183 réponses à ce sujet

[beancounter501]

Assuming a Str of 50 Overpower would be:(Excluding Berserk & Level Dmg Mod)



Base Shield Dmg: 1 to 5 = Avg 3 (It looked like you were taking Starfangs Dmg which is incorrect. It uses the shield Dmg)



Attribute modifier: Range .25 to .5, Avg .375 * (50 - 10) * 1 (Weapon Modifier)= 15



Each hit is a critical so (base Shield of 3 + Attribute Mod of 15) * 1.5 = 27

There are three attacks so 27 * 3 = 81 dmg

[mosspit]

@Random70 - Nice test. Admittedly I did not expect the single target dps from both SnS and 2Her to be that close in comparison. I assume that Shield Def was used as you needed a sustain and Shield Wall would lower dps.

[Fish_Eye_McGee]

Got it. I did use Starfang's damage, so I see what you mean. However, it can still be seen how close the two are when compared.

[Hulk Hsieh]

beancounter501 wrote...
When it comes to Warrior DPS, the big AOE attacks is where all the dmg comes from. Whirlwind, 2 Hand Sweep, Scattershot and to a lesser degree Dual Sweep all generate massive numbers. Running into a crowd solo, activate Perfect Striking, then 2 Hand Sweep and then Disengage when the rest of the team shows up is extremely powerful. Pulling a 2 Hand Sweep against 4 or 5 critters can easily generate 400 to 600 points of dmg in the late game. And you can do it every 20 seconds.

S&S is the only class in the game that does not have a big AOE dmg attack and it really hurts there DPS. Not to mention they only have 4 activated talents when the other warriors have 6. And a 20 second cooldown can feel like forever.

Exactly.

When both utilizd as well as possible, the build with powerful AOE will always out-damage the build without it.
And S/S is the underdog here.

[beancounter501]

They may seem closer then they actually are, if you just look at a direct one to one comparion. However, in 20 seconds a Two hander should be able to launch 2 Sunder Arms, 1 Sunder Armor, 1 Mighty Blow and 1 Critical Strike. Using Random70 numbers that is 1,060 in dmg. A S&S can launch one of each for 755 dmg. That is 40% more dmg from talent spam. And that is really before Armor Penetration, since the shield specific attacks have almost no AP. I don't think Randoms test subjects were really heavily armored targets. But the big difference really comes when you factor in 2 Hand Sweep, which really jacks up the DPS. Or you start loosing attacks because you are stunned/knockdown.



The best way to test it is to run a str based two hand warrior with a str based S&S. I did that my whole last game, and the 2 Hand Warrior was much more effective.

[beancounter501]

Indomitable can also have a really big impact on your DPS. Lets say a Two hand Warrior can average 70 DPS and sustain it for over 20 seconds. That will come up to 1400 points of dmg. If a S&S or Dual weld is Stunned or Knocked down once for three seconds he would have to do more then 20% avg DPS to catch up. That would be 84 DPS over 17 seconds = 1,428.



I don't know about you guys, but once Archers start chain scatter shotting or Orges start jumping you are going to get knocked down/stunned a lot more then just once over 20 seconds. Indomitable is extremely valuable.

[Fish_Eye_McGee]

I guess. But that would require a lot of willpower. Sure hypothetically they can do that. I'm not saying the s&s could do more damage (2h sweep is just too useful), I just don't think it's that much worse.

[Hulk Hsieh]

Well, the game throws so many minions at us that it is quite unsatifying if the main DPS character doesn't have AOE to mow them down. You can always have a mage for that though.

[mosspit]

@Fish_Eye_McGee - Not exactly. I played through talents spammers and found that the best way to sustain the spam is to maximise stamina recovery (via Deathblow and to a less extent stamin regen from items). Willpower is good for increasing stam pool to cater for more sustains, but I find that there seem to be always items to fill in place of willpower. My opinion ofc.

Edit: I add another plus to 2H sweep as this really helps with stam recovery via deathblow. After a good Perfect Striked 2H sweep, most white mobs can be killed by a atk + sunder. 2H talents are also stam-cost efficient that further supports talent spam.

Modifié par mosspit, 19 avril 2010 - 04:12 .

[Fish_Eye_McGee]

290 is a lot of stamina. I find it hard to believe you can regularly do this in battles without quite a few points into willpower.

[mosspit]

Fish_Eye_McGee wrote...

290 is a lot of stamina. I find it hard to believe you can regularly do this in battles without quite a few points into willpower.

It is. And the fact that Deathblow recovers 50 per kill. A successful deathblow proc will equal to ~2sunders. After a 2H sweep, it is not unthinkable to kill 1 enemy per talent. However, there are problems if the kills are stolen. To help with stam regen, later patches increased stam regen at low stam levels which is significant. However you look at it, willpower leads to a bigger stam pool but the extra talents spammable is pretty static.

Modifié par mosspit, 19 avril 2010 - 04:20 .

[beancounter501]

Willpower is optional, and not very effective. At Level 21 a Warriors Base stamina should be 200 without a single point into willpower. Chasined Maul & Evon's Armor adds another 100 points of stamina. Andruils Blessing + Chasined Maul + Evon + Wade's Armor will give you a base stamina regen of 6 pts every 2 seconds. But Deathblow is the real boost here. It gives 20% of your targets initial health back as Stamina. Kill a 300 HP Grunt and you will get back 60 stamina. And Dragon Age loves to to give massive health levels to enemy targets!



So, in a hypothetical fight that lasts 60 seconds you can easily get access to over 700 points of stamina. Base 200 + Gear 100 + Stamina Regen 180 + killing 4 Grunts 240 = 720 Stamina. And really killing 4 Grunts with 300 HP is super easy over 60 seconds. You are doing something wrong if your two hand warrior can only kill 4 guys. But like Mosspit said, you have to watch out for other party members stealing your kills! Especially archers and mages. Do not set your archers tactics to attack whoever your two hand warrior is fighting!



The other thing you have to watch out for is fatigue. Getting fatigue levels over 20% is going to crush your ability to spam talents. Once you hit a fatigue level of 50% those talents that used to cost 700 points now cost over 1,000 stamina!

[Random70]

beancounter501 wrote...
They may seem closer then they actually are, if you just look at a direct one to one comparion. However, in 20 seconds a Two hander should be able to launch 2 Sunder Arms, 1 Sunder Armor, 1 Mighty Blow and 1 Critical Strike. Using Random70 numbers that is 1,060 in dmg. A S&S can launch one of each for 755 dmg. That is 40% more dmg from talent spam. And that is really before Armor Penetration, since the shield specific attacks have almost no AP. I don't think Randoms test subjects were really heavily armored targets. But the big difference really comes when you factor in 2 Hand Sweep, which really jacks up the DPS. Or you start loosing attacks because you are stunned/knockdown.

^ Nice summary.

beancounter501 wrote...
The best way to test it is to run a str based two hand warrior with a str based S&S. I did that my whole last game, and the 2 Hand Warrior was much more effective.

Yeah, yeah, whatever...but how many copies of Haste / SoC / Blood Thirst did you have running?

Sorry, couldn't resist. Over the last page or so this thread has suffered from an over abundance of actual data and a disturbing lack of snarkiness.

Modifié par Random70, 19 avril 2010 - 06:07 .

[traversc]

You accuse Mosspit of doing exactly what you're doing. In response to any argument about specials, your answer is "Haste!! and, double haste!" without anything else. In other words, your "A and B" are "extra attack speed".

No, that was not my argument. Neither is "extra attack speed" both of A and B. Also, you get "extra attack speed" from Blood Thirst, regardless of whether your mage has haste.

I already posted my math. Go ahead, and please, don't make me ask again. I came up with a 4% advantage to the S/S warrior... and you know, it's funny, because somehow you remembered that I had said that but forgot the math that led to that conclusion. Cute selective memory you have going on there.

Can you post a link to this? Because I have not seen it in this thread. What I have seen is this:

2h starts at 2.5, after haste it's 1.875. Chasind Great Maul: 19.4 dam + 16.5 pen + 1.25*70 (87.5) = ~123 per swing. 66 dps.

1h starts at 1.9, which becomes 1.425. Veshialle: 11.6 dam + 4.0 pen, 1.1*72 (79.2) = 95 per swing. 67 dps.

Say we add 3 weapon runes to each? 138 / 1.875 = 74 dps, (2h) 110 / 1.425 = 77 dps. (1h). That's a whopping 4%


1) This is not a full DPS calc. You don't include bonus damage or crits.

2) It is incorrect to add the full amount of AP. Almost everything has ~10 or less armor, which is furthermore averaged to 85% of the whole value in the game code. Even against an ogre, you will not get the full benefit of 16.5 AP. (In fact, you could probably count the number of enemies you would - on one hand)

 Do the legwork yourself; why should I run your experiment for you, wasting my time and bandwidth? I'll respond when I see math and numbers.

The reason I ask is because if I do it, I'm almost positive someone will complain that I'm not doing it right, not timing attacks properly or somehow or otherwise biasing the results etc. If you do it, then I can't be accused of not using 2H properly.

So again, I ask you: Are you willing to spend a few minutes to put your money where your mouth is? Or would you rather continue this pointless argument for hours and days where either side has only major hand-waving and no empirical evidence?

Modifié par traversc, 19 avril 2010 - 06:39 .

[traversc]

beancounter501 wrote...

They may seem closer then they actually are, if you just look at a direct one to one comparion. However, in 20 seconds a Two hander should be able to launch 2 Sunder Arms, 1 Sunder Armor, 1 Mighty Blow and 1 Critical Strike. Using Random70 numbers that is 1,060 in dmg. A S&S can launch one of each for 755 dmg.

That's not a fair comparison for two reasons:

1) Biased time interval.  Let's try with 40 seconds.

2)  Obviously 5 is a bigger number than 3.  How about factoring in the extra time needed to pull off 2 more attack skills?  You can do this by adding in auto-attack DPS in the extra time S/S gets. 

Modifié par traversc, 19 avril 2010 - 06:53 .

[beancounter501]

I actually counted Shield Bash as in attack, so it is a 5 to 4 comparison. But fair enough we will through in some auto attacks to match.



OK, lets do 40 seconds - like you said. That is kind of a poor point, since neither one is going to be able to pull the 20 second cooldown talents a third time. 45 is actually a better point talent wise, but I will run it at 40.



In 40 Seconds a 2 hander can do:



Sunder Arms x4

Sunder Armor x 2

Mighty Blow x 2

Critical Strike x 1

Sweep x 2

A total of 11 talents.



In 40 Seconds a S&S can do

Shield Bash x2

Shield Pummel x2

Overpower x 2

Assault x 2

Lets throw in an extra 3 auto attacks like you requested to bring it up to 11 attacks.



Since Random70 never included a Sweep in his numbers, lets be REALLY generous to the S&S guy and say he can only connect with 2 people on each Sweep. So damage wise it does the same amount of dmg as a Sunder Arms. Even though in reality you should be able to connect with 3 to 5 people and double that dmg.



2 Hand Dmg from Talents: 2,435

S&S Talent Dmg: 1,512 + 3 Auto Attacks * 93 = 1,794



You are still down over 600 points of dmg. And that was with a gimp two hand sweep. Not to mention that is a really low mighty blow hit.

[traversc]

beancounter501 wrote...

I actually counted Shield Bash as in attack, so it is a 5 to 4 comparison. But fair enough we will through in some auto attacks to match.

OK, lets do 40 seconds - like you said. That is kind of a poor point, since neither one is going to be able to pull the 20 second cooldown talents a third time. 45 is actually a better point talent wise, but I will run it at 40.

In 40 Seconds a 2 hander can do:

Sunder Arms x4
Sunder Armor x 2
Mighty Blow x 2
Critical Strike x 1
Sweep x 2
A total of 11 talents.

In 40 Seconds a S&S can do
Shield Bash x2
Shield Pummel x2
Overpower x 2
Assault x 2
Lets throw in an extra 3 auto attacks like you requested to bring it up to 11 attacks.

Since Random70 never included a Sweep in his numbers, lets be REALLY generous to the S&S guy and say he can only connect with 2 people on each Sweep. So damage wise it does the same amount of dmg as a Sunder Arms. Even though in reality you should be able to connect with 3 to 5 people and double that dmg.

2 Hand Dmg from Talents: 2,435
S&S Talent Dmg: 1,512 + 3 Auto Attacks * 93 = 1,794

You are still down over 600 points of dmg. And that was with a gimp two hand sweep. Not to mention that is a really low mighty blow hit.

First, shield bash does not add DPS compared to auto-attack, so there is no point in using it. So S&S talents damage is 1,346. The difference is now 11 attack talents vs 6.

Let's assume talents take the same time to complete.* That gives S/S 2.55*5 seconds of auto-attack.** S/S interval is 1.52 (8.39 auto-attacks) with Blood Thirst.

The numbers then become:
2 Hand Talent Spam: 2,435
S&S with BT : 1,512 + 8.39 Auto Attacks * 93 = 2126.3

Much less of a difference. But what happens when you add haste to the mix? S/S interval becomes 1.055 (12.09) with BT/Haste.

S&S with BT : 1,512 + 8.39 Auto Attacks * 93 = 2470.4

But even IF the numers for 2H do turn out to be bigger, you are still not proving that 2H has better DPS. You are proving that 2H has better spike, which is a different issue. If you want to prove 2H has better DPS, see below.


*I honestly have no idea whether or not this is true. But ambiguity CAN be eliminated if someone would take the few minutes I've requested, instead of spending hours hand-waving *hint* social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/96/index/2292872/2#2333238

**If you think the additional time is less, SHOW it, don't just say it. See above.

[Fish_Eye_McGee]

He's right; if he does it, no matter what happens he will have done it wrong. That's why someone on the two-handed side has to do it.

[beancounter501]

But with the video fight it is pretty easy to come up with results that are really skewed to one side. How about the Ser Cauthorn fight? The S&S character would spend 90% of the time stunned. Or against an Orge - again he would be stunned/knocked down all the time. How about against Branka and the Golems? Again the results would be really skewed to a Two Hander with Indomitable and Shattering Blows. Or against masses of Skeletons - again two hand sweep and shattering blows would make it a blow away competition.



And the S&S character would choose a battle where the targets had low armor and no special knockdown/stun attacks. Some fight where the player fights streams of trash mobs like Genlocks and his sword would be loaded down with Silverite Runes and he would auto attack his way to victory. Or against a single Revernant and your Sword would be loaded down with Cold Iron Runes. Sorry, I don't see how one video can really prove anything.



@Random70 - That was a playthrough with the PC being a Caster Mage, Wynne, Alistar and Oghren. No SoC, blood thirst or Haste was used.

[Tirigon]

I haven´t run any tests, but from the experience of 60 hours with 2h and S/S in the party I have to say that, in vanilla, I find S/S actually stronger in terms of singletarget-DPS.



However, there is a nice little mod (called better2handed or sth like that) which improves 2h slightly, but without making it OP, with which it is as you would think: 2h better dps, S/S better tanking.

[Random70]

beancounter501 wrote...

But with the video fight it is pretty easy to come up with results that are really skewed to one side. How about the Ser Cauthorn fight? The S&S character would spend 90% of the time stunned. Or against an Orge - again he would be stunned/knocked down all the time. How about against Branka and the Golems? Again the results would be really skewed to a Two Hander with Indomitable and Shattering Blows. Or against masses of Skeletons - again two hand sweep and shattering blows would make it a blow away competition.

AFAIK, Shattering Blows is still broken. 2H still looks good during Anvil of the Void and its heavily armored golems, however. CGM + Two Handed Strength = Massive armor pen

beancounter501 wrote...
@Random70 - That was a playthrough with the PC being a Caster Mage, Wynne, Alistar and Oghren. No SoC, blood thirst or Haste was used.

Alas, it would appear that my nod towards smart-****ery = Fail

[Fish_Eye_McGee]

Getting stunned is a bad example. Are dual wielders, arcane warriors, and backstabbrs worse at dps because they get stunned? Sure a fight with lots of stuns might make them LESS useful, but how often does that happen?

[Nooneyouknow13]

I'll add some data here, that will be useful in calcs, and useless on it's own:

Shield Bash: Takes 3 seconds

Shield Pummel: 1 second

Overpower: 1 second

Assault: 1 second

Critical Strike: 1 second

Sunder Arms: 1 second

Sunder Armor: 1 second

Mighty blow: 1 second

Two-Handed Sweep: 1 second



These are the conjuration times to perform these skills, ie the animation time for them. This time is completely unaffected by any boosts in attack speed. Shield Bash is always a massive damage loss, unless you need to control the target. It has also appeared to me in all playthroughs that prone enemies are easier to hit, but I have no data to back that up.

[Random70]

Fish_Eye_McGee wrote...

Getting stunned is a bad example. Are dual wielders, arcane warriors, and backstabbrs worse at dps because they get stunned? Sure a fight with lots of stuns might make them LESS useful, but how often does that happen?

To answer you question, yes being unconcious or lying on your back are going to have a negative impact on your capability to kill things. As to how often it occurs well, off the top of my head...

- High level archers love Scattershot
- Many archers (including every last damned one in Jarvia's Lair) will throw Dirty Fighting at you.
- Many genlocks appear to be rogue-based and use Dirty Fighting often
- Shrieks use Terrorize frequently
- Enemy S/S love Bash and Pummel
- Most big monster types have some kind of knockdown: Rake, Ram, Leap, Slam, etc.
- Enemy mages will Fireball and Blizzard you and will Mind Blast if surrounded

Don't underestimate Indomitable

Modifié par Random70, 19 avril 2010 - 09:12 .

[Nooneyouknow13]

Random70 wrote...

Fish_Eye_McGee wrote...

Getting stunned is a bad example. Are dual wielders, arcane warriors, and backstabbrs worse at dps because they get stunned? Sure a fight with lots of stuns might make them LESS useful, but how often does that happen?

To answer you question, yes being unconcious or lying on your back are going to have a negative impact on your capability to kill things. As to how often it occurs well, off the top of my head...

- High level archers love Scattershot
- Many archers (including every last damned one in Jarvia's Lair) will throw Dirty Fighting at you.
- Many genlocks appear to be rogue-based and use Dirty Fighting often
- Shrieks use Terrorize frequently
- Enemy S/S love Bash and Pummel
- Most big monster types have some kind of knockdown: Rake, Ram, Leap, Slam, etc.

Don't underestimate Indomitable

To add to this, the archers in the Korkari Wilds will use Scatter Shot on nightmare from my experience.