more freedom - I felt like they gave me leads rather than missions.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Nightwriter wrote...

My ideal ME2 would have involved:

- A completely different plot.

- A better explanation for working with Cerberus. (undercover for the Council would've been superb}

- Loyalty quests AS A SIDELINE ONLY. The actual plot would've been much larger and less series-of-errands-like.

- Better squad interaction.

- Better explanations for why each recruit was specifically needed.

- I did not like the way TIM had everything planned out for you, controlling where you went. He told you where to go and then next thing you know Shepard's on the way there blinking like, "Uh, okay...". I like events to unfold on their own, and for the path to reveal itself.

Loyalty quests are completely optional.  If you rush through the game you can pretty much just do 3 recruitment missions > Story event > 3 Recruitment missions (maybe 1 side quest, not sure should check) > Story Event > Can opt to do IFF right away > Go to Omega 4 Relay

If you download Zaeed/Kasumi I believe you have to do those.  Also if you may have to do 1, 2 or 3 to fulfill the event triggers but I am not entirely positive.

[Torrential]

Nightwriter wrote...
But I gave you some in my post on page 1.

The plot felt like it was a series of errands preparing for a single flash in the pan moment. Or, like I said, the equivalent of filling out a grocery list and then checking out.

Not to mention by the end of the game you've gotten no closer to defeating the Reapers. Nothing changed.

Sorry I think I am partially talking at cross purposes.

Yes but filling out that list I found fun, as it gave me freedom to do what I wanted to do and not be hand held down a linear path. For me it built suspense, I guess that is the difference we disagree on.

I think you are closer to defeating the reapers, at least with the renegade ending . Cerberus has a live Geth, a Live genetically engineered Krogan, and a fully operational collector base. With the Paragon ending, I can see what you mean, but perhaps the clues about the dna manipulation will be the key to defeating them.

Nightwriter wrote...

I don't understand why you think the ME2 story was any less linear than the ME1 story. I thought they were pretty much the same in that way.

So did I, I was pointing out removing the recruitment quests 'would have' made the game more linear, or a series of errands, I don't see how the second option is any different than a series of errand recruitment quests.

Nightwriter wrote...

Yes, but I understood the Council giving me orders as a Spectre.

I was not working for TIM, I didn't like his power, and following his instructions chafed.

Also the Council gave me a bit more freedom - I felt like they gave me leads rather than missions.

Ah I see what you mean, at first I hated the change too, I felt the transition was too forced, but I posted that above.

As I played the renegade options however I did manage to settle in easier, I can see why Paragon characters would suffer more. All we can hope is that there is a choice now in ME3, Alliance, Cerberus (or possibly self interest) in the mission choices. If they force us back into the alliance, it will again feel -forced- to me anyway, as I have no interest in working with the characters who turned their back on my shep.

Finally though TIM and Council didn't really offer much more or less freedom, I can't see how anyway. The names of the systems and missions change, but you can still fly to them in the order you wish.

Modifié par Torrential, 16 avril 2010 - 08:26 .

[Nightwriter]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Loyalty quests are completely optional.  If you rush through the game you can pretty much just do 3 recruitment missions > Story event > 3 Recruitment missions (maybe 1 side quest, not sure should check) > Story Event > Can opt to do IFF right away > Go to Omega 4 Relay

If you download Zaeed/Kasumi I believe you have to do those.  Also if you may have to do 1, 2 or 3 to fulfill the event triggers but I am not entirely positive.

... Those loyalty quests were the whole game.

The game was about making your characters loyal. So you could survive the final mission.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Nightwriter wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Loyalty quests are completely optional.  If you rush through the game you can pretty much just do 3 recruitment missions > Story event > 3 Recruitment missions (maybe 1 side quest, not sure should check) > Story Event > Can opt to do IFF right away > Go to Omega 4 Relay

If you download Zaeed/Kasumi I believe you have to do those.  Also if you may have to do 1, 2 or 3 to fulfill the event triggers but I am not entirely positive.

... Those loyalty quests were the whole game.

The game was about making your characters loyal. So you could survive the final mission.

They aren't at all necessary.

Sure you'd lose people but thats part of the fun. 

Also ME 2 does in fact have a more linear plot than ME 1 but in scope they are around the same.

Its just that ME 1 picks up at the end while ME 2 only picks up with the final mission and it is more from an emotional standpoint than a gameplay standpoint.  (Unlike ME 1 which if you do Virmire - Ilos - Citadel its like AWWWWWWWWWWWWW YEEEEEEEEEEEAH)

EDIT:  I have a save where I did something similar to what I said except in that I didn't recruit Samara.  I believe I didn't do Thane or Garrus's loyalty mission.  I should check.  It really depends on how many missions are needed to make the Collector Ship mission trigger.

EDIT 2:  It also might have to do with talking to your crew to make the Loyalty missions trigger.  I should try going through the entire game specifically not triggering any of these missions to see if the Collector Ship triggers sooner.

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 16 avril 2010 - 08:37 .

[Nightwriter]

Torrential wrote...

Sorry I think I am partially talking at cross purposes.

Yes but filling out that list I found fun, as it gave me freedom to do what I wanted to do and not be hand held down a linear path. For me it built suspense, I guess that is the difference we disagree on.

I think you are closer to defeating the reapers, at least with the renegade ending . Cerberus has a live Geth, a Live genetically engineered Krogan, and a full operational collector base. With the Paragon ending, I can see what you mean.

I guess I see what you mean. I can understand that.

It's just that, I felt like ME1 ended, and the conclusion was - the Reapers are coming.

Then you finish ME2, and the conclusion's still... the Reapers are coming. You know what I mean?

Torrential wrote...
Ah I see what you mean, at first I hated the change too, I felt the transition was too forced, but I posted that above.

As I played the renegade options however I did manage to settle in easier, I can see why Paragon characters would suffer more. All we can hope is that there is a choice now in ME3, Alliance, Cerberus (or possibly self interest) in the mission choices. If they force us back into the alliance, it will again feel -forced- to me anyway, as I have no interest in working with the characters who turned their back on my shep.

Finally though TIM and Council didn't really offer much more or less freedom, I can't see how anyway. The names of the systems and missions change, but you can still fly to them in the order you wish.

I sort of felt rushed in the beginning of the game. After my talks with TIM Shepard was suddenly setting off to Freedom's Progress and then to recuit people, and I was like, "Wait, what? Back up."

I think, for me, I like to SEE the story. I like it presented to me rather than described.

By this I mean it didn't really sit well with me that I woke up on a lab station under an attack that was never explained, shepherded into an audience with TIM by my handlers (for lack of a better word) and then told   that these attacks were happening and why I had to work with Cerberus.

I would much rather have woken up in that base during the attack - had the attack explained to me better in the story - and then ESCAPED the station, before TIM could even talk to me or tell me what was going on. (Plus, slipping through Miranda's fingers would've been exquisite)

Then I escape to the nearest colony the shuttle can get me to, seeking passage off world to contact the Alliance or the Council - and boom. The Collectors attack. I see it happening first hand. The story shows itself to me.

After that I realize something big is going on, get caught up in the chaos of the attack and the struggle to survive, and then in the middle of it all, what do you know, Miranda shows up again, furious that I escaped, and tells me it really is time I talked to the Illusive Man.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 16 avril 2010 - 08:38 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Nightwriter wrote...

Torrential wrote...

Sorry I think I am partially talking at cross purposes.

Yes but filling out that list I found fun, as it gave me freedom to do what I wanted to do and not be hand held down a linear path. For me it built suspense, I guess that is the difference we disagree on.

I think you are closer to defeating the reapers, at least with the renegade ending . Cerberus has a live Geth, a Live genetically engineered Krogan, and a full operational collector base. With the Paragon ending, I can see what you mean.

I guess I see what you mean. I can understand that.

It's just that, I felt like ME1 ended, and the conclusion was - the Reapers are coming.

Then you finish ME2, and the conclusion's still... the Reapers are coming. You know what I mean?

Torrential wrote...
Ah I see what you mean, at first I hated the change too, I felt the transition was too forced, but I posted that above.

As I played the renegade options however I did manage to settle in easier, I can see why Paragon characters would suffer more. All we can hope is that there is a choice now in ME3, Alliance, Cerberus (or possibly self interest) in the mission choices. If they force us back into the alliance, it will again feel -forced- to me anyway, as I have no interest in working with the characters who turned their back on my shep.

Finally though TIM and Council didn't really offer much more or less freedom, I can't see how anyway. The names of the systems and missions change, but you can still fly to them in the order you wish.

I sort of felt rushed in the beginning of the game. After my talks with TIM Shepard was suddenly setting off to Freedom's Progress and then to recuit people, and I was like, "Wait, what? Back up."

I think, for me, I like to SEE the story. I like it presented to me rather than described.

By this I mean it didn't really sit well with me that I woke up on a lab station under an attack that was never explained, shepherded into an audience with TIM by my handlers (for lack of a better word) and then told   that these attacks were happening and why I had to work with Cerberus.

I would much rather have woken up in that base during the attack - had the attack explained to me better in the story - and then ESCAPED the station, before TIM could even talk to me or tell me what was going on. (Plus, slipping through Miranda's fingers would've been exquisite)

Then I escape to the nearest colony the shuttle can get me to, seeking passage off world to contact the Alliance or the Council - and boom. The Collectors attack. I see it happening first hand. The story shows itself to me.

After that I realize something big is going on, get caught up in the chaos of the attack and the struggle to survive, and then in the middle of it all, what do you know, Miranda shows up again, furious that I escaped, and tells me it really is time I talked to the Illusive Man.

The conclusion at the end of ME 1 was that the Reapers are still out there.  Nothing really stated they were coming.  In fact with the death of Sovereign you pretty much stalled their invasion.

With ME 2 it seems like the Collectors were building a Reaper to take Sovereigns place as a mole in the galaxy.  When that fell through the Reapers are now forced to invade without locking out the Mass Relays.

EDIT:  Basically in ME 1 you find out about the Reapers.  IN ME 2 you investigate them, trigger their invasion and in ME 3 I assume you fight against them in some fashion.

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 16 avril 2010 - 08:45 .

[Nightwriter]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

They aren't at all necessary.

Sure you'd lose people but thats part of the fun. 

Also ME 2 does in fact have a more linear plot than ME 1 but in scope they are around the same.

Its just that ME 1 picks up at the end while ME 2 only picks up with the final mission and it is more from an emotional standpoint than a gameplay standpoint.  (Unlike ME 1 which if you do Virmire - Ilos - Citadel its like AWWWWWWWWWWWWW YEEEEEEEEEEEAH)

EDIT:  I have a save where I did something similar to what I said except in that I didn't recruit Samara.  I believe I didn't do Thane or Garrus's loyalty mission.  I should check.  It really depends on how many missions are needed to make the Collector Ship mission trigger.

EDIT 2:  It also might have to do with talking to your crew to make the Loyalty missions trigger.  I should try going through the entire game specifically not triggering any of these missions to see if the Collector Ship triggers sooner.

Perhaps I should rephrase.

The loyalty quests were what the plot offered as emotional story content. They were the pulp of the game.

If you skipped them you'd miss out on so much of the game as to, I feel, make it unenjoyable.

They are not necessary to the story, but I feel they are necessary to your experience of the story.

[FlintlockJazz]

Overall I loved ME2 and feel that it was better than ME1. I feel that many of the choices and 'holes' were made due to things we will find out in ME3, however assuming that they didn't decide on pitting against the collectors for any reason other than what we know in ME2, the main change I would make would be to change the main enemy from the Collectors to the Geth. I feel that there was some reason they chose to use the collectors beyond what we know, but if they didn't then the geth would have fitted better because it would have led to more of a continuance from ME1, provide closure on the geth invasion and role as reaper minions, and make more use of Legion (since we could have had Legion following us around from a distance throughout more of the game).



I would also not have Shepard 'die' as such but rather be crippled and put in a coma beyond most medical help until Cerberus comes along, with most people still thinking he was dead. However, since the game is pretty vague about it I tend to presume thats what really happened anyway, Jacob's words were something along the lines of "If you weren't dead you were close to it".



Other than that, I am pretty happy. The council is obviously covering it up for political reasons, and its likely that they reveal this in ME3, along with many of the other issues, though that won't be confirmed until we play ME3. I like the recruitment missions and more character driven story in ME2.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Nightwriter wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

They aren't at all necessary.

Sure you'd lose people but thats part of the fun. 

Also ME 2 does in fact have a more linear plot than ME 1 but in scope they are around the same.

Its just that ME 1 picks up at the end while ME 2 only picks up with the final mission and it is more from an emotional standpoint than a gameplay standpoint.  (Unlike ME 1 which if you do Virmire - Ilos - Citadel its like AWWWWWWWWWWWWW YEEEEEEEEEEEAH)

EDIT:  I have a save where I did something similar to what I said except in that I didn't recruit Samara.  I believe I didn't do Thane or Garrus's loyalty mission.  I should check.  It really depends on how many missions are needed to make the Collector Ship mission trigger.

EDIT 2:  It also might have to do with talking to your crew to make the Loyalty missions trigger.  I should try going through the entire game specifically not triggering any of these missions to see if the Collector Ship triggers sooner.

Perhaps I should rephrase.

The loyalty quests were what the plot offered as emotional story content. They were the pulp of the game.

If you skipped them you'd miss out on so much of the game as to, I feel, make it unenjoyable.

They are not necessary to the story, but I feel they are necessary to your experience of the story.

Soooooooooooo

Let me see if I can understand what you are ultimately saying.  

The loyalty missions are the Emotional meat of the game, without doing them I am going to assume that you would not feel as attached to the characters as you were before.

However, doing such loyalty missions throws off the game and makes it feel like you are running errands or whatnot. 

So ultimately having the Side Quests focused on Characters more than having the characters focused in the main quest is a mistake?

[Nightwriter]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

The conclusion at the end of ME 1 was that the Reapers are still out there.  Nothing really stated they were coming.  In fact with the death of Sovereign you pretty much stalled their invasion.

With ME 2 it seems like the Collectors were building a Reaper to take Sovereigns place as a mole in the galaxy.  When that fell through the Reapers are now forced to invade without locking out the Mass Relays.

EDIT:  Basically in ME 1 you find out about the Reapers.  IN ME 2 you investigate them, trigger their invasion and in ME 3 I assume you fight against them in some fashion.

I believe that at the end of ME1 Shepard said, "The Reapers are coming" as he walked away dramatically.

I felt like ME1 was about earning the respect of the Council and trying to convince them the Reapers were real. That was step one. Proving they exist, earning a place for humanity. I felt I accomplished these things. Now that that was established, I could proceed into ME2 and get to business.

But in ME2, the Council are once again denying their existence, making me feel like I gained no ground at all in ME1 or accomplished anything. Once again I defeated a single Reaper without addressing the real threat. No ground was gained.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Nightwriter wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

The conclusion at the end of ME 1 was that the Reapers are still out there.  Nothing really stated they were coming.  In fact with the death of Sovereign you pretty much stalled their invasion.

With ME 2 it seems like the Collectors were building a Reaper to take Sovereigns place as a mole in the galaxy.  When that fell through the Reapers are now forced to invade without locking out the Mass Relays.

EDIT:  Basically in ME 1 you find out about the Reapers.  IN ME 2 you investigate them, trigger their invasion and in ME 3 I assume you fight against them in some fashion.

I believe that at the end of ME1 Shepard said, "The Reapers are coming" as he walked away dramatically.

I felt like ME1 was about earning the respect of the Council and trying to convince them the Reapers were real. That was step one. Proving they exist, earning a place for humanity. I felt I accomplished these things. Now that that was established, I could proceed into ME2 and get to business.

But in ME2, the Council are once again denying their existence, making me feel like I gained no ground at all in ME1 or accomplished anything. Once again I defeated a single Reaper without addressing the real threat. No ground was gained.

The Crux of the storyline in ME 1 was stopping Saren.  Near the end (or Middle if you do Virmire earlier) you find out about Sovereign, then at the end at Ilos you find out more about the Reapers.  There were hints in the game from the very beginning (Geth data on Tali'zorah's omni tool) but it wasn't confirmed until you meet Vigil.

Then you stop the invasion and kill Saren.  The primary evidence was Sovereign itself but it was scrapped more or less.  Plus the events of ME 1 assurred Humanities spot in Galactic affairs.  Shepard says the Reapers are coming, but with what?  No evidence in the game said that they were an immediate threat.  The immediate threat was stopped at the end of the game when Sovereign failed.

In ME 2 however Humanity was solidifying its place.  No Reaper threat was manifested, if you saved the Council they apparently brush aside what you say.  For the most part it is understandable as you can say that if you saved them that they were humoring you at the end of ME 1.  The primary evidence of Sovereign/The Reapers was destroyed on Virmire, it had the second beacon which was intact and the science facility studying indoctrination.  Because the Geth stick to themselves and no threat had been manifested in 2 years there may be some doubts on this Reaper threat.  However the STG would most likely know about it and you were most likley brushed off because of the Cerberus connection.  But again no threat had manifested itself.

In ME 2 you are sent to invistigate the Collectors as they may be tied to the Reapers and that could provide valuable information which in turn is what happens.  The Reapers (Harbinger) were trying to do something (creation of a human Reaper) and ultimately this is foiled, which leads to the final cinematic which is the Reapers "Awakening" so to speak.  

The Reaper threat is just an overarching set piece to tie the games together.  Ultimately ME 1 was about Shepard stopping a rogue Spectre and giving Humanity its place within the Galaxy.  ME 2's main failing was that the plot did tie in with the Reapers.  It was the central focus of the plot.  You were sent to stop the Collectors because they were agents of the Reapers.  While in ME 1 you were sent to stop Saren because he went Rogue and was working with the Geth, only later do you find out that he was working for Sovereign.  Plot twist.

[Nightwriter]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Soooooooooooo

Let me see if I can understand what you are ultimately saying.  

The loyalty missions are the Emotional meat of the game, without doing them I am going to assume that you would not feel as attached to the characters as you were before.

However, doing such loyalty missions throws off the game and makes it feel like you are running errands or whatnot. 

So ultimately having the Side Quests focused on Characters more than having the characters focused in the main quest is a mistake?

Lol. Depends on how it's done.

Character driven stories can be done well.

But when they did it here, they diced my game up into a series of isolated episodes focusing on one character at a time, as through a singularly focused microscope lens beneath which is placed slide after slide, one after another, each slide viewed one at a time and without any connection to each other.

The protagonist and the squad characters should experience the story as a single entity, everyone on the same journey. It didn't really feel this way in ME2. No one felt connected to each other.

[Nightwriter]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

The Crux of the storyline in ME 1 was stopping Saren.  Near the end (or Middle if you do Virmire earlier) you find out about Sovereign, then at the end at Ilos you find out more about the Reapers.  There were hints in the game from the very beginning (Geth data on Tali'zorah's omni tool) but it wasn't confirmed until you meet Vigil.

Then you stop the invasion and kill Saren.  The primary evidence was Sovereign itself but it was scrapped more or less.  Plus the events of ME 1 assurred Humanities spot in Galactic affairs.  Shepard says the Reapers are coming, but with what?  No evidence in the game said that they were an immediate threat.  The immediate threat was stopped at the end of the game when Sovereign failed.

This was really never made clear. On the one hand it was suggested to us the Reapers were in hibernation, which would mean stopping Sovereign from activating the relay would've kept them from ever waking up.

On the other hand the end of ME1 and ME2 treats it like they are quite awake and are coming. Whether or not stopping Sovereign eliminated the threat completely is never really clarified.

In ME 2 however Humanity was solidifying its place.  No Reaper threat was manifested, if you saved the Council they apparently brush aside what you say.  For the most part it is understandable as you can say that if you saved them that they were humoring you at the end of ME 1.  The primary evidence of Sovereign/The Reapers was destroyed on Virmire, it had the second beacon which was intact and the science facility studying indoctrination.  Because the Geth stick to themselves and no threat had been manifested in 2 years there may be some doubts on this Reaper threat.  However the STG would most likely know about it and you were most likley brushed off because of the Cerberus connection.  But again no threat had manifested itself.

In ME 2 you are sent to invistigate the Collectors as they may be tied to the Reapers and that could provide valuable information which in turn is what happens.  The Reapers (Harbinger) were trying to do something (creation of a human Reaper) and ultimately this is foiled, which leads to the final cinematic which is the Reapers "Awakening" so to speak.  

The Reaper threat is just an overarching set piece to tie the games together.  Ultimately ME 1 was about Shepard stopping a rogue Spectre and giving Humanity its place within the Galaxy.  ME 2's main failing was that the plot did tie in with the Reapers.  It was the central focus of the plot.  You were sent to stop the Collectors because they were agents of the Reapers.  While in ME 1 you were sent to stop Saren because he went Rogue and was working with the Geth, only later do you find out that he was working for Sovereign.  Plot twist.

Hmm. I simply disagree.

As soon as I heard Benezia's voice on the recording say "... And one step closer to the return of the Reapers", I had it in my had that the Reapers were what this story was really about and that they were the threat.

From the beginning of my game I felt like I was chasing down that trail, that Saren would lead me to them. At the end of the game I felt I had evidence of their existence, an understanding of the threat, and an outline of the story arc.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 16 avril 2010 - 10:04 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

That is where ME 1 was about revealing the Reapers. You heard them mentioned but ultimately you did not know what they were until the revelation on Virmire. Benezia speaks about indoctrination and Saren's ship, but it wasn't until Virmire you find out exactly what indoctrination was and what its affects were.

Benezia and Saren speak of the return of the Reapers. That was Sovereigns position in the Milky Way, it was there to ensure that they would return. However Sovereign failed.

Also Off-Topic, but destroying Saren's base at Virmire was the dumbest thing that your character did in the entire two games. Unless keeping the Collector Base does something really ****ed up in ME 3.

EDIT:  However your main motivation as a character was to stop Saren and the Geth.  This is what the Alliance wants you to do and this is what the Council wants you to do.  Your character has a feeling about the Reapers and wants to invistigate them (because of the beacon on Eden Prime), but their ultimate goal is to stop Saren.

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 16 avril 2010 - 10:13 .

[Nightwriter]

At the end of ME1, I thought, "Okay, now I know the enemies are the Reapers and we have to figure out a way to stop them."

So I thought ME2 should be about stopping them, not investigating them further.

And I never considered that it might be useful to keep Saren's base. Kirrahe and the others were so gung ho about NUKE IT WE MUST NUKE IT I never really stopped to think.

I guess Sovereign showing up there at the end and totally trashing the place meant it probably would've gotten destroyed, anyway.

[FlintlockJazz]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Also Off-Topic, but destroying Saren's base at Virmire was the dumbest thing that your character did in the entire two games. Unless keeping the Collector Base does something really ****ed up in ME 3.

I always want to smack Kirrahe when I meet him, his plan is idiotic and results in the death of the Virmire goon, and then you get the blame for setting off the bomb from the council later!  *facepalm*

[Nightwriter]

Didn't you know? Humans are to blame for everything.



*turns to the Council*



You aliens are all racist.