432 réponses à ce sujet

[OurSacrifice]

tkaz85 wrote...

So, essentially what you are saying is that you wish you didn't have to micromanage your party members so much, you are dissatisfied with the tactics system, and you don't like the fact that combat in this game is in real-time. Fine. So let me ask you-why are you still here posting in this forum? It seems to me that DA is simply not the kind of game you enjoy. Regardless of whether you feel this game should be more like the BG/ID games, the fact is that it is many ways NOT like those games BY DESIGN. If the "problems" you are describing were actual bugs I could understand your argument, but given that most of the people playing the game are having few or no problems with grasping the combat system indicates that you simply dislike the system personally, which is of course your prerogative. I am sorry that you don't find the game enjoyable, but perhaps your time would be better spent finding a game you DO enjoy instead of trying to get the developers to mold this game to your expectations.

Because the changes I'm hoping will happen can be patched in either by directly changing mechanics, or altering difficulty levels to suit play styles that aren't all about pausing during 100% real time combat with no logical "turns" weaved in.

Those changes would also not impact those that currently enjoy the game.  But, many of the nay-sayers are just the types of people that can't accept the fact that not everyone feels the game is excellent.  Adding additional auto-pause features will not change ONE ASPECT of anyone's game if they currently like everything the way it is.  Improving NPC AI will not impact anyones current enjoyment of the game.  Those are two examples that would improve my enjoyment level of the game, and I'm sure many others, while not hurting anyones enjoyment level of the game at the same time.

[SwampMage]

I really don't understand the argument here. The OP came into this game expecting BGIII (which is understandable considering it being touted as BG's "spiritual successor".) and finds it missing some things he liked from the BG series. Would anyone really begrudge him additional auto pause options (near death, weapon ineffective, trap spotted)? This way the OP wouldn't need to pause every few seconds to check for those conditions manually (lets face it, there is alot going on in each encounter and each encounter is designed to demand the most out of your party hence mana and hp regen after each encounter). I think the previous sentence is exactly what the OP means about too much micro management. Not that he is bothered that he has to give his party commands, but that the lack of auto pause options means he feels he needs to pause more often than necessary.



As for the NPC AI, I haven't gotten to the encounter he is referencing, but I think we can all agree that NPCs running into their own fire trap needs to be addressed. We are talking about a scripted encounter here, not an NPC running into a friendly-fire fireball or something.



I know alot of you (myself included) are really enjoying the combat system and are happy with the challenge. I think much of the flack the OP is getting is because we don't want to see more patches aimed at making this game a walk in the park. I don't think that is the OPs intention, and more auto pause options would be a boon to everyone.



*shrug* Well, that's my take on the thread so far.

[Solica]

I think "micro management" is good. The words are used as if it's a thing of drudgery or tediousness. It's not. It's something that forces you, the player, down to the battle and forces you, yourself, to actively fight through the battle, through all its turns. Blow by blow, just as it should be.

Dungeon Siege is fun enough sometimes, but it's not the same at all.

[Evilsod]

OurSacrifice wrote...

I didn't say I couldn't win - I said the amount of micro-management involved makes it NOT FUN.  I play games to have fun, and DA's combat isn't fun.  It's easier way too easy where you steamroll over enemies, or it requires far more micro-management then I'd like to deal with (normal).  There's no middle ground, and/or not enough auto-pause features that give me the ability to not have to pause every couple of seconds to make sure people are doing what they're supposed to be doing.
.

And there we have it, 14 pages based on your opinion that the game isn't fun, disguised in the form of a huge whine. Why didn't you just say that in the beginning so we could ignore you. The game is about strategy. Positioning, usage of skills, etc. You seem to be under the impression you should have to give 1 command and only 1 command and your team will be in a position to win the fight without your further intervention. Clealy this isn't the game for you.

[lordmangafee]

jeez... op, baldurs gate had tactics (if you ever bothered to use it) options, they were minimal but they were there. point being its nothing new, just featured now with a lot more detail. if you don't like micromanaging, then don't use it, i haven't found it necessary. i find it odd though that you dislike micromanaging, and we are talking about an rpg wherein every detail can be fine tuned and adjusted, it's one of the things that make these games so fun for me. do you autolevel or something? idk.. the game does not suck, and i am finding a lot of the charms from baldurs gate that i loved so much in this game as well (gather party.. the scoundrel voice for female...). oh well, can't please them all.

[SheffSteel]

Auto-Pause:

- Character injured

- Trap spotted

- Talent / Spell used

- Enemy spotted

- Near death

Make them switchable per character, default them to off, and I don't think anyone has grounds to complain (except whoever develops those mods, becasue they aren't going to get paid for their work).

[Maeag]

Ok I shall add mine to the massive list of L2Ps. Maybe you should have looked up more about the game before buying it and maybe just maybe you should stop playing PC games and go to consoles because you obviously have lost whatever knack you might have had in BG. This is BG but with the advantage of modern day technologies and AIs.

[OurSacrifice]

Evilsod wrote...

OurSacrifice wrote...

I didn't say I couldn't win - I said the amount of micro-management involved makes it NOT FUN.  I play games to have fun, and DA's combat isn't fun.  It's easier way too easy where you steamroll over enemies, or it requires far more micro-management then I'd like to deal with (normal).  There's no middle ground, and/or not enough auto-pause features that give me the ability to not have to pause every couple of seconds to make sure people are doing what they're supposed to be doing.
.

And there we have it, 14 pages based on your opinion that the game isn't fun, disguised in the form of a huge whine. Why didn't you just say that in the beginning so we could ignore you. The game is about strategy. Positioning, usage of skills, etc. You seem to be under the impression you should have to give 1 command and only 1 command and your team will be in a position to win the fight without your further intervention. Clealy this isn't the game for you.

Seriously.  Read the thread.

Maeag wrote...

Ok I shall add mine to the massive list of L2Ps. Maybe you should have looked up more about the game before buying it and maybe just maybe you should stop playing PC games and go to consoles because you obviously have lost whatever knack you might have had in BG. This is BG but with the advantage of modern day technologies and AIs.

And the lack of auto-pause options, the lack of balanced combat progression, the lack of a ruleset foundation that makes tactical sense in a RPG setting.  But yeah, other than those, it's BG...

Modifié par OurSacrifice, 10 novembre 2009 - 06:28 .

[artmonster1967]

OurSacrifice wrote...

Evilsod wrote...

And there we have it, 14 pages based on your opinion that the game isn't fun, disguised in the form of a huge whine. Why didn't you just say that in the beginning so we could ignore you. The game is about strategy. Positioning, usage of skills, etc. You seem to be under the impression you should have to give 1 command and only 1 command and your team will be in a position to win the fight without your further intervention. Clealy this isn't the game for you.

Seriously.  Read the thread.

..

nah...no need...he pinned it pretty good there.

[Direbrute]

Could it possibly be everyone's idea of fun is different? How about you say "I don't think it's fun." I happen to love pausing the game and micromanaging battles.

[artmonster1967]

........................................

Modifié par artmonster1967, 10 novembre 2009 - 06:34 .

[artmonster1967]

OurSacrifice wrote...

....... the lack of a ruleset foundation that makes tactical sense in a RPG setting.  .......

ooooooooh !

i'm intrigued now.....

enlighten us "Thee who knows what gamers need"

please...srsly.....

please let us know how your interpretation of a tactical ruleset is so much better than this one.

and proof of the lack of a ruleset foundation altogether in this game....please...I'd love to hear this.

.

Modifié par artmonster1967, 10 novembre 2009 - 06:35 .

[OurSacrifice]

Direbrute wrote...

Could it possibly be everyone's idea of fun is different? How about you say "I don't think it's fun." I happen to love pausing the game and micromanaging battles.

Then the changes I've asked for wouldn't effect you at all.

[Dalereth]

Maeag wrote...

Ok I shall add mine to the massive list of L2Ps. Maybe you should have looked up more about the game before buying it and maybe just maybe you should stop playing PC games and go to consoles because you obviously have lost whatever knack you might have had in BG. This is BG but with the advantage of modern day technologies and AIs.

Sorry to the OP, but I second this. The combat plays very much like BGs did, just modernized. The battles are on average more challenging, but they still require the same type of problem solving skills. A lot of it comes down to figuring out when to use the various skills and spells at your disposal which comes with time and some trial and error.

Sorry if this is harsh, but there's a difference between the combat being terrible and you being terrible at it. The only reason I feel compelled to bother responding to this thread is I wouldn't want the developers to be convinced that they should dumb the game down to cater to everybody. As others have said, find a game that better suits you and spare us.

[OurSacrifice]

Dalereth wrote...
Sorry to the OP, but I second this. The combat plays very much like BGs did, just modernized. The battles are on average more challenging, but they still require the same type of problem solving skills. A lot of it comes down to figuring out when to use the various skills and spells at your disposal which comes with time and some trial and error.

Sorry if this is harsh, but there's a difference between the combat being terrible and you being terrible at it. The only reason I feel compelled to bother responding to this thread is I wouldn't want the developers to be convinced that they should dumb the game down to cater to everybody. As others have said, find a game that better suits you and spare us.

Oddly enough, I never said I was terrible at the game, I did however, say it wasn't fun.  The combat is terrible, plain and simple.  It forces gamers to deal with excessive micro-management, when much of it could be ignored with some very simple and proven auto-pause features that were present in the old IE games.  Why they dropped that is beyond me.  NPC AI scripting is horrible as well, but several people have said it's not a big deal, and that Redcliffe is just a unique scenario - which is comforting to know.

[artmonster1967]

OurSacrifice wrote...
 It forces gamers to deal with excessive micro-management,

when much of it could be ignored with some very simple and proven auto-pause features... .

wait-a-minnit

your saying that the combat  sux because you have to micro manage...but then you say you want more auto pause features...so you can ....???  ...micro-manage more? differently? 0_o ???

weird.

OurSacrifice wrote...
NPC AI scripting is horrible as well, .....

please....... enlighten us on what you actually know about this AI scripting.

and also on the scripting for AI  which will make the game oh so much better.

please back up your statements......generalizations are just poo-spews.......

.

Modifié par artmonster1967, 10 novembre 2009 - 07:03 .

[BlueEyes_Austin]

What an odd post. My overwhelming sense throughout playing so far (on Normal/PC through Redcliffe and the Circle) is that this combat system is darn close to BG/BG2 followed closely by "Thank the Maker the NWN combat system is dead, dead, dead!"



The first few levels were a bit of a strain as I learned the nuances of the system (I'm playing an archer which didn't help either) but once I got Morrigan and learned how to use her properly its been much easier (still got the achievement of the main character surviving through the battle of Ostrogar without dropping). I have yet to adjust the default tactics on any of the characters.



Here's where I see the largest areas of similarity with BG/BG2:

1) Terrain is critical. No AI will help you in selecting chokepoints, etc.

2) By and large, tanks function reasonably well with their existing AI. (Note: I don't WANT AI that moves automatically out of AOE damage because that might well mean losing the important tactical location.)

3) There is no substitute for direct control of mage spells. AI on a mage was a terrible idea in BG/BG2 and it is a terrible idea in DA:O. Precision in location--including locating on a point rather than a MOB--is absolutely critical.

4) Damage at a distance is golden.



Most combats thus play out quite similarly to BG/BG2. My sense is that the monsters thus far haven't been as tough as some of the IE mobs but the 3D environment creates additional difficulties in controlling the battlefield for a similar level of challenge.



Major differences

1) I'm really liking the AI control of healing via Wynne. There have been a number of occasions when I've gone to throw a heal on Allister and found Wynne already lined up to do it. Managing heals was one of the more tedious parts of BG/BG2 and it is substantially less difficult in DA:O.

2) I like the cooldown/WOW system. It eliminates the other tedious part of AD&D based gaming--having to stop and rest to get the mages recharged.

3) I do not like losing targeting when a character is thrown prone. While they'll eventually start hacking on something it is a pain in the butt to notice that it has happened which brings me to point 4

4) I would like more auto-pause options for those situations.

[rebump]

Normally, I wouldn't just jump in and attack but the OP is a hair shy from being labeled a pedant.



I'll grant the OP this: I could agree that NPCs (not the NPCs that actually can become party members) running into fire is a bit lame from an AI perspective but it seems a small part of such an overwhelmingly great game.



However, for the rest of what he is ranting on about, I'd say "troll is (obvious) troll" but in this instance I say:



troll is aspie



...and thusly, frustration has consumed almost all.



rebump

[M-zero]

OurSacrifice wrote...

brgillespie wrote...

"I don't want to have to do stupid tactics like running my tank in and kiting enemies around like an idiot while my ranged pummel them. That's not an interesting, or even remotely enjoyable gameplay experience."

With that mindset, you're playing the wrong, WRONG game. Take this as a lesson to research the gameplay of any future purchases. While you're waiting for Diablo III, take a look at Torchlight. It's available on Steam right now for $20.

It was never once a required tactic in any previous Bioware game, nor was it ever mentioned as a requirement or even highly recommended tactic in any Bioware communication or review (because the reviewers played on easy).

No real Bioware fan in their right mind would conclude prior to the games launch that running your tank in circles while the enemies chased him just so you could have a shot at some of the battles would be something you'd have to do.

I don't think I've had a fight yet where I've had to kite something to win. Maybe it's you?

Admittedly, there are a few aspects of the party AI that are frustratingly annoying.  I've managed to cut down some of it with the tactics options, but it is still a skosh heavy on the micromanagement, imo.

Modifié par M-zero, 10 novembre 2009 - 08:12 .

[Roam Hylia]

addiction21 wrote...

waffles

... I hate you.

Now I have to go out for waffles.

Have you considered getting into advertising?

[Burnheart]

Was I the only one who didn't have the knights in redcliff charge the flames?

Also OP I think your problem might be that you understood the ADD rules and so found the IE games easy, but don't understand the rules in DA:O and are being frustrated because of this.

I am playing on hard and not pause more then 2-3 times per fight, I get close call quite alot but I'm having fun.

[toronto13]

OurSacrifice wrote...

 I did however, say it wasn't fun.  The combat is terrible, plain and simple..

For me and 95% of the people here the game is fun to play and the combat is simular to that in BG,I just love the combat in DAO,it makes you think,fights are quite long,how can you not like game were you can use ballistas or you can pull a lever and hounds come to your aid ,or by simply talking little more with NPC a fight in Redcliffe courtyard can be a piece of cake.

[M-zero]

I would say that the game probably could have used a bit more polish from a balance standpoint. There are a few fights that a single spell can bump from the "very difficult" end of the spectrum to the "trivially easy" end of the spectrum. For instance, any fight that has a large number of weakish opponents can be rendered trivial with the waking nightmare spell (See: denerim alley fights and random encounters w/ guards and soldiers).

[akira100]

People seriously need to learn to read.

While it is often suicidal to post critique on a (fanboard), the OP never said he had problems with the difficulty. Yet there are 100+ posts flaiming him for his perceived newbishness.

The lack of auto-pause is quite obivous and detracts from the tactical experience at hard and nightmare difficulty. It is simply way more comfortable to have the game pause after using skills or losing targets than trying to keep track of it and then frantically hit space.

That being said I find that the AI is quite OK. Not superb but it does its job if set up with some proper tactics.

Another point I observed about posters here. The same people who loathe kiting as AI exploit / bad tactic insist on "pulling" enemies out of groups - that's just laughable. So i suppose those Hurlocks are too dumb to realize that their comrades 2 meters away are being attacked? Seems to be easily fixable with a patch though.

I really wished Bioware had the guts to make this game turn-based. It's still an enjoyable game even if it's a bit bland and "Lord of the Rings"-movie inspired.

Modifié par akira100, 10 novembre 2009 - 08:35 .