185 réponses à ce sujet

[LadyDamodred]

thegreateski wrote...

Eh. Post what you like . . . I'll just say one thing however.

This is the internet. You are entitled to be rude, insulting, and vulgar.

Oh, you have *no* idea.  The things that have crossed this keyboard and the intertubes from my fansubbing group are...staggering.  XD

elemme wrote...

hit me with your bluntness sister, but rest assured that half the guys are laughing their ass off and the other half are thinking, "how does boy sleep with girl twice"

Basically, I think that in the course of 80 hours of play, you completely failed the role-play aspect of it.  Like, I don't know how you spent that long with Morrigan and were genuinely surprised at what happened.  Or with other characters, like Alistair.  Given everything you have said, it's like you approached this as purely a hack and slash game, concerned solely with fighting/mechanics, and completely missed the RP aspect, both as a PC and for the companions.

As for allowing a branch where your characters can die... Yes.  That should absolutely be an option.  Most people want "happy" endings for their characters, but there's something wonderful about being able to be that sacrifice.  And Bioware, as shown with Awakening, will provide you with an avenue for continued play should you choose that route.  That being said, the game has high replay value.  Why wouldn't you try a different character with different choices?

Also, my first play through was with a HNF Warrior.  I had no compelling reason to put Morrigan in my party, as she did not fit with the others.  So I played without a mage for a good chunk of the game.  I also ditched Leliana's ass for Zevran when I could.  So there is no reason for you to feel compelled to put a companion in your party and should not feel compelled to bring characters you do not want.  The game is flexible enough to allow that.

[SirOccam]

This is absurd. Absurd!

So your complaints basically boil down to NPCs acting in ways you don't expect?

Needing a mage: big deal, it's pretty standard fare for RPGs to need warrior/mage/scout in some form or another. You can pick up Wynne too, and be fair to Morrigan...she tries her damndest to make you not like her. You chose her well after you knew what she was like, and she makes it clear she wants it to end (that she lacks the resolve to MAKE it end is beside the point).

The Dark Ritual: your summation is not only a simplification (obviously it was meant to be such), but a gross OVERsimplification. She did not say she had a deal and then just demand a yes or no answer. You did not make a blind choice. She clearly explains what it is she wants and what will result from it. That you chose to turn her down is your own choice and her actions after that, while far from optimal, are at least understandable. She clearly said (and you already knew from Riordan having told you) that whoever kills the Archdemon will die, unless you do this deal. And you still said no.

Now a rational person will think "gee, someone's gotta die. I don't wanna die, so I'd better bring along another Warden!" You, on the other hand, decided to leave Loghain at the gates of Denerim. Correct me if I'm wrong, but before you choose your last group, they even mention that you should "of course" take Loghain. I mean it doesn't take a genius to make that connection.

So you turned down the only deal that could save your life, and you left the only people who could take the death blow for you out of the fight. And then you come complain about dying at the end? Come on man.

Let's see, what's left? Oh yes, Alistair. Yes I was very upset that he chose to leave the group after I spared Loghain too. "But...I thought we were BFFs!" But let's face it...he spent the entire game pissing and moaning about how much he hates Loghain. You didn't think he might disapprove of you sparing his life?

But again, all of this seems to boil down to people acting in unexpected ways. Well I hate to break it to you, but that's the heart of this game, and RPGs in general I'd argue. This isn't Space Invaders, where everyone's going to move in a clearly defined line for you. NPCs, both friend and foe, have their own personalities, their own likes and dislikes, and they reserve the right to flip out about stuff. If this upsets you so much, that you can't just force everyone to do exactly what you want them to do, then I must suggest that perhaps this just isn't the right game (or genre for that matter) for you.

I suggest Space Invaders.

Modifié par SirOccam, 17 avril 2010 - 02:58 .

[Caldarin V]

elemme wrote...

Ok, With a good meal and bloody mary behind me and a cool Pilsner Urquell in hand I once more endevor to enter this war of words.

If you envision DAO followed by DAA followed by DA2 as complex decision tree. I am complaining that my trip through the tree is flawed in that it can end in DAO. I realize that my decisions cause my story but I also realize all the branches in the story are planned. The question is, Is my set of decisions completely out of the norm or is it a reasonably predictable set of decisions that lead to crappy ending thus my dissatisfaction.

If I am building a game DOA followed by DAA followed by DA2 I do not want to truncate branches until the 3rd or final game. I believe it is a reasonable expectation that a player whose game is ended prematurely would be dissatisfied and reluctant to continue.

As for my personal set of decisions it obviously starts at the very beginning.
Human, Noble, Male, Warrior. Boom, I submit little do I know it but that I am half screwed right there. Why you ask. Since I have no combat magic I need a mage. You may say I don’t need a mage but I submit that the largest branch of my young tree is collect a mage. Introduce Morrigan, Boy meets Girl.

Before my young tree gets much larger introduce Lieanna (I cant even remember how to spell her name so you can tell what kind of impression she makes) Lets just call her lockpick because that is what she is really there for. She is the competition for our raven haired beauty Morrigan but since I always need a mage and I only sometimes need a lock pick too bad for poor lock pick she just does not have a chance.

Once again the major branch of the tree is Morrigan.

Over the next 76 hours Boy kisses Girl, Boy sleeps with Girl, Boy kisses Girl, Boy sleeps with Girl again, Girl keeps saying “we should not do this” but boy can tell she likes it  Girls even tells Boy to keep his grubby hands off lock pick just in case there is any doubt.

Enter hour 76 dummmm dum dummmmm dum Girl loses her freaking mind, we quietly gaze upon the camp.
Boy, want to come to my tent
Girl, no
Boy, whats wrong
Girl, I want you, I need you, but this is wrong, right? Do you want to end this?
Boy, No, I do not want to end this
Girl, You selfish bastard
Boy, WTF, you crazy witch
Girl, I am only crazy because you make me so.
Boy smiles, He knows girl loves him but he forgot about the crazy and hot interaction table.

Next night, I repeat next night, once again for effect next night.
Boy sees girl in his room, Boys first thought, girl came to my tent.
Girl hello stranger, I have a deal for you.
Boy What?
Girl yes/no
Boy What?
Girl yes/no
Boy What?
Boy No?
Wolf
Boy WTF, kill me already
That ladies and gentlemen is why I wrote to BioWare and Why defend myself before you.
QED, Summa ****** laude and avera derchi.
And it makes a hell of lot more sense than the dark ritual dialog

In response to your first point- who's to say you're keeping your warden beyond this game and awakening, and the Orlesian is a perfectly plausible character to into Awakening with.

Why would you want to continue using your current character? The world would need to be filled with level 25 beings to keep up with them; it's unrealistic... plus, by the end of awakening, you have abilities with properties like "All normal creatures in area DIE, now, kerpoof, blood bath"
it's unbalanced...
I mean, I think the next event that occurs is going to be forty, fifty years in the future, with the "cannonical ending" (whatever that ends up being- I'm pretty sure Alistair King, Anora queen, Warden lives via dark ritual) being what the world is based off of

I had fun with the story in 1, and I love the idea of my character sacrificing themselves for the good of the realm (also fun- telling Loghain to redeem himself the hard way). I think your character being dead makes it more compelling; everyone's mortal, even you, the allmight PC protected for so long by "THE PLOT"

[LadyDamodred]

If Anora as queen is canonical ending, I will be be most displeased. >.> Just saying.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 17 avril 2010 - 03:13 .

[Caldarin V]

that's my guess, based on what happens when you make an orlesian warden- but I'm 99.99999% sure that cannonical is going to be dark ritual

[LadyDamodred]

When you make an orlesian warden, Anora is queen? This I had not noticed...



And yes, I am pretty sure DR will be canonical. I'm hoping they might let you choose who ruled if you get to start fresh. It would be relatively easy to implement.

[Bryy_Miller]

Wait.
So this guy wrote an e-mail to BioWare.
Stating he is not happy with their product.
Because it did't do what he wanted.

"Dear Cambpell,
I feel that your Tomato Soup is inadequate. Here is my mother's recipe. Use that instead. Also, I want your new soup to allow me to fart rainbows"

elemme wrote...

 If there are enough people like me then I get what I want

I love how you use the justification of "other people" in order to further your own personal grudge.

[elemme]

you people are hopeless because what I wrote actually made some kind of sense to you. I am not trying to be mean it is just really funny.



Yes I know I can play through again, Yes I know I fix the ending.



I did role play the whole game. I lived by the Wardens motto "victory at any cost" not any cost like I can suck the life out of elves for my benefit or forge golems out of souls cost. But the cost nana Wynne hits you with every time you talk to her. The Wardens stand between the people and the darkness at any cost to themselves. Loghain lives because it is good for the people to have their hero back and heal the split in the royal factions plus maybe fate kills him anyway. I hate him but I still spared him. When you dont select him he talks to you and you get to respond "you dont get off that easy" My warden is all warden all the time no compromises and he pays for it. All my choices are easy because they are never juxaposed to what he really wants, Morrigan. The dark ritual dialogue is so weird because I never know if I am talking to Flemeth or Morrigan. Better death than being wrong.



All that being said dont expect me to enjoy your games when I am put in that position.



I will lurk the Morrigan fanboy threads and if Warden/Morrigan romance will continue I will do the magic dance to once again pursue her but until then....





I will take cruising the universe with my BFG sniper rifle dreaming of my blue tenacled girl anyday of the week.

[krasnoarmeets]

Sounds to me like somebody needs to call this guy a waambulance

Modifié par krasnoarmeets, 17 avril 2010 - 03:31 .

[Caldarin V]

he's already got the world's tiniest violin serenading him

[Thor Rand Al]

Where is this Flemeth/Morrigan as 1 thing coming from. They are not the same people. Look at the way each one act's, talks, responds to other's. No where in the game does it even hint or suggest that they are 1 and the same.

Yes Flemeth can take over Morrigan's body and when she does this she pushes Morrigan soul, spirit, manner's and actions, anything that is Morrigan out and Flemeths souls etc takes over. No where in the game does Morrigan's action's change. She's still the same disagreeable person, lol as from the beginning to the end. But isn't that why Morrigan sends you off to weaken Flemeth, (the real reason is the book) because it will make it harder and longer for Flemeth to take over Morrigan's body?





How about this.

I have a question for the Devs if they would answer please. Is Flemeth Morrigan?

I don't know if they'll answer because it's funner to speculate but it's worth a try.

[inuksuit]

As others have noted, if you had made different choices (yes, to a baby with Morrigan) you would have survived. However Morrigan made it clear that she wants a life of her own and that she would leave immediately after the battle.



(I was rather puzzled about a pregnant woman engaging in such a vigorous battle...especially because she died... but who am I to question the mysterious ways of the Maker? I wasn't even convinced that Morrigan could be impregnated so quickly.... but I digress.)



What puzzles me most is that you compare the relationships in DA:O to those in ME and ME2 in such a way that you denigrate the first and praise the latter. What actually happens in ME2 is that you are allowed ONE romantic evening - period! That's it; years and years of space flight with nothing but platonic relationships. And you have to walk on eggs in high-maintenance relationships before you even get that singular opportunity. There's no "Pearl" in ME2 where you can just go and let go. What an uptight world to live in!



I felt relieved to dwell in DA:O -- (which, like Fable 2, allows the characters to get unbuttoned once in a while), I have heard that in "Awakening" there are no romantic possibilities (which seems a backward step into the insular environment of ME2), I hope, for the future, that Bioware will provide a dimension for relationships within their games, because no game developer does it better... as DA:O proves.

[Thor Rand Al]

inuksuit wrote...

As others have noted, if you had made different choices (yes, to a baby with Morrigan) you would have survived. However Morrigan made it clear that she wants a life of her own and that she would leave immediately after the battle.

(I was rather puzzled about a pregnant woman engaging in such a vigorous battle...especially because she died... but who am I to question the mysterious ways of the Maker? I wasn't even convinced that Morrigan could be impregnated so quickly.... but I digress.)

What puzzles me most is that you compare the relationships in DA:O to those in ME and ME2 in such a way that you denigrate the first and praise the latter. What actually happens in ME2 is that you are allowed ONE romantic evening - period! That's it; years and years of space flight with nothing but platonic relationships. And you have to walk on eggs in high-maintenance relationships before you even get that singular opportunity. There's no "Pearl" in ME2 where you can just go and let go. What an uptight world to live in!

I felt relieved to dwell in DA:O -- (which, like Fable 2, allows the characters to get unbuttoned once in a while), I have heard that in "Awakening" there are no romantic possibilities (which seems a backward step into the insular environment of ME2), I hope, for the future, that Bioware will provide a dimension for relationships within their games, because no game developer does it better... as DA:O proves.

You forgot to add you get to use a condom and if you don't you get disturbing STD's lmao

[AlanC9]

elemme wrote...
 My warden is all warden all the time no compromises and he pays for it.

You're right. He does.  If you didn't want to play that kind of character, you shouldn't have played that kind of character.

Anyone else noticed a trend on this board where people just double down on the crazy whenever they're called on it?

[asaiasai]

Dude seriously i have played both ME and ME2 and by far they are pale shadows of what DAO is. DAO is a bummer, there is no happy ending with cake, pony ride and rainbow stickers for all attendees that is why it is so good. In ME2 if you follow the formula, upgrades, loyalty missions, specific team members for tasks, and a timely pass through the omega relay, yea everybody comes home safely. Trite simple ending for a game that for the most part needs a dip into the DAO universe to be taken even remotely serious. DAO leaves the player emotionally spent, hell i am a 43 y/o male that cried like a little **** with a skinned knee my first play through. If you want an i win button, cake, and kitten posters ME2 is probably a better fit. Sometimes like life you do everything right and bad **** still happens, finally a mature game for mature players, who can handle the fact that life is sometimes a ****. Bioware got DAO so right that when i see people complain about it being too dark, too depressing, to deep, i want to slap them with a copy of Hello Kitty's Island Adventure. Keep you ME2 out of my DAO thank you.



Asai

[AlanC9]

Nevertheless, questions should be answered.

elemme wrote...
If you envision DAO followed by DAA followed by DA2 as complex decision tree. I am complaining that my trip through the tree is flawed in that it can end in DAO. I realize that my decisions cause my story but I also realize all the branches in the story are planned. The question is, Is my set of decisions completely out of the norm or is it a reasonably predictable set of decisions that lead to crappy ending thus my dissatisfaction.

If you're asking if a lot of people ended up with dead Wardens, the answer is yes. Plenty of people went that route. I did myself on my first playthrough, though a different route from your character. Mage character, wouldn't do the DR because that's the same sort of arrogant magery that got us into this mess in the first place, and since he saw Anora's dishonorable brand of politics as having nearly destroyed Ferelden when Loghain practiced it, he figured that he'd rather die than put her on the throne. And that's exactly what happened.

The thing is, while you see this kind of ending as "crappy," most other players who got there don't. In fact, one of the most common criticisms of DAA is that it doesn't let you play the Orlesian Warden with a dead DAO character's history.

I believe it is a reasonable expectation that a player whose game is ended prematurely would be dissatisfied and reluctant to continue.

It is not "prematurely." The game is shorter than other choices would have made it, but it's a proper ending. And in any event, you can always branch the character if you think he could have gone the other way with some decision. Obviously, a character who would never, ever either do the DR or let someone else kill the Archdemon is doomed, but what of it?

[MelRedux]

Really OP? Just...wow. I'm afraid to hear what happened when you asked a girl to the prom. Did you write her parents a letter, saying they created a defunct product??



Or when you didn't get that job you interviewed for. "I spent four years in college and made all the right choices, and I didn't get the job I want! WTF??"



Real life never comes out the way we planned. It is filled with wonderful surprises, and devastating disappointments. So is this game. You don't want to buy anymore Bioware games, be my guest. There are thousands of us here that will buy them, and we'll buy them for all the reasons you won't.

[Xandurpein]

LadyDamodred wrote...

If Anora as queen is canonical ending, I will be be most displeased. >.> Just saying.

If they move forward into the future it shouldn't be too hard for them to let you incorporate an end save from DAO or DAOA to get variables from. It shouldn't need more than a codex page or two, or maybe a few odd conversations to let you know it's "your" Fereldan and not some canon. Although I suspect that the default history, if you don't import any setting from a save will be Alistair and Anora married.

[Tinnic]

LadyDamodred wrote...

When you make an orlesian warden, Anora is queen? This I had not noticed...

And yes, I am pretty sure DR will be canonical. I'm hoping they might let you choose who ruled if you get to start fresh. It would be relatively easy to implement.

No, this is not correct. Alistair is King when you make an Orlesian Warden.

[LadyDamodred]

Tinnic wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

When you make an orlesian warden, Anora is queen? This I had not noticed...

And yes, I am pretty sure DR will be canonical. I'm hoping they might let you choose who ruled if you get to start fresh. It would be relatively easy to implement.

No, this is not correct. Alistair is King when you make an Orlesian Warden.

Yeah, I know Alistair showed up and there was no mention of Anora.  I was just confused by what someone else said b/c I hadn't seen it at all in my gane.

[Mirthadrond]

I'm still amazed the op wrote bioware complaining about the the choices their character made.

Seriously - " I made choices, the results of which I didn't like and it's YOUR FAULT!!"



Where is your sense of individual responsibility?



For the record, I felt the Ultimate Sacrifice was the most awesome ending, for my first character. He died, everyone cried. Hell even I was sad, but knew my choices led to his death. Saving the world was worth it.

They even built a statue of me!! Wicked!!



I just don't see how you can hold bioware responsible for your actions/choices?



To blame someone else is just silly. You had options, yet choose to die, and didn't even have the decency to honor your own death.

[Tinnic]

Here's my thing. I don't really understand why having a dead warden at the end of DA:O is making people so upset. It seems clear to me that unlike Shepard or even the Spawn of Bhaal, if we go so far back as Baldur's Gate, the Warden is not suppose to continue. Mass Effect and Baldur's Gate were clearly designed to be multi-part games. Trilogies if you lie. But nothing, nothing about DA:O remotely resembles a "continuing story". You mission in DA:O is to stop the Blight. You do that. That's it. Adventure over.



I mean, Awakening itself should have made it clear that Bioware is putting in the "import" function as an almost after thought. I mean you can import a dead warden into Awakening and the story assumption is "the warden someone survived" with Bioware using the line "if the player doesn't have an issue hand waiving their character alive, neither do we".



Indeed my personal experience is that the Awakening was more enjoyable when I rolled an Orlesian Warden-Commander. The link for me was that my Dalish Rogue made the ultimate sacrifice and with Alistair being king -> no more Feraldan grey warden's left.



I guess what I am getting at is that if you are expecting DA2, DA3, DA:Infinity to be the continuation of the Warden's story, think again! DA:O is clearly stand alone and not designed to be a trilogy like Mass Effect. That's not a bad thing. In fact, it could be a good thing because it frees Bioware writers to continue to write different stories and not be leased to a the Warden.

[Caldarin V]

I agree wholeheartedly, and again, the awakening abilities broke any balance the game had into 1,000,000 little pieces

[elemme]

Hello again everybody, I have another hour to burn so I will try one more time to make my point and then you will never see me again.



I bought Mass Effect , played and ended the game with “wow, best game ever” this lead me to buy Mass Effect 2, played and ended the game with “wow, ever better”. At this point I would have to say that BioWare is pretty happy with our relationship. Now I look at all the other things BioWare has made, see DAO buy it play it and end the game with “wow, I cannot believe I wasted my time and money on that” Obviously I was wrong to look outside of Mass Effect if I wanted to be satisfied with my gaming experience with BioWare. DLC, books, other games, not worth the effort to pursue.



Now what would have changed my whole experience is one more dialog in the dark ritual dialog. If when Morrigan begins to think you will not go through with the ritual she says,



“fine, you can escort me to mountains but no further, will that satisfy you” or



“fine, if you come with me you will be forced to stand apart from the Chantry and other Wardens forever”



Or any other line that does not end the Morrigan/Warden romance. Now if that kind of dialog, which I believe is not outside realm of imagination of what some people might want breaks your game. I will forever stand over here and you will stand over there. Personally I don’t see how that kind of dialog impacts your game at all. I don’t see how it put some onerous production cost on BioWare. I don’t see how it can possibly impact future storylines because once the Warden leaves with Morrigan he is again in BioWares’ hands and can be separated from Morrigan in any number of ways if that is what the grand story arc needs. That kind of Dialog makes all the difference to me and with it my future relationship with BioWare. If Something like that is included, you and I stand together. I buy DLC, books, DAA and continue to look at BioWares other games.



There, I am finished, I will watch the board for the next few days if you want to take a few more shots at me. Then rest assured I will not let the door hit me in the ass or the wallet on the way out.

[Xandurpein]

elemme wrote...

Hello again everybody, I have another hour to burn so I will try one more time to make my point and then you will never see me again.

I bought Mass Effect , played and ended the game with “wow, best game ever” this lead me to buy Mass Effect 2, played and ended the game with “wow, ever better”. At this point I would have to say that BioWare is pretty happy with our relationship. Now I look at all the other things BioWare has made, see DAO buy it play it and end the game with “wow, I cannot believe I wasted my time and money on that” Obviously I was wrong to look outside of Mass Effect if I wanted to be satisfied with my gaming experience with BioWare. DLC, books, other games, not worth the effort to pursue.

Now what would have changed my whole experience is one more dialog in the dark ritual dialog. If when Morrigan begins to think you will not go through with the ritual she says,

“fine, you can escort me to mountains but no further, will that satisfy you” or

“fine, if you come with me you will be forced to stand apart from the Chantry and other Wardens forever”

Or any other line that does not end the Morrigan/Warden romance. Now if that kind of dialog, which I believe is not outside realm of imagination of what some people might want breaks your game. I will forever stand over here and you will stand over there. Personally I don’t see how that kind of dialog impacts your game at all. I don’t see how it put some onerous production cost on BioWare. I don’t see how it can possibly impact future storylines because once the Warden leaves with Morrigan he is again in BioWares’ hands and can be separated from Morrigan in any number of ways if that is what the grand story arc needs. That kind of Dialog makes all the difference to me and with it my future relationship with BioWare. If Something like that is included, you and I stand together. I buy DLC, books, DAA and continue to look at BioWares other games.

There, I am finished, I will watch the board for the next few days if you want to take a few more shots at me. Then rest assured I will not let the door hit me in the ass or the wallet on the way out.

I will respectfully have to disagree. To me Morrigan's romance is perfect the way it is, tragedy, loss, bittersweet goodbye and all. This has nothing to do with breaking plots or not. I love the story just the way it is. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but I think that any hint of a happy-ever-aftering with Morrigan would ruin an experience that I found unique and worthwhile. Romances with rainbows and puppies endings are dime a dozen in the larger scheme of things.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 18 avril 2010 - 09:37 .