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Finally figured out a reason to save Morinth.


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#101
binaryemperor

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Internet Kraken wrote...

Why does Samara want to kill you just for being a renegade though? I can't think of to many things renegade Shepard can do that are in direct violation of her code. It's not like I'm gunning down innocent civilians. The only thing I can think of would be letting Pitne For go.

Maybe I just don't know the specifics of her code. Does anyone know what would be a violation of it?

Regardless I don't see Samara saying she might have to kill you as a reason to pick Morinth anyways. You know a lot more about Samara than Morinth. Morinth is still generally unknown and there's no guarantee that she will somehow be more stable than Samara. Seems like an unnecessary risk, which I thought renegade Shepard was generally opposed to.


This. If anything, Samara is more of a renegade herself.  Renegade Shep's actions in ME2 don't really even seem that incredibly cruel (except maybe leaving the survivors on Zaeed's mission)

or maybe a Renegon

#102
Bigdoser

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binaryemperor wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

Why does Samara want to kill you just for being a renegade though? I can't think of to many things renegade Shepard can do that are in direct violation of her code. It's not like I'm gunning down innocent civilians. The only thing I can think of would be letting Pitne For go.

Maybe I just don't know the specifics of her code. Does anyone know what would be a violation of it?

Regardless I don't see Samara saying she might have to kill you as a reason to pick Morinth anyways. You know a lot more about Samara than Morinth. Morinth is still generally unknown and there's no guarantee that she will somehow be more stable than Samara. Seems like an unnecessary risk, which I thought renegade Shepard was generally opposed to.


This. If anything, Samara is more of a renegade herself.  Renegade Shep's actions in ME2 don't really even seem that incredibly cruel (except maybe leaving the survivors on Zaeed's mission)

or maybe a Renegon


eer no if there is a choice to save an innocent instead of going after the criminal she would save the innocent and let the criminal get away.

Modifié par Bigdoser, 16 avril 2010 - 08:07 .


#103
GothamLord

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Bigdoser wrote...

binaryemperor wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

Why does Samara want to kill you just for being a renegade though? I can't think of to many things renegade Shepard can do that are in direct violation of her code. It's not like I'm gunning down innocent civilians. The only thing I can think of would be letting Pitne For go.

Maybe I just don't know the specifics of her code. Does anyone know what would be a violation of it?

Regardless I don't see Samara saying she might have to kill you as a reason to pick Morinth anyways. You know a lot more about Samara than Morinth. Morinth is still generally unknown and there's no guarantee that she will somehow be more stable than Samara. Seems like an unnecessary risk, which I thought renegade Shepard was generally opposed to.


This. If anything, Samara is more of a renegade herself.  Renegade Shep's actions in ME2 don't really even seem that incredibly cruel (except maybe leaving the survivors on Zaeed's mission)

or maybe a Renegon


eer no if there is a choice to save an innocent instead of going after the criminal she would save the innocent and let the criminal get away.


....but yet its ok for her to threaten to slaughter cops for detaining her and doing their job because shes going after a criminal.

#104
Lady of the Waters

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AntiChri5 wrote...

 Posted Image

:D


Except for the fact that it's murder, not suicide.

#105
Skilled Seeker

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I don't like Samara because of her stupid hypocrite code and her 'holier than thou' mentality. Thats more than enough reason for me to pick Morinth.

#106
HighMoon

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How exactly is her code hypocritical? ^

Modifié par Golden-Rose, 16 avril 2010 - 09:07 .


#107
Skilled Seeker

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Too long to go into. Search these very forums, there are entire threads on the subject that show how much of a hypocrite Samara is, not to mention 'shoot first, ask questions later'.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 16 avril 2010 - 09:24 .


#108
Torrential

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My Renegade shep took her along as she's more powerful than her mother in his eyes, kills anything in her way, code or not. My Lawful Paragon shep hated both of them, and would see them both airlocked if he had his way. I've yet to playthrough as a fully 'good' character yet, that is going to be my third playthough :)

It's also been said a couple of times, but my Renegade Shep resisted her and would do so again. He takes what he can use, and she is twice as 'dangerous' as her mother :). (Not twice as powerful, twice as dangerous ;) )

Modifié par Torrential, 16 avril 2010 - 09:14 .


#109
GothamLord

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Golden-Rose wrote...

How exactly is her code hypocritical? ^


Take way to long to go into the whole thing   a quick couple examples..

Samara crossed paths with Nihlus Kryik after she witnessed him murder an unarmed civilian. She had no choice but to engage him.
Samara proceeds to beat the living crap out of a Eclipse mercenary hurling her across the room now said merc is UNARMED. She kills her by crushing her throat/snapping her neck.
Hmm.. seeing as Nihlus was a FREAKIN' Spectre maybe that *innocent* civilain deserved to die just as easy as the merc.

She stops chasing Nihlus ,who to her is a criminal by her code, because he puts her in a situation that would have her kill innocents. But shes okay with killing law enforcing police officers, that detain her by doing their jobs, because its hindering her from chasing a criminal, Morinth.

Modifié par GothamLord, 16 avril 2010 - 09:20 .


#110
Skilled Seeker

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Not to mention the biggest hypocrisy of all. When you first meet Samara, had you been following her code then you would have to kill her for attacking an unarmed merc. The code doesn't care about the context behind actions.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 16 avril 2010 - 09:29 .


#111
Guest_Shandepared_*

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GothamLord wrote...

Hmm.. seeing as Nihlus was a FREAKIN' Spectre maybe that *innocent* civilain deserved to die just as easy as the merc.


Surely everyone is entitled to due process.

#112
GothamLord

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Shandepared wrote...

GothamLord wrote...

Hmm.. seeing as Nihlus was a FREAKIN' Spectre maybe that *innocent* civilain deserved to die just as easy as the merc.


Surely everyone is entitled to due process.


I was being sarcastic.   Neither were right in their actions. Samara had no right to complain about what Nihlus did when she does it herself. 

Modifié par GothamLord, 16 avril 2010 - 09:51 .


#113
HighMoon

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@GothamLord and Skilled Seeker

I suppose this shows that she is resolute... she let's nothing stand between her and her goals and also sees anyone involved with the mercenary profession as being corrupt and not capable of innocence. She's definitely one of the more complex characters to understand, I'll give her that.

But just how is Morinth better than her? In terms of morality I think her daughter very much her inferior (if, that is,  in this/that day and age being immoral/without moral boundries can be considered an "inferiority" in comparison to a person of moral virtue) in that she takes pleasure from killing... Samara, regardless of the way in which she deals with a situation, always aims at the greater good; and that, I think,  is a key aspect of her character that many fail to realise.

Modifié par Golden-Rose, 16 avril 2010 - 10:03 .


#114
GothamLord

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Golden-Rose wrote...

@GothamLord and Skilled Seeker

I suppose this shows that she is resolute... she let's nothing stand between her and her goals and also sees anyone involved with the mercenary profession as being corrupt and not capable of innocence. She's definitely one of the more complex characters to understand, I'll give her that.

But just how is Morinth better than her? In terms of morality I think her daughter very much her inferior (if, that is,  in this/that day and age being immoral/without moral boundries can be considered an "inferiority" in comparison to a person of moral virtue) in that she takes pleasure from killing... Samara, regardless of the way in which she deals with a situation, always aims at the greater good; and that, I think,  is a key aspect of her character that many fail to realise.


1) The argument wasnt if Morinth was better, its that Samara is a hypocrite.

2) You totally ignored everything I just used as example about Nihlus and the police. 

How is killed police for the greater good?

#115
HighMoon

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GothamLord wrote...


1) The argument wasnt if Morinth was better, its that Samara is a hypocrite.

2) You totally ignored everything I just used as example about Nihlus and the police. 

How is killed police for the greater good?


1) I never claimed it wasn't. I was simply bringing up a point of interest.

2) Keyword: "Aims" - Samara's actions are no doubt disputed by many as being for the greater good or not. But one should never forget that she always AIMS for good, i.e. her ultimate goal; this is her strict code and she cannot betray it, a Justicar will and *must* ALWAYS aim for ultimate good. If you'd like compare it to the codex entry which says that Asari matriarchs often make decisions which seem incomprehensible and foolish at first but at the end pay off when there carefully laid plans come to fruition... or something along those lines. Except in this case it is slightly different because instead of making decisions of their own free will the Justicar's are following a code which they have sworn themselves to.

Modifié par Golden-Rose, 16 avril 2010 - 10:30 .


#116
GothamLord

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Golden-Rose wrote...

1) I never claimed it wasn't. I was simply bringing up a point of interest. 


You asking about Morinth being better  But just how is Morinth better than her? I read more as an actual question than as a retorical statement

2) Keyword: "Aims" - Samara's actions are no doubt disputed by many as being for the greater good or not. But one should never forget that she always AIMS for good, i.e. her ultimate goal; this is her strict code and she cannot betray it, a Justicar will and *must* ALWAYS aim for ultimate good. If you'd like compare it to the codex entry which says that Asari matriarchs often make decisions which seem incomprehensible and foolish at first but at the end pay off when there carefully laid plans come to fruition... or something along those lines. Except in this case it is slightly different because instead of making decisions of their own free will the Justicar's are following a code which they have sworn themselves to.


Okay ...so please explain to me if killing off an entire station full of police officers is allowed by this Justicar code because capturing Morinth is more important *in the aim for the ultimate good*    Then why was the lost of innocents in the situation that Nihlus caused something that gave her pause and had her stop following him? By the Justicar code she followed he was a murderer and needed to be stopped.  Killing the innocents certainly would have seemed incomprehensible but for a greater good in stopping someone as skilled and powerful as Nihlus.  Is there evil tracking scale here that allows choices on killing of innocents?  Nihlus was known to have just killed the one person so  letting him go was alright in this cause. Morinth on the other hand was known to have killed hundreds so a station of police officers was exceptable??  

Modifié par GothamLord, 16 avril 2010 - 10:46 .


#117
HighMoon

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GothamLord wrote...

Okay ...so please explain to me if killing off an entire station full of police officers is allowed by this Justicar code because capturing Morinth is more important *in the aim for the ultimate good*


If that it what it required in order to meet the ultimate goal then yes. The ultimate goal = good in the eyes of the Justicar code. Regardless of how others may view it... As their title implies, a justicar focuses on exacting justice first and foremost. So long as they succeed in this the method in which they pull it off is secondary... of course they don't always succeed in their goals due to various reasons. Like any one else, they are not immune to failure.

GothamLord wrote...    Then why was the lost of innocents in the situation that Nihlus caused something that gave her pause and had her stop following him? By the Justicar code she followed he was a murderer and needed to be stopped.  Killing the innocents certainly would have seemed incomprehensible but for a greater good in stopping someone as skilled and powerful as Nihlus.  Is there evil tracking scale here that allows choices on killing of innocents?  Nihlus was known to have just killed the one person so  letting him go was alright in this cause. Morinth on the other hand was known to have killed hundreds so a station of police officers was exceptable??  


It is always a sad event when innocents die, and a justicar will try and avoid it as often as they can. However, as mentioned above, when it is deemed necessary to kill in order to accomplish their goal they are often left with no choice in the matter. That doesn't mean they don't regret it however.

#118
GothamLord

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Golden-Rose wrote...

GothamLord wrote...

Okay ...so please explain to me if killing off an entire station full of police officers is allowed by this Justicar code because capturing Morinth is more important *in the aim for the ultimate good*


If that it what it required in order to meet the ultimate goal then yes. The ultimate goal = good in the eyes of the Justicar code. Regardless of how others may view it... As their title implies, a justicar focuses on exacting justice first and foremost. So long as they succeed in this the method in which they pull it off is secondary... of course they don't always succeed in their goals due to various reasons. Like any one else, they are not immune to failure.

GothamLord wrote...    Then why was the lost of innocents in the situation that Nihlus caused something that gave her pause and had her stop following him? By the Justicar code she followed he was a murderer and needed to be stopped.  Killing the innocents certainly would have seemed incomprehensible but for a greater good in stopping someone as skilled and powerful as Nihlus.  Is there evil tracking scale here that allows choices on killing of innocents?  Nihlus was known to have just killed the one person so  letting him go was alright in this cause. Morinth on the other hand was known to have killed hundreds so a station of police officers was exceptable??  


It is always a sad event when innocents die, and a justicar will try and avoid it as often as they can. However, as mentioned above, when it is deemed necessary to kill in order to accomplish their goal they are often left with no choice in the matter. That doesn't mean they don't regret it however.



I'm still not seeing why killing the police is fine however vs. the other innocents that she spared.  Its not following a pattern. She was tracking what her code deemed as a killer either way.  Why are the police subject to her wrath but not the other villagers?  Because the police are more likely to actually put up a fight to detain her? Her code allowing her to be detained for any period of time what so ever sets it up that shes almost required to fight her way out killing dozens or more.  Fighting to avoid detainment from the start would cause far less death and destruction.    Killing innocents is an unjust act either way. Who are they exacting Justice for at that point then? Do more Justicars come to avenge those murdered innocents now? Do Justicars hunt Justicars?? Doing unjust acts to bring another subject to justice is not something for the greater good. The Justicar Code is a flawed and hypocritical dogma.  Its like like playing Calvin Ball and the rules work when they suit what you need. 

Modifié par GothamLord, 16 avril 2010 - 11:39 .


#119
Gabey5

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AntiChri5 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

My reasons were simple: Samara will inevitably try to kill me.


Samara says if you force her to do something against her code she may have to kill you if she ever sees you again.

Morinth tries to kill you. Twice. And gets horny at the idea.

Even my most renegade of Shepards feels safer with Samara.

]
then you arent renegade..enough=]

#120
Gabey5

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Lady of the Waters wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

 Posted Image

:D


Except for the fact that it's murder, not suicide.

no....if you wanna kill yourself its teh way to go..knowingly...

#121
GothamLord

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Gabey5 wrote...

no....if you wanna kill yourself its teh way to go..knowingly...


The point was that you arent killing yourself.  Morinth is still killing you .. Thus murder. Your just willingly letting her do it. 

#122
Ecael

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GothamLord wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

no....if you wanna kill yourself its teh way to go..knowingly...


The point was that you arent killing yourself.  Morinth is still killing you .. Thus murder. Your just willingly letting her do it. 

Euthanasia?

#123
Vaeliorin

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Ecael wrote...

GothamLord wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...
no....if you wanna kill yourself its teh way to go..knowingly...

The point was that you arent killing yourself.  Morinth is still killing you .. Thus murder. Your just willingly letting her do it. 

Euthanasia?

Morinth, the Dr. Kevorkian of ME.

Except I imagine it's a bit more fun the way Morinth does it.

#124
GothamLord

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Who would you like to assist with your death this evening ?? 

This man ??
Posted Image

or this woman??
Posted Image

Modifié par GothamLord, 16 avril 2010 - 12:32 .


#125
HighMoon

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GothamLord wrote...


I'm still not seeing why killing the police is fine however vs. the other innocents that she spared.  Its not following a pattern. She was tracking what her code deemed as a killer either way.  Why are the police subject to her wrath but not the other villagers?  Because the police are more likely to actually put up a fight to detain her? Her code allowing her to be detained for any period of time what so ever sets it up that shes almost required to fight her way out killing dozens or more.  Fighting to avoid detainment from the start would cause far less death and destruction.    Killing innocents is an unjust act either way. Who are they exacting Justice for at that point then? Do more Justicars come to avenge those murdered innocents now? Do Justicars hunt Justicars?? Doing unjust acts to bring another subject to justice is not something for the greater good. The Justicar Code is a flawed and hypocritical dogma.  Its like like playing Calvin Ball and the rules work when they suit what you need. 


Indeed it is an unjust act. Which as I said, the Justicar hold regret for, but they must not let anything impede their progress. The difference between the police and civilians is that while police are innocent to an extent their job is also to protect the innocent from harm, so in a that aspect they are above the average Asari walking the streets of Nos Astra/Thessia etc., they are enforcers of the law. Similar to the Justicars they have noble goals and yet can prove to be obstacles through means such as violence and incarceration (most cops would no better than to get in the way of a Justicar however, they have no doubt become familiar with how they operate) .
 
The reason she did not kill the "true" innocent in the Nihlus situation is precisely as you said, the police (Primarily detective Anaya) is capable of impeding her progress through means of force... The definition of an innocent to the Justicar is someone who is helpless and not capable of harm and most importantly someone who is not involved in a crime syndicate, e.g. Eclipse. The difficulty for many (especially, I would guess, with the non-justicar Asari) is finding the difference between what we consider innocents and what the Justicars consider innocence. For them there are very few measures that they will not go to in order so that they may exact justice, the exception to this is the harming of true innocents (i.e. the harmless) and obviously, the harming of their own sisters, which would just be plain stupid. Like attacking someone on your own army... As I said though, luckily most of the time police, civilians and Justicar are all smart enough to stay out of each others business. They know of the dangers that can arise as a result of doing such things.

This is as far as I shall take this. I feel I have expressed things clearly enough... and if not then I suppose we just have to agree to disagree.

Modifié par Golden-Rose, 16 avril 2010 - 12:43 .