183 réponses à ce sujet

[Lowenhart]

oblivionkyle wrote...

alright...I got a question... can 1H and shield be Dps, my friend said it canbut he didnt realy give me much info on the mater and because im gonig to make shale my tank and me a dw warrior, i thought "Hey, why not see if i can make alistair a dps shield" is this possible, if so HOW??

Yes but as said somewhere below your post, dont exspect to outdamage 2handed and DW for most past, thou Assault will at times seem a bit surpassing 2handed damage given you put up right stats and got shield mastery, it wont top the 2 others, and in exspansion DW will outrun it by far, cant speak on 2handeds behalf since i havent used that in awakening, mostly because i prefer the extra survivability DW gives with its higher defense skill at base.

Modifié par Lowenhart, 21 avril 2010 - 11:09 .

[soteria]

-Attributes are definitely are not accurate. First, At lvl 25, you have 82 spendable attributes includ +5 from tomes. Also, you are forgetting 1) fade bonuses 2) item bonuses. Fade bonuses mean the difference in strength is actually only ~5-ish. I also have a list of ideal-ish gear for warriors, somewhere on my CPU. I'll get around to posting it if you want.

Err--he was using actual characters for the attributes. How is that "not accurate"?

[beancounter501]

@Random - Those are raw numbers. So the effective armor would be about 85% of those values on avg. Also, you mentioned seeing the Armor Rating of 16 for Ash Wraiths on the screen. Where did you see that?



The values were a lot lower then I was expecting. The player has a very big advantage here. I almost felt bad when I was looking through the log and saw the entries were Howe & Co were attacking my party! Still for purposes of this discussion Armor Pen would still have an impact. Simply because the axe Vershaille has horrid AP - 4. Against Howe's Guard with a armor 15 and an effective armor of 12.75 the S&S warrior would lose 8 pts of dmg a hit. Which would knock down his DPS by 5 points or so. Of course the 2 Hander would completely bypass the armor. Which BTW, makes a S&S and 2 Hander almost completely equal on simple auto attacks. Even with all the Grandmaster & Flaming Weapon Buffs. Against a target like the Stone Golem the S&S really hurts losing close to 20 pts of dmg a hit vs the 2 Hand would only lose 3 points.



One thing is for sure - your two hand warrior should be spamming Sunder Armor against the big high armor boss critters constantly. The ten point armor debuff will help out the rest of your melee team a lot.



Some of the DPS results really had me scratching my head. In my real life playthrough Oghren seem so much more effective then a Str Based Alistar. I wrote down total dmg number from the character screen before and after several fights and Oghren was constantly out performing Alistar.



LOL, first off neither Oghren or Alistar had strength levels any where near the 103/93 levels used in the calculations. Alistar was 68 and Oghren was 82. And neither one had three grandmaster runes. And there was no Flaming Weapons on. Still, I would have expected Alistar to do better. After really paying attention to several fights when I was doing the armor tests I really noticed the impact of Indomitable. In some fights Alistar was getting stunned/knocked down all over the place while Oghren kept on. He was really vulnerable in the start of the fight, frequently getting stunned right as he started too execute Shield Pummel. Getting stunned and loosing one of your few special attacks really stinks. Also, Ogren was pulling several very nice 2 Hand Sweeps. Not to mention Sunder Arms/Armor.



Anyone can replicate this test if you are on the PC. Just respec Alistar to be strength based and take Oghren/Sten in your party. Give them comparable gear. Write down the total damage numbers on the character screen and then go kill something. Check the damage numbers again after the fight. For me at least, the two hand warrior was outperforming the S&S guy constantly. I personally feel that is a more useful test then a DPS calculation.

[mosspit]

@bean - As always, Nice test(s)! On enemies AP in retospect, it really explains the significance of armour.... and how painful a stacked sunder armour and shattering shot debuff is.



By the way, anyone here tried animation cancelling an SnS?

[DWSmiley]

Fascinating thread, guys, and Alistair thanks you. I've gotten bored with tanks so he was sitting in camp most of the time. Now I know how to make him interesting again. And he starts nicely spec'd to become a dps warrior, with no talents wasted on the second tree.

[traversc]

soteria wrote...

-Attributes are definitely are not accurate. First, At lvl 25, you have 82 spendable attributes includ +5 from tomes. Also, you are forgetting 1) fade bonuses 2) item bonuses. Fade bonuses mean the difference in strength is actually only ~5-ish. I also have a list of ideal-ish gear for warriors, somewhere on my CPU. I'll get around to posting it if you want.

Err--he was using actual characters for the attributes. How is that "not accurate"?

I just meant that you can do better. 

S/S:

dex (14 + 4 fade + 8)

STR 15 base
+2 berserker
+4 fade
+2 Andruil's Blessing
+2 helm of honnleath
+1 effort's gloves
+3 blood dragon armor
+1 heart of witherfang
+2 ring of the warrior
+2 Key to the city
+1 Earthheart
Total spendable points: 82 (74 towards STR)

Total: 117

Note: Amulet of the War Mage and Ember (ring) are better with flame weapon active.  In that case, total would be 114. 


2H:

117 + 8 - 1

Total: 124

[Nooneyouknow13]

Blood Dragon armor should be avoided, as it no longer has the same stats for everyone. For pure damage out, Cailan's Gloves and The Warden Commander's Chest would likely be the best for both of them, unless you're trying to avoid content that not everyone has access to.

Modifié par Nooneyouknow13, 21 avril 2010 - 08:31 .

[traversc]

You may be right, I just got this setup from an old, old topic. But my instincts tell me that +crit dmg is not as good, since crit chance is so low, generally speaking. Warden Commander Armor would add ~100 dmg*~0.1 crit chance * 0.15 = ~1.5 dmg. BDA would add 0.625*1.1 mod*3 = ~2 dmg.

Also, BDA 1.0 is still available for download, so I don't see that as a problem.

For gloves: I'd throw my vote in with either Gloves of Guile (2.5 AP) or Katriel's grasp (+3% crit chance). Katriel's grasp would add ~100 dmg*0.03*~1.6 = ~5 dmg, which seems to trump everything.


Edit: I guess that means cadash stompers would be the best boots for either as well.  

Modifié par traversc, 21 avril 2010 - 08:52 .

[Random70]

beancounter501 wrote...

@Random - Those are raw numbers. So the effective armor would be about 85% of those values on avg. Also, you mentioned seeing the Armor Rating of 16 for Ash Wraiths on the screen. Where did you see that?

You have subtract another 15% off of those values? Thats actually kind of disappointing. And feels a little low. That would mean that a golem would have an effective AC of ~24, meaning that my rogue from the previous example was only losing ~10 damage per swing. It felt like the damage reduction was more on the order of ~20 but perhaps I'm misremembering.

As to the Wraiths, if you arrive at the Gauntlet bridge puzzle with less than three companions, the game adds them to your party so you can hit all of the stepping stones. At that point you can view their stats like any other party member

beancounter501 wrote...
One thing is for sure - your two hand warrior should be spamming Sunder Armor against the big high armor boss critters constantly. The ten point armor debuff will help out the rest of your melee team a lot.

Actually its -20 but I concur with your point.

beancounter501 wrote...
Some of the DPS results really had me scratching my head. In my real life playthrough Oghren seem so much more effective then a Str Based Alistar. I wrote down total dmg number from the character screen before and after several fights and Oghren was constantly out performing Alistar.

LOL, first off neither Oghren or Alistar had strength levels any where near the 103/93 levels used in the calculations. Alistar was 68 and Oghren was 82. And neither one had three grandmaster runes. And there was no Flaming Weapons on. Still, I would have expected Alistar to do better. After really paying attention to several fights when I was doing the armor tests I really noticed the impact of Indomitable. In some fights Alistar was getting stunned/knocked down all over the place while Oghren kept on. He was really vulnerable in the start of the fight, frequently getting stunned right as he started too execute Shield Pummel. Getting stunned and loosing one of your few special attacks really stinks. Also, Ogren was pulling several very nice 2 Hand Sweeps. Not to mention Sunder Arms/Armor.

Anyone can replicate this test if you are on the PC. Just respec Alistar to be strength based and take Oghren/Sten in your party. Give them comparable gear. Write down the total damage numbers on the character screen and then go kill something. Check the damage numbers again after the fight. For me at least, the two hand warrior was outperforming the S&S guy constantly. I personally feel that is a more useful test then a DPS calculation.

Surely your'e not suggesting that a 'real' world test would trump mathematics, are you?

[Nooneyouknow13]

traversc wrote...

You may be right, I just got this setup from an old, old topic. But my instincts tell me that +crit dmg is not as good, since crit chance is so low, generally speaking. Warden Commander Armor would add ~100 dmg*~0.1 crit chance * 0.15 = ~1.5 dmg. BDA would add 0.625*1.1 mod*3 = ~2 dmg.

Also, BDA 1.0 is still available for download, so I don't see that as a problem.

For gloves: I'd throw my vote in with either Gloves of Guile (2.5 AP) or Katriel's grasp (+3% crit chance). Katriel's grasp would add ~100 dmg*0.03*~1.6 = ~5 dmg, which seems to trump everything.


Edit: I guess that means cadash stompers would be the best boots for either as well.  

I pointed out the crit damage since both skill sets have a fair amount of gauranteed crit skills, as well as auto attack crits to use.  Also, isn't BDA 1.0 still missing the elven female model? That's a pretty solid reason not to use it, if you can get past how ugly the armor is even when working properly.

[traversc]

Nooneyouknow13 wrote...

traversc wrote...

You may be right, I just got this setup from an old, old topic. But my instincts tell me that +crit dmg is not as good, since crit chance is so low, generally speaking. Warden Commander Armor would add ~100 dmg*~0.1 crit chance * 0.15 = ~1.5 dmg. BDA would add 0.625*1.1 mod*3 = ~2 dmg.

Also, BDA 1.0 is still available for download, so I don't see that as a problem.

For gloves: I'd throw my vote in with either Gloves of Guile (2.5 AP) or Katriel's grasp (+3% crit chance). Katriel's grasp would add ~100 dmg*0.03*~1.6 = ~5 dmg, which seems to trump everything.


Edit: I guess that means cadash stompers would be the best boots for either as well.  

I pointed out the crit damage since both skill sets have a fair amount of gauranteed crit skills, as well as auto attack crits to use.  Also, isn't BDA 1.0 still missing the elven female model? That's a pretty solid reason not to use it, if you can get past how ugly the armor is even when working properly.

You may have a point about auto-crit abilities.  But still, I'm pretty sure that even for 2H, the majority of DPS comes from auto-attacks and non-auto-crit talents.  I guess we just can't be sure without more info.  *HINT*HINT*HINT*HINT*HINT*HINT*HINT*

About BDA and Elven female, well I haven't played one so it doesn't bother me. 

[Random70]

Nooneyouknow13 wrote...
I pointed out the crit damage since both skill sets have a fair amount of gauranteed crit skills, as well as auto attack crits to use.  Also, isn't BDA 1.0 still missing the elven female model? That's a pretty solid reason not to use it, if you can get past how ugly the armor is even when working properly.

In that case, isn't a black void where your breastplate should be an improvment?

In the BC's calculations, he was only testing auto attack so talents wouldn't come into play. Beyond that, like Traversc mentioned, both of these characters have a miniscule crit% as tested, so adding + crit damage gear doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Adding Blood Thirst (+10% crit chance) to the mix, however, may change that.

On the end of the spectrum, if talents are included, you could add Cailan's / WC (perhaps Wicked Oath?) to the 2H  with Maetashear, Cadash Stompers, Shadow Belt, Blood Thirst and Precise Striking for some filthy crits. A 500 point sunder attack should be doable with this setup.

[Random70]

traversc wrote...
You may have a point about auto-crit abilities.  But still, I'm pretty sure that even for 2H, the majority of DPS comes from auto-attacks and non-auto-crit talents.  I guess we just can't be sure without more info.  *HINT*HINT*HINT*HINT*HINT*HINT*HINT*

But if we knew for sure then we wouldn't be able to argue about for days on end.

[oblivionkyle]

gosh, i come back a coupe days after posting, i cnt even find my answer sicne ppl start figthing and whining...geez

[Fish_Eye_McGee]

oblivionkyle wrote...

gosh, i come back a coupe days after posting, i cnt even find my answer sicne ppl start figthing and whining...geez

Come on man, I feel your answer is fairly clear. If there is actually an argument about whether or not s&s or 2H is better at dps, I think it's clear that s&s CAN be good dps.

I see your point, but with the question answered they've moved on to a discussion of whether 2H or s&s is more effective at dps. 

[beancounter501]

Random70 wrote...
snip! 
Surely your'e not suggesting that a 'real' world test would trump mathematics, are you?

LOL, love the line.  Very rarely real world tests beat mathmatics and nerdcraft!  Hey with a name like beancounter what do you expect?!

Modifying the damage numbers to account for talents is pretty straightforward.  For Sunders knock off 1 regular attack and add two with out 35 points of dmg from runes/flame weapons.  For sweep knock off 1 attack and add three or four attacks witout 35 points of dmg.  The S&S talent may be a little more tricky since they are slower then a regular attack.

But the above paragraph highlights one of the key problems for ALL warriors when compared to say Rogues or Mages.  Their main attraction - Melee Talents do not pick up Runes/Enchantments.  It really hurts the 2 Hand Warrior since he relies on talents most of all.  The Dual weld is the least impacted since he has momentum.  Still a 2 Hand Sweep or Whirhwind could easily lose 100 to 200 pts of dmg because of Runes.  Poor archers just get the shaft. 

But, for two hand Warriors I think you can rely make a strong case for focusing on critical hits late game.  First, his base damage is the highest of any build - Weapon & Str Mod which are the ONLY things multiplied on a critial hit.  Second, he has a crappy swing speed and should be relying on talent attacks vs auto attacks - the perfect time to turn on Percise Striking and the big crit mod.  Third, he gets two nice side effects from a critical - a 50% chance to Stun and Destroyer which is a sligh debuff to the targets armor.  Alright, I will admit Destroyer does not really live up to its name.  A warm place in hell is reserved for whoever thought up that tier 4 feat!  He will sit right next to the guy who coded Chain Lightning.  Fourth, spells like Telekinetic Weapons and Song of Courage will work on a talent attack.  Telekinetic can help a weapon like Maetsheer Axe compete with Chasind Maul on Armor Pen.

Plus, I would love to see a 500 pt Sunder Arms!  WOW!

Modifié par beancounter501, 22 avril 2010 - 01:08 .

[traversc]

Modifying the damage numbers to account for talents is pretty straightforward. For Sunders knock off 1 regular attack and add two with out 35 points of dmg from runes/flame weapons. For sweep knock off 1 attack and add three or four attacks witout 35 points of dmg. The S&S talent may be a little more tricky since they are slower then a regular attack.

Definitely not that simple. You seem to imply that 2H talents take the same time to complete as normal 2H swings. I'd ask you, WHICH normal 2H swing? Different 2H weapons have different "normal" swing times. And are we even sure that the talent animations don't change for different 2H weapons?

Furthermore, the issue is complicated by: 1) IAS effects - one swing will not necessarily be the same animation speed as sunder, depending on IAS. 2) Burst cancelling. I have no idea how much extra time you gain from this (and no, neither do you ;o ). We can probably say it is somewhere between 20-50% of the previous attack animation, but that's not nearly exact enough for my taste.

Modifié par traversc, 22 avril 2010 - 01:21 .

[beancounter501]

^^ Someone once told me good enough was the enemy of perfection. To me that method is good enough. You are welcome to do time studies if you like. Too many factors enter into the actual dmg calcultion to really arrive at a solid number.

The best comparison method  is the one Bioware Devs said they used - actually comparing how two different characters fought an encounter.

Modifié par beancounter501, 22 avril 2010 - 02:31 .

[traversc]

beancounter501 wrote...

^^ Someone once told me good enough was the enemy of perfection. To me that method is good enough. You are welcome to do time studies if you like. Too many factors enter into the actual dmg calcultion to really arrive at a solid number.

The best comparison method  is the one Bioware Devs said they used - actually comparing how two different characters fought an encounter.

You speak as if getting this kind of info is really hard or something.  It's not.  It takes 2-3 minutes of video capture.  http://social.biowar...92872/2#2333238

Secondly, I'm not asking for perfection.  I'm asking for reasonable estimates.  Using your method, you potentially overestimate the relative DPS of sunder by 200-300%.  With BT/Haste, sunder may not even add DPS!  These are not reasonable estimates. 

[Hulk Hsieh]

My biggest concern on S/S DPS build is that it is like a poorman's duel-wield build.

The whole idea is based on "fast auto swinging single hand weapon", which is exactly the idea of duel-wield warrior, who actually does it better.

[mosspit]

^ Yes. Auto-atk favors SnS. Talents-spam favors 2H. Single target favours SnS. Multi-target favors 2H.

[mosspit]

traversc wrote...

beancounter501 wrote...

^^ Someone once told me good enough was the enemy of perfection. To me that method is good enough. You are welcome to do time studies if you like. Too many factors enter into the actual dmg calcultion to really arrive at a solid number.

The best comparison method  is the one Bioware Devs said they used - actually comparing how two different characters fought an encounter.

You speak as if getting this kind of info is really hard or something.  It's not.  It takes 2-3 minutes of video capture.  http://social.biowar...92872/2#2333238

Secondly, I'm not asking for perfection.  I'm asking for reasonable estimates.  Using your method, you potentially overestimate the relative DPS of sunder by 200-300%.  With BT/Haste, sunder may not even add DPS!  These are not reasonable estimates. 

If bean is really so "incomplete" in his tests and calculations, wldn't it be better if you did it yourself? Your defence in not doing tests yourself is mostly from an angle that you are will be possibly shot down due "not doing it right"?. As far as I can tell, that is precisely what you are doing to bean.

[traversc]

mosspit wrote...

If bean is really so "incomplete" in his tests and calculations, wldn't it be better if you did it yourself? Your defence in not doing tests yourself is mostly from an angle that you are will be possibly shot down due "not doing it right"?. As far as I can tell, that is precisely what you are doing to bean.

Yes, but he hasn't done the test.  So I feel free to shoot him down all I want.  *pew*pew*pew*

[mosspit]

traversc wrote...

mosspit wrote...

If bean is really so "incomplete" in his tests and calculations, wldn't it be better if you did it yourself? Your defence in not doing tests yourself is mostly from an angle that you are will be possibly shot down due "not doing it right"?. As far as I can tell, that is precisely what you are doing to bean.

Yes, but he hasn't done the test.  So I feel free to shoot him down all I want.  *pew*pew*pew*

Cute. So are you saying you won't "shoot" him down if he does the "test"?

Modifié par mosspit, 22 avril 2010 - 07:23 .

[soteria]

From what I've seen in this thread, any of us has as great or greater chance of getting "shot down" from doing your test as you do, travers. If there's anyone who has been nitpicking at other peoples' theories and tests, it's you. So why should we be the ones to put ourselves out there? Grow a pair and do the test yourself, or stop asking about it.