177 réponses à ce sujet

[Nukenin]

Creature 1 wrote...

If you think requirements for basic civility and propriety are overridden by a CYA EULA, you're quite mistaken.  Acknowledging those who did the foundational work is a simple matter of good manners, and is no threat to BioWare's copyright. 

Obviously you're on a different tangent than I.  Never ye mind. 

[Qwinn1234]

I'll agree that the Zevran Gates dialogue fix wasn't immediately obvious. Conceded, and credit just for the information of that bug is indeed deserved in every respect. I don't know that *many* of the bugs fall into that category though. Of the six fixes I listed as my having looked at based on reading the ZDF project page:

1. City Elf: When asked by Morrigan about your mother, you can no longer reply "My mother died at childbirth", which conflicts with the city elf origin story. That reply is replaced with the accurate "My mother died a long time ago."

2. City Elf: When talking to your romance interest during your conversation with Shianni in the Alienage, and you are romancing someone other than Alistair, Alistair will no longer suddenly replace your romance interest mid conversation.

3. City Gates: The final companion dialogue sequence would abort prematurely while talking to Alistair if his approval rating was hostile. Fixed.

4. City Gates: During the final companion dialogue sequence, you would get Zevran's "Friendly" lines if he was in love, and his "Warm" lines if he was friendly. Fixed.

5. Several dialogue bugs wherein Alistair or Loghain would talk about details about Morrigan's ritual without ever having been told (and later forget them) have been resolved. Also, during Morrigan's dialogue about the ritual, one reply option "Why didn't you tell me this before?" was conditioned on Alistair no longer being in the party, rather than that Morrigan hadn't previously left the party.

6. Talking with a romanced Zevran about the PC marrying Alistair or Anora can now only happen in the party camp - outside of camp, it would cause game-stopping graphical errors.

#4 is the only one that it appears to me required any look into the toolset to identify as a bug. The idea that "most" or even "many" of the bug information I've looked at falls into that category seems a bit of an exaggeration to me. The Zevran Gates fix, absolutely. The rest? C'mon.

And frankly, #5 I won't be giving any credit for.  It was obvious to me in my own playthroughs, I'm fixing it in a completely different manner, and the second part of it with the reply having the wrong conditions I found completely on my own and as far as I know no one else has fixed.

Qwinn

Modifié par Qwinn1234, 21 avril 2010 - 02:58 .

[Creature 1]

Nukenin wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

If you think requirements for basic civility and propriety are overridden by a CYA EULA, you're quite mistaken.  Acknowledging those who did the foundational work is a simple matter of good manners, and is no threat to BioWare's copyright. 

Obviously you're on a different tangent than I.  Never ye mind. 

I work in the hard sciences, and we have serious convictions about proper attribution of others' work.  I know some people treat these things more flippantly, and that's a shame. 

[Nukenin]

Creature 1 wrote...

Additionally, Quinn1234 is not publishing this compilation of fixes anonymously, so regardless of the EULA is getting some recognition from the community.  The others who already formulated bugfixes and tracked down the bugs simply want the same opportunity for recognition that he will have.  So if you have a problem with that I suggest you lecture him as well for attaching a name to and publicizing this compilation. 

He hasn't published the "offending" compilation of fixes yet.  You people are accusing him of something he has not done.  Or do you even know what wagon ye've banded?

[ejoslin]

Nukenin wrote...

Just add yer fixes and drop a nod to her and her project for those seeking more/different fixes.

That is all I want.  I put in a LOT of work tracking those down, and if that work is going to be used by someone else, it's not an unreasonable thing to ask.

[Creature 1]

Qwinn1234 wrote...

I'll agree that the Zevran Gates dialogue fix wasn't immediately obvious. Conceded, and credit just for the information of that bug is indeed deserved in every respect. I don't know that *many* of the bugs fall into that category though

Why waste time agonizing over each and every one?  Just cite all your sources and the problem is solved. 

[Creature 1]

Nukenin wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

Additionally, Quinn1234 is not publishing this compilation of fixes anonymously, so regardless of the EULA is getting some recognition from the community.  The others who already formulated bugfixes and tracked down the bugs simply want the same opportunity for recognition that he will have.  So if you have a problem with that I suggest you lecture him as well for attaching a name to and publicizing this compilation. 

He hasn't published the "offending" compilation of fixes yet.  You people are accusing him of something he has not done.  Or do you even know what wagon ye've banded?

And if he cites sources appropriately, that won't be a problem.  But the attitude that citing these sources is not necessary is a problem. 

[ejoslin]

Qwinn1234 wrote...

I'll agree that the Zevran Gates dialogue fix wasn't immediately obvious. Conceded, and credit just for the information of that bug is indeed deserved in every respect. I don't know that *many* of the bugs fall into that category though. Of the six fixes I listed as my having looked at based on reading the ZDF project page:

1. City Elf: When asked by Morrigan about your mother, you can no longer reply "My mother died at childbirth", which conflicts with the city elf origin story. That reply is replaced with the accurate "My mother died a long time ago."

2. City Elf: When talking to your romance interest during your conversation with Shianni in the Alienage, and you are romancing someone other than Alistair, Alistair will no longer suddenly replace your romance interest mid conversation.

3. City Gates: The final companion dialogue sequence would abort prematurely while talking to Alistair if his approval rating was hostile. Fixed.

4. City Gates: During the final companion dialogue sequence, you would get Zevran's "Friendly" lines if he was in love, and his "Warm" lines if he was friendly. Fixed.

5. Several dialogue bugs wherein Alistair or Loghain would talk about details about Morrigan's ritual without ever having been told (and later forget them) have been resolved. Also, during Morrigan's dialogue about the ritual, one reply option "Why didn't you tell me this before?" was conditioned on Alistair no longer being in the party, rather than that Morrigan hadn't previously left the party.

6. Talking with a romanced Zevran about the PC marrying Alistair or Anora can now only happen in the party camp - outside of camp, it would cause game-stopping graphical errors.

#4 is the only one that it appears to me required any look into the toolset to identify as a bug. The idea that "most" or even "many" of the bug information I've looked at falls into that category seems a bit of an exaggeration to me. The Zevran Gates fix, absolutely. The rest? C'mon.

Qwinn

You are the one who said you would not have found the bugs on your own, so you used mine since you don't play characters that would romance Zevran.

Edit: #5 is the only one of these fixes that are not listed on my page.

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 avril 2010 - 02:59 .

[Nukenin]

Creature 1 wrote...

I work in the hard sciences, and we have serious convictions about proper attribution of others' work.  I know some people treat these things more flippantly, and that's a shame. 

Yes, it is a shame.

Especially when someone is accused, implicitly or explicitly, of taking credit for someone else's work in something they have yet to even publish.  And then other folks pile on, perpetuating this accusation without considering or appreciating the facts.

[ejoslin]

Qwinn1234 wrote...

I found out about some of those bugs by reading project descriptions (mostly Zevran Dialog Fix so far), but I suspect I'm fixing some of them (particularly #5) differently. Again, hard for me to say, as I haven't (and don't believe I can) look at other modders' dlg files in the toolset.

Anyway... what do you think? Any advice on how I should proceed with my goal here without causing any avoidable angst?

I just wanted to add this quote.

Edit: And I want to add, I was NOT contacted about this.  And I have said repeatedly I do not mind as long as I get credit.  I did put a lot of work into this, and if someone is going to build on that work, then what is unreasonable about this?

And I am STILL willing to work with Qwinn1234.  And I hope the other modders I work with will still be willing to work with me and my smaller project!

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 avril 2010 - 03:05 .

[Qwinn1234]

I'm *not*. I've already stated half a dozen times in this thread that I have no problem extending credit. It's YOU people who keep insisting, based on no evidence whatsoever, that I don't intend to do so.

I could quote all of the places where I said I'd extend credit, but after finding 5 or so on the first page, I think it's pretty ridiculous that I should have to.

Modifié par Qwinn1234, 21 avril 2010 - 03:02 .

[Creature 1]

Nukenin wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

I work in the hard sciences, and we have serious convictions about proper attribution of others' work.  I know some people treat these things more flippantly, and that's a shame. 

Yes, it is a shame.

Especially when someone is accused, implicitly or explicitly, of taking credit for someone else's work in something they have yet to even publish.  And then other folks pile on, perpetuating this accusation without considering or appreciating the facts.

I actually have not addressed the OP at all, I've addressed  your insinuation that the EULA means modders can rip from others people's projects without consulting, citing, or even alerting them.  If that was not your intent, well, that's not the way your post came across. 

[Nukenin]

Creature 1 wrote...

And if he cites sources appropriately, that won't be a problem.  But the attitude that citing these sources is not necessary is a problem. 

Bah, who cares what he might or might not do?  That's tomorrow's facts!  Let's just accuse him anyway!  It's the Internet!  It's fun!

[Nukenin]

Creature 1 wrote...

I actually have not addressed the OP at all, I've addressed  your insinuation that the EULA means modders can rip from others people's projects without consulting, citing, or even alerting them.  If that was not your intent, well, that's not the way your post came across. 

You got all that from a post of one paragraph of the EULA, with a reminder that EA owns all our fixes?

Fancy! 

[Creature 1]

Nukenin wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

And if he cites sources appropriately, that won't be a problem.  But the attitude that citing these sources is not necessary is a problem. 

Bah, who cares what he might or might not do?  That's tomorrow's facts!  Let's just accuse him anyway!  It's the Internet!  It's fun!

Please read above.  I did not accuse the OP.  If I accused anyone, I accused you of incivility. 

[ejoslin]

This could have been avoided had I been contacted first is all. And as it is, Qwinn1234 has already said, though he used my DANexus project site as a source, that he is only planning on crediting me with coming up with one point. And he said he conceded that point to me. Which is WHY people may think he wasn't planning on crediting me at all!



If he does, GREAT! I have no complaints!

[Nukenin]

Creature 1 wrote...

Please read above.  I did not accuse the OP.  If I accused anyone, I accused you of incivility. 

Where did you accuse me of this?   I never noticed where the wavering finger of accusation was pointed.  Moi?  

I should make it clear that if I got the idea X from bug report Y on page Z documenting the existence of person B's fix W, I'd definitely drop a nod towards person B, their fix W, and page Z.  (EDIT: oops, and their bug report Y!)

I point above to where I mention propriety, not proprietary.  People should not presume to "own" the work they've done for this game, but they can damn well be respectful of the work of others.  And that goes both ways.

I guess maybe you banded the wagon after that, or dismissed it as example of my incivility.  I am a brutish thug, just look at me!  

Modifié par Nukenin, 21 avril 2010 - 03:17 .

[Creature 1]

Nukenin wrote...
I point above to where I mention propriety, not proprietary.  People should not presume to "own" the work they've done for this game, but they can damn well be respectful of the work of others.  And that goes both ways.

Good, then we have no argument. 

[Qwinn1234]

No, I'll happily give you credit for all the information I gleaned from your project details page. That was never really a question, and I thought I'd made that clear repeatedly. I did state the opinion that I think the simple information that a bug *obviously* exists (without any additional research needed) isn't something that really *merits* specific credit, but if it makes people happy, it's no particular skin off my nose to mention where I got that information either. And yes, I've argued that the claim that *most* of the bug information I gathered fit the "this took hours of intensive work to discover" is a wild exaggeration. Again, that doesn't change the fact that, sure, I'll extend credit, no problem. That doesn't mean I'm going to let hyperbolic statements like that (which didn't come from ejoslin, I will note) stand without comment, though.



As for the notion that I should credit the wiki, I think that's kinda silly. I know that *I've* contributed at least a half dozen of the bug reports currently on the wiki. It would never even occur to me that I should be offended if someone else fixed one of those bugs without crediting me (especially since the edits can't even be attributed to any specific user, fer cryin' out loud).



Qwinn

[ejoslin]

My last words on this subject:

I think a huge bug-fix type mod is a good thing, and I think putting it all together is admirable. But it is NOT a solo project, even if only one person has their name on it. Finding the bugs and fixing them -- if you're not the one encountering them and fixing them, you have had help. Big or small, you have to be aware of them in order to fix them. I played through the game so many times, with so many different scenarios, that yes, I ran across some, and discovered others in the toolset. People were NOT aware of the bug in the Alienage -- the way it plays out, it makes sense that Alistair talks there. I was looking at something else when I caught that one.

One thing I have tried to do as a modder is to make as many things work together as possible. ZDF has been and will continue to be completely open. Since ZDF still is in open beta, B2Bs are only available upon request, but after it leaves beta, everything will be up on my project page and on DANexus. I have no desire to own a project -- what's the fun in that? I love working with other people, and seeing them do amazing things with things I have fixed so they wanted to make those changes has been more than fun!

This is a terrific community here. I have met some truly supportive and wonderful people. I know that ZDF was not a solo project, and nor would I have wanted it to be.

I am glad to hear that Qwinn1234 (if I am understanding correctly) intends to give me credit for finding fixes he did not and linking to my page on DANexus. That is all I (and anyone) would ask of him.

Edit: And I also have been a pretty big contributer to the wiki.  Well, maybe not HUGE, but I do have quite a few paragraphs in there!

Second edit: Bleh, I can't help but add...  Find the bugs, especially when they're NOT obvious, IS very time consuming.  VERY time consuming.  That is what has taken most of my time, actually, on the project. 

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 avril 2010 - 03:26 .

[sami jo]

Qwinn1234 wrote...

I'm *not*. I've already stated half a dozen times in this thread that I have no problem extending credit. It's YOU people who keep insisting, based on no evidence whatsoever, that I don't intend to do so.

I could quote all of the places where I said I'd extend credit, but after finding 5 or so on the first page, I think it's pretty ridiculous that I should have to.

Actually, you already did publish something without extending appropriate credit and have been fairly defensive over the notion that you should do so at all.  You knew that these other projects existed and deliberately worked from their information without making any attempt to contact the authors. 

Again, I'll ask how you would feel if someone took your readme file, or even just your description, and used the information in it to come up with a mod that addressed all of the same things without contacting you or crediting you in any way in an attempt to make your mod obsolete (as you said you were doing back on page 1). 

People have expressed a willingness to work with you.  They were simply pointing out a breach of etiquette.

[Nukenin]

Qwinn1234 wrote...

[…]As for the notion that I should credit the wiki, I think that's kinda silly. I know that *I've* contributed at least a half dozen of the bug reports currently on the wiki. It would never even occur to me that I should be offended if someone else fixed one of those bugs without crediting me (especially since the edits can't even be attributed to any specific user, fer cryin' out loud).

Qwinn

Well, if you were alerted to some of the bugs you fixed by information gleaned from the wiki, acknowledge the wiki.  No need to identify/acknowledge individual contributors; by placing their reports/discussion on the wiki (or on the forums or other places) they are putting it out to the public.

[Nukenin]

Creature 1 wrote...

Good, then we have no argument. 

And I apologize for my part in the non-argument.  Stupid Internet!  

[Creature 1]

Nukenin wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

Good, then we have no argument. 

And I apologize for my part in the non-argument.  Stupid Internet!  

Stupid arguments are the internet's second most common application. 

[Qwinn1234]

Actually, you already did publish something without extending appropriate credit and have been fairly defensive over the notion that you should do so at all.

Excuse me, where have I done this? If you mean that I forgot to credit Nukenin on my first release, I'll note that I did my own fix for the problem before I ever spoke to him or even saw his mod (in fact, when I first talked to Nukenin, I thought his fix was written by someone else's entirely). Also, he never asked for credit, I added it proactively as soon as I realized I hadn't given it, because he kindly offered *subsequent*, post-my-writing-my-own-fix, advice and help on various matters.

In fact, the fact that I discovered the problem causing the stealing fix on my own is firmly documented on his project page, heh. I screwed up and thought he was doing his fix completely differently, due to my confusing his fix with the project details of someone else's fix.

If you're not talking about that, then I'd please like you to back up your claim that I "already did publish something without extending appropriate credit", because if I did so, I'm not aware of it.

You knew that these other projects existed and deliberately worked from their information without making any attempt to contact the authors.

Yeah, I "worked". On my own box. I haven't published anything. Do I need to get people's permission to freaking look for bugs on my own box now, too?

And ok, sure, I'll credit the wiki.  I'm sure the wiki server will blush with pride. 

Qwinn

Modifié par Qwinn1234, 21 avril 2010 - 03:32 .