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The reason Liara couldn't come...(Redemption Spoilers)


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#101
TMA LIVE

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AndroLeonidas wrote...

The whole Liara plotline is sas backwards! There is no continuity, no explanations and no results at the end of ME2 like with Ash and Kaiden. Behind Shepard she was the most important character in ME1. Heck... you couldn't complete the game without her help. For lack of a better term, what they did to her character was a total hack job.


Yeah. It's just a lame excuse for her not to go on the suicide mission, so she'll be alive in MS3. That's it. And the comic exists more for marketing, and to expand the IP, like the iphone game, the 10 DLC (buy the Collector's Edition/Pre-order/Own Dragon Age/ Buy Dr. Pepper and get cool stuff!) specials, and the toys. I'd include the novels, but I like them.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 18 avril 2010 - 01:53 .


#102
bergerrz

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Slidell505 wrote...

Lost makes more sense then this comic.


WIN

#103
Nozybidaj

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bergerrz wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

Lost makes more sense then this comic.


WIN


It's like the Chewbacca Defense, only in comic book form.

"And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense!"


#104
Jedi Master of Orion

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I have the first issue of the comic with my copy of the Collectors Edition so I knew how Liara's misadventure with Feron started but I didn't know much about what happened after that. i never really had a major issue with Liara being an information Broker on Ilium or with her explanation in the game. But from what I hear the comics really didn't provide an adequate elaboration for her explanation. All I figured was that in the two years since Shepard died, she met somebody important to her and the Shadow Broker killed him. Sounds simple enough to me on paper.



Also, if she's working to take down the Shadow Broker, why did the Illusive Man think she was working for him? He even met her prior to sending her after "him" to retrieve Shepard's body.

#105
Larask

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Jedi Master of Orion wrote...


Also, if she's working to take down the Shadow Broker, why did the Illusive Man think she was working for him? He even met her prior to sending her after "him" to retrieve Shepard's body.


Pft. I never get this either. Maybe TIM's intel isn't as good as we think? :pinched:

#106
Guest_justinnstuff_*

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Larask wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...


Also, if she's working to take down the Shadow Broker, why did the Illusive Man think she was working for him? He even met her prior to sending her after "him" to retrieve Shepard's body.


Pft. I never get this either. Maybe TIM's intel isn't as good as we think? :pinched:


I never trusted TIM. I think he's just throwing shepard a curve ball.

#107
Jedi Master of Orion

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But why would he tell him that then? So he wouldn't go after Liara? Why would he send him right to Ilium to recruit two specialists? Was he hoping that he just wouldn't run into her? What difference would it even make to him if Shepard knew or not? Why couldn't The Illusive Man just say that shes trying to take out Shadow Broker.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 18 avril 2010 - 09:03 .


#108
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Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

But why would he tell him that then? So he wouldn't go after Liara? Why would he send him right to Ilium to recruit two specialists? Was he hoping that he just wouldn't run into her? What difference would it even make to him if Shepard knew or not? Why couldn't The Illusive Man just say that shes trying to take out Shadow Broker.


The only thing I can think of is that Liara is being manipulated and used by the Shadow Broker without her realizing it. Either that, or he lied to you just to keep you focus on the mission. Beyond that, your guess is as good as mine.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 18 avril 2010 - 11:23 .


#109
Nightfish103

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Nozybidaj wrote...

It's like the Chewbacca Defense, only in comic book form.

"And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense!"


The sad thing is, if they had presented Liara's not coming that way I would have at least gotten a good southpark related laugh out of this... As is, I was merely baffled at the laziness of the writing...

#110
Nozybidaj

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Nightfish103 wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

It's like the Chewbacca Defense, only in comic book form.

"And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense!"


The sad thing is, if they had presented Liara's not coming that way I would have at least gotten a good southpark related laugh out of this... As is, I was merely baffled at the laziness of the writing...


Yeah I think most folks would have been happier in the end if when Liara was first brought up in game TIM had just made a nonsensical joke or odd reference about her and she was never seen or heard from again instead of what we actually got. 

Kinda the same thing they did with the fact that they killed the protagonist right at the start of the game.  I mean this could have been a huge theme to run throughout the game and driven some real "dark and edgy" (in a good way) moments off of.

Instead of trying to make a meaningful story out of it though they just brushed it off with "Well, technically I'm undead" jokes and never really mention it in a serious fashion.  Suppose that is a better way to have handled it then what could have been, judging from the rest of the game.  Ultimately, still disappointing they didn't even attempt to actually make it, you know, an important moment.

Typically you don't want to actually kill your protagonist unless you've written yourself into a corner or are intending to drive narrative from it.  Not often you see it "just because".  At least instead of making a complete joke of it they just ignored it for the most part.  Guess we dodged a bullet on that one.

#111
implodinggoat

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Personally I liked the comic since it presented a somewhat hardened Liara who still seemed like the same character we knew in ME1; but it certainly didn't explain what the hell was going on with the madness that Bioware threw at us in ME2.



I mean she spends one mission with some random Drell who spends nearly the entire mission lying to her about the fact that he's working for Cerberus and then commits one mild act of heroism which gets his ass captured or killed and for some reason he becomes more important to her than saving the galaxy with her former lover who saved her life twice once on Therum and again when Shepard saved the entire galaxy at the battle of the Citadel.



ME2 just slaughtered her character plain and simple.

#112
Nightwriter

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implodinggoat, how much time does are we to believe has lapsed between the end of the comics and the beginning of ME2? Do the comics take you all the way up to present day Liara?

#113
GodWood

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implodinggoat wrote...

Personally I liked the comic since it presented a somewhat hardened Liara who still seemed like the same character we knew in ME1.

I disagree with that.
I found the way Redemption Liara presented herself was completely different and out of character to how Liara was in ME1.
There was no character developing or hardening of Liara, they simply scrapped her personality and gave her a new one.
Its easiest to notice this if you actually read all of her dialog in your head with her voice.
It feels ridiculous, its like reading Tali's dialog with Wrex's voice...

#114
implodinggoat

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Nightwriter wrote...

implodinggoat, how much time does are we to believe has lapsed between the end of the comics and the beginning of ME2? Do the comics take you all the way up to present day Liara?


No, it starts about a month after the Normandy gets blown up and covers the events of about a week's time.

#115
Nightwriter

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implodinggoat wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

implodinggoat, how much time does are we to believe has lapsed between the end of the comics and the beginning of ME2? Do the comics take you all the way up to present day Liara?


No, it starts about a month after the Normandy gets blown up and covers the events of about a week's time.


... So a lot could have happened to Liara between then and now - possibly accounting for her behavior?

#116
implodinggoat

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GodWood wrote...

implodinggoat wrote...

Personally I liked the comic since it presented a somewhat hardened Liara who still seemed like the same character we knew in ME1.


I disagree with that.  I found the way Redemption Liara presented herself was completely different and out of character to how Liara was in ME1.  There was no character developing or hardening of Liara, they simply scrapped her personality and gave her a new one.  Its easiest to notice this if you actually read all of her dialog in your head with her voice.  It feels ridiculous, its like reading Tali's dialog with Wrex's voice...


I'll agree its not a perfect characterization, merely vastly superior to the characterization in ME2.  You still don't get any of Liara's cute and nerdy quirks and she definitely comes off feeling more like a soldier than a deadly yet brilliant archeologist; but her ruthlessness is more understandable since she's trying to save Shepard and she's dealing with some real scum to do so.  It feels to me like the sort of character I could see her becoming by the time of ME2 if the comics had show more of the transition from nerdy and somewhat nieve to a more jaded Liara; but I'll agree that she's still nowhere close to being the same Liara that we saw in ME1, which she should be since the events of the comic take place so shortly after the events of ME1.

It still does very little to explain her ME2 transformation though; but since its such a ridiculous and poorly conceived transformation, I'm skeptical that any comic could adequetly explain it.  Frankly Drew Karpashyn could write an entire book on Liara's transformation covering the entire time between ME1 and ME2 and it would still probably come off feeling forced and wierd.

Regardless,  I hope they bring Drew back onto the writing team for ME3 since they clearly don't have anyone on staff who understands the character he created.

#117
implodinggoat

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Nightwriter wrote...

implodinggoat wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

implodinggoat, how much time does are we to believe has lapsed between the end of the comics and the beginning of ME2? Do the comics take you all the way up to present day Liara?


No, it starts about a month after the Normandy gets blown up and covers the events of about a week's time.


... So a lot could have happened to Liara between then and now - possibly accounting for her behavior?


Yes; but I simply don't see anything that would lead her to threaten to flay someone alive simply because they didn't pay the bill she sent them.  That's not the act of a woman obsessed with a cause its the act of a petty thug concerned more with profit than justice and that's not Liara.

It just doesn't make any sense and regardless asking the player to invent something to explain a character transformation is a clear sign of poor writing and in my opinion Liara's appearance is easily the most poorly written part of ME2.

BTW: On an unrelated side note if there are any Liara fan's here you might like this Wallpaper I made.  I did it in a comic book sort of style, so I figured this might be an appropriate place for it.

http://implodinggoat...Liara-161106377
Image IPB

Modifié par implodinggoat, 19 avril 2010 - 01:08 .


#118
RyuGuitarFreak

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My vision of what happened:



Liara went after Shepard's body. Shadow Broker trading Shepard's body with Collector's. Feron helps Liara. Feron sacrifices himself for Liara to go with Shepard's body. Liara VERY pissed off about Shadow Broker for their deal with the Collectors AND getting Feron. Liara saw what Shadow Broker is capable of and realized its ruthlessness. She wants do something about it and wants to help Feron. She trusts Shepard to handle the Collectors. End.



ME Redemption was weak on its story? Yes. Liara's reasons for not going were weak? No, but she could have gone with Shep for the suicide mission and then get back to her work. ¬¬



HELL, her recruitment/loyalty missions could be about it.

#119
Garuda One

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I heard the author of the comics is going to be a main writer for anymore story for the games.

#120
Arturia Pendragon

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I'd like to point out that the script for the comic was written by John Jackson Miller, not Mac Walters. Mac gets his name on the cover for being the Lead Writer of the source material (Mass Effect 2), but the comic itself is Miller's baby. JJM is a veteran Star Wars writer, which explains a lot of how and why Liara was presented the way she was. If you pretend Liara's a Grey Jedi, it all makes sense. Miller must have never played ME1 because she's not (a Grey Jedi). Odds are JJM asked Mac what a "biotics-user" was in the Mass Effect universe and he replied with something like "think of a Jedi without the lightsaber."

All in all, I despise unLiara. Image IPB

Modifié par Arturia Pendragon, 19 avril 2010 - 04:06 .


#121
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I actually didn't mind the comics. I thought they were ok. My only problem is there link to Mass Effect 2 as the reason for the current Liara. It's just doesn't add up. Reading them makes me think we'd probably run into Liara going more commando then desk girl, breaking into buildings, blowing **** up like some warrior-avenger, just to save this guy. She even asks for your help. Instead, she forms a information business, and runs things mafia style.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 19 avril 2010 - 04:51 .


#122
Unit-Alpha

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The real reason she couldn't come is that if she did, the writers might wreak her plotline and characterization even more. She obviously had to avoid that.

#123
ramdog7

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jlb524 wrote...

The Redemption storyline was just as crappy and contrived as the rest of ME2 story. I wouldn't expect any better.

Image IPB

#124
Terraneaux

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ramdog7 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

The Redemption storyline was just as crappy and contrived as the rest of ME2 story. I wouldn't expect any better.

Image IPB


No, it makes sense.  ME1 is like The Dark Knight Returns.  ME2 is like The Dark Knight Strikes Again.

#125
ramdog7

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Terraneaux wrote...

ramdog7 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

The Redemption storyline was just as crappy and contrived as the rest of ME2 story. I wouldn't expect any better.

Image IPB


No, it makes sense.  ME1 is like The Dark Knight Returns.  ME2 is like The Dark Knight Strikes Again.

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