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[Onyx Jaguar]

*walks into thread*



*realized that some people underestimate how massive the scope of space is*



*walks out of thread*

[Looper128]

@JMA22TB



I really like your theory,

[JMA22TB]

Ecael wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

I disagree - the Heretic Base wasn't found or destroyed by humanity and their roles as laborers can't be ignored - they aren't affected by vacuum environments and that would facilitate building a relay and handling dark energy, which if biotics is any indication, is a bigger problem for organics than synthetics.

Never mentioned anything about a Collector Homeworld, and I don't think there is one - the Collectors, as Mordin suggested, are not sentient anymore - they're basically an organic version of the geth, requiring a master mind to control them. The diversion is about distracting the attention to a plan that wasn't going to work and building a backdoor that the Reaper fleet can access to invade.

At the same time, Heretic Station is hidden enough that even the Reapers/Old Machines can't find those worshipers either.

I apologize for misunderstanding what you meant by diversion. The Reapers could be building a backdoor to invade, but if they were successful before, the galaxy would have already been eliminated at the end of Mass Effect 1, wouldn't it?

It's all good :happy: you have a really good history of being awesome so I won't judge.

I would assume that building a mass relay takes a while and requires a ton of resources, so it would make sense that the Reapers would need a cover

[JMA22TB]

bergerrz wrote...

I love this post very thought provoking. A+

lopper128 wrote...
@JMA22TB



I really like your theory,

Thank you

I'm pretty sure something like this is up Bioware's sleeve - the comment they made about having some tricks up their sleeves gives me confidence they've got a really, really good one cooking up in ME3

Modifié par JMA22TB, 15 avril 2010 - 11:50 .

[JMA22TB]

bump

[JMA22TB]

Pr0diigY wrote...

Wow JMA22TB how did you decipher this? and how long did it take you?

That is probably the best explanation on this site. Excellent job sir

Thank you

It took a while, not gonna lie. After reading a lot of criticisms and praises of the Collector story and really digging into the details, I reached the conclusion that there was no way that the Reapers, who are bent on hitting the reset button on all spacefaring life, wouldn't heavily fortify the human slurpie project or utilize a pawn they've already used to guarantee its success. Sure, the IFF and Omega 4 Relay are a damn good defense, but if they were so bent on making sure no one got the IFF, they would have discovered a derelict Reaper at some point in the last 37 million years and salvaged it / destroyed it. There would have been a geth fleet, a defense on the base itself, and anti-air defenses.

There has to be something else going on, there's no way the Reapers are that stupid

[ToJKa1]

epoch_ wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Bob the Reaper should have found a better hiding place.

...He is the vanguard of your construction.

LMAO! This is why i keep reading these forums

And a very interesting theory OP, i'm not sure if i buy it, but it is an intersting possibility. Now that i think about it, the Collectors were a pretty half-assed villain. What could they accomplish with a single Reaper anyway? After all Sovereign failed too. Or perhaps the Reapers though that building it from the species that destroyed Sovereign would make it more powerful?

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Ecael wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

Ah yes, thanks for mentioning that.

A derelict Reaper that the their own had no idea about for millions of years? I call BS again. Another humongous flaw in their plan to protect the project - if they wanted to make sure absolutely no one ever got through the Omega 4 Relay they would have destroyed that hunk of scrap to make sure no one ever found out about it or any intel it could provide.

Kind of convenient it has exactly what we need and that the Reapers would certainly know we need to get through the Omega 4 Relay.

The Reapers send their own scouts to hide somewhere in the galaxy and contact them only when the time is right to harvest. Keeping constant contact with the rest of the Reapers might give away their location. Whichever Reaper it was that was scouting 37 million years ago (let's call him Bob) obviously failed to escape detection by an advanced civilization.

Bob the Reaper should have found a better hiding place.

[smudboy]

Pr0diigY wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

Pr0diigY wrote...

Wow JMA22TB how did you decipher this? and how long did it take you?

That is probably the best explanation on this site. Excellent job sir

Thank you

It took a while, not gonna lie. After reading a lot of criticisms and praises of the Collector story and really digging into the details, I reached the conclusion that there was no way that the Reapers, who are bent on hitting the reset button on all spacefaring life, wouldn't heavily fortify the human slurpie project or utilize a pawn they've already used to guarantee its success. Sure, the IFF and Omega 4 Relay are a damn good defense, but if they were so bent on making sure no one got the IFF, they would have discovered a derelict Reaper at some point in the last 37 million years and salvaged it / destroyed it. There would have been a geth fleet, a defense on the base itself, and anti-air defenses.

There has to be something else going on, there's no way the Reapers are that stupid

Very true sir, most likely the writers did these "plotholes" to make the Storyline for ME 3 a lot more "flexible", so they can alter it anyway they want., As well as less predictable.

That is definitely a "positive" outlook on the word "plothole" I've ever "seen".

*runs around outside screaming insanely*

But seriously, JMA22TB raises the point that could be a clever eventuality (a la Vigil) that the Reapers had already thought out, that potentially TIM was aware of.  Within context, Reapers are very good at hiding things.  Either that, or Harbinger was just batsh*t crazy, playing with his dolls, making a bigger doll, totally not caring about whatever his non-sane buddies were doing.

[Ecael]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Bob the Reaper should have found a better hiding place.

Awesome Motivator. You should post it up on the sticky'd Motivator thread too!

[JMA22TB]

smudboy wrote...

Pr0diigY wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

Pr0diigY wrote...

Wow JMA22TB how did you decipher this? and how long did it take you?

That is probably the best explanation on this site. Excellent job sir

Thank you

It took a while, not gonna lie. After reading a lot of criticisms and praises of the Collector story and really digging into the details, I reached the conclusion that there was no way that the Reapers, who are bent on hitting the reset button on all spacefaring life, wouldn't heavily fortify the human slurpie project or utilize a pawn they've already used to guarantee its success. Sure, the IFF and Omega 4 Relay are a damn good defense, but if they were so bent on making sure no one got the IFF, they would have discovered a derelict Reaper at some point in the last 37 million years and salvaged it / destroyed it. There would have been a geth fleet, a defense on the base itself, and anti-air defenses.

There has to be something else going on, there's no way the Reapers are that stupid

Very true sir, most likely the writers did these "plotholes" to make the Storyline for ME 3 a lot more "flexible", so they can alter it anyway they want., As well as less predictable.

That is definitely a "positive" outlook on the word "plothole" I've ever "seen".

*runs around outside screaming insanely*

But seriously, JMA22TB raises the point that could be a clever eventuality (a la Vigil) that the Reapers had already thought out, that potentially TIM was aware of.  Within context, Reapers are very good at hiding things.  Either that, or Harbinger was just batsh*t crazy, playing with his dolls, making a bigger doll, totally not caring about whatever his non-sane buddies were doing.

I don't think that Harbinger and Co. were bluffing regarding building the Reaper - it's more of them showing the silly humans their fate once they, the Reapers, succeed. In addition, should the silly humans not figure out the other plan, they'll keep looking for clues, but with a false sense of victory, letting their emotions fog the goggles so to speak.

In addition, the Reapers' technology is pretty quick to betray the user - look what happened with the IFF in the immediate aftermath of its installation. We still don't know how much EDI was affected by its effects .  Who's to say the Collector Base is much more dangerous an acquisition than profitable? In the context of a diversion, the Base would then be a fool's gold mine that gives the Reapers intel or more servants through indoctrination-based failsafes in their tech. Of course, TIM isn't an idiot so he'd make sure any compromising parts of the operation are dealt with quickly, but the last line of the book Retribution about how his experiments on Grayson might bring back the Reapers somehow is telling...

[Masticetobbacco]

so how would "capturing" the collector base even work?



Cerberus just sends their scientists and a fleet to guard the area? Wouldn't they come under so many collector attacks that they would just collapse? Also TIM probably had come up with a counter against indoctrination for the workers in this base, but you never know what can happen with reapers >.>

[JMA22TB]

Masticetobbacco wrote...

so how would "capturing" the collector base even work?

Cerberus just sends their scientists and a fleet to guard the area? Wouldn't they come under so many collector attacks that they would just collapse? Also TIM probably had come up with a counter against indoctrination for the workers in this base, but you never know what can happen with reapers >.>

Not entirely sure the Collectors are able to reproduce; that might really have been all of them during the Suicide Mission. Mordin touched on how their organs have been replaced by tech - if that's true we probably wiped them all out.

I'd guess that there'd be a lot of personnel losses, but some huge breakthrough among others, that legitimizes the base's acquisition - wouldn't be good to have on your conscience as Shepard, but ends justify the means for Renegade right? Of course, in the context of the diversion, humanity would be empowered but the Reapers could be observing them the entire time we research the last of the Protheans' technology and whatever the Reapers left us on the base.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

JMA22TB wrote...

Not entirely sure the Collectors are able to reproduce; that might really have been all of them during the Suicide Mission. Mordin touched on how their organs have been replaced by tech - if that's true we probably wiped them all out.

Believe they are cloned if i remember correctly.

[DarthRic]

Deleted

Modifié par DarthRic, 18 avril 2010 - 12:34 .

[JMA22TB]

I don't really know the science of it, honestly, but I would imagine that a lot of resources would be necessary to build a mass relay.

[DarthRic]

Deleted

Modifié par DarthRic, 18 avril 2010 - 12:34 .

[Solar Flare]

epoch_ wrote...

You're missing the biggest part of the base's protection, which was that you had to have the IFF to get there. Only reapers and the collectors have them.

This is actually a rather pointless statement, since anyone could actually get through, they're just not guaranteed to not hit debris or run into the black hole.

Case in point, Shepard gets through fine (for the most part, almost dies due to crashing into a ship though) with the IFF, and if you captured the base, TIM sends like 4 or 5 other ships to go and occupy the base.  These other ships most certainly did not have the IFF for a few key reasons.  First, you only found one Reaper IFF in the dead Reaper.  Second, you installed your single Reaper IFF in your ship, which is now on the OTHER side of the Mass Relay, meaning you can't go back and then hand it off to a different ship and so on.  Third,  it's Reaper tech, you're not just going to magically create four more in the time span of a few hours, especially when you don't fully understand the technology in the first place.

[JMA22TB]

DarthRic wrote...

I dispute the theory that the collectors were a diversion with one line from harbinger
"You have failed! we will find another way"
If they were a diversion then what did they fail at? It seems clear from this that it was intended for the human-reaper to fulfil soverign's role, with that failing harbinger says they will find another way to return (hence they all reactivate, point the relay on their end at another mass relay and start conquering organic species)

So you believe that by the ridiculous stroke of luck that is the events of ME2 - finding a derelict corpse of a Reaper, running into intel of the Collectors on Horizon mid-invasion, the Collectors laying a trap for you, and facing a pretty miserable amount of resistance in comparison to what they could have done to protect this "super-important project" - is really the primary motive? 

Honestly, who cares what Harbinger says to them? A tool's a tool. Until there's no evidence they don't have anything else planned, I seriously doubt a plan that flimsy is the primary plan of the architects of galactic society. Look at how GENIUS their last plan was... Shepard barely stopped the galactic Apocalypse, so I refuse to believe they suddenly went from geniuses to morons.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Solar Flare wrote...

epoch_ wrote...

You're missing the biggest part of the base's protection, which was that you had to have the IFF to get there. Only reapers and the collectors have them.

This is actually a rather pointless statement, since anyone could actually get through, they're just not guaranteed to not hit debris or run into the black hole.

not an pointless statement, you would have to be really lucky not to run into an blackhole/sun in the middle of the galactic core of all places.

[smudboy]

JMA22TB wrote...

DarthRic wrote...

I dispute the theory that the collectors were a diversion with one line from harbinger
"You have failed! we will find another way"
If they were a diversion then what did they fail at? It seems clear from this that it was intended for the human-reaper to fulfil soverign's role, with that failing harbinger says they will find another way to return (hence they all reactivate, point the relay on their end at another mass relay and start conquering organic species)

So you believe that by the ridiculous stroke of luck that is the events of ME2 - finding a derelict corpse of a Reaper, running into intel of the Collectors on Horizon mid-invasion, the Collectors laying a trap for you, and facing a pretty miserable amount of resistance in comparison to what they could have done to protect this "super-important project" - is really the primary motive? 

Honestly, who cares what Harbinger says to them? A tool's a tool. Until there's no evidence they don't have anything else planned, I seriously doubt a plan that flimsy is the primary plan of the architects of galactic society. Look at how GENIUS their last plan was... Shepard barely stopped the galactic Apocalypse, so I refuse to believe they suddenly went from geniuses to morons.

Just a little aside: this would help explain why they didn't collect Ashley/Kaidan on Horizon, despite going there for the specific reason that Ashley/Kaidan was there, to get to Shepard.

(Though JMA22TB would argue it's to mess with Shepard's mind, I'd argue Harbinger just wanted to have his dolls play with Shepard.  Little bit 'o crazy-fun.)

Also the "find another way" and "you have failed": find another way to do what?  Failed at what?  We have no idea why Harbinger was building a Reaper: if that's what we're lead to believe.  One simple explanation is intel gathering: checking out what Shepard's all about, while biding their time, waiting for their over-mind to compute the best strategy, testing the limits of their new obstacle.

[FoFoZem]

It's a space opera, not a hard science fiction novel.