183 réponses à ce sujet

[jsachun]

S+S or W+S warrior can do decent damage provided that you use the Berserker ability. Here is an example of my champion/berserker who has done decent damage and would've done more if I had decided to specialise on The Berserker at level 7 instead of 14. 

Modifié par jsachun, 22 avril 2010 - 11:10 .

[beancounter501]

Hulk Hsieh wrote...

My biggest concern on S/S DPS build is that it is like a poorman's duel-wield build.
The whole idea is based on "fast auto swinging single hand weapon", which is exactly the idea of duel-wield warrior, who actually does it better.

I agree, an auto attack S&S is just a poor mans Dual Weld build.  And a Dual Weld Warrior would do way more dmg, plus he has Whirlwind & dual sweep.

@Trav - just do the test.  I do not have Fraps installed and I really don't feel like installing it just to run some tests.  Also, I don't use animation canceling with a 2 Hand Warrior.  I can not be bothered with that much micro in the middle of a pitched battle.  Just run the tests.  Actually, you should run the tests for S&S, 2 Hand and Dual Weld.  Then we could compare all three.

Modifié par beancounter501, 22 avril 2010 - 11:43 .

[traversc]

mosspit wrote...
Cute. So are you saying you won't "shoot" him down if he does the "test"?

Exactly! 

soteria wrote...

From what I've seen in this thread, any
of us has as great or greater chance of getting "shot down" from doing
your test as you do, travers. If there's anyone who has been nitpicking
at other peoples' theories and tests, it's you. So why should we be
the ones to put ourselves out there? Grow a pair and do the test
yourself, or stop asking about it.

See, this is the kind of thing I meant when I said you earlier you were being childish.  "Grow a pair?"  I haven't heard that IRL since I was in 5th grade.  Do you honestly think I care so much that I'd feel it in my testicles if you shot me down?  I mean, obviously, I do care to an extent, but it's not like I'll lose sleep over it. 

My reasons for asking YOU guys to do it are 1) you're better at it than me, and 2) less bias.  I really don't understand why you feel this is so much to ask.  

Secondly, I'm not nitpicking.  Nitpicking would be "OMG OMG you didn't ROUND properly" or "OMG it's 115 STR, not 114."  That's not even close to what I said.  The potential margin of error of sunder DPS ( by simply adding an attack, less runes) is HUGE. 

Using this method, you're estimating relative DPS to be ~150 * 2/185 = ~1.7.  But considering animation speed, it could very well be (150*2/2.55)/(185/1.4) = ~0.9.  A margin of error of nearly 200%. 

Modifié par traversc, 22 avril 2010 - 05:46 .

[soteria]

It's a figure of speech, indicating that I think you should gather the necessary courage to do something you think might have unpleasant consequences. I really don't care when you heard what, when. You understood me, right? But, you're still not willing to do the test, out of fear that we're going to criticize your playstyle... well, I haven't criticized the way you play this whole thread, though you've already told me I'm bad for not using bloodthirst and haste, so I'd say if we want precedent for that...

You've been nitpicking. Off the top of my head, asking for crit to be including in calculations earlier in the thread and then later saying it doesn't even matter. But who cares? If you're not going to do your test, then stop talking about it.

Modifié par soteria, 22 avril 2010 - 09:29 .

[traversc]

soteria wrote...
But, you're still not willing to do the test, out of fear that we're going to criticize your playstyle...

Yeah... no. lol.  Are you for real dude?  I mean, seriously, "fear"?

well, I haven't criticized the way you play this whole thread, though you've already told me I'm bad for not using bloodthirst and haste, so I'd say if we want precedent for that...

Look, the whole 1/2 of this thread was basically a flamefest on both sides.  When I get criticized by you and others for being terrible, not knowing how to play the game, an idiot, a troll etc., I'm going to strike back.  You are the one who seems intent on dragging this style of debate back to the present. 

You've been nitpicking. Off the top of my head, asking for crit to be including in calculations earlier in the thread and then later saying it doesn't even matter. But who cares? If you're not going to do your test, then stop talking about it.

Crit rate is approx. 15%.  That represents about a ~10% error.  That's not small,by any definition.  Nitpicking is arguing about something that has a completely marginal effect. 

Also, "the test" as you call it: I'll stop talking about figuring out different parameters for 2H talents when you stop mentioning them as reason that the numbers aren't really as one-sided in favor of S/S as they appear.

Modifié par traversc, 22 avril 2010 - 11:15 .

[mosspit]

traversc wrote...

mosspit wrote...
Cute. So are you saying you won't "shoot" him down if he does the "test"?

Exactly! 

Is hyperbole involved? So as long one conform to what you want, he/she will be "spared" from criticisms? As far I can tell, the person in this thread who is most interested to know the "test" result is... well you. Some of us have already pointed out how inconclusive we think the test will be. You disagree. I don't see any problems here.

Modifié par mosspit, 22 avril 2010 - 11:21 .

[traversc]

Let me preface this by saying, you all are lazy punk *** ******* ****. God damn, I swear to god.





Here are some results: 1) All talents have the same animation time which is approximately equal to normal attack swing animation. Not sure if it's different for different weapons, but at least for CGM, it's is almost assuredly 2.55s. 2) It is not possible to burst cancel a talent animation with another talent. 2) Burst cancel removes ~20% of the previous attack animation given.

So the question remains: are talents worth using? With just BT, effective attack speed of talents is 2.55-2.04*0.2=2.142s. Still less than auto-attack speed, but still fast enough to make a difference. Let's say we do ~120 dmg, 155 with flame + runes. Using these numbers, critical strike probably averages around ~180 dmg.

Sunder = 120*2/2.142 = 112 effective DPS
CS = 180/2.142 = 84 eDPS
Auto-attack = 155/2.04 = 76 DPS

Quite clearly, yes for sunder. Maybe not worth the stamina for CS?

With BT/Haste:
Effective attack speed is 2.55 - 0.2*1.4025 = 2.2695s. Yes, talents are effectively SLOWER with more IAS, due to cancelling less of the auto-attack. Note that the REAL attack speed attack of talents, as previously noted, is still 2.55s. In other words, you are still doing strictly more DPS with more IAS no matter what, but talents have less of an effect than they do before.

On the other hand, this means, MAYBE, that using precise striking with 2H is a keen idea.

Sunder = 120*2/2.2695 = 106 eDPS
CS = 180/2.2695 = 79.3 eDPS
Auto-attack = 155/1.4025 = 110 DPS

Neither sunder nor CS are worth using in normal circumstances. Sunder ARMOR may be worth using against high armor'ed targets.  To conclude, the only talent worth using on a regular basis is 2H-sweep - and only if you can bunch up 3 or more targets. 

Modifié par traversc, 23 avril 2010 - 05:40 .

[Hundbert]

I finished awakening on hard mode with me as a sword and shield tank using shield fortress, Justice as a sword and shield damager using shield defence, Nathaniel Howe as archer and Velanna as healer.

Modifié par Hundbert, 23 avril 2010 - 02:58 .

[Loc'n'lol]

Congratulations ? Must have been really easy ?

[Hundbert]

Well i enjoyed it. Tis what matters right?

I still had to reload a couple of times when two partymembers got overwhelmed and the fight against the dragon. I'd say awakening was fairly balanced but that's for another thread.

On topic: My biggest concern with 1h and shield is that it's hard to setup any decent tactis for the offensive attacks. I ended up manually controlling Justice because of that.

Modifié par Hundbert, 23 avril 2010 - 05:22 .

[DecayingLight]

So with all the math and other stuff in here and no one has put up a "build"?

I dont care who does more damage-2h or s/s.

I just wanna know if I can make a decent s/s dps and it be fun to play.

And i wanna know what someones build of it would be-stat wise and all.

[jsachun]

soteria wrote...

Well, sunder arms and sunder armor have a cooldown of 10 seconds, plus mighty blow and 2h sweep with a cooldown of 20 seconds, so that's quite a bit more talent usage. If all the 2h warrior uses is the two sunders, he's already ahead.

I think this actually works against a Two hander in a sense that they have to spend more points on will to do decent damage when they could be spending more points on strength. S & S only have 4 active talents & 3 of those do multiple strikes, which makes it quite useful as a DPS. Most enemies should be dead by use of just one these talents except shield bash. 

With Dual wielders, the stamina cost of all talents become reduced after getting the Dual Weapon Mastery so they can be dashing out damage all day with active talents with relatively low stamina pool, I don't believe there are any passive talents for a Two Hander that reduces the stamina cost of TH talents. 

Modifié par jsachun, 24 avril 2010 - 02:56 .

[Hulk Hsieh]

DecayingLight wrote...

So with all the math and other stuff in here and no one has put up a "build"?
I dont care who does more damage-2h or s/s.
I just wanna know if I can make a decent s/s dps and it be fun to play.
And i wanna know what someones build of it would be-stat wise and all.

The S/S build discussed here is an "auto-attack" build, which means there are less talent usage and interaction.
This is good if you don't plan to control the character much and let AI handle it.
But if you plan to direct control the character most of the time, it would be a more boring build than most.

Modifié par Hulk Hsieh, 24 avril 2010 - 12:55 .

[beancounter501]

^Actually, a strengh bases S&S character is more fun to play then a dex one. With a high strength your talents do a lot of dmg and you have a solid chance for knockdowns and stuns. Unlike a dex tank who is mind numbing boring to play. Everything is not about DPS, knocking down and stunning a melee lieutenant is pretty important! Also, the dmg numbers shown above do not really occur until really late game. Not like you get a weapon with three rune slots and three grandmaster runes until late game. Or if you even have a mage in your party to buff you.



Still, he does not have as much talent spam as a two hand or dual weld.



For build - that is easy. Strength until 42, then dex to 26 then all of the rest into strength. Take Berserker spec at level 7. Champion at level 14.



A solid build that is very competive. Plus, he has a lot of staying power since you can activate Shield Wall or Defense depending on the circumstances. That is how I built Alistar in my last playthrough.



One last thought - has anyone actually verified that Shield Wall drops dm by 20%? I looked through the scripts and I never saw a reference to it actually being implemented.

[Random70]

beancounter501 wrote...
One last thought - has anyone actually verified that Shield Wall drops dm by 20%? I looked through the scripts and I never saw a reference to it actually being implemented.

Good question. The 20% penalty is not shown 'on screen' but Wiki says its factored in anyway.
Everything on wiki is totally accurate, every time, right?

[Nooneyouknow13]

Not the most scientific test, I'll double check when I get to a boss as well, but Shield Wall on or off makes no noticeable difference in damage vs the darkspawn as I go over the bridge in the Dead Trenches.

On that note, the crits of Overpower seem to do nearly identical damage to the hits from Assualt on the same mobs.

Modifié par Nooneyouknow13, 24 avril 2010 - 06:01 .

[jsachun]

^ I think it gets offset by the added bonus to damage you receive once you have shield mastery. Yes, I have noticed it in early levels of the game where it's sort of impractical have it on as it does not give you immunity to direct knockdown till you get shield expertise & and has a big stamina cost.

There has been a bug since patch 1.02, damage done by assault still reduces with each hit even after obtaining Shield Mastery when it should be scaling up with each hit and hasn't been fixed in 1.03.

Modifié par jsachun, 24 avril 2010 - 11:45 .

[beancounter501]

Assault has always been kind of bugged. It gives four hits at 60% dmg. Shield Mastery gives a maximized dmg role on the Weapon Dmg. Which is like 2 to 4 pts max. A total joke.



The two talents that really benefit is Shield Bash & Shield Pummel. They get a massive bonus from Shield Mastery.



I ran further searches on all of the scripts and I could not find a single reference to any dmg debuff due to shield wall. It is defined in the talent variable constants, but I never see that applied anywhere. Or someone could run ten attacks with wall and without it.

[jsachun]

beancounter501 wrote...

Assault has always been kind of bugged. It gives four hits at 60% dmg. Shield Mastery gives a maximized dmg role on the Weapon Dmg. Which is like 2 to 4 pts max. A total joke.

 

Actually it use to outdamage all the other active talents once Shield Mastery was obtained. I think Bioware may have buged it so all those PCs with low constitution don't get killed with one assault attack from a high level npc.

Modifié par jsachun, 25 avril 2010 - 12:05 .

[beancounter501]

@Travs - What is the time for the S&S Talents? I always though Bash was really quick, but the other three were fairly dragged out. I am curious if that is correct.



For the two hand talents & haste - no real suprise there. Haste and double haste make auto attacks crush talents.



Hopefully for DA2 we will get Runes triggers on Talents Plus speed bonus on talents. Hmm, I may have to work on a mod for those two. It is getting on my nerves and I have not really written a mod in a while. Scripting DA is a lot funner then coding for work.

[beancounter501]

jsachun wrote...
Actually it use to outdamage all the other active talents once Shield Mastery was obtained. I think Bioware may have buged it so all those PCs with low constitution don't get killed with one assault attack from a high level npc.

OK, I will take your word for it.  I did not get DA until close to Jan.  I think that was when patch 1.02 was out.  I orginally hated playing Two Hand and Dual Weld - well still do on Dual Weld.  Feels so cheesy.  But Bioware has ALWAYS favored Dual Weld.  One of my pet peaves with them.  No matter what game I have played the strongest warior was always a Dual Weld.  Even though that is the MOST unrealistic combat form.

[Random70]

beancounter501 wrote...
I ran further searches on all of the scripts and I could not find a single reference to any dmg debuff due to shield wall. It is defined in the talent variable constants, but I never see that applied anywhere. Or someone could run ten attacks with wall and without it.

Ok, more numbers. For character build, see page 2 of this thread. Only the sustains listed here were used. Auto attack only. Avg. of 25 hits. I tracked crits separately so as not to skew data.

*No sustain*
Crit - 133
Normal - High: 90  Low: 68  Avg: 79.21

*With Shield Defense only*
Crit - 135
Normal - High: 90  Low: 67  Avg: 79.71

*With Shield Wall only*
Crit - 125, 122
Normal - High: 89  Low: 64  Avg: 78.39

Apparently, both the Tooltip and Wiki are incorrect. Shocking.

[traversc]

LOL this is the first time anyone has pointed this out, isn't? That's pretty impressive that a bug like that would go unnoticed for so long.

[Nooneyouknow13]

Until I got the more detailed tool tip add on, I could have sworn Shield Mastery used to say something about removing the damage penalty from shield wall, so I simply never bothered to check. That said, I had also thought it was supposed to be a speed penalty. I was more concerned with the two hand talents before this thread, as that's my preferred warrior style. Well that and single blade, but DA massively fails to support single blade at all.



My point earlier was, Overpower says nothing about being at 60% damage, just about being auto crit, and Shield Mastery maximizes the damage rolls. Assault with Maximized damage rolls tends to deal within 1-2 points of damage per hit of Overpower, without the larger font indicating a crit. Can anyone else confirm that outcome?

[beancounter501]

@Random - Truly shocking. Unpatched bugs!  I guess that answers that question.  Go get Shield Wall ASAP for your character. 

Still, Shield Wall does not seem to be as foolproof as Indomitable.  You still Knocked down from things like Earthquake/Grease/Fireball.  But Indomitable does not.  Kind of strange.


@Noone - Assault is at 60% dmg, not Overpower. Check page 2 of this thread with a post by Random70. Random posted the results of several attacks. It could all depend on the weapon you are using.

Modifié par beancounter501, 25 avril 2010 - 11:18 .