183 réponses à ce sujet

[oblivionkyle]

alright...I got a question... can 1H and shield be Dps, my friend said it canbut he didnt realy give me much info on the mater and because im gonig to make shale my tank and me a dw warrior, i thought "Hey, why not see if i can make alistair a dps shield" is this possible, if so HOW??

[yllemsgnud]

sure, instead of using all of his stam for sustained abilities, get and use the activated ones, like assault, shield pommel, shield bash, etc. He'll be pretty useful I'd imagine, lots of stuns/knockdowns but I'd imagine his dps would be a little lower then a the other routes/character choices.

[sajahVarel]

Possible, yes it's possible, but don't expect to outdamage a 2H or a DW warrior.



There are basically 2 ways to make a s&s dps :



1. you put everything in str and wield an axe (don't bother with the middle talent line, it's the tank line, you'll need shield mastery to max the shield combo damages and the 4 shield attacks) and pick berserker as primary spec.



2. You put everything in dex, and auto attack with an overpoisoned dagger, and again, pick berserker as primary spec.



If you have warden's keep DLC, the blood thirst talent + reaver' spec will give you a nice combo to up the dps.

[Prismo]

On higher difficulty levels I find Shale to be a pretty sub-par tank, mainly because he requires CON to equip Large crystals and DEX tanks are infinitely more effective.

From a min/max point of view a sword and board warrior not being used as a tank is basically dead weight, that being said, I don't think you really have to min/max to beat this game (especially below Hard) so if you want a dps shield warrior and are fine with getting a bit less damage out of him just follow either of sajahVarel builds (note: the DEX build is also how I build my sword and board tanks, so that build would make a decent dps/off-tank).

Modifié par Chazzwazza, 16 avril 2010 - 05:19 .

[Bluebruiser]

I guess by why? Maybe if you like the aesthetic of the sword and shield.



Truth be told you can play this game however you want. Its pretty easy once you get the mechanics down. You wont do anywhere near the dps of a 2wield or 2hander but does that really matter?

[sillymonkboy]

Mainly, I'd guess because the Warden going to his Calling in that video is kicking major butt rocking the sword/shield combo. I know everytime I watch it I get pumped about making yet another human s/s warrior even it it doesn't actually play out that way.

[oblivionkyle]

no, actually ive watched the video once, its ok i guess, just with me bein dw and i love alistair, but i wanna keep a 1h and shield with shale as a tank, i jsut wanted to know if s/s could be dps, nothing to do with your obsession with some video

[ThatsSaucey]

sillymonkboy wrote...

Mainly, I'd guess because the Warden going to his Calling in that video is kicking major butt rocking the sword/shield combo. I know everytime I watch it I get pumped about making yet another human s/s warrior even it it doesn't actually play out that way.

lol so true....

[sillymonkboy]

oblivionkyle wrote...

no, actually ive watched the video once, its ok i guess, just with me bein dw and i love alistair, but i wanna keep a 1h and shield with shale as a tank, i jsut wanted to know if s/s could be dps, nothing to do with your obsession with some video

Seriously?  That felt unnecessary.  Do you know what the word actually means, or are you just in the habit of making assumptions about people you don't even know.  Obsession is an odd word choice, considering you love a fictional character made of pixels and computer code.

However, in the spirit of good will, I'll give you a more detailed answer.  I'll also do it with correct spelling, grammar and punctuation, and without making assumptions about you.

Can 1h/s dps? Yes, dps means damage per second and any origin/class combination in Dragon Age can do damage.  Will it be competitive with other talent trees? No.  However, if you wish to pursue it anyway:

• The first line of shield talents along with shield mastery will give you reasonable shield-based damage capabilities.
• Focus on strength and strength increasing gear to increase the damage of your shield strikes.
• Cailan's Arms are a good choice due to the +5 damage and +5 combat stamina regeneration set bonus allowing you to spam more activated strikes and do more damage with them.
• The Veshialle and Earthheart's Portable Bulwark are also very good choices.
• Daggers and Dex are a good choice if you want to boost you defensive capabilities while still doing adequate damage (particularly with The Rose's Thorn), but will not increase the damage of your shield strikes in the way that strength will.
• Poisons can help bring up your overall damage.  A single point will allow you to apply any poison to your weapon.

As you advance in level, you will find Alistair steadily becomes a better tank than Shale.  You may want to consider having Alistair as the tank and Shale as the dpser.

Good luck.

Modifié par sillymonkboy, 17 avril 2010 - 03:46 .

[beancounter501]

^^ All good advise there. I would add to it taking the Berserker spec. Then bonus dmg also gets applied to all of your shield specials. In my last play though I made AListar a strength based S&S character. He was still quite tough.

[traversc]

Sword and shield can actually do better DPS than 2H at higher levels. Either way though, you're still way suboptimal compared to DW, so honestly, if you're not even going to globally min-max, why even bother wondering whether you're locally optimal? Just play the game however you find aesthetically pleasing. Everyone who plays 2H does.

[Prismo]

traversc wrote...

Sword and shield can actually do better DPS than 2H at higher levels. Either way though, you're still way suboptimal compared to DW, so honestly, if you're not even going to globally min-max, why even bother wondering whether you're locally optimal? Just play the game however you find aesthetically pleasing. Everyone who plays 2H does.

I think you are somewhat misguided about the damage potential of a well built/played 2H warrior.

[traversc]

Chazzwazza wrote...

traversc wrote...

Sword and shield can actually do better DPS than 2H at higher levels. Either way though, you're still way suboptimal compared to DW, so honestly, if you're not even going to globally min-max, why even bother wondering whether you're locally optimal? Just play the game however you find aesthetically pleasing. Everyone who plays 2H does.

I think you are somewhat misguided about the damage potential of a well built/played 2H warrior.

Nope.  Sword/shield does do more DPS towards the end-game.  2H and S/S has almost the exact same progression, but S/S attacks 50% faster.  You do the math.  OR don't do the math and ignore logic and come up with some half baked argument.  Like ZOMG I HAZ SUNDER!111.  Amirite?  As if this hasn't been rehashed a million times

[Hulk Hsieh]

S/S has no AOE talenet.

It will always lag greatly in DPS when the other 2 specs doing around a thousand damage in just one click.

[traversc]

Hulk Hsieh wrote...


S/S has no AOE talenet.
It will always lag greatly in DPS when the other 2 specs doing around a thousand damage in just one click.

Actually, no.  It depends how many targets you can get.  The radius is pretty pitiful and it's restricted to a small angle IIRC you need to hit 4+ targets ON RECHARGE to get the same DPS. Even more when you take into account attack speed boosts, flaming weapon
etc. 
TBH, that's not realistic since after the first few seconds, most mobs should be dead and you are just doing cleanup after. 

Modifié par traversc, 18 avril 2010 - 06:55 .

[mosspit]

traversc wrote...

Actually, no.  It depends how many targets you can get.  The radius is pretty pitiful and it's restricted to a small angle IIRC you need to hit 4+ targets ON RECHARGE to get the same DPS. Even more when you take into account attack speed boosts, flaming weapon
etc. 
TBH, that's not realistic since after the first few seconds, most mobs should be dead and you are just doing cleanup after. 

Radius is pitiful? Then it depends on what you are comparing against. vs mages? Yes ofc. Against whirlwind? 2H sweep has a better range. Against SnS? Nothing to compare against. Pus i don't quite understand what is "small angle". I seem to rmb 2H sweep is capable of hitting enemies behind my 2H.

Another thing in favour of a 2H is most of 2H talents have relatively low cd as compared to a SnS's. Personal favourites are 2H sweep (20s) and Sunder arms (10s). Plus, afaik those talents can benefit from the generally higher modifer values of 2H weapons. iirc, shields generally have modifer of 1. Auto-attacks are separate ofc.

I compared under unbuffed conditions. You can ofc add in speed buffs / runes / poisons, etc. It is difficult comparing single-target dps with multi-targets. And it is difficult to compare dps where a class which can talent spam more often than one than auto-atks more frequently. I will admit that I do not have numbers to prove but I generally "feel" that a 2Her can outdamage a SnS under more or less similar circumstances.

Modifié par mosspit, 18 avril 2010 - 07:42 .

[traversc]

mosspit wrote...

Radius is pitiful? Then it depends on what you are comparing against. vs mages? Yes ofc. Against whirlwind? 2H sweep has a better range. Against SnS? Nothing to compare against. Pus i don't quite understand what is "small angle". I seem to rmb 2H sweep is capable of hitting enemies behind my 2H.

You're right.  It's been a while since I played 2H. 

Another thing in favour of a 2H is most of 2H talents have relatively low cd as compared to a SnS's. Personal favourites are 2H sweep (20s) and Sunder arms (10s). Plus, afaik those talents can benefit from the generally higher modifer values of 2H weapons. iirc, shields generally have modifer of 1. Auto-attacks are separate ofc. 

And it is difficult to compare dps where a class which can talent spam
more often than one than auto-atks more frequently.

All S/S talents have a recharge of 20s, so I disagree that 2H can talent spam more frequently.  Furthermore, critical strike is absolutely terrible and mighty blow is completely marginal.  Also, I have no idea what you mean "modifier of 1."  2H and S/S have almost the exact same modifier, which is why 2H is so bad.  

You can ofc add in speed buffs / runes / poisons, etc. It is difficult comparing single-target dps with multi-targets.  I will admit that I do not have numbers to prove but I generally "feel" that a 2Her can outdamage a SnS under more or less similar circumstances.

Yup.  the fact that the gap between 2H and other weapon styles can only widen, and the fact that 2H has absolutely terrible synergy are the two reasons it is completely sub-par. 

[mosspit]

traversc wrote...

All S/S talents have a recharge of 20s, so I disagree that 2H can talent spam more frequently.  Furthermore, critical strike is absolutely terrible and mighty blow is completely marginal.  Also, I have no idea what you mean "modifier of 1."  2H and S/S have almost the exact same modifier, which is why 2H is so bad.  

ALL talents? Maybe I am mistaken since I neither have patch 1.03a nor x-pac. Overpower is 30s. Assault is 40s. Thats about half of an SnS repertoire of offensive actives. 2H actually does skill spam more often. What i mean is that all shield talents will ride on the shield str modifier of 1 instead of that of the main hand weapon. Thats why I also treat auto-atk separately. If you consider talent spam, I just don't see how a SnS can outdamage a 2H. 

CS and MB are auto-crits but are also the weaker talents imo. Generally i choose them when my sunders and 2H sweep are on cd. CS are nice as they have are fast start and its recovery animation can be cancelled.

[soteria]

All S/S talents have a recharge of 20s, so I disagree that 2H can talent spam more frequently. Furthermore, critical strike is absolutely terrible and mighty blow is completely marginal. Also, I have no idea what you mean "modifier of 1." 2H and S/S have almost the exact same modifier, which is why 2H is so bad.

Well, sunder arms and sunder armor have a cooldown of 10 seconds, plus mighty blow and 2h sweep with a cooldown of 20 seconds, so that's quite a bit more talent usage. If all the 2h warrior uses is the two sunders, he's already ahead. Mighty blow and critical strike are both great for shattering enemies, and the former works for countering grabs/overwhelms. "Modifier of 1" - strength modifier. Mauls have a strength modifier of 1.25, which is non-trivial, so no, they don't have the same damage progression.



There are other reasons s/s might be able to keep up in damage, but you're mostly off in your criticisms here. You also ignore stun/knockdown immunity, which can make a significant difference in dps in a number of fights.

[Phaelducan]

traversc wrote...

mosspit wrote...

Radius is pitiful? Then it depends on what you are comparing against. vs mages? Yes ofc. Against whirlwind? 2H sweep has a better range. Against SnS? Nothing to compare against. Pus i don't quite understand what is "small angle". I seem to rmb 2H sweep is capable of hitting enemies behind my 2H.

You're right.  It's been a while since I played 2H. 

Another thing in favour of a 2H is most of 2H talents have relatively low cd as compared to a SnS's. Personal favourites are 2H sweep (20s) and Sunder arms (10s). Plus, afaik those talents can benefit from the generally higher modifer values of 2H weapons. iirc, shields generally have modifer of 1. Auto-attacks are separate ofc. 

And it is difficult to compare dps where a class which can talent spam
more often than one than auto-atks more frequently.

All S/S talents have a recharge of 20s, so I disagree that 2H can talent spam more frequently.  Furthermore, critical strike is absolutely terrible and mighty blow is completely marginal.  Also, I have no idea what you mean "modifier of 1."  2H and S/S have almost the exact same modifier, which is why 2H is so bad.  

You can ofc add in speed buffs / runes / poisons, etc. It is difficult comparing single-target dps with multi-targets.  I will admit that I do not have numbers to prove but I generally "feel" that a 2Her can outdamage a SnS under more or less similar circumstances.

Yup.  the fact that the gap between 2H and other weapon styles can only widen, and the fact that 2H has absolutely terrible synergy are the two reasons it is completely sub-par. 

Even on one target... and correct me if I am wrong... but isn't there a hard cap on attack speed? If so, assuming you can hit that exact same speed cap with a 2h rather than a 1h, the attacking 50% faster argument would be invalid.

I only mention this as I had a 2h Sten in a party with two mages running haste. My tank was Alistair, and Sten was hitting just as fast as Alistair. I checked and if there was a difference it wasn't detectable just by looking at their swings.

Also, S/S in all probability won't be 100% Strength. 2H very easily could be (only really need an 18 dex if you want to finish the other warrior tree). With that difference, at high levels the difference could be big using the Chasind Great Maul.

In any case, opinions are fine, but labeling 2H unequivocally as "sub-par" is certainly not a truth. You can smash faces with 2H just fine.

[mosspit]

soteria wrote...

... and the former works for countering grabs/overwhelms.

Nice! I did not know that heh.

[beancounter501]

traversc wrote...
Nope.  Sword/shield does do more DPS towards the end-game.  2H and S/S has almost the exact same progression, but S/S attacks 50% faster.  You do the math.  OR don't do the math and ignore logic and come up with some half baked argument.  Like ZOMG I HAZ SUNDER!111.  Amirite?  As if this hasn't been rehashed a million times

Ehhh, no.  Not even  close.  Before any haste a S&S has an attack rate of one every 1.9 seconds with a sword.  Two hand has an attack speed of 2.5.  Over ten second a S&S can strike about 5 times.  A two hand can hit 4 times.  Through in Sunder Arms and the Two hand has the same base hit rate of a S&S.  Through in Sunder Armor and a two hand is hitting more then a S&S over ten seconds.

Look at the S&S talents - they suck.  Period.  Assault is 4 hits at 60% dmg.  That is equivalent to 2.4 normal hits, but you get hit with armor on every one.  Overpower is going good for shattering.  The best one is Shield Pummel.

I have ran Alistar as a Strength Based Berserker S&S and Oghren as full blown two hand warrior in the same party and there was NO comparision at all.  Alistar had more staying power, but he could never even come close to Oghren in DPS.  Sweep, mighty blow, sunder arms and sunder armor is where it is at.

Modifié par beancounter501, 18 avril 2010 - 02:22 .

[traversc]

beancounter501 wrote...

traversc wrote...
Nope.  Sword/shield does do more DPS towards the end-game.  2H and S/S has almost the exact same progression, but S/S attacks 50% faster.  You do the math.  OR don't do the math and ignore logic and come up with some half baked argument.  Like ZOMG I HAZ SUNDER!111.  Amirite?  As if this hasn't been rehashed a million times

Ehhh, no.  Not even  close.  Before any haste a S&S has an attack rate of one every 1.9 seconds with a sword.  Two hand has an attack speed of 2.5.  Over ten second a S&S can strike about 5 times.  A two hand can hit 4 times.  Through in Sunder Arms and the Two hand has the same base hit rate of a S&S.  Through in Sunder Armor and a two hand is hitting more then a S&S over ten seconds.

Look at the S&S talents - they suck.  Period.  Assault is 4 hits at 60% dmg.  That is equivalent to 2.4 normal hits, but you get hit with armor on every one.  Overpower is going good for shattering.  The best one is Shield Pummel.

I have ran Alistar as a Strength Based Berserker S&S and Oghren as full blown two hand warrior in the same party and there was NO comparision at all.  Alistar had more staying power, but he could never even come close to Oghren in DPS.  Sweep, mighty blow, sunder arms and sunder armor is where it is at.

See they don't even read. 

"I HAZ SUNDAR! 111 "  Wuzirite or wuzirite?

Facts: Sundar is not as good with Blood Thirst, which if you are going to min-max, every warrior should have.  2H sunder does even worse with Blood Thirst + Haste to the point that it's not even beneficial to use.  Even worse with dual-haste.  Even worse with flaming weapon, frost weapon and damage runes, etc. 

Even if we somehow compare the S/S and 2H in a complete vacuum with no team synergy (lol) S/S still wins.  The 2.4 hits of assault is still better than the 2.0 hits of sunder.  Let's not forget that S/S takes better advantage of Blood Thirst. 

Modifié par traversc, 18 avril 2010 - 08:53 .

[traversc]

soteria wrote...

Well, sunder arms and sunder armor have a cooldown of 10 seconds, plus mighty blow and 2h sweep with a cooldown of 20 seconds, so that's quite a bit more talent usage. If all the 2h warrior uses is the two sunders, he's already ahead. Mighty blow and critical strike are both great for shattering enemies, and the former works for countering grabs/overwhelms. "Modifier of 1" - strength modifier. Mauls have a strength modifier of 1.25, which is non-trivial, so no, they don't have the same damage progression.

Actually, sunder #2 has a recharge of 20s.(error #1)  Considering those are the only two talents that are actually decent for single target DPS (critical and mighty are both terrible), that means you actually DON'T have more talents available to spam than S/S, considering S/S has 3 DPS adding talents. 

Also, please don't try to lecture me on combat mechanics lol.  I never stated they have the same damage progression.  The quote about "modifier of 1" is taken WAY out of context.  But either way, again, you are wrong (error #2): S/S has WAY higher damage progression due to faster attack speed. 

There are other reasons s/s might be able to keep up in damage, but you're mostly off in your criticisms here. You also ignore stun/knockdown immunity, which can make a significant difference in dps in a number of fights.

No I don't ignore that fact (error #3).  The argument is easily countered by the fact that S/S has easily 30-40 more defense than 2H as well as more armor.  You know what else makes a significant difference in DPS?  Not taking damage so your mages can focus nuking rather than healing your ass. 

[beancounter501]

^^ LOL, have you actually played both classes or you just pulling this out of thin air. Go play em both then come back and post.

Besides, mages have much better things to do then waste mana double hasting some S&S.

Modifié par beancounter501, 18 avril 2010 - 09:23 .