142 réponses à ce sujet

[Barquiel]

jlb524 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Liara's role makes no sense (imo)

2 years...and Liara is one of the most important information brokers on Illium.
How???

A wizard did it

What's next?
Sha'ira=asari councilor:wizard:

I like your version better^_^

[jlb524]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

I do find it funny that this thread is marked with "Redemption Spoilers".

Pretty much the entirety of Redemption and it's ending was spoiled by Liara in a few sentences in ME2. <_<

touche!

[Unit-Alpha]

The story began to suck on page 1 of the first one. And it only got worse. Mac Walters did not give it much thought.

[screwoffreg]

So we've pretty much got to the point that its rather crap. I didn't expect to see so much agreement, lol.

Also, ME 2 Liara needs a sit down with Jack to understand the real meaning of hardship and loss.  Then she could tell Liara why if you get a second chance at something, don't be a dumba** and screw it up chasing some dude who was a failure in every way and only by the slightest chance ended up "sacrificing" himself

Modifié par screwoffreg, 16 avril 2010 - 09:19 .

[DukeOfNukes]

well, the spoiler is that Feron IS in fact the one that dies...and that Liara is pretty much the one responsible for leaving him behind. Even in the 4th comic, I was still hoping there would be more to it...find out that the Shadow Broker was holding her "dad" hostage? The friend he killed was her college roommate? He would sell people information, and then a few years later force them to buy the "special edition" where Shepard no longer shoots first?

[screwoffreg]

DukeOfNukes wrote...

well, the spoiler is that Feron IS in fact the one that dies...and that Liara is pretty much the one responsible for leaving him behind. Even in the 4th comic, I was still hoping there would be more to it...find out that the Shadow Broker was holding her "dad" hostage? The friend he killed was her college roommate? He would sell people information, and then a few years later force them to buy the "special edition" where Shepard no longer shoots first?

We are grasping for straws laid down in a lame plot. 

Feron?  Really?  Dude's dead, Liara.  You can somehow give Shepard the cold shoulder as its too weird he's been gone for so long, but you chase a Drell who has no reason to be alive and REPEATEDLY screwed up your mission?

Priorities, people.  Priorities.

[Mike2640]

Hmm, well the way I saw it was that Liara thought that to be able to gather the contacts and resources necessary to find and take down the Shadow Broker, she had to force herself to become someone different. Make a conscious decision to become someone completely opposite of who she was. The Liara we knew wouldn't be able to do what was needed, and she knew it.

This wouldn't be the first story of someone reinventing themselves. Her Benezia line to me seemed to be her just remembering it as a good threat and wanting to use it. She was putting on a show for that person. When Shep walks her response seemed like a "Gwah! How much of that did you see?" kinda deal.

As for her motivations, meh, different people handle things differently. I dont think she's ever had anyone sacrifice themself for her. That kind of thing leaves an impression.

All in all though, while I do think the whole "grimdark" thing is mostly a mask she's hiding behind, she does seem to be in danger of loosing herself in her disguise. Hopefully that will be a major choice in ME3; whether you work to bring out the old Liara in her, or push her over the edge completely.

[Nozybidaj]

screwoffreg wrote...

DukeOfNukes wrote...

well, the spoiler is that Feron IS in fact the one that dies...and that Liara is pretty much the one responsible for leaving him behind. Even in the 4th comic, I was still hoping there would be more to it...find out that the Shadow Broker was holding her "dad" hostage? The friend he killed was her college roommate? He would sell people information, and then a few years later force them to buy the "special edition" where Shepard no longer shoots first?

We are grasping for straws laid down in a lame plot. 

Feron?  Really?  Dude's dead, Liara.  You can somehow give Shepard the cold shoulder as its too weird he's been gone for so long, but you chase a Drell who has no reason to be alive and REPEATEDLY screwed up your mission?

Priorities, people.  Priorities.

Priorities?  Priorities you say!  We got GRIMDARK, we don't need none of your stickin' priorities!  Priorities are for characters with thought out and believable progressions.  We snub our nose in the general direction of your "priorities".

[TMA LIVE]

Mike2640 wrote...

Hmm, well the way I saw it was that Liara thought that to be able to gather the contacts and resources necessary to find and take down the Shadow Broker, she had to force herself to become someone different. Make a conscious decision to become someone completely opposite of who she was. The Liara we knew wouldn't be able to do what was needed, and she knew it.

The problem isn't really why she became the way she is, it's more of "Why is the Shadow Broker this important to you, that you're doing all this?" She tells you the Shadow Broker took her friend, tried to sell your body, and nearly killed her. And that does sound like something (though not much), but she's very vague about it, and won't go into the specifics. So you read the comic, and read about the things everyone's already talked about in this thread, and wonder "Wait. You've been trying to kill this guy for 2 years, and won't help me, just because he "might" have Feron, and because "him trying to selling my dead body" disgusted you?" Like her motive for revenge isn't justified because the Shadow Broker doesn't really do anything to make her this hell bent on killing him. Hell, for all we know, the Shadow Broker doesn't even have Feron. It's also werid that she makes no attempt to give the same amount of revenge on the Collectors, who were the real ones responsible for the hell she's been through, as well as Shepard's death, and the ones that grab Feron, AND the ones that are helping to destroy the galaxy. You could say she's doing it to get data on the Collector's, but after the hidden dialogue, what she finds isn't much. Thus, zero of everything she has done has ever payed off.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 17 avril 2010 - 11:43 .

[Nozybidaj]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Thus, zero of everything she has done has ever payed off.

All joking aside, the whole Liara story for ME2 was done so horribly that it feels like it was just all thrown together at the last minute.

I'd ask, in all seriousness, if the whole thing is just a big joke from BW and Mac or if we are actually supposed to take her cameo in ME2 and the Redemption comic seriously?  

I keep expecting them to pop up and go "Hahaha, fooled you guys, no really, just forget everything we did with Liara up to this point, here is the expansion with her "real" story.  Man we really got you guys good."

Or they are just making fun of Liara fans and the folks who were looking forward to an actual story involving her in ME2.  Its one thing to just ignore a character (like Ash/Kaidan), it is very much another to actively antagonize fans of said character.  I do feel at times like BW is just having too much fun poking Liara fans with a stick to see if we are dead yet

So, I guess I'm just kinda left wondering, was it all a joke?  Was it all supposed to be serious?  Or are we just being mocked?  I honestly couldn't give an accurate answer to those questions at this point.

[RiouHotaru]

Nightwriter wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

... Maybe Benezia's consciousness left her body upon death and took possession of Liara?

Which is why she says, "Have you ever faced an asari commando unit? Few humans have" when she's threatening that guy?

Oh, oh, and now Liara and Benezia are both fighting for control, making Liara kiss you one minute and pull away the next, and change direction and mood on a dime!

Or maybe it's just Asari PMS but unlike humans it lasts for years.

In all seriousness I think people are forgetting something; Liara's never been a strong person.  Think about it most Asari her age run off and become mercs, strippers, adventurers, etc they seek out excitement.  Liara on the other hand chose to hide from the galaxy in Prothean dig sites.  Now Shepard's death (LI or not Shepard was a big part of her life at the time) would have shaken her, a lot, and her dealing with that explains her erratic behaviour in the comic (haven't read it myself but it's been mentioned).  Now on top of that she had to abandon Feron and her guilt over that explains her obsession with the Shadow Broker.  In short she was hit with a lot of stuff, in fairly rapid succession (Death of her mother, revelation of the Reapers, death of Shepard, recovery of Shepard, abandonment of Feron), that she was never prepared to deal with, and surprise she's not handling it well.  Now because she's not strong, and knows she's not, she's attempting to emulate those she views as strong, mainly her mother.

Note my statement that Liara is not strong is a matter of personal opinion and not meant as an attack on the character.

Seems like every explanation I hear about this involves someone saying we must remember Liara is a weak character.   I dunno whether that's true or applicable or not. I'm no Liara expert.

What I think we should remember is that, regardless of whether you romanced Liara or not, she fell for you. She loves you. She fell for Shepard, male or female, and had a crush on you from the beginning - you were important to her whether you felt the same way or not. 

We're not saying she's weak.  Just that she's not like the rest of the crew, most of which have dealt with things ranging from military skirmishes to having to struggle for your day-to-day survival.  She mentions herself that she at most has had to deal with random scavengers and pirates and local fauna.  But saving the galaxy?  Killing her mother?  Losing someone dear to her?  All within the span of 2 years? (Which is like the blink of an eye to her) That can have quite an impact.

[RiouHotaru]

 

TMA LIVE wrote...

Mike2640 wrote...

Hmm, well the way I saw it was that Liara thought that to be able to gather the contacts and resources necessary to find and take down the Shadow Broker, she had to force herself to become someone different. Make a conscious decision to become someone completely opposite of who she was. The Liara we knew wouldn't be able to do what was needed, and she knew it. 

The problem isn't really why she became the way she is, it's more of "Why is the Shadow Broker this important to you, that you're doing all this?" She tells you the Shadow Broker took her friend, tried to sell your body, and nearly killed her. And that does sound like something (though not much), but she's very vague about it, and won't go into the specifics. So you read the comic, and read about the things everyone's already talked about in this thread, and wonder "Wait. You've been trying to kill this guy for 2 years, and won't help me, just because he "might" have Feron, and because "him trying to selling my dead body" disgusted you?" Like her motive for revenge isn't justified because the Shadow Broker doesn't really do anything to make her this hell bent on killing him. Hell, for all we know, the Shadow Broker doesn't even have Feron. It's also werid that she makes no attempt to give the same amount of revenge on the Collectors, who were the real ones responsible for the hell she's been through, as well as Shepard's death, and the ones that grab Feron, AND the ones that are helping to destroy the galaxy. You could say she's doing it to get data on the Collector's, but after the hidden dialogue, what she finds isn't much. Thus, zero of everything she has done has ever payed off.

Except that likely not even the Shadow Broker has any good information on the Collectors.  Remember, TIM is basically the SB's counterpart in terms of intelligence and TIM knew just about precisely jack s*** about the Collectors.  Why would Liara spend all that time chasing down an enigmatic race that hides behind an unusable Mass Relay?  It's easier to track down the one who is reponsible for giving the Collector's information on tracking down Shepard to kill him/her, the one responsible for trying to sell his/her corpse to the Collectors despite know the Collectors are a bad thing (Srsly, the Shadow Broker should be labeled as Too Dumb To Live).  Also, is it hard to understand that Feron might be a better friend that the comics or the game let on?  I mean really  we're all treating him like he's just some random dude, but it's clear he's not.  The Shadow Broker is the clear and present target, the one who is for all intents and purposes responsible for all this crap.  So, being the distraught and angry person Liara has become, she decides "You need to die, sir."

How is this in any way shape or form confusing or unusual?  Heck, if I were Shepard I'd want to kill him too if I found out he was the reason I died.

[Rocket Weazle]

Seeing as how Bioware almost overreact to criticisms, I imagine Kaidan/Ash and Liara save the universe in ME3

[OverlordNexas]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Except that likely not even the Shadow Broker has any good information on the Collectors.  Remember, TIM is basically the SB's counterpart in terms of intelligence and TIM knew just about precisely jack s*** about the Collectors.  Why would Liara spend all that time chasing down an enigmatic race that hides behind an unusable Mass Relay?  It's easier to track down the one who is reponsible for giving the Collector's information on tracking down Shepard to kill him/her, the one responsible for trying to sell his/her corpse to the Collectors despite know the Collectors are a bad thing (Srsly, the Shadow Broker should be labeled as Too Dumb To Live).

I'm not following you here. Are you saying that that Liara should chase after the Shadow Broker even though he probably  doesn't know anything of value about the Collectors? Also how is he and idiot for dealing with them? The Collectors offered something of extreme value to the SB to recover Shep's body so he did it. Sure the Collectors were hardly nice people, but its not as if anyone knew they were tied to the Reapers.

RiouHotaru wrote...

Also, is it hard to understand that Feron might be a better friend that the comics or the game let on?  I mean really  we're all treating him like he's just some random dude, but it's clear he's not.  The Shadow Broker is the clear and present target, the one who is for all intents and purposes responsible for all this crap.  So, being the distraught and angry person Liara has become, she decides "You need to die, sir."

How is this in any way shape or form confusing or unusual?  Heck, if I were Shepard I'd want to kill him too if I found out he was the reason I died.

Except the comics are all we have to go on. Liara spends the first three issues hating Feron's guts, and then all of a sudden he becomes her best friend who is apparently worthy of her going on a roaring rampage of revenge for.

Also the SB had nothing to do with Shepard's death. He was only contracted to retrieve the body.  Honestly I really can't blame him for taking the deal, and my Shepard harbors no ill will towards the Shadow Broker.

Modifié par OverlordNexas, 18 avril 2010 - 12:03 .

[RiouHotaru]

OverlordNexas wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Except that likely not even the Shadow Broker has any good information on the Collectors.  Remember, TIM is basically the SB's counterpart in terms of intelligence and TIM knew just about precisely jack s*** about the Collectors.  Why would Liara spend all that time chasing down an enigmatic race that hides behind an unusable Mass Relay?  It's easier to track down the one who is reponsible for giving the Collector's information on tracking down Shepard to kill him/her, the one responsible for trying to sell his/her corpse to the Collectors despite know the Collectors are a bad thing (Srsly, the Shadow Broker should be labeled as Too Dumb To Live).

I'm not following you here. Are you saying that that Liara should chase after the Shadow Broker even though he probably  doesn't know anything of value about the Collectors? Also how is he and idiot for dealing with them? The Collectors offered something of extreme value to the SB to recover Shep's body so he did it. Sure the Collectors were hardly nice people, but its not as if anyone knew they were tied to the Reapers.

RiouHotaru wrote...

Also, is it hard to understand that Feron might be a better friend that the comics or the game let on?  I mean really  we're all treating him like he's just some random dude, but it's clear he's not.  The Shadow Broker is the clear and present target, the one who is for all intents and purposes responsible for all this crap.  So, being the distraught and angry person Liara has become, she decides "You need to die, sir."

How is this in any way shape or form confusing or unusual?  Heck, if I were Shepard I'd want to kill him too if I found out he was the reason I died.

Except the comics are all we have to go on. Liara spends the first three issues hating Feron's guts, and then all of a sudden he becomes her best friend who is apparently worthy of her going on a roaring rampage of revenge for.

Also the SB had nothing to do with Shepard's death. He was only contracted to retrieve the body.  Honestly I really can't blame him for taking the deal, and my Shepard harbors no ill will towards the Shadow Broker.

I thought the SB gave them the information on how to find the Normandy.  I mean, how else did they find it?  Seems odd they could somehow randomly track it down through deep space.

[TMA LIVE]

RiouHotaru wrote...

I thought the SB gave them the information on how to find the Normandy.  I mean, how else did they find it?  Seems odd they could somehow randomly track it down through deep space.

The Collector's found and destroyed the Normandy because it was in the area at the wrong time. Remember Joker talking about how 3 ships disappeared in the area? They very investigating to find out if they disappeared because of Geth or Slavers.

The only thing the Shadow Broker did involving Collector's was try to sell Shepard's corpse, because they payed him big money to do it. That's it. And considering it's a dead body, can you blame him?

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 18 avril 2010 - 12:35 .

[mcsupersport]

Why is everyone giving Liara a hard time about not going with Shepard, and yet they give Tali a pass on the first meeting doing the same. It just so happens in the game, Tali's quest ends sooner than Liara's and almost gets Tali killed in the bargain. Yes, Shepard was taken from the SB, yes Liara gave the body to TIM to revive. But I don't think she really believed it would work, and she in her mind, got someone killed on her personal quest, thus she has a personal responsibility in her mind to get revenge for the life lost. Her quest doesn't end as quick as Tali's but it is still something she feels she must do. I understand and even approve of the basic character it displays.

[Hag001]

 The comic could have been so crappier than it was..... Rob Liefeld could have written and drawn it  

Bad thoughts of Liara having no neck, giant thighs, tiny feet and horse teeth..... the horror!!!! 

[Tooneyman]

Yeah it sounds retarded. They better make up for it in ME 3. The shadow broker deals with information on my opinion. Not black market selling a body. There is a definitely a twist in the next game and I hope bioware pulls it out of their Ae's on this one.

[AndroLeonidas]

mcsupersport wrote...

Why is everyone giving Liara a hard time about not going with Shepard, and yet they give Tali a pass on the first meeting doing the same. It just so happens in the game, Tali's quest ends sooner than Liara's and almost gets Tali killed in the bargain. Yes, Shepard was taken from the SB, yes Liara gave the body to TIM to revive. But I don't think she really believed it would work, and she in her mind, got someone killed on her personal quest, thus she has a personal responsibility in her mind to get revenge for the life lost. Her quest doesn't end as quick as Tali's but it is still something she feels she must do. I understand and even approve of the basic character it displays.

No one is giving Tali a pass I don't think. She tells you her mission is in Geth space and to the Quarians that IS important. Given what you were able to give to her in ME1 if you did her quest, her response made perfect sense to me, as well as known factors that she is totally loyal to the Flotilla first and foremost.

[TMA LIVE]

mcsupersport wrote...

Why is everyone giving Liara a hard time about not going with Shepard, and yet they give Tali a pass on the first meeting doing the same. It just so happens in the game, Tali's quest ends sooner than Liara's and almost gets Tali killed in the bargain. Yes, Shepard was taken from the SB, yes Liara gave the body to TIM to revive. But I don't think she really believed it would work, and she in her mind, got someone killed on her personal quest, thus she has a personal responsibility in her mind to get revenge for the life lost. Her quest doesn't end as quick as Tali's but it is still something she feels she must do. I understand and even approve of the basic character it displays.

With Tali, it's because of Cerberus, and her loyalty to her people and family. With Ash, it's almost the same thing, except Tali joins you anyways after her mission, despite Cerberus. With Liara, it's a guy she has only known for a day, and someone who spends most of the time lying to her, and who's been missing for 2 years without a single reason to still be alive. It's the motive. It's just bull no matter what angle you look at.

On a positive note, even though I hate what the comic book did with her character, and how BS her motives are, after reading it, I can no longer romance anyone, because I can't let her go.

[AndroLeonidas]

TMA LIVE wrote...

mcsupersport wrote...

Why is everyone giving Liara a hard time about not going with Shepard, and yet they give Tali a pass on the first meeting doing the same. It just so happens in the game, Tali's quest ends sooner than Liara's and almost gets Tali killed in the bargain. Yes, Shepard was taken from the SB, yes Liara gave the body to TIM to revive. But I don't think she really believed it would work, and she in her mind, got someone killed on her personal quest, thus she has a personal responsibility in her mind to get revenge for the life lost. Her quest doesn't end as quick as Tali's but it is still something she feels she must do. I understand and even approve of the basic character it displays.

With Tali, it's because of Cerberus, and her loyalty to her people and family. With Ash, it's almost the same thing, except Tali joins you anyways after her mission, despite Cerberus. With Liara, it's a guy she has only known for a day, and someone who spends most of the time lying to her, and who's been missing for 2 years without a single reason to still be alive. It's the motive. It's just bull no matter what angle you look at.

On a positive note, even though I hate what the comic book did with her character, and how BS her motives are, after reading it, I can no longer romance anyone, because I can't let her go.

The whole Liara plotline is sas backwards! There is no continuity, no explanations and no results at the end of ME2 like with Ash and Kaiden. Behind Shepard she was the most important character in ME1. Heck... you couldn't complete the game without her help. For lack of a better term, what they did to her character was a total hack job.