125 réponses à ce sujet

[JMA22TB]

The Collector threat alone is nowhere near as sophisticated, deceptive, or, most importantly, as very imminently successful as ME's Saren plot by the Reapers. They were too good as the puppet master in ME to have fallen so far in ME2, resorting to kidnapping people while their forces are still able to respond, risking discovery in any way, and not attempting to destroy the one link the opposition has to their base. If the Collectors are able to spring a trap that they know TIM will act on - faking their ship's disabled - how would they not know that not only did Cerberus find a derelict Reaper but deployed a research team on it?



It's not like the Collectors made an attempt to fortify the base - Harbinger could have the Collectors waltz right up to the Heretics and transmit to them that Nazara sends its regards. Open sesame, welcome to the team, let's kick some Shepard ass. Doesn't happen.



I don't buy the Reapers wanting to actually attempt to harvest the hottest thing going in humanity into extinction right from under their noses while they have a Council seat and possibly one of the more powerful galactic naval forces, next to the turians. It's too stupid to believe is the main plan.

[Bucky_McLachlan]

Dude no offense but if I could I'd punch you through my computer screen, I just like hitting walls.

Modifié par Bucky_McLachlan, 18 avril 2010 - 03:54 .

[JMA22TB]

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Dude no offense but if I could I'd punch you through my computer screen, I just like hitting walls.

That's pretty weak. This is an internet forum.

Bring something good to the discussion or get out.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

JMA22TB wrote...


It's not like the Collectors made an attempt to fortify the base - Harbinger could have the Collectors waltz right up to the Heretics and transmit to them that Nazara sends its regards. Open sesame, welcome to the team, let's kick some Shepard ass. Doesn't happen.

I don't buy the Reapers wanting to actually attempt to harvest the hottest thing going in humanity into extinction right from under their noses while they have a Council seat and possibly one of the more powerful galactic naval forces, next to the turians. It's too stupid to believe is the main plan.

I highly doubt it's the main plan and you also assume that the heretics will listen to harbinger... and know where the heretics are. They are in the middle of solar systems after all just sitting there.

[adam_grif]

The collectors were hilarious pushovers. The SR2 without any upgrades takes them the **** down, destroying a cruiser a zillion times it's size, storming their base of operations and killing uncountable numbers of collector drones on their home turf, and then totaling the base / capturing it.



The collectors being pushovers, while highly amusing and not reflecting well on the writing staff, is nothing compared to the stupidity that is Commander Shepard and TiM being totally OK with the plan to storm what they think is a planet full of collectors with a fleet of ships.



If there were like 5 collector bases, what would have happened? What if there were 3 cruisers? What if it actually was a planet full of collectors, and they were a whole civilization, not just one space station? What if there wasn't a convenient weak spot to overload?



The point isn't that it was a suicide mission, it's that it was a suicide mission that had no chance of succeeding. Every bit of information they had pointed towards it being impossible not just to survive, but to actually do what they wanted to do (Stop the reapers). They had no clue what to do, and their plan was "jump to the other side and .................. blow them all up!" This more than anything else represents the largest plot hole in the game. The insurmountable stupidity of every crew member on the SR2, and everybody in the employ of TIM. Nobody even brought it up.

[JMA22TB]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...


It's not like the Collectors made an attempt to fortify the base - Harbinger could have the Collectors waltz right up to the Heretics and transmit to them that Nazara sends its regards. Open sesame, welcome to the team, let's kick some Shepard ass. Doesn't happen.

I don't buy the Reapers wanting to actually attempt to harvest the hottest thing going in humanity into extinction right from under their noses while they have a Council seat and possibly one of the more powerful galactic naval forces, next to the turians. It's too stupid to believe is the main plan.

I highly doubt it's the main plan and you also assume that the heretics will listen to harbinger... and know where the heretics are. They are in the middle of solar systems after all just sitting there.

I would assume that Sovereign would have relayed communication about the geth to Harbinger to keep it in the loop as it planned to have Saren activate the Citadel as a precaution. It only took a month for the Collectors to mount a counter-attack on Shepard and nearly retrieve his body, so I'm pretty sure Harbinger knows quite a few things, especially former allies of Sovereign.

I don't have proof but it fits.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

JMA22TB wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...


It's not like the Collectors made an attempt to fortify the base - Harbinger could have the Collectors waltz right up to the Heretics and transmit to them that Nazara sends its regards. Open sesame, welcome to the team, let's kick some Shepard ass. Doesn't happen.

I don't buy the Reapers wanting to actually attempt to harvest the hottest thing going in humanity into extinction right from under their noses while they have a Council seat and possibly one of the more powerful galactic naval forces, next to the turians. It's too stupid to believe is the main plan.

I highly doubt it's the main plan and you also assume that the heretics will listen to harbinger... and know where the heretics are. They are in the middle of solar systems after all just sitting there.

I would assume that Sovereign would have relayed communication about the geth to Harbinger to keep it in the loop as it planned to have Saren activate the Citadel as a precaution. It only took a month for the Collectors to mount a counter-attack on Shepard and nearly retrieve his body, so I'm pretty sure Harbinger knows quite a few things, especially former allies of Sovereign.

I don't have proof but it fits.

not nessary. I don't think reapers share puppets that's the thing. They are all an bunch of arrogant ***es. Also, assuming harbringer did contact the geth herectics I think they were waiting to re-unite all the geth as an singular force.-

[Sajuro]

What I'm getting from this is that the reapers are all complete pricks

[JMA22TB]

adam_grif wrote...

The collectors were hilarious pushovers. The SR2 without any upgrades takes them the **** down, destroying a cruiser a zillion times it's size, storming their base of operations and killing uncountable numbers of collector drones on their home turf, and then totaling the base / capturing it.

The collectors being pushovers, while highly amusing and not reflecting well on the writing staff, is nothing compared to the stupidity that is Commander Shepard and TiM being totally OK with the plan to storm what they think is a planet full of collectors with a fleet of ships.

If there were like 5 collector bases, what would have happened? What if there were 3 cruisers? What if it actually was a planet full of collectors, and they were a whole civilization, not just one space station? What if there wasn't a convenient weak spot to overload?

The point isn't that it was a suicide mission, it's that it was a suicide mission that had no chance of succeeding. Every bit of information they had pointed towards it being impossible not just to survive, but to actually do what they wanted to do (Stop the reapers). They had no clue what to do, and their plan was "jump to the other side and .................. blow them all up!" This more than anything else represents the largest plot hole in the game. The insurmountable stupidity of every crew member on the SR2, and everybody in the employ of TIM. Nobody even brought it up.

That's why I think it has to be a trap or a diversion - there was so much they could do to eliminate Shepard and defend the base that they didn't. It's like they were escorting you to destroy the Collectors, not protecting them.

Their first plan was a trap that sprung and Shepard caught mid-spring, their second plan has to be another trap it's too silly not to be.

[this isnt my name]

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Dude no offense but if I could I'd punch you through my computer screen, I just like hitting walls.

Stupid thing to say before you say you want to hit someone. I assume that was directed at me, so I will be clear, I feel the same way. But I say go for it, if you break your computer trying you wont be on here for a while, if you punch hard enough it might happen, do it.
But seriously for someone who says they dont give a damn you sure do make annoying replies.

[JMA22TB]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...


It's not like the Collectors made an attempt to fortify the base - Harbinger could have the Collectors waltz right up to the Heretics and transmit to them that Nazara sends its regards. Open sesame, welcome to the team, let's kick some Shepard ass. Doesn't happen.

I don't buy the Reapers wanting to actually attempt to harvest the hottest thing going in humanity into extinction right from under their noses while they have a Council seat and possibly one of the more powerful galactic naval forces, next to the turians. It's too stupid to believe is the main plan.

I highly doubt it's the main plan and you also assume that the heretics will listen to harbinger... and know where the heretics are. They are in the middle of solar systems after all just sitting there.

I would assume that Sovereign would have relayed communication about the geth to Harbinger to keep it in the loop as it planned to have Saren activate the Citadel as a precaution. It only took a month for the Collectors to mount a counter-attack on Shepard and nearly retrieve his body, so I'm pretty sure Harbinger knows quite a few things, especially former allies of Sovereign.

I don't have proof but it fits.

not nessary. I don't think reapers share puppets that's the thing. They are all an bunch of arrogant ***es. Also, assuming harbringer did contact the geth herectics I think they were waiting to re-unite all the geth as an singular force.-

Legion mentioned that there were thousands, possibly millions of mobile platforms on the station - ships, armatures, soldiers, drones, everything. That's enough resources to allocate the virus dispersal to the original geth, defend the Collector Base, and still have plenty left over to pursue Heretic - specific missions / gathering resources. I was specific about Nazara, which would have weight because the silly organics know it as Sovereign - the geth would understand that as authentic.

I doubt it matters to the Reapers as a whole which pawns are whose, but then again there's no way to really know for sure until ME3.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

JMA22TB wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...


It's not like the Collectors made an attempt to fortify the base - Harbinger could have the Collectors waltz right up to the Heretics and transmit to them that Nazara sends its regards. Open sesame, welcome to the team, let's kick some Shepard ass. Doesn't happen.

I don't buy the Reapers wanting to actually attempt to harvest the hottest thing going in humanity into extinction right from under their noses while they have a Council seat and possibly one of the more powerful galactic naval forces, next to the turians. It's too stupid to believe is the main plan.

I highly doubt it's the main plan and you also assume that the heretics will listen to harbinger... and know where the heretics are. They are in the middle of solar systems after all just sitting there.

I would assume that Sovereign would have relayed communication about the geth to Harbinger to keep it in the loop as it planned to have Saren activate the Citadel as a precaution. It only took a month for the Collectors to mount a counter-attack on Shepard and nearly retrieve his body, so I'm pretty sure Harbinger knows quite a few things, especially former allies of Sovereign.

I don't have proof but it fits.

not nessary. I don't think reapers share puppets that's the thing. They are all an bunch of arrogant ***es. Also, assuming harbringer did contact the geth herectics I think they were waiting to re-unite all the geth as an singular force.-

Legion mentioned that there were thousands, possibly millions of mobile platforms on the station - ships, armatures, soldiers, drones, everything. That's enough resources to allocate the virus dispersal to the original geth, defend the Collector Base, and still have plenty left over to pursue Heretic - specific missions / gathering resources. I was specific about Nazara, which would have weight because the silly organics know it as Sovereign - the geth would understand that as authentic.

I doubt it matters to the Reapers as a whole which pawns are whose, but then again there's no way to really know for sure until ME3.

I bet it does. Does it really look like Harbringer and Soverign are the type to share their toys?

Also Would you rather deploy that 15% of force around the collector base, or use them to re-unite with the geth and then start launching attacks all over the place making sheppard forced to deal with them? That is another part of the plan that only makes sense if you consider this. The herectics may have thousands of platforms etc, but they don't hold against turian, asari etc base fleets.. but all of the geth united... probably give an run for their money.

[JMA22TB]

And I agree



There are so many platforms to work with, they could accomplish both of those goals at the same time.



My point is that, like Legion mentioned, the Heretics worship Nazara to be a God giving them direction. Even if Harbinger despises the insects, he would use them if they're useful, just like he's using the Collectors. Besides, two birds one stone just like you said. You approach the heretic geth, tell them you can bring them what Nazara did not, help them infect the other Geth, and you've got all the shock troops you could possibly want AND a perfect defense to completely wipe out silly little Shepard once the Normandy gets through the Omega 4 relay.



Hell, you could mount a freaking war with the Citadel with the entire geth, just like they did with the Rachni, immediately afterwards, using the newly dispatched Normandy and EDI, which I'm sure Harbinger would cook up a way to corrupt, activate the Citadel relay and boom! everyone's dead, humanity's made a new Reaper, the rest of the species are wiped out and the cycle is done.



That would have been genius on their end to pull off - but it doesn't happen so I'm hoping that something else that's genius is happening without Shepard's immediate knowledge

[this isnt my name]

Thing aboout the rachni whats to stp harbinger controling a queen again, one queen and he has an army.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

JMA22TB wrote...

And I agree

There are so many platforms to work with, they could accomplish both of those goals at the same time.

My point is that, like Legion mentioned, the Heretics worship Nazara to be a God giving them direction. Even if Harbinger despises the insects, he would use them if they're useful, just like he's using the Collectors. Besides, two birds one stone just like you said. You approach the heretic geth, tell them you can bring them what Nazara did not, help them infect the other Geth, and you've got all the shock troops you could possibly want AND a perfect defense to completely wipe out silly little Shepard once the Normandy gets through the Omega 4 relay.

Hell, you could mount a freaking war with the Citadel with the entire geth, just like they did with the Rachni, immediately afterwards, using the newly dispatched Normandy and EDI, which I'm sure Harbinger would cook up a way to corrupt, activate the Citadel relay and boom! everyone's dead, humanity's made a new Reaper, the rest of the species are wiped out and the cycle is done.

That would have been genius on their end to pull off - but it doesn't happen so I'm hoping that something else that's genius is happening without Shepard's immediate knowledge

or we stopped them on legion's mission shortly before they could initate this plan.

[JMA22TB]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

And I agree

There are so many platforms to work with, they could accomplish both of those goals at the same time.

My point is that, like Legion mentioned, the Heretics worship Nazara to be a God giving them direction. Even if Harbinger despises the insects, he would use them if they're useful, just like he's using the Collectors. Besides, two birds one stone just like you said. You approach the heretic geth, tell them you can bring them what Nazara did not, help them infect the other Geth, and you've got all the shock troops you could possibly want AND a perfect defense to completely wipe out silly little Shepard once the Normandy gets through the Omega 4 relay.

Hell, you could mount a freaking war with the Citadel with the entire geth, just like they did with the Rachni, immediately afterwards, using the newly dispatched Normandy and EDI, which I'm sure Harbinger would cook up a way to corrupt, activate the Citadel relay and boom! everyone's dead, humanity's made a new Reaper, the rest of the species are wiped out and the cycle is done.

That would have been genius on their end to pull off - but it doesn't happen so I'm hoping that something else that's genius is happening without Shepard's immediate knowledge

or we stopped them on legion's mission shortly before they could initate this plan.

Entirely possible, but like Legion said, any dispatched heretics acting outside of the main hub would be converted upon logging back into their network - so a relay building group would be coming back to the main Geth having just realized they enabled the Reapers to come back

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

JMA22TB wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

And I agree

There are so many platforms to work with, they could accomplish both of those goals at the same time.

My point is that, like Legion mentioned, the Heretics worship Nazara to be a God giving them direction. Even if Harbinger despises the insects, he would use them if they're useful, just like he's using the Collectors. Besides, two birds one stone just like you said. You approach the heretic geth, tell them you can bring them what Nazara did not, help them infect the other Geth, and you've got all the shock troops you could possibly want AND a perfect defense to completely wipe out silly little Shepard once the Normandy gets through the Omega 4 relay.

Hell, you could mount a freaking war with the Citadel with the entire geth, just like they did with the Rachni, immediately afterwards, using the newly dispatched Normandy and EDI, which I'm sure Harbinger would cook up a way to corrupt, activate the Citadel relay and boom! everyone's dead, humanity's made a new Reaper, the rest of the species are wiped out and the cycle is done.

That would have been genius on their end to pull off - but it doesn't happen so I'm hoping that something else that's genius is happening without Shepard's immediate knowledge

or we stopped them on legion's mission shortly before they could initate this plan.

Entirely possible, but like Legion said, any dispatched heretics acting outside of the main hub would be converted upon logging back into their network - so a relay building group would be coming back to the main Geth having just realized they enabled the Reapers to come back

another possiblity, I wonder how that will play out in ME3.

[adam_grif]

JMA22TB wrote...

That's why I think it has to be a trap or a diversion - there was so much they could do to eliminate Shepard and defend the base that they didn't. It's like they were escorting you to destroy the Collectors, not protecting them.

Their first plan was a trap that sprung and Shepard caught mid-spring, their second plan has to be another trap it's too silly not to be.

I'd really like it to be a trap, but I'm struggling to think of what they achieved by having you blow up more of their stuff and foil more of their plans. The relatively light defenses can be handwaved as "they didn't think anything could get through the O4 relay" (of course, they did have defenses so this is a bid dodgy),  but there is nothing that could concievably be achieved by coaxing them into attacking and destroying the collector base. If they wanted it blown up, they could easily have destroyed it themselves. If they were aiming to kill Shepard, they could have put in markedly stronger defenses, or blown up the station while he was on it. Why would they have bothered filling it with humans and starting the construction of the Human Reaper? Is this not a monumental waste of time, effort and resources? Simply bombing human colonies would have been more than sufficient if their aim was simply to attract attention and initiate a counter-attack through the O4 relay. Their plan would thus hinge on people finding the Derilict Reaper and getting the IFF from it, which is a highly questionable assumption to make.

[Bucky_McLachlan]

JMA22TB wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Dude no offense but if I could I'd punch you through my computer screen, I just like hitting walls.

That's pretty weak. This is an internet forum.

Bring something good to the discussion or get out.

I did and it pretty much destroyed your whole argument except that you don't seem to understand that. Hence you're like hitting a wall.

It's pretty hilarious that you're basing these things off the simple fact that the game isn't difficult combat wise.

Have fun with your baseless speculation bro.

Modifié par Bucky_McLachlan, 18 avril 2010 - 08:43 .

[Bucky_McLachlan]

this isnt my name wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Dude no offense but if I could I'd punch you through my computer screen, I just like hitting walls.

Stupid thing to say before you say you want to hit someone. I assume that was directed at me, so I will be clear, I feel the same way. But I say go for it, if you break your computer trying you wont be on here for a while, if you punch hard enough it might happen, do it.
But seriously for someone who says they dont give a damn you sure do make annoying replies.

No it wasn't directed at you, but for someone whose so convinced you're making good arguments here you sure are pretty damn stupid.

There is a plothole involving the Collectors. But it has everything to do with the stupid story centered around recruiting the most awesome rockstars in the galaxy to carry out a suicide mission to take out a mostly unknown enemy that they have no idea how to actually defeat, and nothing to do with the Collectors not helping Sovereign attack the Citadel.

This is like saying there is a plot hole in Star Wars because Yoda was hiding out on Dagobah and was never seen or heard of at all in the original Star Wars or because the Empire did not have their entire fleet stationed around the Death Star.

Honestly you could apply the same exact flimsy argument to almost every single trilogy ever made. Especially in the Sci-Fi or Fantasy genre. There's always some new sh*t you never heard about or saw in the first part, the bar is raised, new enemies and allies are introduced. Not a plot hole!

It actually was explained pretty clearly that Sovereign was acting out of desperation and impatience when he attacked the Citadel having spent millenia trying to build alliances in order to restore the cycle of extinction again. Hell that was pretty well understood in the first game actually.

Anyways obviously whether or not the Collectors were there to help Sovereign would have failed. That's pretty clear. They wouldn't make a video game where you actually can't beat it. Crazy I know.

Modifié par Bucky_McLachlan, 18 avril 2010 - 09:26 .

[glasgoo21]

When reading this sort of treads, I always think, hmm, good theory, most of the time (unfortunately) it is to far fetched to be true, the developers or writers rarely interepreted it this way. They usualy just made something that looked nice as a mission, that pastes well in the overall story without realy thinking about the greater picture. I would be surprised if they went this far.

[smudboy]

adam_grif wrote...

The collectors were hilarious pushovers. The SR2 without any upgrades takes them the **** down, destroying a cruiser a zillion times it's size, storming their base of operations and killing uncountable numbers of collector drones on their home turf, and then totaling the base / capturing it.

The collectors being pushovers, while highly amusing and not reflecting well on the writing staff, is nothing compared to the stupidity that is Commander Shepard and TiM being totally OK with the plan to storm what they think is a planet full of collectors with a fleet of ships.

If there were like 5 collector bases, what would have happened? What if there were 3 cruisers? What if it actually was a planet full of collectors, and they were a whole civilization, not just one space station? What if there wasn't a convenient weak spot to overload?

The point isn't that it was a suicide mission, it's that it was a suicide mission that had no chance of succeeding. Every bit of information they had pointed towards it being impossible not just to survive, but to actually do what they wanted to do (Stop the reapers). They had no clue what to do, and their plan was "jump to the other side and .................. blow them all up!" This more than anything else represents the largest plot hole in the game. The insurmountable stupidity of every crew member on the SR2, and everybody in the employ of TIM. Nobody even brought it up.

I love you, man.

Man, I love you.

I'm going to go cry manly tears.

[smudboy]

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...
This is like saying there is a plot hole in Star Wars because Yoda was hiding out on Dagobah and was never seen or heard of at all in the original Star Wars or because the Empire did not have their entire fleet stationed around the Death Star.

Yeah, but Yoda wasn't a million year old super-intelligence machine remote controlling an army.  Who according to the rest of your post, had a desperate friend who tried to enact one of their master plans for all organic life: the cycle of destruction.  What would Harbinger care?  He's not at risk to be killed.  Just support his vanguard buddy to get the rest of his buddies into space.

Honestly you could apply the same exact flimsy argument to almost every single trilogy ever made. Especially in the Sci-Fi or Fantasy genre. There's always some new sh*t you never heard about or saw in the first part, the bar is raised, new enemies and allies are introduced. Not a plot hole!

The question becomes why the Reapers aren't communicating or having some proper plan, especially if one of them, Harbinger, can just connect remotely to an army he's had for 50k years.  I mean it sounds like he was camping the Milky Way galaxy.  So if Sovereign knew he had opposition and barriers to enact the Master Plan, why didn't he ask Harbinger?  This all really boils down to Shepard and Harbinger not having a talk a la ME1 Shepard and Sovereign.  We need to know the bad guy's motives, especially since in the first game, we learned Reapers consider organics as insignificant ants.

It actually was explained pretty clearly that Sovereign was acting out of desperation and impatience when he attacked the Citadel having spent millenia trying to build alliances in order to restore the cycle of extinction again. Hell that was pretty well understood in the first game actually.

Sovereign spent millena trying to build alliances with whom?  I missed that.

Anyways obviously whether or not the Collectors were there to help Sovereign would have failed. That's pretty clear. They wouldn't make a video game where you actually can't beat it. Crazy I know.

I don't think the issue is the gaming aspect.  It's the tie in to ME2, which JMA22TB and others are theorizing to.  I know, people having weird crazy ideas from trying to understand a poorly told plot.  Who'd a thunk?

[HighMoon]

The destruction of Sovereign (the reapers key/shortcut to entering the milkyway) and the geth is what provoked the Reapers to attack humanity indirectly through the Collectors, their slaves. Once they were brought down, they were left with no other choice than to confront them (humanity, as well as all other species) face to face.