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[JMA22TB]

Yes, a diversion.

ME2's plot consists of finding out about the Collectors, who are abducting thousands upon thousands of humans for whatever reason, finding out they're using them to supposedly create another Reaper, and you wipe them out entirely with a space battle against one ship and a couple drones, a ground assault that requires key choices and inspired squadmates, and has an allegedly profitable gold mine of technology and information about the enemy.

Anyone else think this was a little too easy? 

The 'defense' of the Collector base consisted of one ship and three or four drones - not very impressive, considering the plan to build another Reaper under our noses. Speaking of the plan to build this Reaper, even though it was working until Shepard was put on the case there's a big flaw - thousands of people disappearing will get the abducted race's attention. They're going to try to look and tell people about it. Furthermore, there's the curious case of the heretic geth - you have millions, maybe billions of geth on a station that can be deployed and they're sitting in storage pods? If the Collectors wanted to ensure the success of the Reaper construction project, you'd be walking into a geth fleet, at least a couple of collector cruisers, anti-ship defenses on the station, and an army of geth guarding the base, along with the Collectors and swarms, at the bare minimum. That's not what happens, obviously.

Furthermore, we find out in Redemption that Harbinger was right there when Liara ran off with Shepard's body - if it really was the first time it runs into Shepard on Horizon, we're supposed to believe that it gave up looking after taking out the Normandy and going to the lengths they did to obtain the body? I call BS.

Additionally, how did Wilson pull off bringing Shepard back to life? There's no indication of any kind that anyone knows how to bring back the dead in current galactic science, except Okeer who made a deal with the Collectors. My guess is that it took him two or more years to build Grunt and that TIM believed the Collectors to have the tech to revive Shepard. He told Wilson to discreetly inquire about bringing a loved one or dead wife back to life, get the tech and rebuild Shepard, while building the Normandy using his portfolio and Alliance backers. Wilson couldn't handle the pressure, however, because once the colonists started disappearing, he suspected the Collectors knew what he was doing and tried to make a deal with them so he could be spared at the expense of sabotaging the Lazarus project. Collectors find out about Shepard, but Wilson fails of course and they're back to the drawing board. TIM still doesn't have proof and gets lucky when Veetor recorded a Collector abduction, which further points to a lack of consistency with ensuring the plan to work - how did they not find him? 

So what the hell is really going on?

The Reapers set up the perfect diversion: send Cerberus and humanity's hero to avenge the deaths of useless humans that their tool - the ex-prothean collectors - baits Shepard to pursue so that the Reapers' real plan isn't tampered with or discovered:

The construction of a new mass relay that lets the Reapers invade from dark space outside of the Citadel's master control grid.

I believe the Heretic geth were not being deployed to ensure the project is completed because they were performing two tasks assigned by the Reapers - obtain a humongous amount of dark energy and build the relay. Hence, Haestrom's dying sun and inquiries into organic research of dark energy (Gianna hinted at hacking attempts on Noveria). I think the geth were close to completing the relay prior to Legion's mission and completing it will adversely affect the Reapers' plan, but not halt it entirely. Turning Legion over to Cerberus? Not as good as destroying or rewriting the geth, but useful nonetheless because their scientists are going to fully explore the most advanced geth mobile platform ever created and probably find out it was attempting to prevent the conversion of the geth into Reaper followers.

The Collector Base decision, in this context, is not a silver bullet like it looks but more of a chance to analyze the pinnacle of prothean R&D, husk technology, Reaper construction methods, and how the Collector cruisers were able to identify the Normandy, among other military tech, like the beam weapons, but isn't going to shift the balance of power all the way to your side.

This explains why the Collector plan in ME2 was so flimsy to me - it wasn't ever meant to be completely successful. The Reapers are described as patient and calculating by Vigil, and that would certainly fit as calculating to me. Besides, there are way too many tactical flaws in the Collector plan and threat to reasonably believe it was meant to work.

[TheLostGenius]

If the Reaper's were smart, the would be like "hey Commander Shepard always foils us!! Let's wait awhile until he dies of old age or something, THEN we an attack!"

[epoch_]

You're missing the biggest part of the base's protection, which was that you had to have the IFF to get there. Only reapers and the collectors have them.

[JMA22TB]

Ah yes, thanks for mentioning that.



A derelict Reaper that the their own had no idea about for millions of years? I call BS again. Another humongous flaw in their plan to protect the project - if they wanted to make sure absolutely no one ever got through the Omega 4 Relay they would have destroyed that hunk of scrap to make sure no one ever found out about it or any intel it could provide.



Kind of convenient it has exactly what we need and that the Reapers would certainly know we need to get through the Omega 4 Relay.

[Ecael]

While I agree that the Collector Base should have had more than one ship waiting to attack Shepard, you have to realize the Collectors and the Reapers didn't expect anyone to get through that relay in the first place. They don't hand out Collector/Reaper IFFs like candy, and finding one yourself is almost impossible.

Shepard has always had an extreme case of serendipity -- but that's video games for you. You might as well have asked why the Reapers didn't attack immediately after Shepard died, since that's when the galaxy would be the most vunerable. For Shepard to have even crossed the relay and reach the target, he needed:

1. A group that would fund a brand new ship and resurrect him (Cerberus)
2. The knowledge that the Collectors are behind it (Freedom's Progress)
3. A suit that wards off seeker swarms and testing it successfully (Mordin, Horizon)
4. The knowledge that Collectors use a Reaper IFF (Disabled Collector Vessel)
5. An actual IFF (37 million year old Reaper in the middle of nowhere)
6. An AI based on Reaper technology to integrate the IFF (EDI)
7. A pilot that can manuever the Omega-4 relay upon making it through (Joker)
8. A crew with all the abilities necessary to infiltrate a Reaper-based Homeworld

Is it supposed to be easy? For Commander Shepard, it should be. Everything works out fine when you're Shepard.

[Ecael]

JMA22TB wrote...

Ah yes, thanks for mentioning that.

A derelict Reaper that the their own had no idea about for millions of years? I call BS again. Another humongous flaw in their plan to protect the project - if they wanted to make sure absolutely no one ever got through the Omega 4 Relay they would have destroyed that hunk of scrap to make sure no one ever found out about it or any intel it could provide.

Kind of convenient it has exactly what we need and that the Reapers would certainly know we need to get through the Omega 4 Relay.

The Reapers send their own scouts to hide somewhere in the galaxy and contact them only when the time is right to harvest. Keeping constant contact with the rest of the Reapers might give away their location. Whichever Reaper it was that was scouting 37 million years ago (let's call him Bob) obviously failed to escape detection by an advanced civilization.

Bob the Reaper should have found a better hiding place.

[Nu-Nu]

Trying to compare this game to actual science is a bad idea, it'll just hurt. Just enjoy it for what it is. I mean fixing the brain would be the hardest thing to do, once it's gone/dead it's practically impossible to get it back to working order by today standards. Only rare vegetable coma patients come out of it and they usually have mental and physical problems.



So how they fix this problem? Sci Fi Magic!



I'm on the fence about who's causing the sun to go out and dark energy reading. I'm 50/50 it's either reapers or TIM. Why tim? If you do a good job by his standard, the sun behind him stays red. If you don't, it goes white, so could mean he has a back up plan because he thinks you'll wimp out/ fail.



Collectors were after Shepard, I think they were going to brainwash him/her and make him/her a main part of the reaper. And as for the collectors base, I like someone else's theory when the protheans used reaper technology, that was their downfall. It's going to have some kind of trap built into it for those who kept it.

[JMA22TB]

Ecael wrote...

While I agree that the Collector Base should have had more than one ship waiting to attack Shepard, you have to realize the Collectors and the Reapers didn't expect anyone to get through that relay in the first place. They don't hand out Collector/Reaper IFFs like candy, and finding one yourself is almost impossible.

Shepard has always had an extreme case of serendipity -- but that's video games for you. You might as well have asked why the Reapers didn't attack immediately after Shepard died, since that's when the galaxy would be the most vunerable. For Shepard to have even crossed the relay and reach the target, he needed:

1. A group that would fund a brand new ship and resurrect him (Cerberus)
2. The knowledge that the Collectors are behind it (Freedom's Progress)
3. A suit that wards off seeker swarms and testing it successfully (Mordin, Horizon)
4. The knowledge that Collectors use a Reaper IFF (Disabled Collector Vessel)
5. An actual IFF (37 million year old Reaper in the middle of nowhere)
6. An AI based on Reaper technology to integrate the IFF (EDI)
7. A pilot that can manuever the Omega-4 relay upon making it through (Joker)
8. A crew with all the abilities necessary to infiltrate a Reaper-based Homeworld

Is it supposed to be easy? For Commander Shepard, it should be. Everything works out fine when you're Shepard.

It being easy is comparative to the idea that the fleet protecting the Base, if the geth were deployed, would have be death on arrival. The Collectors apparently could see right through the stealth systems so why wouldn't they give the geth the capability to do so as well? That would be suicide.

I have seen a lot of comments about the defense of the Collector Base but what about the idea that it was a diversion?

[SonvarTheMighty]

Yeah it was convenient because after installing the IFF we have the collectors come to check it out and abduct everyone on the ship but Joker. The only reason being that Joker and the ship weren't destroyed was because of warping out of there afterwards. For this case I see it more as the Collectors wanting to gather people who had the capability of not only recovering that IFF but also to activate it.



The assault was done against a Collector base not their entire race. We'll most likely still see Collectors in ME3 as all we really faced was just one base of Collectors whose goal was just creating a new human reaper.



Was it meant to be a distraction to what bigger plans the Reapers had? I wouldn't be surprised at all if it is but it was still something they had hoped might still get done.

[JMA22TB]

Ecael wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

Ah yes, thanks for mentioning that.

A derelict Reaper that the their own had no idea about for millions of years? I call BS again. Another humongous flaw in their plan to protect the project - if they wanted to make sure absolutely no one ever got through the Omega 4 Relay they would have destroyed that hunk of scrap to make sure no one ever found out about it or any intel it could provide.

Kind of convenient it has exactly what we need and that the Reapers would certainly know we need to get through the Omega 4 Relay.

The Reapers send their own scouts to hide somewhere in the galaxy and contact them only when the time is right to harvest. Keeping constant contact with the rest of the Reapers might give away their location. Whichever Reaper it was that was scouting 37 million years ago (let's call him Bob) obviously failed to escape detection by an advanced civilization.

Bob the Reaper should have found a better hiding place.

I find it pretty hard to believe that there'd be no communication over 37 million years or a raised eyebrow to a scout disappearing. The timing was way too convenient - I believe TIM was tipped off to its location as another ploy in the grand diversion scheme to buy enough time for another way in for the Reaper fleet.

[Ecael]

Nu-Nu wrote...

Trying to compare this game to actual science is a bad idea, it'll just hurt. Just enjoy it for what it is. I mean fixing the brain would be the hardest thing to do, once it's gone/dead it's practically impossible to get it back to working order by today standards. Only rare vegetable coma patients come out of it and they usually have mental and physical problems.

In addition, mass effect fields are essentially science fiction. Traveling faster than light already seems impossible enough as it is, and the writers have pegged ~2150 as the year we discover the technology to do so - which is just as impossible.

If we're able to do all that, resurrecting someone isn't that much of a step above.

JMA22TB wrote...

It being easy is comparative to the idea that the fleet protecting the Base, if the geth were deployed, would have be death on arrival. The Collectors apparently could see right through the stealth systems so why wouldn't they give the geth the capability to do so as well? That would be suicide.

I have seen a lot of comments about the defense of the Collector Base but what about the idea that it was a diversion?

The geth worshiped Sovereign, and Sovereign died. The humans continued to wipe out the geth after the attack on the Citadel (since almost everyone thought that the geth were the "real threat"). The geth are useless to the Reapers now.

It's possible that the Collector Base was a diversion from the real Collector Homeworld, but why would anyone want to make another game with the same exact foe? Mass Effect 2's plot is good enough that it draws from Mass Effect 1 and leads into Mass Effect 3, all while being a standalone game in itself.

The only problem might occur if none of the characters from the sequel return to play any important role, because then the whole game (recruitment and loyalty) would feel like a complete waste of time.

Modifié par Ecael, 15 avril 2010 - 07:34 .

[JMA22TB]

SonvarTheMighty wrote...

Yeah it was convenient because after installing the IFF we have the collectors come to check it out and abduct everyone on the ship but Joker. The only reason being that Joker and the ship weren't destroyed was because of warping out of there afterwards. For this case I see it more as the Collectors wanting to gather people who had the capability of not only recovering that IFF but also to activate it.

The assault was done against a Collector base not their entire race. We'll most likely still see Collectors in ME3 as all we really faced was just one base of Collectors whose goal was just creating a new human reaper.

Was it meant to be a distraction to what bigger plans the Reapers had? I wouldn't be surprised at all if it is but it was still something they had hoped might still get done.

I don't think it was meant to be a total failure - if it was an obviously flimsy plan, two years wouldn't have gone by and thousands of colonists wouldn't have been abducted / slurpied. If it worked, it would be hilarious to the Reapers because they would have another one of them to carry out a backdoor plan to the Citadel again and if it didn't it bought them time to build another relay and invade. Win / Win.

[JMA22TB]

Ecael wrote...

Nu-Nu wrote...

Trying to compare this game to actual science is a bad idea, it'll just hurt. Just enjoy it for what it is. I mean fixing the brain would be the hardest thing to do, once it's gone/dead it's practically impossible to get it back to working order by today standards. Only rare vegetable coma patients come out of it and they usually have mental and physical problems.

In addition, mass effect fields are essentially science fiction. Traveling faster than light already seems impossible enough as it is, and the writers have pegged ~2150 as the year we discover the technology to do so - which is just as impossible.

If we're able to do all that, resurrecting someone isn't that much of a step above.

JMA22TB wrote...

It being easy is comparative to the idea that the fleet protecting the Base, if the geth were deployed, would have be death on arrival. The Collectors apparently could see right through the stealth systems so why wouldn't they give the geth the capability to do so as well? That would be suicide.

I have seen a lot of comments about the defense of the Collector Base but what about the idea that it was a diversion?

The geth worshiped Sovereign, and Sovereign died. The humans continued to wipe out the geth after the attack on the Citadel (since almost everyone thought that the geth were the "real threat"). The geth are useless to the Reapers now.

It's possible that the Collector Base was a diversion from the real Collector Homeworld, but why would anyone want to make another game with the same exact foe? Mass Effect 2's plot is good enough that it draws from Mass Effect 1 and leads into Mass Effect 3, all while being a standalone game in itself.

The only problem might occur if none of the characters from the sequel return to play any important role, because then the whole game (recruitment and loyalty) would feel like a complete waste of time.

I disagree - the Heretic Base wasn't found or destroyed by humanity and their roles as laborers can't be ignored - they aren't affected by vacuum environments and that would facilitate building a relay and handling dark energy, which if biotics is any indication, is a bigger problem for organics than synthetics.

Never mentioned anything about a Collector Homeworld, and I don't think there is one - the Collectors, as Mordin suggested, are not sentient anymore - they're basically an organic version of the geth, requiring a master mind to control them. The diversion is about distracting the attention to a plan that wasn't going to work and building a backdoor that the Reaper fleet can access to invade.

[Ecael]

JMA22TB wrote...

I disagree - the Heretic Base wasn't found or destroyed by humanity and their roles as laborers can't be ignored - they aren't affected by vacuum environments and that would facilitate building a relay and handling dark energy, which if biotics is any indication, is a bigger problem for organics than synthetics.

Never mentioned anything about a Collector Homeworld, and I don't think there is one - the Collectors, as Mordin suggested, are not sentient anymore - they're basically an organic version of the geth, requiring a master mind to control them. The diversion is about distracting the attention to a plan that wasn't going to work and building a backdoor that the Reaper fleet can access to invade.

At the same time, Heretic Station is hidden enough that even the Reapers/Old Machines can't find those worshipers either.

I apologize for misunderstanding what you meant by diversion. The Reapers could be building a backdoor to invade, but if they were successful before, the galaxy would have already been eliminated at the end of Mass Effect 1, wouldn't it?

[bergerrz]

I love this post very thought provoking. A+

[Mercuriol]

JMA22TB wrote...

Furthermore, we find out in Redemption that Harbinger was right there when Liara ran off with Shepard's body - if it really was the first time it runs into Shepard on Horizon, we're supposed to believe that it gave up looking after taking out the Normandy and going to the lengths they did to obtain the body? I call BS.

Well the Normandy did send a distress signal. Seeing how Mass Effect tech works, a small fleet could have been there quite fast. Meanwhile he crashed somewhere onto the planet, so it'd probably take a while to find (and identify ) him.

[Nu-Nu]

Also, something has to bring the reapers here or shepard to them because they are way out of Shepard's reach from what I gathered, unless me3 is set 10 years in the future.

[epoch_]

Ecael wrote...


Bob the Reaper should have found a better hiding place.

I just got a really funny image of this giant reaper hiding behind a tiny moon or something.

[Xpheyel]

TheLostGenius wrote...

If the Reaper's were smart, the would be like "hey Commander Shepard always foils us!! Let's wait awhile until he dies of old age or something, THEN we an attack!"

Well they did kill him. It wasn't necessarily a bad plan. 

I would actually guess that the justification for stepping up their operations is that they don't know how complacent the Citadel races are going to be after Sovereign's attack. Despite their individual power, the Citadel and control over the Relay network are still lynch pins of their plans. All the Protheans managed to do was fiddle with the keepers a little and make a one-way scaled down Relay and it completely fricked up the subsequent invasion. 

[Cra5y Pineapple]

They're obviously a diversion created by Harbinger.



I'm personally hoping that the Reapers will enter the Milky Way in ME3. Though be using something other than Husks and Scions. I hated those so much.

[Ecael]

epoch_ wrote...

Ecael wrote...


Bob the Reaper should have found a better hiding place.

I just got a really funny image of this giant reaper hiding behind a tiny moon or something.

I was thinking more on the lines of:



He is the vanguard of your construction.

[Xpheyel]

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

They're obviously a diversion created by Harbinger.

I'm personally hoping that the Reapers will enter the Milky Way in ME3. Though be using something other than Husks and Scions. I hated those so much.

Probably they will, except the Scions will be fast. 

[Kalak]

Personally, I felt that the Collectors actually had multiple cruisers, but that some of them might still have been out hunting for human Colonies. Be really awkward for them when they return thru the O4 relay and find out what happened. Of course.....if there's more Collector ships out there......I smell some new DLC.

[bergerrz]

Ecael wrote...

epoch_ wrote...

Ecael wrote...


Bob the Reaper should have found a better hiding place.

I just got a really funny image of this giant reaper hiding behind a tiny moon or something.

I was thinking more on the lines of:



He is the vanguard of your construction.

LOL You just made my day Ecael