183 réponses à ce sujet

[traversc]

beancounter501 wrote...

^^ LOL, have you actually played both classes or you just pulling this out of thin air. Go play em both then come back and post.

Besides, mages have much better things to do then waste mana double hasting some S&S.

Where did I say double-hasting was a good idea?  Besides, it is only 5% difference than haste/Blood thirst.  Come back whenyou have a real argument. 

Also: PS, you can easily use dual haste, especially late game when spell points are plentiful.  Mana is never a problem because 1) blood magic 2) mana potions.  Lol infinite mana.  

Modifié par traversc, 18 avril 2010 - 09:30 .

[Random70]

traversc wrote...
Actually, sunder #2 has a recharge of 20s.(error #1)  Considering those are the only two talents that are actually decent for single target DPS (critical and mighty are both terrible), that means you actually DON'T have more talents available to spam than S/S, considering S/S has 3 DPS adding talents. 

At high levels, Mighty Blow and Critical Strike hit for 175+,  w/ 50% stun and a sunder effect from Destroyer . I wouldn't exactly call that terrible. Now combine these two with the two Sunder attacks and 2H Sweep. There's no way in hell a S/S is going to 'out-spam' a 2-Hander.

traversc wrote...
No I don't ignore that fact (error #3).  The argument is easily countered by the fact that S/S has easily 30-40 more defense than 2H as well as more armor.  You know what else makes a significant difference in DPS?  Not taking damage so your mages can focus nuking rather than healing your ass. 

More like +20-30 defense which is still far short of optimal levels. Shields provide no Armor so AC is the same unless you're running Shield Wall with its 20% damage penalty (Not shown but still calculated). You're correct that mages should be nuking but isn't your S/S running Blood Thirst with its -12 HP regen? 

Modifié par Random70, 18 avril 2010 - 09:56 .

[traversc]

Random70 wrote...

At high levels, Mighty Blow and Critical Strike hit for 175+,  w/ 50% stun and a sunder effect from Destroyer . I wouldn't exactly call that terrible. Now combine these two with the two Sunder attacks and 2H Sweep. There's no way in hell a S/S is going to 'out-spam' a 2-Hander.

With enough increased attack speed, it's worse than auto-attack.  Plus critical strike has a recharge of 60, so even if it were good (it's not), it's completely marginal effect on DPS.  Meanwhile, all 4 of S/S talents have a recharge of 20.  So no, you're won't be out-spamming a S/S, if S/S actually cared to spam (which it doesn't need to).   

More like +20-30 defense which is still far short of optimal levels.

Howe's shield (or champion shield): +12 defense, base 6. 
Shield Defense: +10.  Powerful Swings: -5 (for 2H).  Total difference = 33.  That's a HUGE difference.  ESPECIALLY if you're pumping all your stats into STR for damage, that means a straight absolute-value percentage reduction of 33% less hits. 

You're correct that mages should be nuking but isn't your S/S running Blood Thirst with its -12 HP regen? 

I assume you're going to be running Blood Thirst whether you're S/S or 2H.  I mean, unless you're bad.  -12 HP every 2 seconds is almost nothing. 

Modifié par traversc, 18 avril 2010 - 10:47 .

[soteria]

Actually, sunder #2 has a recharge of 20s.(error #1) Considering those are the only two talents that are actually decent for single target DPS (critical and mighty are both terrible), that means you actually DON'T have more talents available to spam than S/S, considering S/S has 3 DPS adding talents.

Critical and mighty blow aren't as bad as everyone makes them out to be, especially against armored targets and especially since they're both free shatters. You're also still ignoring the fact that S&S has 0 AOE, and it gets worse (relatively) in Awakening. Also, you're using a bunch of mutually conflicting arguments. You deride sunder because of haste and other speed buffs, but then you argue that S&S wins on specials, despite the fact that you're looking even worse in that category once we start looking at haste.

Also, please don't try to lecture me on combat mechanics lol. I never stated they have the same damage progression. The quote about "modifier of 1" is taken WAY out of context. But either way, again, you are wrong (error #2): S/S has WAY higher damage progression due to faster attack speed.

Uh, no, you specifically said "they have practically the same modifier." 2h gets 25% more damage from strength, vs 1h attacking ~30% faster. On the other hand, your S&S build is going to have less armor pen and be hitting for less, making it more greatly affected by the flat damage reduction of armor. So in terms of auto-attack, if we want to go that route, you're definitely not "WAY higher."

No I don't ignore that fact (error #3). The argument is easily countered by the fact that S/S has easily 30-40 more defense than 2H as well as more armor. You know what else makes a significant difference in DPS? Not taking damage so your mages can focus nuking rather than healing your ass.

No, I'm pretty sure you've been ignoring it up till the time I pointed it out. I'm sure it warms your heart to tally up my "errors," but for that to have been an error, you would have to produce a post where you actually mentioned anything in regards to indomitable or S&S's defense. And no, higher defense doesn't do you any good here. Do your characters die on a regular basis? No? Neither do mine, and I don't even (usually) use a healer, so higher defense isn't going to allow any more damage from the mage. Even if I did/do have a healer, taking 1 second to cast Group Heal is a lot less time-consuming than getting chain-stunned by archers or knocked down by ogres.

What you *can't* do is attack while stunned or knocked down. S/S can't become immune to stuns, and can only become immune to knockdowns at the cost of a hefty personal damage debuff.

To recap: 2h has better specials, especially in Awakening. The S/S talents do reduced damage, take a long time to fire, and are single-target only. No, 2.4 hits from assault is not better than 2 hits from sunder--each 2h hit is something like 30% more damage than the 1h hits--and it happens in less time, too. Assault is very slow, but like I just said, it's not 2.0 hits vs 2.4 hits, it's 2.6 vs 2.4.

You keep on talking about haste and synergized groups... let's talk about that. Mages provide the best group synergy but benefit the least--weapon buffs and haste don't help them at all. So, the more mages you add to your group, the fewer members are able to benefit. Also, not everyone in a typical group *can* benefit from it. It's pretty much wasted on archers and rogues, for example--they have to lower their dps to benefit from it. I'm assuming a min/maxer will *want* a rogue, since they're the only way to open locks, and can alternatively pump out some of the best single-target damage possible or buff the party, or both. And, of course, your mage needs at least 3 mana/sec to sustain haste, and it's plenty expensive to sustain (60 mana). In short, haste has a lot of downsides, and already means your mage is necessarily doing less casting than he otherwise would.

But let's look at the actual differences for a warrior with a strength bonus of 70. I'm including all stat bonuses on both weapons except crit. I'm rounding to the nearest whole number.

2h starts at 2.5, after haste it's 1.875. Chasind Great Maul: 19.4 dam + 16.5 pen + 1.25*70 (87.5) = ~123 per swing. 66 dps.

1h starts at 1.9, which becomes 1.425. Veshialle: 11.6 dam + 4.0 pen, 1.1*72 (79.2) = 95 per swing. 67 dps.

Say we add 3 weapon runes to each? 138 / 1.875 = 74 dps, (2h) 110 / 1.425 = 77 dps. (1h). That's a whopping 4% increase in damage, assuming a best-case scenario for armor. Any time the 1h user faces someone with high armor--say, 30--and you can subtract all that bonus damage you got for speed. Armor, just like runes, poisons, and other weapon buffs, has a greater impact on the dps of a faster weapon (but negatively).

What did you say?

S/S has WAY higher damage progression due to faster attack speed.

Unless 4% more damage with all grandmaster runes toward the end of the game is WAY higher damage progression, no. Additionally, the 2h warrior is immune to stuns/knockdowns, and the s/s warrior is immune to neither. 33 extra defense... on a dps?  Meh.  I'll take knockdown/stun immunity any day, thank you. I can mostly avoid getting hit, but scattershot and massive attack are not always avoidable. Defense doesn't do jack against massive attacks. And, again, against anything with more than 16 armor is going to start favoring the 2h warrior. Values between 4 and 16 are a wash.

And seriously, did you just mention s/s warriors having 4 specials... but mighty blow is bad?  Hello, shield bash?  I thought, for a second, we were having a serious discussion, but you have pretty much said the s/s talents, including shield bash, are better than the 2h talents.  For DPS.  I'm having a hard time taking you seriously at this point.

Modifié par soteria, 18 avril 2010 - 10:57 .

[traversc]

Critical and mighty blow aren't as bad as everyone makes them out to be, especially against armored targets and especially since they're both free shatters. You're also still ignoring the fact that S&S has 0 AOE, and it gets worse (relatively) in Awakening. Also, you're using a bunch of mutually conflicting arguments.

They're terrible. More terible with haste.

You deride sunder because of haste and other speed buffs, but then you argue that S&S wins on specials, despite the fact that you're looking even worse in that category once we start looking at haste.

Completely wrong and opposite.

Uh, no, you specifically said "they have practically the same modifier." 2h gets 25% more damage from strength, vs 1h attacking ~30% faster. On the other hand, your S&S build is going to have less armor pen and be hitting for less, making it more greatly affected by the flat damage reduction of armor. So in terms of auto-attack, if we want to go that route, you're definitely not "WAY higher."

They DO have practically the same modifier. Also, FYI, veshialle has a modifier of 1.1.  Furthermore, you're still taking the quote WAYYYY out of context. Re-read the post where I asked what he/she meant by "modifier of 1".

No, I'm pretty sure you've been ignoring it up till the time I pointed it out.

You can be pretty sure all you want. It doesn't change the fact that you're wrong. Unless you can read my mind, you're argument here is nothing.

I'm sure it warms your heart to tally up my "errors," but for that to have been an error, you would have to produce a post where you actually mentioned anything in regards to indomitable or S&S's defense. And no, higher defense doesn't do you any good....

So you're saying defense is useless? Got it. If you're going to strawman, then so can I.

To recap: 2h has better specials, especially in Awakening. The S/S talents do reduced damage, take a long time to fire, and are single-target only. No, 2.4 hits from assault is not better than 2 hits from sunder--each 2h hit is something like 30% more damage than the 1h hits--and it happens in less time, too. Assault is very slow, but like I just said, it's not 2.0 hits vs 2.4 hits, it's 2.6 vs 2.4.

1) Were not talking about Awakening. If you want to talk about Awakening, say so, and we can do that. But it is another discussion. 2) Wrong. Sunders do normal damage.

You keep saying S/S talents are terrible. Yes but only relatively speaking. S/S talents are not as big a boost to S/S auto-attack DPS as 2H talents are to 2H auto-attack DPS. But the fact is, S/S talents still wipe the floor with 2H talents.

You keep on talking about haste and synergized groups... let's talk about that. Mages provide the best group synergy but benefit the least--weapon buffs and haste don't help them at all. So, the more mages you add to your group, the fewer members are able to benefit.

Not really. An optimized party will have 2 mages. But for arguments sake, lets say if you take one mage: haste + flame weapon. You still have near max attack speed. You still are getting 20 bonus damage each hit. Also lets not forget that S/S benefits more from Song of Courage. The bottom line: no matter what level of party buffs you run, S/S benefits more.

And seriously, did you just mention s/s warriors having 4 specials...
but mighty blow is bad?  Hello, shield bash? 

Whatever dude.  Okay mb... 3 specials.  That's the best argument you can come up with, isnt it? 

I thought, for a second,
we were having a serious discussion, but you have pretty much said the
s/s talents, including shield bash, are better than the 2h talents.  For
DPS.  I'm having a hard time taking you seriously at this point.

I had a hard time taking ym seriously.  Seriously now, are we in 2nd grade?  Grow up. 

Modifié par traversc, 19 avril 2010 - 12:43 .

[traversc]

Unless 4% more damage with all grandmaster runes toward the end of the game is WAY higher damage progression, no.

Sorry, it's far more than that.

[beancounter501]

^^ Hard to argue with such overpowering logic. Wow, I never realized S&S talents were so amazing. Shield Bash/Pummel/Overpower/Assault > All two hand talents. Shield Bash for 50 crushes Mighty Blow for 175. And assault crushes Two Hand Sweep flat out! Who carres if sweep can hit three or four times or even five times instantly, Assault is better! Just ignore the whole 60% damage.





And we all know how a whooping 30 higher points of defense makes all of the difference in the world. Why as soon as I add 30 points of defense my character becomes unkillable. Same with an extra 10 points of armor. I am thez juggernaultzs.



Not to mention just the pure overpowering Auto Attack ability of a S&S character. Especially combined with 2 mages with Haste and 10 rogues with Song of Courage. I must truly be a noob since my str based S&S Alistar could not match a two hand Oghren in DPS.

[soteria]

They're terrible. More terible with haste.

Completely wrong and opposite.

Well, with convincing arguments like those, what can I say?

They
DO have practically the same modifier. Also, FYI, veshialle has a
modifier of 1.1. Furthermore, you're still taking the quote WAYYYY out
of context. Re-read the post where I asked what he/she meant by
"modifier of 1".

Good thing I used a 1.1 modifier for my math, then.  So your point is...? 

You
can be pretty sure all you want. It doesn't change the fact that you're
wrong. Unless you can read my mind, you're argument here is nothing.

I
don't have to read your mind. You had ignored it in the discussion up
to that point. I didn't say you were unaware, I said you ignored it. Go
ahead and point out where you mentioned it beforehand, please?

1)
Were not talking about Awakening. If you want to talk about Awakening,
say so, and we can do that. But it is another discussion. 2) Wrong.
Sunders do normal damage.

....really? Sunders do normal
damage? Normal for a 1h weapon, right? No? Normal for a 2h weapon? 2h
weapons do the same damage as 1h weapons, right? No...? Oh. I guess
those sunders really *do* deal more damage, don't they? Since for some
reason you seem to be playing dumb, let me point out that a normal 2h
weapon swing is about 30% more damage than a normal 1h swing. So, 2.4
swings for a 1h weapon is NOT more damage than 2.0 swings for a 2h
weapon.

So you're saying defense is useless? Got it. If you're going to strawman, then so can I.

I said defense won't increase your dps, unless your mage is wasting
time healing or you just let people die. Stun/knockdown immunity will
increase your time on target.  Defense won't, unless you just have
trouble controlling aggro for some reason.

You
keep saying S/S talents are terrible. Yes but only relatively speaking.
S/S talents are not as big a boost to S/S auto-attack DPS as 2H talents
are to 2H auto-attack DPS. But the fact is, S/S talents still wipe the
floor with 2H talents.

You make that claim, but thus
far you haven't made any sort of argument to support it. I've
established above that Sunder Arms > Assault (like, more than twice
as good). Sunder Armor > Shield Pummel--they both strike twice, and
the 2h weapon deals more damage with each hit in about the same time.
Mighty Blow >>> Shield Bash. 2h weapon sweep > Overpower.

Not
really. An optimized party will have 2 mages. But for arguments sake,
lets say if you take one mage: haste + flame weapon. You still have
near max attack speed. You still are getting 20 bonus damage each hit.
Also lets not forget that S/S benefits more from Song of Courage. The
bottom line: no matter what level of party buffs you run, S/S benefits
more.

20 damage per hit with flame weapons? I don't
think I've seen more than 11 or so in Origins, unless you're stacking
hexes or something. Does S/S benefit more from weapon buffs? Sure, I've
already said as much, and shown it with math. Does S/S scale way more
awesomely better and mop the floor with 2h? Absolutely not, especially
not against highly armored targets and especially not in any situation
involving stuns or knockdowns.

Whatever dude. Okay mb... 3 specials. That's the best argument you can come up with, isnt it?

Actually,
it's the worst one I could come up with. You keep on making these
ludicrous statements, and it really brings down the quality of your
argument. Except, you haven't really made arguments so much as stated
hyperbole as fact.

I had a hard time taking ym seriously. Seriously now, are we in 2nd grade? Grow up.

Sorry,
what is ym? It really is hard to take you seriously when you just make
outrageous claims and don't even attempt to back them up. Seriously,
you jump all over my case for forgetting the cooldown of an ability,
and then roll your eyes when I point out your mistakes? If you think
that means I need to grow up, I'd like to introduce you to Kettle.

Sorry, it's far more than that.

I
don't want your apology, I want your proof, if indeed you have any. 
Oh, and since you said that the difference between 1.1 and 1.25 is practically nothing, I expect to see some BIG numbers.  I mean, even 30 or 40% more damage would only be, like, twice of practically nothing.

Modifié par soteria, 19 avril 2010 - 02:34 .

[mosspit]

traversc wrote...

Meanwhile, all 4 of S/S talents have a recharge of 20.  So no, you're won't be out-spamming a S/S, if S/S actually cared to spam (which it doesn't need to).

For the 2nd time, not ALL of the S/S talents have 20s. Go check up on overpower and assault. Yes, an SnS will be out-spam by a 2Her in terms in terms of dmg and frequency.

No I don't ignore that fact (error #3).  The argument is easily countered by the fact
that S/S has easily 30-40 more defense than 2H as well as more armor.  You know what else makes a significant
difference in DPS?  Not taking damage so
your mages can focus nuking rather than healing your ass.

Yes. SnS has better def and slightly better armour. Is it surprising? But are we discussing about tanking or dps? Suppose we go at it, you are also discounting the fact that 2H has better secondary effects attached to their talents. 2H sweep alone is an AoE dmg knockdown (whose cd at least matches the cd of any of the shield talents). This can offer another form of dmg mitigation.

But the fact is, S/S talents still wipe the floor with 2H talents.

In comparing solely on talents effectiveness, beancounter have proved (at least to me) otherwise based on considering what all  4 (or 3) talents does. And he did not write off evey talent completely. You, on the other hand, just bashed MB and CS while ignoring their (abeit somewhat situational) merits.

Just look at 2H's talents. They scream offensive-oriented. Even the arguably tank-orientated indomitable adds 1 to dmg, pitiful but still it exists. SnS are mixed. There are just about as many offensive talents as there are defensive ones, and I am being generous.

I had a hard time taking ym seriously. Seriously now, are we in 2nd grade?  Grow up. 

You shd heed your own advice.

Modifié par mosspit, 19 avril 2010 - 02:22 .

[soteria]

In comparing solely on talents effectiveness, beancounter have proved (at least to me) otherwise based on considering what all 4 (or 3) talents does. And he did not write off evey talent completely. You, on the other hand, just bashed MB and CS while ignoring their (abeit somewhat situational) merits.

Be careful, adopting a moderate and realistic stance could be taken as a sign of weakness. You have to be ruthless! Exaggerate every enemy error, give no ground, admit to nothing!

[Phaelducan]

I recommend just letting it go. Clearly he/she is misinformed, or trolling. Either way, the horse is dead.

[mosspit]

soteria wrote...

Be careful, adopting a moderate and realistic stance could be taken as a sign of weakness. You have to be ruthless! Exaggerate every enemy error, give no ground, admit to nothing!

Lol! I can try but seriously i sucked at ruthless. But I am pretty ok at sarcasm. Maybe i do that instead.

@Phaelducan: You are right. But in the same light, I think (or at least I hope) none of the posters are too personal about it. Clearly, the fact that the horse being dead is besides the point =)

[traversc]

For the 2nd time, not ALL of the S/S talents have 20s. Go check up on overpower and assault. Yes, an SnS will be out-spam by a 2Her in terms in terms of dmg and frequency.

I just checked in game and also on wiki. All S/S talents have 20s recharge.

Yes. SnS has better def and slightly better armour. Is it surprising? But are we discussing about tanking or dps? Suppose we go at it, you are also discounting the fact that 2H has better secondary effects attached to their talents. 2H sweep alone is an AoE dmg knockdown (whose cd at least matches the cd of any of the shield talents). This can offer another form of dmg mitigation.

Are you touched? seriously, WTF. The only reason I brought up defense was because someone brought up indomitable. Both mitigate shutdown. Both mitigate damage which helps party members focus less on defense and more on offense.

In comparing solely on talents effectiveness, beancounter have proved (at least to me) otherwise based on considering what all 4 (or 3) talents does. And he did not write off evey talent completely. You, on the other hand, just bashed MB and CS while ignoring their (abeit somewhat situational) merits.

You have a somewhat shoddy definition of "prove." Also, you really just don't understand math. Please try addressing my arguments. Seriously... CS has no almost effect DPS-wise due to recharge of 60. Furthermore, it does less DPS than auto-attack under BT/Haste.

Modifié par traversc, 19 avril 2010 - 03:04 .

[traversc]

@Soteria: Both of us, fail post sniping ftl. Needless to say, I disagree with everything you've said.  I also don't care to win a popularity contest, so why don't we cut the playground antics, OK?

There is a bad tendency on this board to confuse a fact that one does not like with an opinion. It is an empirical fact that 2H is the worst DPS. Prove that you are actually here to debate and not win a popularity contest.

Auto-attack DPS is clearly won by sword/shield. (You already admitted this point, thankfully, or I'd say you were a lost cause) Although it is by a wider margin than you think. Post your math and I will post mine. PS: if you think I can't do a proper damage calc, you are sadly mistaken. Check my wiki page: http://dragonage.wik...gue_Maximum_DPS

Your entire argument rests on the idea that 2H attack talents greatly outclass sword/shield attack talents, which tbh is bogus, but ambiguous enough that you can make radical conjectures and still look reasonable.

Let's end this.

Are you willing to spend a few minutes to put your money where your mouth is? I wrote a script that will allow us to answer the question definitely with no room for ambiguity:

http://www.dragonage...ile.php?id=1072

http://www.anewmorni...tives-to-fraps/

What I need from you:

2 minutes of the best DPS you can muster, (plus 30 seconds of auto-attacking for normalizing purposes). If you need extra stamina, just cheat, IDC. (Don't bother using Sweep, since we can add the AoE effct to the calculations manually).

I assume you will apply:

1) Sunder #1 120/10 = 11-12 times
2) Sunder #2 120/20 = 6 times
3) Critical 2 times
4) mighty 4 times

But it is up to you. Hold companions away so they don't interfere. Record for 2.5 minutes and post on youtube. In the two minutes, write down the number of total hits (including hits by talents) and the number of times you use each talent.

You will have to do this twice, since there are two cases we are interested in having to deal with attack speed:

1) Just Blood Thirst. Use no outside attack speed buffs.

2) Blood Thirst + 1x Haste.

Given this information, we can calculate definitively which weapon style does more DPS definitively and with zero room for ambiguity.

Modifié par traversc, 19 avril 2010 - 03:07 .

[Fish_Eye_McGee]

This turned into a discussion of whether two-handed or sword and shield does more damage. Was that really the question? Sword and shield can make a decent DPS, just follow the advice that some have said (berserker spec, focusing mainly on strength.)

On the subject, two-handed warriors will likely do more damage. The many talents they have will probably give them an advantage. Does that mean DPS sword and shield is that much worse? Not really. I can't imagine it being a large difference in damage, and more defense means less heals (in theory) while one can still do good damage.

Modifié par Fish_Eye_McGee, 19 avril 2010 - 03:21 .

[mosspit]

traversc wrote...
I just checked in game and also on wiki. All S/S talents have 20s recharge.

Bummer thats my error #1.

Are you touched? seriously, WTF. The only reason I brought up defense was because someone brought up indomitable. Both mitigate shutdown. Both mitigate damage which helps party members focus less on defense and more on offense.

Ok so to response to digression is to apply further digression. Got it.

You have a somewhat shoddy definition of "prove." Also, you really just don't understand math. Please try addressing my arguments. Seriously... CS has no almost effect DPS-wise due to recharge of 60. Furthermore, it does less DPS than auto-attack under BT/Haste.

Oh. Your answer to my qn of "why keep bashing CS and MB?" is to keep bashing it. Got it too. Yes I don't understand math the way you do. Noob me!

[traversc]

mosspit wrote...
Oh. Your answer to my qn of "why keep bashing CS and MB?" is to keep bashing it. Got it too. Yes I don't understand math the way you do. Noob me!

Me: CS and MB suck because A and B.   
You: no it doesn't suck.  Don't bash it. 
Me: Yes it does suck, and to reiterate, A and B. 
You: stop bashing it!!1 :*(

If you want to get a decent response, tell me why you think A and B are wrong. 

Ok so to response to digression is to apply further digression. Got it.

Yes.  I'm not going to let such a one-sided argument go unanswered. 

Modifié par traversc, 19 avril 2010 - 04:55 .

[mosspit]

traversc wrote...
Me: CS and MB suck because A and B.   
You: no it doesn't suck.  Don't bash it. 
Me: Yes it does suck, and to reiterate, A and B. 
You: stop bashing it!!1 :*(

If you want to get a decent response, tell me why you think A and B are wrong. 

I already acknowledged the fact that CS and MB are weak in comparsion in my opinion. Go ahead you can quote me. And I did not choose to include effects like destroyer and the 50%stun. What I wanted to ask was why are you hang up on the both of them, while ignoring other talents. What was dicussed by bean was bringing all talents to the table. I was comparing based on that too. The impression I got from you is just (mostly) saying CS MB is bad.

Yes.  I'm not going to let such a one-sided argument go unanswered.

And soteria tried to explain that indomitable is not dmg mitigation but status mitigation which helps with the maintaining of uninterrupted dmg output by not getting stunned or kd. I am not denying  SnS can be kd-immune. I am saying that stun effects are abundant enough to pose a significant deterance to dps.

[soteria]

@Soteria: Both of us, fail post sniping ftl. Needless to say, I disagree with everything you've said. I also don't care to win a popularity contest, so why don't we cut the playground antics, OK?

There is a bad tendency on this board to confuse a fact that one does not like with an opinion. It is an empirical fact that 2H is the worst DPS. Prove that you are actually here to debate and not win a popularity contest.

Not sure what you're talking about by a popularity contest.  Unless you're complaining about my sarcasm?  You're the one making sweeping statements and not actually posting any arguments. Really--all you've done is point out things anyone can learn from the wiki if they take the time, such as the cooldowns of abilities and the modifiers on weapons. You have yet to actually argue your case. No, forcefully stating your position and telling people they're wrong isn't arguing your case.

You accuse Mosspit of doing exactly what you're doing. In response to any argument about specials, your answer is "Haste!! and, double haste!" without anything else. In other words, your "A and B" are "extra attack speed". We've pointed out a number of things mighty blow/critical strike are good for. Any time you're not hasted, for starters. Any time you want to shatter something, stun the enemy, deal burst damage, or stop a grab. Being able to autoattack + MB to kill someone is not worthless, and is a faster kill than the s/s warrior can accomplish. They're faster at shattering than anything the S/S warrior can do as well, which is more important than you might think--one scattershot and the S/S warrior just lost his window of opportunity for the shatter.

Also, since when did blood thirst become mandatory or whatever? It's paid DLC. And what's the deal with this "It HAS to be an 'optimized' group or you suck"? If S/S is really vastly superior like you've claimed, you don't need the optimized group.

Are you touched? seriously, WTF. The only reason I brought up defense was because someone brought up indomitable. Both mitigate shutdown. Both mitigate damage which helps party members focus less on defense and more on offense.

Indomitable only indirectly mitigates damage, via not losing your (paltry) dexterity bonus to defense by getting knocked down. Defense mitigates damage, but only if you have aggro. As I pointed out, if you know how to use a tank, defense is of minor value on anything but a tank. You keep on talking about min/max builds and groups, so why are you pretending defense would be *that* important to a 2h warrior? It's a great stat, but I don't need it on every character, and again, unless you're dying, defense doesn't mitigate "shutdown." Go fight a dragon or an ogre and come back and tell me how much defense helped you out.

Auto-attack DPS is clearly won by sword/shield. (You already admitted this point, thankfully, or I'd say you were a lost cause) Although it is by a wider margin than you think. Post your math and I will post mine. PS: if you think I can't do a proper damage calc, you are sadly mistaken. Check my wiki page:

I already posted my math. Go ahead, and please, don't make me ask again. I came up with a 4% advantage to the S/S warrior... and you know, it's funny, because somehow you remembered that I had said that but forgot the math that led to that conclusion. Cute selective memory you have going on there.

Your entire argument rests on the idea that 2H attack talents greatly outclass sword/shield attack talents, which tbh is bogus, but ambiguous enough that you can make radical conjectures and still look reasonable.

No, my entire argument is that 2h deals decent damage with good utility, and no, S/S does not vastly outdamage the 2h warrior. In optimal conditions for the S/S warrior, the S/S warrior slightly pulls ahead--I posted 4% in the conditions earlier, I'd say 4-10% is a realistic range. On the other hand, you say S/S vastly outperforms the 2h warrior, so I expect your math to show some impressive numbers.

In conditions where both warriors are using specials, well, yes, I think the 2h warriors are superior, and there's nothing ambiguous about that. I even posted some numbers (but you've been studiously ignoring anything involving numbers to date). Saying that 2h weapons deal more damage, ergo 2h specials deal more damage per swing is not "conjecture." Inc post saying "I wasn't ignoring it, what, you think you can read my mind?"

Let's end this.

Are you willing to spend a few minutes to put your money where your mouth is? I wrote a script that will allow us to answer the question definitely with no room for ambiguity:

I already posted my math for autoattacks, and, as you have yet to even attempt to address it, I'm satisfied with how that stands. Do the legwork yourself; why should I run your experiment for you, wasting my time and bandwidth? I'll respond when I see math and numbers.

Modifié par soteria, 19 avril 2010 - 01:41 .

[Random70]

Okay, some actual real Talent-Spam numbers here...

L24 HN Templar / Berserker
Armor: Evon + Diligence, Honnleath
Jewels: Anduril, Spellward, Key, Lifegiver
Weapons: Veshaille + Duncan, CGM (no runes on either)
Stats w/ gear:
S/S: 97 Str, 32 Dex, 121 Att, 100 Def,  93.9 'On-Screen' damage w/ Berserk + Shield Defense
2H: 103 Str, 24 Dex, 115 Att, 60 Def, 104.5 'On-Screen' damage w/ Berserk, Indomitable, Powerful Swings
Enemies: First 3 darkspawn that attack as soon as you arrive at Ostagar for RtO. Note that these are L15 Critters so Armor Penetration is probably not a factor. Ran all numbers eight times. Obviously a small sample size but should be sufficient to give an idea.

Bash: High 99, Low 75, Avg 85.75
Pummel: High 302, Low 205, Avg 254.25
Overpower: High 207, Low 168, Avg 189
Assault: High 260, Low 196, Avg 227.63

Mighty Blow: High 178, Low 144, Avg 155.75 (Critical Strike is similar)
Sunder Arms: High 300, Low 216, Avg 250.63
Sunder Armor: High 274, Low 212, Avg 235.13

Notes:

* I ran both sunders as I knew Sunder Arms could score crits but couldn't recall if Sunder Armor had this capability. It does.

* The numbers for Mighty Blow seemed a little lower than I expected until I recalled that I was using Cailan's Gloves during my 2H Solo run.

* To keep a level playing field I did not use Precise Striking for this test.

* I ran both characters further into the map solo to directly compare survivability. The extra defense on the S/S was nearly invisible. A defense rating of 100 is still well within 'get hit all the damned time' territory. On the other hand, as expected, the lack of Indomitable was immediately painfully obvious.

* I did not experiment with Blood Thirst. I mostly play solo these days. Unless you enjoy spamming health pots (I don't) Blood Thirst is not feasible for a STR based soloist, outside of a very specific setup. In any case I was testing talents not auto attacks.

* This small head to head test does not really show the 2H in the best light. Armor penetration was a non-factor here as was 2H Sweep. Stunning Blows and Destroyer did not come into play. As mentioned previously, Precise Striking was not used.  This would benefit the 2H more in that 1) the additional crit chance would show a larger multiplicitive effect on the higher base damage and 2) the drawback of PS (slower auto attack) has no effect on a 2H, who can happily spam talents indefinitely as long as they kill somebody occasionally for a stamina boost from Death Blow. A S/S, conversely, will quickly exhaust their talent bar and will have to resort to auto attack while they cooldown, making PS...sub-optimal.

* I was quite impressed with the damage done by the S/S talents. I was not impressed by getting knocked down and stunned consistantly.

* As to who has the better auto attack, I'll answer that one: DW

Modifié par Random70, 19 avril 2010 - 10:31 .

[Fish_Eye_McGee]

 I decided to test some of this using information found on the DAO Wiki. This will not be exactly precise and it will use some averages, but that shouldn't make a big difference. Excuse me if some math is wrong, it's late 

Both of them will haver Berserk on, and 2H will have Indomitable on since it seems to be the favored sustained. They will also both have Starfang equipped. To keep it equal, they'll both have 50 strength.

Overpower-
(11.90 + 25 + 8)*2 + (11.90 + 25 + 8)*1.5= (89.8) + (67.35)= 157.15

Shield Pummel-
(11.90 + 25 + 8)*3= 134.7

Shield Bash-
11.90 + 25 + 8 = 44.9

Critical Strike-
(18.70 + 29.5625 + 9)*1.5= (57.2625)*1.5= 85.89375

Sunder Arms-
(18.70 + 29.5625 + 9)*2= 114.525 (Plus a penalty to enemy attack)

Again, this could be flawed and I'm unsure if Berserk or Indomitable even apply to talents. I don't feel like testing it this late 

[beancounter501]

@Fish: Berserker and Indomitable & Bravery Dmg all applies to Talents. Only Weapon Runes do not fire during talents. Also, your calculations are off because Shield Pummel is a regular attack followed by two shield attacks, and Overpower is three straight shield attacks. The strength modifier on the shield attacks for bash/pummel is between .5 and 1 after Shield Mastery and for Overpower it is between .25 and .5. But each is a critical hit on Overpower. The base damage for a shield attack is between 1 and 5 points. However, due to a bug in overpower the base damage will actually drop to -4 to 0 once you get Shield Mastery.



@ Random: Confirms what I have seen. Shield Pummel is the best S&S Talent after you get Shield Mastery. 3 Hits Plus a Stun. In the defense of S&S the Overpower is the best shatter and Grab breaker in the game. Since it gives three critical strikes in a Row. You can frequently shatter yellow critters with it. Using Shield Bash is actually a drop in your DPS, but still effective due to the knockdown. Assault is just lackluster. The game says taking Shield Master will decrease the 40% penalty, but it does not. It simply maximizes your weapon dmg, which amounts to a couple of points per hit after reducing the dmg to 60%.



When it comes to Warrior DPS, the big AOE attacks is where all the dmg comes from. Whirlwind, 2 Hand Sweep, Scattershot and to a lesser degree Dual Sweep all generate massive numbers. Running into a crowd solo, activate Perfect Striking, then 2 Hand Sweep and then Disengage when the rest of the team shows up is extremely powerful. Pulling a 2 Hand Sweep against 4 or 5 critters can easily generate 400 to 600 points of dmg in the late game. And you can do it every 20 seconds.



S&S is the only class in the game that does not have a big AOE dmg attack and it really hurts there DPS. Not to mention they only have 4 activated talents when the other warriors have 6. And a 20 second cooldown can feel like forever.

[Fish_Eye_McGee]

beancounter501 wrote...

@Fish: Berserker and Indomitable & Bravery Dmg all applies to Talents. Only Weapon Runes do not fire during talents. Also, your calculations are off because Shield Pummel is a regular attack followed by two shield attacks, and Overpower is three straight shield attacks. The strength modifier on the shield attacks for bash/pummel is between .5 and 1 after Shield Mastery and for Overpower it is between .25 and .5. But each is a critical hit on Overpower. The base damage for a shield attack is between 1 and 5 points. However, due to a bug in overpower the base damage will actually drop to -4 to 0 once you get Shield Mastery.

The shield I used to calculate is Fade Wall which has the same modifier as a longsword. Didn't I do my calculations assuming you didn't have Shield Mastery, though? 

On dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Overpower and dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Shield_Pummel they say normal combat damage, so I assumed it meant regular damage like with a longsword. I can see how that could be wrong. 

So how do you get the damage a shield would do?

[beancounter501]

In brief the calculations goes: Base Weapon Dmg + (Weapon Modifier) * (Attribute Modifier) * (Attribute) + Character Dmg Boosts (Like Berserk, Bravery, Base Level Dmg) + Weapon Enhancements like Enchantment/Poison



The Weapon Modifier is the number you see when you look at Weapon. For Shield/Longswords it is 1, Great Swords/Axes it is 1.1 and Mauls are 1.25. The Attribute Modifier is a range that depends on your weapon style. The range is a random number. Dual Welding has an attribute modifier between .25 and .5. The same applies to regular shield attacks. Except once you get Shield Mastery the modifier is doubled for Bash/Pummel. Overpower always stays at .25 to .5. For a sword attack from a S&S character or a two hand character the modifier is between .5 and .75.



The Attribute is simply the primary stat for that weapon -10. Or Strength - 10 in most cases. Daggers/Bows it is (dex -10 + Str - 10) /2. Which is the primary reason why bow damage is so weak in this game.

[Fish_Eye_McGee]

beancounter501 wrote...

In brief the calculations goes: Base Weapon Dmg + (Weapon Modifier) * (Attribute Modifier) * (Attribute) + Character Dmg Boosts (Like Berserk, Bravery, Base Level Dmg) + Weapon Enhancements like Enchantment/Poison

The Weapon Modifier is the number you see when you look at Weapon. For Shield/Longswords it is 1, Great Swords/Axes it is 1.1 and Mauls are 1.25. The Attribute Modifier is a range that depends on your weapon style. The range is a random number. Dual Welding has an attribute modifier between .25 and .5. The same applies to regular shield attacks. Except once you get Shield Mastery the modifier is doubled for Bash/Pummel. Overpower always stays at .25 to .5. For a sword attack from a S&S character or a two hand character the modifier is between .5 and .75.

The Attribute is simply the primary stat for that weapon -10. Or Strength - 10 in most cases. Daggers/Bows it is (dex -10 + Str - 10) /2. Which is the primary reason why bow damage is so weak in this game.

I get that, that's where I got my calculations from. So what did I get wrong?

A side note, since it's between .5 and .75 I just multiplied it by .625 (average)