183 réponses à ce sujet

[beancounter501]

@Random - hey I am trying not to be snarky here! Just saying..



Shattering Blows was broken, but when I looked through a recent combat_damage_h script it appears that it was fixed. And the dmg from 2 Hand against constructs - Golems/Skeletons/Walking Corpses seems higher then normal attacks. But I have not formally tested it out by posting to debug log. I have a save game near the Anvil, I may just test it out once I get some free time from work.



@Fish - Yes getting stunned is bad and really hurts your DPS. Plus, think about who does the Stuns and Knockdowns - Bosses, Lieutenants, Dragons, Ogres, Mages - all the really big nasty stuff you want your warrior to kill fast. Who does not - trash mobs. I have watched videos of Dual Weld Warrors soloing a Dragon and be continually knocked down. Now, a Dual Weld warrior can still be effective because of blazing fast attack speed, but a S&S would take a long time to bring down the High Dragon solo.

Same goes with Armor Pen, who has high Armor? The big tough critters. Who does not - most trash mobs.







Actually, there is no need for me to post a video because there are already a ton of videos of 2 hand Warriors killing things solo. Tough Fights like the High Dragon/Branka/Ser Cauthorn.



Let Trav post a video of his S&S warrior soloing the high dragon. Or Branka. No Haste/Song of Courage and that stuff. No overpowered DLC items either, just plain vanilla DAO. Trav seems quite convinced he is right and it would be quite interesting to see that match up.

[Fish_Eye_McGee]

Using that logic, the only useful party members for most of the game would be a 2H with indomitable on and a s&s with the whole second line and shield wall on. The rest will be frequently stunned and therefore inferior in damage, correct? Don't get me wrong, I've played this through 6 times (twice on nightmare) and I kept indomitable on for every 2H warrior I kept in my party. However, my stunnable dw warrior had the highest dps of any other character I played, so I don't feel immunity to stun is THAT important.

[Fish_Eye_McGee]

Yeah you posted that before I finished mine, and I can't edit on my phone, so... I see what you mean. However, if he soloed those, he'd probably turn on shield wall anyways. A side note, I am not convinced either way is better, and I've only played a 2h warrior so I can't say from experience. I think 2h is probably better at dps, but I'm unsure. I would like to see the battles since both sides have posted data that makes their side seem good.

[traversc]

Nooneyouknow13 wrote...

I'll add some data here, that will be useful in calcs, and useless on it's own:
Shield Bash: Takes 3 seconds
Shield Pummel: 1 second
Overpower: 1 second
Assault: 1 second
Critical Strike: 1 second
Sunder Arms: 1 second
Sunder Armor: 1 second
Mighty blow: 1 second
Two-Handed Sweep: 1 second

These are the conjuration times to perform these skills, ie the animation time for them. This time is completely unaffected by any boosts in attack speed. Shield Bash is always a massive damage loss, unless you need to control the target. It has also appeared to me in all playthroughs that prone enemies are easier to hit, but I have no data to back that up.

Hello. 

I don't believe conjuration time is the same as animation time.  The conjuration time of Ogre Grab, for example, is 1s, but the animation lasts 10. 

[traversc]

Same goes with Armor Pen, who has high Armor? The big tough critters. Who does not - most trash mobs.

If you are fighting one big tough critter (e.g. high dragon, darkspawn dragon), guess what? You're not getting the benefit of AoE sweep. Then the math swings STRONGLY back in favor of S/S. And you better believe S/S does better against the high dragon. Indomitable doesn't prevent you from getting knocked back.

But with the video fight it is pretty easy to come up with results that are really skewed to one side. How about the Ser Cauthorn fight? The S&S character would spend 90% of the time stunned. Or against an Orge - again he would be stunned/knocked down all the time. How about against Branka and the Golems? Again the results would be really skewed to a Two Hander with Indomitable and Shattering Blows. Or against masses of Skeletons - again two hand sweep and shattering blows would make it a blow away competition.

...

Actually, there is no need for me to post a video because there are
already a ton of videos of 2 hand Warriors killing things solo. Tough
Fights like the High Dragon/Branka/Ser Cauthorn.

Now you are just avoiding and not even reading my post.  No video to my knowledge, has what I've asked for. 
 I am not asking you to fight any particular foe. What I am asking for is purely a method to allow us to calculate DPS using a hypothetical foe that is conjured by the script I posted. All I am asking for is few minutes of someone's time. Anyone. 

Also, you asked for me to post videos.  I will, if necessary.  But I think S/S auto-attack DPS is enough to beat out 2H DPS with or without talents, so I don't think it is necessary.  Now I could be wrong and talents do make a big difference, and so in that case, I will post a video.  Fair enough? 

But either way, if no one else posts a video, there is nothing concrete for me to compare against. 

Modifié par traversc, 19 avril 2010 - 10:40 .

[Nooneyouknow13]

I'm basing this on comparison to Archery - Conjuration time is the time it takes for an archery shot to activate and complete, and nothing you do can change it. Shield Bash also takes noticeably longer to complete than the other skills, and the Two hand skills are much, much faster than it's auto swings, notably faster than even a double haste auto swing. I could be wrong,, it could simply be the time until the move is considered active, and actually dealing damage, but I'm fairly certain it should be the entire animation time.

[traversc]

Nooneyouknow13 wrote...

I'm basing this on comparison to Archery - Conjuration time is the time it takes for an archery shot to activate and complete, and nothing you do can change it. Shield Bash also takes noticeably longer to complete than the other skills, and the Two hand skills are much, much faster than it's auto swings, notably faster than even a double haste auto swing. I could be wrong,, it could simply be the time until the move is considered active, and actually dealing damage, but I'm fairly certain it should be the entire animation time.

It's not.  At least, not in every case.  I've given you the example of ogre grab.  There's also the example of overpower (monster).  Neither of these conjuration times match the animation length.  Also, this is easily tested to be false.  Chaining sunder 1, sunder 2, mighty blow and sweep took approximately 9 seconds. 

[mosspit]

traversc wrote...
First, shield bash does not add DPS compared to auto-attack, so there is no point in using it. So S&S talents damage is 1,346. The difference is now 11 attack talents vs 6.

Let's assume talents take the same time to complete.* That gives S/S 2.55*5 seconds of auto-attack.** S/S interval is 1.52 (8.39 auto-attacks) with Blood Thirst.

The numbers then become:
2 Hand Talent Spam: 2,435
S&S with BT : 1,512 + 8.39 Auto Attacks * 93 = 2126.3

Much less of a difference. But what happens when you add haste to the mix? S/S interval becomes 1.055 (12.09) with BT/Haste.

S&S with BT : 1,512 + 8.39 Auto Attacks * 93 = 2470.4

But even IF the numers for 2H do turn out to be bigger, you are still not proving that 2H has better DPS. You are proving that 2H has better spike, which is a different issue. If you want to prove 2H has better DPS, see below.
.

So what? Does SnS talents still wipe the floor with 2H talents?

Modifié par mosspit, 19 avril 2010 - 11:29 .

[traversc]

mosspit wrote...
So what? Does SnS talents still wipe the floor with 2H talents?

Is that a rhetorical question or are you asking seriously?

[beancounter501]

@Trav - OK, I misunderstood what you are asking.  So, you wrote a simple script to summon a monster you designed and fight it.  Let me guess, your monster has zero armor and has no method to Stun or Knockdown.  But he has a million hit points or so. 

I really don't see any value in that.  What you are basing your argument on has very little to do with how the game plays out or how one build will compare to another.  But by all means take you S&S character and fight him, then respec and fight him again as a two hand warrior.  Come back and post the results.  You certainitly do not need anyone to download your script and try it out.

A valid comparion of two builds would need a range of battles that mimic some of the harder encounters in the game.

1.  Single Target fights against armored heavy hitting monsters.  Like an Ogre or Dragon.
2.  Mass fights with a couple of Lieuteants and Archers backing them up
3.  Fighting a couple of waves off trash melee mobs
4.  Fighting a party of 2 mages and 2 Warriors - Like the battle against Kolgrim
5.  Battle some animals like the dire bears/ dire wolves with Overwhelm

What DA needs is an arena type Mod, like some of the mods for NWN2.  If you have read some of the earlier dev posts they stated that is how they balanced the classes.  With trials against certain monsters.

Or you can post some vids of you soloing the High Dragon as Str based S&S.  Might as well throw in Branka too.  And Ser Cauthorn

Modifié par beancounter501, 20 avril 2010 - 12:58 .

[traversc]

beancounter501 wrote...

@Trav - OK, I misunderstood what you are asking.  So, you wrote a simple script to summon a monster you designed and fight it.  Let me guess, your monster has zero armor and has no method to Stun or Knockdown.  But he has a million hit points or so. 

Not quite.  I'm NOT asking for empirical DPS data. 

What I'm asking for is simply a count: the number of hits you can do in a certain time interval and the number of times you use each attack talents in that time interval.

Talent damage can be calculated explicitly, so there is no need to empirically derive them. Truly, the only piece of information I am missing is talent intervals, which I see no better way of figuring out than empirically. (Of course, if anyone is intimately familiar with the toolset and game resources wants to step in with some insight here...)

Other than that, we can factor in or estimate mathematically everything else. For example:

damage buff effects (e.g., Song of Courage (+3-4?), Flame weapon (+20) etc.
armor effect
AoE effect (e.g. 2H sweep)
stun immunity (e.g. how often you would be stunned without indom)
Knockback effect (e.g. against high dragon)

Of course, parameters will have to be estimated to a degree. I am truly interested in the results. But this is for my own edification as well, and so rather than fiddle with estimated parameters, I'll leave them open, so I can't be accused of bias. And then I'll leave the thread at that for others to make their own conclusion.

To reiterate, what I need is the following:

"2 minutes of the best DPS you can muster, (plus 30 seconds of auto-attacking for normalizing purposes). If you need extra stamina, just cheat, IDC. (Don't bother using Sweep, since we can add the AoE effct to the calculations manually).

You will have to do this twice, since there are two cases we are
interested in having to deal with attack speed:
1) Just Blood Thirst. Use no outside attack speed buffs.
2) Blood Thirst + 1x Haste.
"

Is that fair?

Modifié par traversc, 20 avril 2010 - 01:26 .

[beancounter501]

^^ Trav, there is no need for anyone else to do this. Just run the test and post your results.

Random70 wrote...



AFAIK, Shattering Blows is still broken.

Sadly, you are correct. I modified the script combat_damage_h to print to the debug log in the section that checks for Shattering Blows and it never passed a single check on Constructs. So no bonus dmg. Still a bugged feat. Grrr, that is really annoying.

[traversc]

^^Sadly, no. I'm not going to do it myself because then some idiot will come in here and "LOL NOOB U DINT DO IT RITE!!1" Also, they'd be right: I'm perfectly willing to admit I DONT use 2H right (e.g., time attacks properly) since I have hardly any practice with it.

If no one will do it, then EVERYTHING you say has absolutely no weight behind it because it is all just hand-waving, and any hand-waving can be countered with more hand-waving.  If that's the case, really, the only conclusions you can PROVE are about auto-attack DPS, and what happens when you apply buffs to auto-attacks. And we all know where that leads.

Modifié par traversc, 20 avril 2010 - 02:51 .

[Phaelducan]

"What I'm asking for is simply a count: the number of hits you can do in a certain time interval and the number of times you use each attack talents in that time interval."



The reason that comparison won't work in this argument is that 2H will be able to maintain constant damage without interruption in most situations. That is not the case with S/S.



You are asking us to accept your logic based on tests occurring in a vacuum. That isn't realistic. The game isn't played without variables... variables which kill your hypothesis.



AoE fights, negating stuns, armor penetration, etc. These things are that which dramatically increase the DPS done by 2H warriors. You can't ask everyone to ignore those things simply on the premise of accepting your premise that S/S > 2H dps without those variables.



This is an absurd argument. It's not even apples and oranges.... it's apples and baseballs.

[Hulk Hsieh]

beancounter501 wrote...

But with the video fight it is pretty easy to come up with results that are really skewed to one side. How about the Ser Cauthorn fight? The S&S character would spend 90% of the time stunned. Or against an Orge - again he would be stunned/knocked down all the time. How about against Branka and the Golems? Again the results would be really skewed to a Two Hander with Indomitable and Shattering Blows. Or against masses of Skeletons - again two hand sweep and shattering blows would make it a blow away competition.

And the S&S character would choose a battle where the targets had low armor and no special knockdown/stun attacks. Some fight where the player fights streams of trash mobs like Genlocks and his sword would be loaded down with Silverite Runes and he would auto attack his way to victory. Or against a single Revernant and your Sword would be loaded down with Cold Iron Runes. Sorry, I don't see how one video can really prove anything.

"Streams of trash mobs like Genlocks" comes in batches and Sweep still works.
You need "trash mobs that come one at a time" for S&S.

[traversc]

Phaelducan wrote...

"What I'm asking for is simply a count: the number of hits you can do in a certain time interval and the number of times you use each attack talents in that time interval."

The reason that comparison won't work in this argument is that 2H will be able to maintain constant damage without interruption in most situations. That is not the case with S/S.

You are asking us to accept your logic based on tests occurring in a vacuum. That isn't realistic. The game isn't played without variables... variables which kill your hypothesis.

AoE fights, negating stuns, armor penetration, etc. These things are that which dramatically increase the DPS done by 2H warriors. You can't ask everyone to ignore those things simply on the premise of accepting your premise that S/S > 2H dps without those variables.

This is an absurd argument. It's not even apples and oranges.... it's apples and baseballs.

First off, hand-waving.  My response: counter hand-waving.  Read any number of my earlier posts for more hand-waving arguments.

Secondly, READ THE POST YOU'RE RESPONDING TO. 

ALL THOSE THINGS CAN BE ESTIMATED AND CALCULATED MANUALLY. 

"Other than that, we can factor in or estimate mathematically everything
else. For example:

damage buff effects (e.g., Song of Courage
(+3-4?), Flame weapon (+20) etc.
armor effect
AoE effect (e.g. 2H
sweep)
stun immunity (e.g. how often you would be stunned without
indom)
Knockback effect (e.g. against high dragon)"

This ISN'T something that "occurs in a vacuum."  If you believe stun to be a huge factor, you will tweak the parameter.  That is your choice.  Really, at this point, it isn't about proving which one is better one way or the other.  It has become an academic exercise, and NO ONE has stepped up to the plate.  They'd rather argue endlessly for hours and days.  Are you all afraid of what the numbers will tell you, or what? 

Step.  Up. 

Back up your arguments, or quit. 

Modifié par traversc, 20 avril 2010 - 03:13 .

[Nooneyouknow13]

beancounter501 wrote...


5.  Battle some animals like the dire bears/ dire wolves with Overwhelm

What would this accomplish? As far as I'm aware, knockdown immunity doesn't prevent Overwhelm at all. Nothing seems to, except already being CCed, or being an invalid creature type.


Also, if S&B does more damage out atgainst a 0 armor target, then it would gain a slightly larger benefit from Spirit Warrior in Awakening than 2 hand.  I highly suspect that S&B does do more single target DPS than two hand over a long fight.  Two hand has other advantages however, which make them fairly even over the course of the game I suspect.

Modifié par Nooneyouknow13, 20 avril 2010 - 04:23 .

[traversc]

Hulk Hsieh wrote...
"Streams of trash mobs like Genlocks" comes in batches and Sweep still works.
You need "trash mobs that come one at a time" for S&S.

On the other hand, S&S still out DPSes 2H against single targets, regardless of armor. 

[Hulk Hsieh]

Nooneyouknow13 wrote...
What would this accomplish? As far as I'm aware, knockdown immunity doesn't prevent Overwhelm at all. Nothing seems to, except already being CCed, or being an invalid creature type.


Also, if S&B does more damage out atgainst a 0 armor target, then it would gain a slightly larger benefit from Spirit Warrior in Awakening than 2 hand.  I highly suspect that S&B does do more single target DPS than two hand over a long fight.  Two hand has other advantages however, which make them fairly even over the course of the game I suspect.

Not in Awakening.

Peon's Blight does about x4 damage of single swing to Elite regardless of speed.
Onslaught is a talent that hits for 4 times.
Sweeping stike can hit an enemy before even in melee range, makes 2h-er start dealing damage earlier.

[Tirigon]

beancounter501 wrote...

^^ Trav, there is no need for anyone else to do this. Just run the test and post your results.

Random70 wrote...

AFAIK, Shattering Blows is still broken.

Sadly, you are correct. I modified the script combat_damage_h to print to the debug log in the section that checks for Shattering Blows and it never passed a single check on Constructs. So no bonus dmg. Still a bugged feat. Grrr, that is really annoying.

As said, get the "Better 2handed" mod.



@ All the calculators: Remember that, with a 2H warrior you can greatly increase your DPS by animation cancelling (that is using a talent when the previous hit / talent has done damage but the animation isn´t finished yet). Due to the slow hit animation of twohanders that increases your effective attackspeed greatly.
It might be that it works for S/S too, but even then it has less impact.

[Tirigon]

traversc wrote...
First off, hand-waving.  My response: counter hand-waving.  Read any number of my earlier posts for more hand-waving arguments.

Secondly, READ THE POST YOU'RE RESPONDING TO. 

ALL THOSE THINGS CAN BE ESTIMATED AND CALCULATED MANUALLY. 

"Other than that, we can factor in or estimate mathematically everything
else. For example:

damage buff effects (e.g., Song of Courage
(+3-4?), Flame weapon (+20) etc.
armor effect
AoE effect (e.g. 2H
sweep)
stun immunity (e.g. how often you would be stunned without
indom)
Knockback effect (e.g. against high dragon)"

This ISN'T something that "occurs in a vacuum."  If you believe stun to be a huge factor, you will tweak the parameter.  That is your choice.  Really, at this point, it isn't about proving which one is better one way or the other.  It has become an academic exercise, and NO ONE has stepped up to the plate.  They'd rather argue endlessly for hours and days.  Are you all afraid of what the numbers will tell you, or what? 

Step.  Up. 

Back up your arguments, or quit. 

FOR ****S SAKE JUST DO YOUR USELESS TEST YOURSELF!!!!!!!!!!!!! IS THAT SO HARD?!


Omg.......

[TemjinGold]

Guys, I think I see traversc's point: He can't do the video himself because he admitted that he doesn't know how to chain attacks effectively with 2H. If he does it, he will end up with fewer total hits than someone who is skilled at doing so will. That's the reason why he wants someone good with 2H to do the video.



As to the guy he's conjuring, I don't think the video is meant to prove total damage. He wants to know in reality, how many total hits/talents would you actually get if you were good at chaining those 2H talents/attacks. That's something that math can't calculate without estimating (which can horribly skew things.) Once the video figures out how many total hits/talents you can get in X number of minutes, math can then be applied to figure out what the damage would be in different situations.

[beancounter501]

Take mouse click attack. Press Sunder Arms. Press Sunder Armor. Press Might Blow. Press Critical Strike. Watch screen. Press any button were the cooldown timer runs out for one of those talents. Watch screen some more. A little tricky I will admit.

[soteria]

I'll just point out that haste and bloodthirst have no influence on whether S&S or 2h is better at autoattacking, as has been sometimes asserted in this thread. Hasted or not, using Random70's stats for characters, and assuming +20 damage from runes and weapon buffs, the S/S should have ~15% advantage against an unarmored target, and ~4% against an armored target, while autoattacking. Judging off my own characters' armor, I'd put the average enemy at closer to 20 armor than 0, unless someone knows from scripts that visibly armored targets are in fact unarmored.



On the other hand, this assumes you aren't getting stunned. The only fights I can think of that are an even playing field in that sense are against monters that overwhelm but don't stun. Also, it assumes you run damage runes. I personally consider paralyze runes to be superior in pretty much every way, since I usually have some sort of backstabbing rogue in my group. Having extra chances to backstab even against flanking-immune enemies + near auto-hits for everyone blows damage runes out of the water, imo. Plus, enemies don't do damage while stunned. The Architect, for example, went down very quickly to two backstabbing rogues with paralyze runes. He never got off another spell once they got started. That is to say, they're more beneficial to the group, and work on even elite bosses, including dragons.

Guys, I think I see traversc's point: He can't do the video himself because he admitted that he doesn't know how to chain attacks effectively with 2H. If he does it, he will end up with fewer total hits than someone who is skilled at doing so will. That's the reason why he wants someone good with 2H to do the video.

If that's the case, he should abandon his argument. If he doesn't know how to play it well enough to get the most out of the build, then how can he say it's categorically inferior? He doesn't know. If S/S is WAY better, as he claims, then his test should show that. If someone objects to his test on grounds that he did it wrong, then that's the point they should do it themselves, and what has he lost? I'll say that S/S has come closer

[traversc]

TemjinGold wrote...

Guys, I think I see traversc's point: He can't do the video himself because he admitted that he doesn't know how to chain attacks effectively with 2H. If he does it, he will end up with fewer total hits than someone who is skilled at doing so will. That's the reason why he wants someone good with 2H to do the video.

As to the guy he's conjuring, I don't think the video is meant to prove total damage. He wants to know in reality, how many total hits/talents would you actually get if you were good at chaining those 2H talents/attacks. That's something that math can't calculate without estimating (which can horribly skew things.) Once the video figures out how many total hits/talents you can get in X number of minutes, math can then be applied to figure out what the damage would be in different situations.

Thank you... I think >.>

If that's the case, he should abandon his argument. If he doesn't know how to play it well enough to get the most out of the build, then how
can he say it's categorically inferior? He doesn't know. r

But I DO know how to do it.  I've done it, and I've seen it done.  But two points: 1) As BC said, it's "tricky", and I have limited practice with it.  2) I'm not about to do it just to see "ololol NUB UR DOING IT WRONG" which is inevitable (even if I miraculously do it RIGHT the WHOLE time).  

So now that we understand each other, let's get the ball rolling, okay?