125 réponses à ce sujet

[Onyx Jaguar]

Golden-Rose wrote...

The destruction of Sovereign (the reapers key/shortcut to entering the milkyway) and the geth is what provoked the Reapers to attack humanity indirectly through the Collectors, their slaves. Once they were brought down, they were left with no other choice than to confront them (humanity, as well as all other species) face to face.

This is the greatest post I have ever read on these forums.  Finally someone says what i think with it actually making sense.

[smudboy]

Golden-Rose wrote...

The destruction of Sovereign (the reapers key/shortcut to entering the milkyway) and the geth is what provoked the Reapers to attack humanity indirectly through the Collectors, their slaves. Once they were brought down, they were left with no other choice than to confront them (humanity, as well as all other species) face to face.

So did they want to kill them or collect them?  We got their attention, and we just happen to be genetically viable for Reaper parts.  "Face to face", literally means "we're going to start making a Reaper out of blended humans?"  Why?  Harbinger also seems to want to kill or collect Shepard, but why?

If the goal was to enact the cycle of destruction, there are/were better ways to do so, then slowly and (most definitely failing) at building a human Reaper in the way they were going about it.  Considering how much time, money and resources they have, they could've had a small armada in two years, let alone 50k.  This reeks of an alternate motive, and looks like they're simply teasing humans to see what they'll do next.  (Or Harbinger's just batsh*t crazy.)

The idea that now, after two failed attempts (one legitimate, the other we have no idea), they're all going to somehow travel to the Milky Way?  Doesn't that mean there's a second Citadel/mass relay somewhere else?  If so, why didn't they simply use that?  Why wait?

[this isnt my name]

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Dude no offense but if I could I'd punch you through my computer screen, I just like hitting walls.

Stupid thing to say before you say you want to hit someone. I assume that was directed at me, so I will be clear, I feel the same way. But I say go for it, if you break your computer trying you wont be on here for a while, if you punch hard enough it might happen, do it.
But seriously for someone who says they dont give a damn you sure do make annoying replies.

No it wasn't directed at you, but for someone whose so convinced you're making good arguments here you sure are pretty damn stupid.

There is a plothole involving the Collectors. But it has everything to do with the stupid story centered around recruiting the most awesome rockstars in the galaxy to carry out a suicide mission to take out a mostly unknown enemy that they have no idea how to actually defeat, and nothing to do with the Collectors not helping Sovereign attack the Citadel.

This is like saying there is a plot hole in Star Wars because Yoda was hiding out on Dagobah and was never seen or heard of at all in the original Star Wars or because the Empire did not have their entire fleet stationed around the Death Star.

Honestly you could apply the same exact flimsy argument to almost every single trilogy ever made. Especially in the Sci-Fi or Fantasy genre. There's always some new sh*t you never heard about or saw in the first part, the bar is raised, new enemies and allies are introduced. Not a plot hole!

It actually was explained pretty clearly that Sovereign was acting out of desperation and impatience when he attacked the Citadel having spent millenia trying to build alliances in order to restore the cycle of extinction again. Hell that was pretty well understood in the first game actually.

Anyways obviously whether or not the Collectors were there to help Sovereign would have failed. That's pretty clear. They wouldn't make a video game where you actually can't beat it. Crazy I know.

im prety sure ego draconis has an ending where you loose also fallout 3 (until broken steel ****ed everything up), sure not fun for a videogame but its a game they could easily have the galaxy wiped out in ME3 and just make it have spin offs or whatever. ME is flexible, the reapers harvest all life maybe then at the end you find out it was a beacon focused on shep, and now its up to another race to ry and break the cycle, point is you wont like it but they can do it.

[JMA22TB]

adam_grif wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

That's why I think it has to be a trap or a diversion - there was so much they could do to eliminate Shepard and defend the base that they didn't. It's like they were escorting you to destroy the Collectors, not protecting them.

Their first plan was a trap that sprung and Shepard caught mid-spring, their second plan has to be another trap it's too silly not to be.

I'd really like it to be a trap, but I'm struggling to think of what they achieved by having you blow up more of their stuff and foil more of their plans. The relatively light defenses can be handwaved as "they didn't think anything could get through the O4 relay" (of course, they did have defenses so this is a bid dodgy),  but there is nothing that could concievably be achieved by coaxing them into attacking and destroying the collector base. If they wanted it blown up, they could easily have destroyed it themselves. If they were aiming to kill Shepard, they could have put in markedly stronger defenses, or blown up the station while he was on it. Why would they have bothered filling it with humans and starting the construction of the Human Reaper? Is this not a monumental waste of time, effort and resources? Simply bombing human colonies would have been more than sufficient if their aim was simply to attract attention and initiate a counter-attack through the O4 relay. Their plan would thus hinge on people finding the Derilict Reaper and getting the IFF from it, which is a highly questionable assumption to make.

The way I see it is Harbinger, shortly after Liara ends up getting Shepard out of his grasp when attempting to get him from the Shadow Broker, decides that since Shepard has a chance of coming back and the Reapers need a way into the galaxy, an elaborate plan to keep Shepard occupied would be necessary to prevent the more important relay construction from being foiled. As far as why they abduct the colonists - what better way to raise the enemy's eyebrow and make them continue to pursue? The human Reaper construction - at least based off of EDI's speculation - would take so many more people to complete, so I think it's a dual-pronged fringe prospect of working and a mocking gesture by the Reapers - showing Shepard his people's fate once they return and possibly being able to deploy a new Reaper as humanity is harvested over time without being caught, which was working under Shepard showed up.

Sure, they lose their observational force, some resources, and a damn good defense in the Omega 4 Relay, but once they get back into the galaxy, all those issues are remedied relatively quickly. Bombing colonies would have blown their cover, and I'm not convinced at all that the Reapers would not be aware of one of their own after 37 millioin years. They supposedly go to each star system to thoroughly erase the previous civilization, so how would they not run into it? Especially when the Reaper in question was attacked by the civilization it wiped out, which I would doubt that one ship alone would be responsible for the world it attacks.

[JMA22TB]

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Dude no offense but if I could I'd punch you through my computer screen, I just like hitting walls.

That's pretty weak. This is an internet forum.

Bring something good to the discussion or get out.

I did and it pretty much destroyed your whole argument except that you don't seem to understand that. Hence you're like hitting a wall.

It's pretty hilarious that you're basing these things off the simple fact that the game isn't difficult combat wise.

Have fun with your baseless speculation bro.

The gameplay has absolutely nothing to do with this theory - did you read the original post at all? What did you destroy besides any credibility you have? 

I think your point was that the story is based on a flimsy antagonist and recruiting a bunch of rockstars to beat this flimsy antagonist's plan without knowing what the hell's going on. I agree. But instead of throwing my hands up in the air and throwing a fit about how the story isn't the way I want it to be, I'm hoping for something great to happen and theorizing that you're manipulated into fighting a silly proxy war that doesn't matter in the grand scheme, not that you fought a proxy war that was supposed to matter in the grand scheme, but cheapened it.

[JMA22TB]

Golden-Rose wrote...

The destruction of Sovereign (the reapers key/shortcut to entering the milkyway) and the geth is what provoked the Reapers to attack humanity indirectly through the Collectors, their slaves. Once they were brought down, they were left with no other choice than to confront them (humanity, as well as all other species) face to face.

Which I would argue is wholly incompetent when all the Collectors would have to do is transmit a message to the heretic geth - "Nazara and your Gods haven't forsaken you." Boom, welcome to the team, let's kick some organic ass. Harbinger reveals himself to be a Reaper using the Collector shells and they coordinate from there. It's not like the Heretics suddenly stopped believing in the Reapers - Legion had to go out of its way to prevent a massive brainwashing of the geth, which would suggest they're still open to suggestion.

The idea that the Reapers would abandon their geth slaves is silly to me

[smudboy]

JMA22TB wrote...

Golden-Rose wrote...

The destruction of Sovereign (the reapers key/shortcut to entering the milkyway) and the geth is what provoked the Reapers to attack humanity indirectly through the Collectors, their slaves. Once they were brought down, they were left with no other choice than to confront them (humanity, as well as all other species) face to face.

Which I would argue is wholly incompetent when all the Collectors would have to do is transmit a message to the heretic geth - "Nazara and your Gods haven't forsaken you." Boom, welcome to the team, let's kick some organic ass. Harbinger reveals himself to be a Reaper using the Collector shells and they coordinate from there. It's not like the Heretics suddenly stopped believing in the Reapers - Legion had to go out of its way to prevent a massive brainwashing of the geth, which would suggest they're still open to suggestion.

The idea that the Reapers would abandon their geth slaves is silly to me

I agree.  However, it could show us a certain culture of Reapers.  Because they are a nation undivided to themselves, would they all have the same goals as their Reaper buddies?  Perhaps there are factions of Reapers, those that just like bombing organics, and those that like/whose mission is to build more Reapers.  Where Harbinger is sort of like the Reaper nursery dude, regardless of what stage the cycle of destruction our Milky Way galaxy is in, he's just doing his job.

Or batsh*t crazy!

Modifié par smudboy, 18 avril 2010 - 04:33 .

[JMA22TB]

smudboy wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

Golden-Rose wrote...

The destruction of Sovereign (the reapers key/shortcut to entering the milkyway) and the geth is what provoked the Reapers to attack humanity indirectly through the Collectors, their slaves. Once they were brought down, they were left with no other choice than to confront them (humanity, as well as all other species) face to face.

Which I would argue is wholly incompetent when all the Collectors would have to do is transmit a message to the heretic geth - "Nazara and your Gods haven't forsaken you." Boom, welcome to the team, let's kick some organic ass. Harbinger reveals himself to be a Reaper using the Collector shells and they coordinate from there. It's not like the Heretics suddenly stopped believing in the Reapers - Legion had to go out of its way to prevent a massive brainwashing of the geth, which would suggest they're still open to suggestion.

The idea that the Reapers would abandon their geth slaves is silly to me

I agree.  However, it could show us a certain culture of Reapers.  Because they are a nation undivided to themselves, would they all have the same goals as their Reaper buddies?  Perhaps there are factions of Reapers, those that just like bombing organics, and those that like/whose mission is to build more Reapers.  Where Harbinger is sort of like the Reaper nursery dude, regardless of what stage the cycle of destruction our Milky Way galaxy is in, he's just doing his job.

Or batsh*t crazy!

I'm sure, if the theoretical composition of a Reaper being millions of sentient beings slurpied into brain functions and fuel combined with AI programs is what they are, that they would be almost territorial in that capacity. But it would also make sense that their survival is at stake and they need to put their individual agendas aside for the common goal of getting back to the battlefield and wiping the new batch out, fixing their Citadel trap, and replacing the Collectors as a future observational tool.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

JMA22TB wrote...

smudboy wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

Golden-Rose wrote...

The destruction of Sovereign (the reapers key/shortcut to entering the milkyway) and the geth is what provoked the Reapers to attack humanity indirectly through the Collectors, their slaves. Once they were brought down, they were left with no other choice than to confront them (humanity, as well as all other species) face to face.

Which I would argue is wholly incompetent when all the Collectors would have to do is transmit a message to the heretic geth - "Nazara and your Gods haven't forsaken you." Boom, welcome to the team, let's kick some organic ass. Harbinger reveals himself to be a Reaper using the Collector shells and they coordinate from there. It's not like the Heretics suddenly stopped believing in the Reapers - Legion had to go out of its way to prevent a massive brainwashing of the geth, which would suggest they're still open to suggestion.

The idea that the Reapers would abandon their geth slaves is silly to me

I agree.  However, it could show us a certain culture of Reapers.  Because they are a nation undivided to themselves, would they all have the same goals as their Reaper buddies?  Perhaps there are factions of Reapers, those that just like bombing organics, and those that like/whose mission is to build more Reapers.  Where Harbinger is sort of like the Reaper nursery dude, regardless of what stage the cycle of destruction our Milky Way galaxy is in, he's just doing his job.

Or batsh*t crazy!

I'm sure, if the theoretical composition of a Reaper being millions of sentient beings slurpied into brain functions and fuel combined with AI programs is what they are, that they would be almost territorial in that capacity. But it would also make sense that their survival is at stake and they need to put their individual agendas aside for the common goal of getting back to the battlefield and wiping the new batch out, fixing their Citadel trap, and replacing the Collectors as a future observational tool.

I would laugh if the reapers had an council.

"Organics? we have dismissed this claim."  - Reaper Council Member.

Harbringer - "......"

on an more serious note, I thnk the reapers do not share puppets. We know them to be arrogant ***es. Also has anyone considered the possbility that with Soverign's death that Harbringer might have been activated and that Harbringer might have been slumbering?

Secondly, it's not like the geth had been forsaken, they were given an virus to re-write the entire geth population to following the reapers and they were going to carry it out, but we stopped them. From the looks of it, I think the reapers have multiple plans in motion, multiple prongs of attack and defense. We just managed to stop the geth virus attack is all, so we the geth never had a role to play, which I bet would have been to have wide-spread mayhem throughout council space.

Soverign reminded me of blitz tactics. He was impantient since the Rachni almost succeded but failed, so he had to go back into hiding again, and then along came saren and he probably infulienced the geth in an attempt, but instead of getting the entire geth to follow him, he had only 15% or so, so he had to deal with the resources he had.... which wasn't much to be honest. Upon Soverign's death... I am guessing harbringer is activated as an failsafe incae something happens to the vanguard. The Collector's were an token force... not even worth having really, they were very useless to the style that Soverign uses.

Harbringer is now an new player on the field, taking up the role that Soverign failed. Except that he is in the middle of darkspace, so he had some minons of his lying around in the galactic core that were in stasis or whatever. He had even less pieces to play with then Soverign did. So first order of business - setup ambush for sheppard, sheppard is now out of the picture for two years and some odd days.

So he now proceeds with his plans, to re-unite the geth under his banner and gain an army (fighting force), and start building an new reaper with his "resource" gatherers. Heck, if there is an culling, might as well get started. For the reason not to use the Geth herectic forces - they are almost out of resources most likely, and Soverign overplayed them in the Citadel attack, so now everyone knows what the hell is going on with them.

His other plan of humanlity, well, if he played his cards right, kept not being seen, well eventually humanlity would picked off here and there. Everyone else in the galaxy is like "Ha ha. that's what you get for settling in the Termunus systems." Taking advantage of the politics. The dead reaper... I'm not totally sure if that was part of the plan, I doubt it. Perhaps the clouds had hidden the wreakage or something from the reapers, probably will never know.

Omega 4 relay is pretty heavily guarded already considering if you don't get the IFF you end up in some nasty place, so having an few token defenses to deal with someone who somehow managed to get it... yeah I can see it being set up like that. It's not like the collectors are an main fighting force, they are support troops.

Now Harbringer couldn't have forseen Sheppards return from the land of the dead. I am sorry, but I am sure that even sentient machines that probably seen everything would expect humanlity to seemingly pull that out of their ass and be like. "we revive sheppard."

Harbringer now has to kill sheppard... again. Hence the ambushes etc etc.

The geth virus attack would have succeded... if it wasn't for the fact
of legion. Something that I highly doubted
Harbringer took accordence into his plans.

There might be an few other things harbringer was working on as well, but to be honest, he got pretty boned in the begining of the game there with sheppard returning. Pretty much Sheppard was the wreaking ball directly or indirectly to his plans for merely existing.

[ReluctantMind]

I have a couple questions and I apologize for any repetition from earlier posts. First, much of the discussion frames things as "Reaper interest in Shepard". Has there been any indication that there is any current contact between the Reapers and the galaxy? If all the Reapers are out in darkspace and Sovereign was the only one in galaxy then they probably don't have any idea what is going on and are either confused or hitting the galactic snooze button. The current plans could be very ad lib on the part of a few Reaper supporters. After all, as far as we know the Protheans were the only ones to throw a wrench into the cycle of galactic extinction in millions of years. That could breed a lot of complacency. Second, it seems that it is generally assumed that the Reapers function with one will, that they are all working in the same way toward identical goals. Sovereign stated that each Reaper is an independent nation. They may be generally working in the same direction, but when things fall apart as they did with the failure of Sovereign you may well have many different Reapers working in multiple directions with multiple plans. Those plans may not have much interaction or may even get in each other's way. The Collector's may have had nothing to do with Sovereign as they were affiliated with another Reaper or group of Reapers, again assuming that the Reapers even have some way to communicate from dark space, but not return. These events could also represent half-assed contingency plans that no Reaper thought would ever be needed. Omnipotence can breed a lot of complacency (I would imagine). Or I could just be wrong. I'm cool with it either way and none of this diminishes my enjoyment of the game.

[cronshaw8]

ReluctantMind wrote...

 Has there been any indication that there is any current contact between the Reapers and the galaxy?

The Reapers have a yet unidentified communication system that lets them communicate with allies inside the Milky Way. This is how Harbinger, who is in dark space, is able to communicate and control the collectors.

Modifié par cronshaw8, 18 avril 2010 - 09:05 .

[Bucky_McLachlan]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Golden-Rose wrote...

The destruction of Sovereign (the reapers key/shortcut to entering the milkyway) and the geth is what provoked the Reapers to attack humanity indirectly through the Collectors, their slaves. Once they were brought down, they were left with no other choice than to confront them (humanity, as well as all other species) face to face.

This is the greatest post I have ever read on these forums.  Finally someone says what i think with it actually making sense.

Ya and this is also made completely and utterly clear in the game. Don't understand why people are having a hard time understanding this.

The same straw man arguments being made here can be made to almost any story ever made. "Oh they could've done this or this and it would've been better blahblah." Better for who? No matter what the case is they're going to lose. Period. They could have a device that magically teleports every sapient being in the galaxy to a secret Reaper prison. They could have a device that can blow up every planet in the galaxy at once. No matter what the case is THEY'RE GOING TO  LOSE IN THE END.

Sorry if you were let down when you found out the Reapers aren't actually invulnerable all-knowing all-powerful immortal gods.

[Bucky_McLachlan]

smudboy wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...
This is like saying there is a plot hole in Star Wars because Yoda was hiding out on Dagobah and was never seen or heard of at all in the original Star Wars or because the Empire did not have their entire fleet stationed around the Death Star.

Yeah, but Yoda wasn't a million year old super-intelligence machine remote controlling an army.  Who according to the rest of your post, had a desperate friend who tried to enact one of their master plans for all organic life: the cycle of destruction.  What would Harbinger care?  He's not at risk to be killed.  Just support his vanguard buddy to get the rest of his buddies into space.

Dude you're not getting it.

It doesn't matter how old the damn Reapers are, they're not perfect beings. They make mistakes, they can be defeated. They aren't all knowing and all powerful.

Your argument about them helping eachother is plain and simply bad. I agree with a lot of your complaints about the story but this one is just dumb. Ya know why? Because as I've been saying all along here this is a common feature of almost every story ever told. The bad guys don't help eachother out. They don't offer a shoulder to cry on, they don't offer moral support of any kind. They do not have friends. They're often arrogant and overconfident of their abilities. They are often in conflict with their allies and they're usually very selfish and when the boss man is down they'll use this to their own advantage, and for obvious reasons they don't show you their hand before they play their cards and they don't keep all their eggs in one basket.

Seriously dude the arguments being made here are just plain and simply the weakest you can possibly make. They literally apply to almost every story ever told.

When it comes down to it if everything about the enemy was revealed early on and they had no secrets, or they never made mistakes there would be no story to tell.

Is there a massive leap in story logic that Harbinger can communicate with his allies through dark space? Ya there is. But regardless I wouldn't expect him to command his minions to stop whatever they're doing no matter how important it might be and go help Sovereign. I doubt Sovereign would ever ask for help in the first place. It's obvious that they're more than a little arrogant.

Modifié par Bucky_McLachlan, 18 avril 2010 - 11:10 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

About this Bob the Reaper nonsense: I don't think the Reaper that was shot down from Klendagon was the vanguard of his cycle. For a race to build a giant mass accelerator cannon that basically scarred (if not killed) a planet, they would have to be pretty desperate. You do not simply shoot down any space-squid that happens to fly by a solar system or so away (could've been much closer, but still). These people knew what they were up against, were probably in the middle of the Reaper invasion (post-Citadel activation) and might have actually advanced beyond what the Reapers thought possible in a cycle (for them to build a weapon this powerful).

cronshaw8 wrote...

ReluctantMind wrote...

 Has there been any indication that there is any current contact between the Reapers and the galaxy?

The Reapers have a yet unidentified communication system that lets them communicate with allies inside the Milky Way. This is how Harbinger, who is in dark space, is able to communicate and control the collectors.

More likely than not the same quantum entanglement thingy Shep and Mr. Illusive use.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 18 avril 2010 - 11:25 .

[smudboy]

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...
Dude you're not getting it.

It doesn't matter how old the damn Reapers are, they're not perfect beings. They make mistakes, they can be defeated. They aren't all knowing and all powerful.

Your argument about them helping eachother is plain and simply bad. I agree with a lot of your complaints about the story but this one is just dumb. Ya know why? Because as I've been saying all along here this is a common feature of almost every story ever told. The bad guys don't help eachother out. They don't offer a shoulder to cry on, they don't offer moral support of any kind. They do not have friends. They're often arrogant and overconfident of their abilities. They are often in conflict with their allies and they're usually very selfish and when the boss man is down they'll use this to their own advantage, and for obvious reasons they don't show you their hand before they play their cards and they don't keep all their eggs in one basket.

Seriously dude the arguments being made here are just plain and simply the weakest you can possibly make. They literally apply to almost every story ever told.

When it comes down to it if everything about the enemy was revealed early on and they had no secrets, or they never made mistakes there would be no story to tell.

Is there a massive leap in story logic that Harbinger can communicate with his allies through dark space? Ya there is. But regardless I wouldn't expect him to command his minions to stop whatever they're doing no matter how important it might be and go help Sovereign. I doubt Sovereign would ever ask for help in the first place. It's obvious that they're more than a little arrogant.

They're obviously not perfect, and do indeed have god complexes.

But we need to know what's going on with them.  It does not matter how, in what situation, in whatever way.  We need to know why Harbinger is doing what they're doing.  We don't even have a Saren character (like the Collector General) to tell us what's going on.  It needs to connect to ME1, somehow.  And sorry if I couldn't catch it, no matter how clear it was to you, and how emotional you get with responding.  I still don't see why Harbinger would care; if in fact they wouldn't help Sovereign, why act now?  Why was there no mention of Collectors in Mass Effect 1?  What's his interest in Shepard?  Sure, so he was one of the main players who helped kill his buddy (whom he doesn't care about) and prevented the early cycle of destruction.  So?  He's taunting Shepard like a school yard bully about random crap.  Why can't we get a scene where we have a conversation/get some intel?

Give me an antagonist whose motives are clear.  Especially if they're some mysterious alien AI god who fights by proxy that's trying to build a human Reaper whose methods are completely stupid.  And oh yeah, this is a sequel, somehow.

The destruction of Sovereign (the reapers key/shortcut to entering the
milkyway) and the geth is what provoked the Reapers to attack humanity
indirectly through the Collectors, their slaves.

Says who?  I thought Harbinger didn't give a crap.

Once they were brought
down, they were left with no other choice than to confront them
(humanity, as well as all other species) face to face.

Why?  We know we got their attention, but why act in this fashion?  If I can't identify with an alien hive mind whose thoughts are so beyond my mortal reasoning, I need something/someone to make sense of it all.  You telling me "because they're bad and don't help each other/every story does this" doesn't mean anything.  If it's a story where we're not supposed to learn about an unknown mysterious enemy and their unknown motives which contradict his other god-like "friend" because "evil guys don't help each other" (because every story is like this), then it better darned well be about the protagonist and their struggles: but Shepard doesn't have any depth past a wooden door.  So I don't care about my protagonist, don't know wtf is up with my antagonist, the side characters have virtually nothing to do with the plot, little to no motivations toward it.  So wtf is going on here?

So my mind starts trying to figure out connections between things.  And the basic things pop up.  And you're ****ing because a bunch of people are asking questions?

If you're so smart, then tells us.  Seriously, you say my argument's weak?  Then fix it.  And if it's not worth your time, don't bother responding in the first place.  Some people actually like asking these questions.

[Bucky_McLachlan]

smudboy wrote...
But we need to know what's going on with them.  It does not matter how, in what situation, in whatever way.  We need to know why Harbinger is doing what they're doing.

Uh we do. It was totally explained in the first game...reapers trapped in dark space...need a way to fix that problem, they typically leave behind a vanguard to pathe the way for them and their guy got killed. So now they're trying some other sh*t.

We don't even have a Saren character (like the Collector General) to tell us what's going on.

ya sure, but this has nothing to do with some supposed plot hole that exists (just want to be clear this plot hole is nonexistant) because the Collectors exist in ME2 and aren't mentioned or seen at all in ME1. That plothole does not exist. Absolutely there's a problem with not having a real antagonist that exists in the same space as our protaganist. It's not a matter of getting information it's a matter of there being no real conflict at all and therefore no story.

It needs to connect to ME1, somehow.  And sorry if I couldn't catch it, no matter how clear it was to you, and how emotional you get with responding.  I still don't see why Harbinger would care; if in fact they wouldn't help Sovereign, why act now?

Ya this was explained already,  and the answers are really obvious, if you played the first game this really does not even need to be discussed. But if you need a recap here you go: The Reapers are stuck in dark space they need a way back. Shepard killed the one thing that was there sure bet to get back now they're trying something else.

Why was there no mention of Collectors in Mass Effect 1?

Why would there be? Why was there no mention of Yoda in the original Star Wars? Why were we never told that Leia was Luke's sister before Return of the Jedi, why weren't we told that the Empire tended to hire Bounty Hunters to track people like Han Solo to Cloud City? I could go on man. See what I'm saying though? You're making a bad argument here, there cannot be a story if everything is revealed right at the beginning and there is never anything wrong with the sheer fact that something *gasp* exists that you did not previously know about.

Give me an antagonist whose motives are clear.  Especially if they're some mysterious alien AI god who fights by proxy that's trying to build a human Reaper whose methods are completely stupid.  And oh yeah, this is a sequel, somehow.

It certainly was a very poor move to put all of the story dealing with Shepard's death and retrieving his corpse into a comic book, but for the most part Harbinger's motives are clear. Only issue is that he's trapped in Dark Space thousands of miles away which removes the possibility of there being any conflict or tension between him and Shepard. It's like Professor Claw in Inspector Gadget, you never even see the guy. He's always in some secret base somewhere hiding.

Says who?  I thought Harbinger didn't give a crap.

Obviously he cares about not being stuck out in dark space for eternity.

Modifié par Bucky_McLachlan, 19 avril 2010 - 06:27 .

[smudboy]

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...
Uh we do. It was totally explained in the first game...reapers trapped in dark space...need a way to fix that problem, they typically leave behind a vanguard to pathe the way for them and their guy got killed. So now they're trying some other sh*t.

Yes we get the Vanguard and the dark space bit.  The issue is why is Harbinger doing what it's doing now, when it's pretty obvious it will fail.  From what we learned about Sovereign's opinions of organics, it doesn't seem likely they'd have a 50k year old organic slave army just sleeping.

ya sure, but this has nothing to do with some supposed plot hole that exists (just want to be clear this plot hole is nonexistant) because the Collectors exist in ME2 and aren't mentioned or seen at all in ME1. That plothole does not exist. Absolutely there's a problem with not having a real antagonist that exists in the same space as our protaganist. It's not a matter of getting information it's a matter of there being no real conflict at all and therefore no story.

It's clearly an issue with continuity.  Ditto with The Illusive Man.  If you're going to have a sequel, there needs to be things that connect.  If you're going to invent a new opposing force, that has to be explained within the context of whatever just happened before it.  When Harbinger says "your species has the attention of those infinitely your greater", does that mean because of the events of ME2 or ME1?  If Harbinger doesn't care about Sovereign, then it wouldn't be about ME1.
How is it a matter of there being no real conflict?  Do you mean the Collector threat in general, or the conflict between Harbinger and Shepard?

Ya this was explained already,  and the answers are really obvious, if you played the first game this really does not even need to be discussed. But if you need a recap here you go: The Reapers are stuck in dark space they need a way back. Shepard killed the one thing that was there sure bet to get back now they're trying something else.

Yes, you mentioned this before.  Why would they send one as a vanguard, then one remotely?  How many more stupid backup remote-plans do they have?  This does not seem like the actions of a super-intelligent race of AI.  As JMA22TB states, it could very well be a diversion and is just messing with us, or Harbinger is insane.

Why would there be? Why was there no mention of Yoda in the original Star Wars? Why were we never told that Leia was Luke's sister before Return of the Jedi, why weren't we told that the Empire tended to hire Bounty Hunters to track people like Han Solo to Cloud City? I could go on man. See what I'm saying though? You're making a bad argument here, there cannot be a story if everything is revealed right at the beginning and there is never anything wrong with the sheer fact that something *gasp* exists that you did not previously know about.

Because it's a trilogy?  These kinds of things need to lead and foreshadow into the other.

This isn't simply the existence of an entire character.  This isn't simply the existence of an additional army battalion and it's general from the main opposing force.  This is an entirely different opposing force from an entirely different general who is acting completely different from what we know of our enemy.  Our enemy, that gets around in space ships and has armies.  So now we have two examples of our enemy, both with different views on organics, one seeminly intelligent and self-emphazied superiority and one who's playing with dolls.  Both apparently apathetic to each other's condition.

We don't need "everything" being revealed in ME1.  But we need breadcrumbs.  We need to have the slight nuance of a train of logic: to connect the dots.  This stuff should've been figured out to make sense, even if it's only a fraction of the plot.  Like in a detective fiction novel.  However, this isn't a murder mystery: we're dealing with independent alien-million-year-old AI who have some plan.  Of course our brains are going to start thinking up patterns of wtf is going on, and pointing out inconsistencies.

It certainly was a very poor move to put all of the story dealing with Shepard's death and retrieving his corpse into a comic book, but for the most part Harbinger's motives are clear. Only issue is that he's trapped in Dark Space thousands of miles away which removes the possibility of there being any conflict or tension between him and Shepard. It's like Professor Claw in Inspector Gadget, you never even see the guy. He's always in some secret base somewhere hiding.

Why is Harbinger building a human Reaper?  Why does he want/not want to kill/capture Shepard?  Why didn't he blow up the Normandy and instead take a few dozen humans?  What was he doing for 50k years? etc.  Again, a simple conversation would've been fine: that would've provided clear, exact subterfuge, if that was the case.  If there's a mystery, the narrative must go "wtf is going on".  It was okay in ME1 with Vigil stating "what does it matter?", since the entire galaxy was about to get destroyed.  Now, it's time to flesh out what the motives are of our main opposing force and antagonist, clearly.  Not leave us going "wtf was the point of all this?"  Eventually, even when the narrative states "well I have no idea", that question must be answered.  (This is not some existential experience sci-fi a la Solaris.)

Obviously he cares about not being stuck out in dark space for eternity.

Obviously??  You don't know this.  He's just some disembodied voice spouting one liners about genetics.

Modifié par smudboy, 19 avril 2010 - 02:05 .

[JMA22TB]

Bucky, we get it that the Reapers are not perfect - if they were Shepard and the rest of civilization would have been dead in ME because they would have had the Collectors attack the Normandy while they were pursuing Saren. Shiala stated that Saren knew Shepard was following him, so all Sovereign would have to do is tell Harbinger to get the Collectors and wipe them out. The point of everything I've said and smudboy has said isn't to somehow transform the story into something different or better.

It's to make sense of ME2 and it's place in the series. I argue that the events are too contrived and silly to be anything other than a distraction or a diversion, within the established context that the Reapers are the architects of galactic society and devised a systematic genocide that's backup plan worked right up until the 11th hour and 59th minute in ME.

Smudboy argues the Reapers are insane, and their motives are incomprehensible based on organic intellect, which if you really try to break down the Collectors as a serious endeavor that was supposed to work, it certainly fits that bill.

If you can account for ALL the details, not just the ones that look right, and connect ME2 to ME cohesively I'll applaud you for being a genius, because I'm not seeing it.

[prizm123]

epoch_ wrote...

Ecael wrote...


Bob the Reaper should have found a better hiding place.

I just got a really funny image of this giant reaper hiding behind a tiny moon or something.

that's no moon.....

[MEUTRIERE]

JMA22TB wrote...

Golden-Rose wrote...

The destruction of Sovereign (the reapers key/shortcut to entering the milkyway) and the geth is what provoked the Reapers to attack humanity indirectly through the Collectors, their slaves. Once they were brought down, they were left with no other choice than to confront them (humanity, as well as all other species) face to face.

Which I would argue is wholly incompetent when all the Collectors would have to do is transmit a message to the heretic geth - "Nazara and your Gods haven't forsaken you." Boom, welcome to the team, let's kick some organic ass. Harbinger reveals himself to be a Reaper using the Collector shells and they coordinate from there. It's not like the Heretics suddenly stopped believing in the Reapers - Legion had to go out of its way to prevent a massive brainwashing of the geth, which would suggest they're still open to suggestion.

The idea that the Reapers would abandon their geth slaves is silly to me

Remember, the geth failed them.  The Reapers (or, Sovereign) was insulted by the geth's worship, and when they couldn't bring down Shepard, they were of no further use to the Reapers.



As far as the Collector's defenses (and I don't know if it's been debunked; I haven't read through every post), remember that no ship was supposed to have the IFF installed and even with it installed, recall how many crashed ships were scattered around the base.  I mean, it's a base on the edge of a black hole, and people/aliens/etc. are scared enough of the unknown lying beyond the Omega-4 Relay.  Only EDI managed to detect the exact position of the base.  On top of that, the base has security systems, the Oculus, and other 'guards' patrolling.  It's just luck the Normandy crashed in an undetectable location.

Now, on response to the ideas that Harbinger is bat**** crazy, or the Reapers are mad at humanity, they don't seem able to really process emotions, to me.  At least from my point of view, the Reapers are apathetic nations of hardware; they don't seem to act on emotion, but instead 'programming'.  I think they want humanity destroyed in order to continue their process of whatever cycle they do when they wipe out all life.

Also, I wonder why the Reapers need the Citadel relay at all.  I understand that it's a shortcut, but one would think that after however many years the signal was delayed, the Reapers would just have moseyed on over to the Milky Way themselves.  I mean, from the end, it looks like it doesn't take them too long at all.



Yeah, that's all I've gotten so far.  Still, your theories are interesting nonetheless. 

[smudboy]

JMA22TB wrote...
Smudboy argues the Reapers are insane, and their motives are incomprehensible based on organic intellect, which if you really try to break down the Collectors as a serious endeavor that was supposed to work, it certainly fits that bill.

To be accurate, I'm guessing Harbinger is insane.

[Bucky_McLachlan]

smudboy wrote...

Obviously he cares about not being stuck out in dark space for eternity.

Obviously??  You don't know this.  He's just some disembodied voice spouting one liners about genetics.

Ya know what, this topic should just stay dead because there's nothing useful coming out of this conversation at all... but it was established as clear as day in the first game that the Reapers are trying to get back from Dark Space. I mean you really had to like go out of your way and not pay the slightest bit of attention during the first game to not understand that. That's the whole plot of the trilogy in a nut shell. Reapers trying to get back, Shepard's gotta stop them. How did you just manage to miss that?

Really I don't understand how you could not understand this.

Modifié par Bucky_McLachlan, 24 avril 2010 - 05:30 .

[RT0wn]

The thread was dead until you necroposted.

Reapers gonna reap.