177 réponses à ce sujet

[Nukenin]

I want all the fixes in one pack, invalidating the work of everyone in the community to this point, and I want that pack to be called Patch 1.04. 

Anywho, I've only got my own fixes, Qwinn's, and tmp7704's Dalish female armour fix installed.  I normally try to err towards "mod-light" so a comprehensive fixpack for vanilla plot bugs is definitely something that appeals to me.  I don't want to cultivate a veritable catalog of fixes and addons.  I may not be alone in this.  Others do want to pile on tons of little individual fixes and hacks.  They may not be alone in that.

I see no reason why comprehensive fixpacks and individual companion or other specific fixes cannot coexist in the community.  Ideally, the authors will try to cooperate where they can and not get their feathers ruffled.  Play the propriety game, not the proprietary game.

[ejoslin]

Qwinn1234, I have to admit, I always play females who romance Zevran, so Alistair I've only tried to make WORK and be non-immersion breaking. For instance, at the gates and post-coronation, if the male warden has performed the ritual, Alistair doesn't mention it at all. I felt this was better than him sometimes knowing, sometimes not knowing. For female wardens, the conditions that are there seem to work fine. Your way does seem a lot cleaner. Alistair was not my focus, and was only worked on there because of the incompatibility with other mods that address that part of the game.



party_events.dlg is just such a hotbed because there are SO many errors to it. Zevran's dialog doesn't trigger properly, there are problems with Alistair's and Morrigan's dialogs as well, the buggy post-landsmeet conversation and of course there are the missing kisses. Another modder has been working with my party_events.dlg and is adding custom cutscene kisses for the companions there as indicated by the script notes.



I have a current Alistair_mainb2b.rar up on my project page, but it's for another modder who wanted changes to Alistair in Ostegar, so it does have a few changes there -- mainly a conversation tree about the joining is unlocked and scripted approval is added. I believe these were probably taken out of the game deliberately, so I can also put an alistair_mainb2b.rar up there for you which does not have those changes. I'll put your name in the description. It's still in open beta, so there may be still some errors in it. But yes, the more compatible we all can be, the better. I'll also put a copy of the script files I have changed in the archive I put up there for you. You may notice in the genpt_zevran_defined.nss it's appears to be missing an int statement in the first condition, but with Zevran, his "friendly" and "love" flags both seem to be attached to his "friendly" flag (there's nothing wrong with his "in love" flag fortunately, so I was able to work around that). The party_eventsb2b.rar that is up there is my most recent one.



This project is http://social.biowar.../project/2402/.

[Sensorie]

Much like the BG2 Fixpack (and Baldurdash), ideally an all-encompassing pack of fixes should be the base upon which all other mods are built, and that requires a collaborative community effort if compatibility is to be considered. I can understand mod authors wishing to receive prominent recognition for their work as opposed to auxiliary acknowledgement in a mass paragraph of credits, but I for one do not wish to download and install a horde of various fixes just to experience the vanilla game.



Regarding picking and choosing which fixes one would want to install, again like the BG2 Fixpack, the fixes could be grouped into separate components. One could be core fixes addressing true bugs, and the other could be optional changes that address ambiguous developer intent.



BioWare are still releasing patches which will undoubtedly complicate matters even further.

[ejoslin]

I am extremely sympathetic to people not wanting to download a ton of mods. That's why I am working with modders very openly -- I have put a TON of work into ZDF, but ultimately, it's about enjoying the game.



I know of three modders right now who are creating mods that will be compatible with ZDF -- THAT will continue to be my primary focus, working with people to get the best possible fixes. I am hoping that Qwinn1234 is willing to work on areas that I really would prefer not to, and I'd like to work WITH him on files I've already done extensive changes to. I will continue to recommend mods that are based on mine, especially if I think the person authoring them will do a better job than I will.



It doesn't matter if a fixpatch comes out that has a lot of my changes to it (as long as I get credit for my work). I will continue to focus on ZDF, and since there are some wonderful mods either in beta or soon to be in beta based on it, I think this could be a good thing.

[ejoslin]

I will admit, after reading this thread more deeply, I'm a bit taken aback by how much of my work you have duplicated without contacting me first. I am very open to working with you, but your next update looks to try and make my mod obsolete.  

I would like to work with you, but NOT have all my work go to the wayside.

I have been working with other modders in the spirit of cooperation.  The more mods that work together, the better.  But I do not want my work replaced.

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 avril 2010 - 01:22 .

[Charsen]

Qwinn1234 wrote...

Actually, this is correct. It's not a matter of intentionally wanting to amalgamate other people's work, the intent is to fix every bug in the game in one fixpack, however that needs to be done. I think the number of fixes I've already implemented should speak seriously to that intent. If others have done partial work on that - with what is apparently a heavy focus on companion dialogues - then I regret that some may feel I am "undermining" their work by fixing the same bugs, but ... no one owns a bug (except maybe Bioware, heh), and short of just directly taking files from other people's mods and including them in mine without permission (which would be odious, and I would never do that), I don't think I should have to apologize for fixing them in my mod as well.

For the record, in addition to the fact that fixing all bugs was the project's original goal, I should note that several players have already posted *requesting* that I implement fixes for the bugs that are addressed by some existing mods into my own. In fact, it was links from players saying "please fix these same bugs" that led me to discover the mods in question.

I'd like to avoid drama, I really would. Hate the stuff. But I *do* intend to complete the project in it's stated goal ("fix every bug, period"). If existing modders want to pitch in, I think that would be great, and I'm exceedingly happy to extend credit where it's due (as I have already done on the project details page for Nukenin, who very willingly and supportively offered his advice on how to best go about implementing the stealing and dog fetch fix, and whose advice I heeded... I only regret that I didn't include that credit on first release, I should have).

Best way to avoid drama is to simply credit people that you are building your work upon. It's easy. Just include their names and projects in your readme wherever it's applicable. It's polite and it helps build a community.

No one owns a bug, no, but they did put in a lot of time and you are building off of that. Otherwise, I suppose you wouldn't mind if someone took your entire project, added a simple extra fix and claimed it as their own, right?

Good luck with your project, really. Compilations are great, and so are ethics. 

This is not intended as slander or a scolding, it is just an observation based on some of the responses you have received so far. I really do wish you luck with your project, and I am sincere in that.

Modifié par Charsen, 21 avril 2010 - 01:48 .

[Sensorie]

It would make sense to me if everyone worked together on this fixpack, although the logistics of such an endeavour would seem to fall primarily with Qwinn, as he's the one incorporating and coding as many fixes as he possibly can. The BG2 Fixpack credits CamDawg as the project lead, although the thanks and acknowledgements are very clear.



I'm merely suggesting what I think would be best for Dragon Age and its players.

[Qwinn1234]

Sigh. And things were looking so promising.

ejoslin, I've only listed 6 fixes so far that have anything to do with your mod, perhaps 3 of which I first learned about from your project details page. At least 2 of them I first learned about from the wiki, and would have addressed from there eventually either way. At least one of the bugs you fix, I'm fixing in a completely different way, and a second one I'm very likely to fix differently. I didn't download any of your work. And none of the fixes I've done has been released, and probably won't be for a while yet, so nothing has actually happened "without contacting you first" other than me figuring out what the bugs were and fixing them on my own box.

All I did was learn about the bugs (from whatever source was handy, I knew about several from the DA Wiki), investigate them on my own, and fix them by whatever method I deemed best. Yes, I spotted the missing "nresult= true" in the zevran_defined script all by myself. It's a pretty clear bug.

Yes, I went down the list of your project details page to find out what the bugs were... easier that way than hopping from one mod detail page to another. I did not think that simply reading a project detail page would constitute a breach of etiquette.  I didn't even look at the file lists for a guide to where I should look for a problem.

If you would prefer, I'll no longer refer to your project details page as a guide on where to spot bugs, and just look elsewhere to find out what the bugs are.

Charsen:

Otherwise, I suppose you wouldn't mind if someone took your entire project, added a simple extra fix and claimed it as their own, right?

Considering I'm starting with a base of about 50 fixes of my own, only a handful of which I've seen fixed elsewhere, I think that analogy is pretty blatantly unfair right from the start.  The fact that I'm not actually 'taking" anyone's project, just finding out what the bugs are and fixing them myself, makes that analogy *wildly* unfair, IMHO.

No one owns a bug, no, but they did put in a lot of time and you are building off of that.

No, I'm really not, unless just the information that a bug exists counts as something that required a lot of time or that I need to extend credit for.  By this logic, I should credit every wiki page where a bug was reported that I fixed in my first release.

Qwinn

Modifié par Qwinn1234, 21 avril 2010 - 02:21 .

[Nukenin]

From the Dragon Age: Origins EULA, 1.G. "Your Contributions":

In exchange for use of the Software, and to the extent that your contributions through use of the Software give rise to any copyright interest, you hereby grant EA an exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, fully transferable and sub-licensable worldwide right and license to use your contributions in any way and for any purpose in connection with the Software and related goods and services including the rights to reproduce, copy, adapt, modify, perform, display, publish, broadcast, transmit, or otherwise communicate to the public by any means whether now known or unknown and distribute your contributions without any further notice or compensation to you of any kind for the whole duration of protection granted to intellectual property rights by applicable laws and international conventions.  You hereby waive any moral rights of paternity, publication, reputation, or attribution with respect to EA’s and other players’ use and enjoyment of such assets in connection with the Software and related goods and services under applicable law.  The license grant to EA, and the above waiver of any applicable moral rights, survives any termination of this License.

Just thought I'd remind folks who really owns these fixes we do. 

(EDITs: cleaning up extraneous line breaks in the quoted paragraph)

Modifié par Nukenin, 21 avril 2010 - 02:05 .

[Charsen]

Qwinn1234 wrote...

Charsen:

Otherwise, I suppose you wouldn't mind if someone took your entire project, added a simple extra fix and claimed it as their own, right?

Considering I'm starting with a base of about 50 fixes of my own, only a handful of which I've seen fixed elsewhere, I think that analogy is pretty blatantly unfair right from the start.  The fact that I'm not actually 'taking" anyone's project, just finding out what the bugs are and fixing them myself, makes that analogy *wildly* unfair, IMHO.

Qwinn

Isn't it unfair to not credit someone who has done the same work before you? Quantity is not protection -- if you fix 10 or 1000 bugs and also use the work of one person to fix one bug, then you should still simply say so in your credits. 

When you are making a compilation project, you are essentially taking over projects and removing the authorship from the current mod authors. This is good because it builds a single source, but you are still removing their authority without their consent. And it is not malicious; it is a good intent, so please do not misunderstand. However, the point is still valid that they have lost their project to you, and the very least you could do is acknowledge it.

In any scientific paper, you must always cite sources. It doesn't mean you didn't think of the idea yourself, it simply means that you acknowledge the work of others in your field. This is professional, courteous and helps encourage a community effort.

It is no difficult matter to credit where credit is due and acknowledge those who came before you. You will still get the fame of this mod since the vast majority of users will not even look at your readme. You gain nothing by making some folks disgruntled. At best it will create an icy and distrustful atmosphere and at worst they will just give up on modding and then all of us lose out.

Just something to consider. Good luck.

[ejoslin]

Qwinn1234, I am more than willing to work with people, and as ZDF is an open project, B2Bs are available for everyone who asks and I include my script files with all my releases. I have been working with quite a few modders to make sure everything is compatible. There are some wonderful mods in various stages of development based on ZDF -- I am hoping that that doesn't change.

Do I like it that you took ZDF's list of bug fixes and incorporated them into your own? The only thing that bothers me about that is if you don't give me credit. Had I had a list like that ZDF most certainly would have not taken as much time as it did.

You are welcome to download my work. You are welcome to download my B2Bs and if you'd like any others, I'd gladly provide them to you. ZDF is a completely open project, and all I ask from anyone I work with is that they give me proper credit.

It looks like your latest update will be based completely on fixes I made to ZDF. Again, all I ask is that you give me credit.  Half of bug fixing is FINDING the bugs to begin with.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 avril 2010 - 02:24 .

[sami jo]

Tracking down those bugs, at least in ejoslin's case, was not a trivial matter.  No one knew many of those bugs even existed, and no one would have known had she not been going through the code.  So yes, it is a bit of a breach of etiquette to take weeks of someone else's hard work and not give credit at all by simply lifting things from mod detail pages.  Contacting the people whose work you were referencing would have been polite, and would likely have saved you more time by having them provide you with a b2b file of their fixes.  Folks have been working very hard to ensure that all of the fixes are mutually compatible and building on eachother's fixes. (and giving appropriate credit)  Would you feel the same if one of the modders you pulled info from read your detail page and duplicated your efforts without giving you any credit? Building off what has already been done by the rest of the community will save you time, get all the bugs fixed faster, and avoid stepping on toes; unless you have a burning desire to reinvent the wheel and step on toes, that is.

[Qwinn1234]

Isn't it unfair to not credit someone

All I ask is that you give me credit.

Where is this notion that I am not going to extend credit coming from? I think I've said that I'd be perfectly happy to extend credit at least half a dozen times in this thread. I was thinking that credit should be earned by more than just reading a bug list on a project details page, but if I am required to extend credit just for the information that a bug exists to keep the peace, I will endeavor to do so.



And Charsen, since you probably missed this edit to my last post, let me restate:

No one owns a bug, no, but they did put in a lot of time and you are building off of that.

No, I'm really not, unless just the information that a bug exists counts as something that required a lot of time or that I need to extend credit for. By this logic, I should credit every wiki page where a bug was reported that I fixed in my first release.



But again, if simply the information that a bug or six exists really is considered something that credit should be extended for, I will endeavor to comply.

It looks like your latest update will be based completely on fixes I made to ZDF.

No, not at all actually. I intended to go over the wiki again, and also go over the project details of any mods that players had posted in the comments of my project that they would like me to fix. In some of the more heavily bugged files (like party_events.dlg, etc.) I was hoping to fix *all* the bugs I could find before the next release, whether the information that the bug exists came from your mod, from the wiki, from my own research, or any other source.

[Nukenin]

ejoslin wrote...

[…]It looks like your latest update will be based completely on fixes I made to ZDF. Again, all I ask is that you give me credit.  Half of bug fixing is FINDING the bugs to begin with.  

Propriety, not proprietary.  You're letting the latter blind you to the former.  You're implicitly accusing Qwinn of doing something he has not done yet and likely wasn't going to do.

Not cool. <_<

Modifié par Nukenin, 21 avril 2010 - 02:36 .

[Creature 1]

Nukenin wrote...

From the Dragon Age: Origins EULA, 1.G. "Your Contributions":

Irrelevant.  We're talking about a matter of civility and propriety, not who gets the cash. 

[Nukenin]

Creature 1 wrote...

Nukenin wrote...

From the Dragon Age: Origins EULA, 1.G. "Your Contributions":

Irrelevant.  We're talking about a matter of civility and propriety, not who gets the cash. 

I suggest you reread that very carefully. 

[ejoslin]

If he gives me credit, I am fine; I did put in a lot of work, but this is not anything I owned, and I did it with the sole intention of making the game more fun. Again, I am willing to help him with his project. I am working with several other modders, and the goal has always been to make the best gaming experience for everyone by having mods be compatible with others.



My doubts come in to whether I will get credit as I learned about this from this thread instead of him contacting me. If he does give me the credit and links to my project at DANexus, I will not have any complaints. ZDF does have a lot to offer than an all encompassing bug fix cannot offer -- mainly compatibility with people's enhancements.



For people wanting an easy "bug fix" something like this is very good. For people wanting things added, a less comprehensive fix works better. Different things improve different people's gameplay. I'm glad I found so many of these bugs so that I COULD repair them. It just makes for better gaming for everyone.

[Qwinn1234]

Sorry if I seem dismissive of finding bugs as a time consuming task... I honestly didn't think they were. I would think that the knowledge of a bug is instantaneous: you're talking to Shianni in the dialog, Zevran is your romance interest, and suddenly the conversation starts treating it as if Alistair is your romance interest. Boom. Bug identified. That information is acquired simply by playing the game. The work, it seems to me, is in finding out *what files* the bugs are in, and how to fix them.



Why did I go to ZDF for information about bugs? Because most of those fixes are exclusive to female players. I have no intention of playing a female character and will never see these bugs myself. I was hoping to fix them *anyway*, but if everyone wants, I can just fix only the bugs I run across on my own and call it Qwinn's Unofficial He-Man Woman Hater's Dragon Age: Origins Fixpack.

[sami jo]

Nukenin wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

[…]It looks like your latest update will be based completely on fixes I made to ZDF. Again, all I ask is that you give me credit.  Half of bug fixing is FINDING the bugs to begin with.  

Propriety, not proprietary.  You're letting the latter blind you to the former.  You're implicitly accusing Qwinn of doing something he has not done yet and likely wasn't going to do.

Not cool. <_<

But he just said that he didn't plan on crediting all the people who did the work to originally find the bugs.  Many of those dialogue bugs would only be found by someone actually looking at the code.  That is time-consuming and tedious.  He already said that he read those description pages to save time, so obviously he is clear on the fact that finding them in the first place is time-consuming.  Simply crediting the people who found them is hardly a lot to ask.  And yes, I would include crediting the wiki.  It is polite.  Fixing all the bugs is a great idea.  Doing so by building off of others work and not crediting them at all is not a very nice thing to do.  No one is getting paid in anything but "thank-yous" here.  A simple acknowledgement is all anyone is asking.

[sami jo]

Qwinn1234 wrote...

Sorry if I seem dismissive of finding bugs as a time consuming task... I honestly didn't think they were. I would think that the knowledge of a bug is instantaneous: you're talking to Shianni in the dialog, Zevran is your romance interest, and suddenly the conversation starts treating it as if Alistair is your romance interest. Boom. Bug identified. That information is acquired simply by playing the game. The work, it seems to me, is in finding out *what files* the bugs are in, and how to fix them.

Why did I go to ZDF for information about bugs? Because most of those fixes are exclusive to female players. I have no intention of playing a female character and will never see these bugs myself. I was hoping to fix them *anyway*, but if everyone wants, I can just fix only the bugs I run across on my own and call it Qwinn's Unofficial He-Man Woman Hater's Dragon Age: Origins Fixpack.

Actually, most of those bugs WERE NOT obvious from gameplay.  No one knew that people were getting the wrong dialogue at the gates for pretty much all of the LIs until she looked at the scripts.  Not obvious.  And this is definitely not just for female characters.  There are also the Morrigan fixes and the maleP/Zev fixes etc.   

[Creature 1]

Nukenin wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

Nukenin wrote...

From the Dragon Age: Origins EULA, 1.G. "Your Contributions":

Irrelevant.  We're talking about a matter of civility and propriety, not who gets the cash. 

I suggest you reread that very carefully. 

If you think requirements for basic civility and propriety are overridden by a CYA EULA, you're quite mistaken.  Acknowledging those who did the foundational work is a simple matter of good manners, and is no threat to BioWare's copyright. 

[ejoslin]

Qwinn1234, first of all, again, I don't MIND that you did this. I have offered my help to you, I have offered B2Bs, etc. I can tell you no one found the bug about Zevran giving the wrong dialog at the city gates, though by playing it -- people wondered why he was so off-putting at the gates but they didn't realize what was up. With the Alienage, same thing. It's not out of line for Alistair to ask his long time fellow gray warden about the betrothal -- he sounds surprised there, his best friend never mentioned this to him.

To find these mistakes, I DID go through the code, and was surprised actually. The alienage had another bug attached to it and I wanted to figure out why the screen was glitching if Alistair wasn't in the party there. It was a surprise that there was actually more lines there for the romance partner. Did you also fix the problems there with a female warden's final responses to Zevran?  It's an easy fix!  But it was sloppy on their part.

Again, though, since you found these bugs using me as a source, is it really unreasonable for me to get credit and ask that you link to my project in your readme? I am MORE than willing to help you with this. All that I am asking is that I am given credit. And using my list of fixes IS helping you.

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 avril 2010 - 02:52 .

[Nukenin]

Qwinn1234 wrote...

[…]Qwinn's Unofficial He-Man Woman Hater's Dragon Age: Origins Fixpack.

Just add yer fixes and drop a nod to her and her project for those seeking more/different fixes.

By the way, that fix you're gonna do for that little problem I mentioned with Dog and Deathroot in the Brecilian Forest?  I'd best see my name at the top of the credits list for finding that one.  In all caps.  Blinking.  Or maybe some fancy ASCII font.  My real name too.  And my official PR photo.  And don't gimme that "but you posted it to the forums" carp.  That goof is just esoteric.  Took me months to find!  :innocent:

[Charsen]

Qwinn1234 wrote...
Where is this notion that I am not going to extend credit coming from? I think I've said that I'd be perfectly happy to extend credit at least half a dozen times in this thread. I was thinking that credit should be earned by more than just reading a bug list on a project details page, but if I am required to extend credit just for the information that a bug exists to keep the peace, I will endeavor to do so.

Please do not misunderstand me. I am not trying to take a side here; I am just saying that it is very easy to avoid making others upset, and since everyone is a volunteer and words are free, then a simple mention is by far a wonderful way to make everyone happy. And a happy community is a productive community.

Qwinn1234 wrote...
And Charsen, since you probably missed this edit to my last post, let me restate:

No one owns a bug, no, but they did put in a lot of time and you are building off of that.

No, I'm really not, unless just the information that a bug exists counts as something that required a lot of time or that I need to extend credit for. By this logic, I should credit every wiki page where a bug was reported that I fixed in my first release.

But again, if simply the information that a bug or six exists really is considered something that credit should be extended for, I will endeavor to comply.

No, perhaps a discovery is not enough to warrant an acknowledgment -- such a determination is not my place to make. But if someone has an entire project devoted to fixing some bugs, then you are taking over their project. This is an important point, so please consider it. My previous points still stand as well. Better safe than sorry, right? It's better that everyone is smiling if everyone depends on each other.

I assume you are releasing a B2B so modders can use these files for their mods? I have to put my projects on hold if there will be a new bug fix released since I have been using Ejoslin's files for my base. 

edit: 
And i am glad that you are willing to give credit where credit is due. I think that is very noble and honest of you. I hope you did not feel like i was attacking you -- I do hope that your project succeeds, and I wish you luck.

Modifié par Charsen, 21 avril 2010 - 02:59 .

[Creature 1]

Creature 1 wrote...

Nukenin wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

Nukenin wrote...

From the Dragon Age: Origins EULA, 1.G. "Your Contributions":

Irrelevant.  We're talking about a matter of civility and propriety, not who gets the cash. 

I suggest you reread that very carefully. 

If you think requirements for basic civility and propriety are overridden by a CYA EULA, you're quite mistaken.  Acknowledging those who did the foundational work is a simple matter of good manners, and is no threat to BioWare's copyright. 

Additionally, Quinn1234 is not publishing this compilation of fixes anonymously, so regardless of the EULA is getting some recognition from the community.  The others who already formulated bugfixes and tracked down the bugs simply want the same opportunity for recognition that he will have.  So if you have a problem with that I suggest you lecture him as well for attaching a name to and publicizing this compilation.