177 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Qwinn1234 wrote...

Sorry if I seem dismissive of finding bugs as a time consuming task... I honestly didn't think they were. I would think that the knowledge of a bug is instantaneous: you're talking to Shianni in the dialog, Zevran is your romance interest, and suddenly the conversation starts treating it as if Alistair is your romance interest. Boom. Bug identified. That information is acquired simply by playing the game. The work, it seems to me, is in finding out *what files* the bugs are in, and how to fix them.

I think the very fact game has shipped with numerous bugs despite being done by skilled professionals who do realize the value of good QA... shows that tracking these pesky things down actually is both time and effort consuming. If it wasn't, this whole thread simply wouldn't exist

In any case it seems like a rather straightforward matter -- if someone else's work did help to do one's own task, it's worth a credit period. I'd consider it a preferable approach simply because it saves all the hassle of trying to figure out on case-by-case basis whether one contributed "enough" to get a mention, as well as this whole tuna can of drama when the opinions may differ.

[Nukenin]

Egads, extend me credit for your own work?  

Yep, the stealing fix was obvious and he went out of his way to contact me because he'd thought I'd gotten it wrong.  (The whole reason for my fix was that the person who did get it wrong was content with their fix, so I went and did it right, credited that person with identifying the problematic chunk of code, and then embellished my fix with added features to further distinguish it.)

Once we were on the same page, I offered Qwinn some suggestions on dog issues I'd discovered that he might not have yet been aware of.  Just minor esoteric things, but I felt that many folks might be content with having their stealing and dog find fixes coming from his fixpack, so I wanted to make sure that his fixes covered those minor esoteric things as mine did.

Even though I call my fix "Nukenin's Stealing Fix" with a blatant statement of proprietorship, that's just to give it a name different than just "Stealing Fix" and make it stand out.  I make all my modified source files available, anyone can rip them and incorporate them into their own fixes and I could care less, but that's me.

[Qwinn1234]

That's fine, if it makes people feel better. Honestly, I think giving credit for really minor stuff takes away from the credit that is really, truly earned. I think ejoslin deserves exceptional credit for spotting the Zevran Gates fix, and absolutely would have extended it for that whether I'd been asked to or not. But when that credit is submerged under an avalance of "and I found out that if you talk to Zevran about marrying Anora outside of the party camp, it pretty much forces a reload due to the ensuing graphic glitches from such and such"... well, posting that information takes far less effort than it's taken me to make this post.  It's not like that took any research.  That info is about as generic as your typical wiki bug report.

I'll give the wiki credit.  Will the wiki credit me for fixing those bugs?  I'm guessing not, as I've yet to see a bug report on the wiki that adds "This bug is fixed by such and such mod", so it's probably their policy not to allow that.  The insistence that mods must acknowledge wiki when the wiki doesn't acknowledge mods seems odd to me, but again, whatever.  There's no great principle here that compels me to resist this oddity, but I reserve the right to state my opinion that it seems a bit silly.

The way I'm going to extend credit is simply that if I'm aware that another mod fixed a bug before I came along, I'll add "Previously fixed by Such And Such Mod". If I get more help than that on a particular fix, I'll add a special note to that regard. Hopefully that'll suffice for everyone. If I'm not even aware that a mod existed prior to my devising and implementing and publishing a fix, I'm sure I'll get yelled at for not citing those as well, but whatever. I can only work with what I know about.

Honestly, I think anyone who had even taken a brief look at the PS:T fixpack readme I posted earlier would've realized that I spray *tons* of credit all over the place, even for very minor help, like a freakin' fire hose.

Qwinn

Modifié par Qwinn1234, 21 avril 2010 - 03:47 .

[sami jo]

Qwinn1234 wrote...

Actually, you already did publish something without extending appropriate credit and have been fairly defensive over the notion that you should do so at all.

Excuse me, where have I done this? If you mean that I forgot to credit Nukenin on my first release, I'll note that I did my own fix for the problem before I ever spoke to him or even saw his mod (in fact, when I first talked to Nukenin, I thought his fix was written by someone else's entirely). Also, he never asked for credit, I added it proactively as soon as I realized I hadn't given it, because he kindly offered *subsequent*, post-my-writing-my-own-fix, advice and help on various matters.

In fact, the fact that I discovered the problem causing the stealing fix on my own is firmly documented on his project page, heh. I screwed up and thought he was doing his fix completely differently, due to my confusing his fix with the project details of someone else's fix.

If you're not talking about that, then I'd please like you to back up your claim that I "already did publish something without extending appropriate credit", because if I did so, I'm not aware of it.

You were correct, you listed them as part of the fixes you were planning for the upcoming release. 

You knew that these other projects existed and deliberately worked from their information without making any attempt to contact the authors.

Yeah, I "worked". On my own box. I haven't published anything. Do I need to get people's permission to freaking look for bugs on my own box now, too?

And ok, sure, I'll credit the wiki.  I'm sure the wiki server will blush with pride. 

Qwinn

Again, I'm happy as long as you credit the sources of your information.  Easy or not, you would not have that information if someone else had not taken the time to identify the bug and build the fix or list the bug on the wiki. Again, you said yourself that you had used those lists to find bugs to save yourself time, so clearly that time was worth something.  If I were to take your list of bugs to build into a mod that was compatible with ZDF, I would credit you for the list; and, in the interest of not stepping on toes, I would also contact you to see if you wanted to help and get some of the credit. (since you seem very attached to your download numbers)  It is no longer "just on your box" when you are publicizing it here. 

Edited for quotational clarity and to say that really, the whole hubbaloo would have been completely avoided if you had simply contacted the other people who were already working on these things.  Most modders here play well with others, and if they didn't want to play nice, at least you would have made the effort.  Finding out after the fact that someone used your hard work and is about to make it obsolete without even contacting you would be a bit jarring, no?

Modifié par sami jo, 21 avril 2010 - 04:02 .

[Qwinn1234]

Um, yes, and after I listed the six bugs I'd worked out fixes on my own for, -the very next sentence was-:

I found out about some of those bugs by reading project descriptions (mostly Zevran Dialog Fix so far

So, again, tell me where I "published something without extending proper credit".

Modifié par Qwinn1234, 21 avril 2010 - 03:59 .

[Nukenin]

tmp7704 wrote...

[…]In any case it seems like a rather straightforward matter -- if someone else's work did help to do one's own task, it's worth a credit period. I'd consider it a preferable approach simply because it saves all the hassle of trying to figure out on case-by-case basis whether one contributed "enough" to get a mention, as well as this whole tuna can of drama when the opinions may differ.

And I'm fairly certain that's what Qwinn intended (and intends!) to do.

It is possible, however, for Author Z to learn of a bug from a player report (let's say Player on the Bioware social forums, and independently develop a fix for it without realizing that someone else (let's say Author X) has already done so.  Does Author X have the right to throw a hissy fit because Author Z credits Player B in his fixpack, and not Author X, who Author Z is not even aware of?  (Maybe Author X had a typo in their project or posted it to dragonageubermods.us instead of the Bioware Social Site.)

Furthermore, to compound the moral dilemma, Player B actually learned of the bug from a discussion Author X had on the dragonageubermods.us forums, but he never mentioned this in his post to the Bioware social forums, and never revisits the thread on the Bioware social forums to clarify this.  So far as Author Z knows, he learned of the bug from Player B and that's where it originated, even after a disgruntled Author X points out his original discussion on the dragonageubermods.us forums.

Does Author X co-credit Author Z?  Does Author Z still continue to throw a hissy fit because he feels he deserves sole credit?  Will Author X realize that Author Z is actually a facet of his own split personality?

We may never know, because Bioware fixed the bug in patch 1.04.

:happy:

[Challseus]

Nukenin wrote...

Does Author X co-credit Author Z?  Does Author Z still continue to throw a hissy fit because he feels he deserves sole credit?  Will Author X realize that Author Z is actually a facet of his own split personality?

We may never know, because Bioware fixed the bug in patch 1.04.

:happy:

*Glad he doesn't have to deal with compatibility issues*

Modifié par Challseus, 21 avril 2010 - 04:00 .

[sami jo]

Qwinn1234 wrote...

Um, yes, and after I listed the six bugs I'd worked out fixes on my own for, -the very next sentence was-:

I found out about some of those bugs by reading project descriptions (mostly Zevran Dialog Fix so far

So, again, tell me where I "published something without extending proper credit".

I'll note that if just posting about upcoming fixes counts as "publishing", then your own posts here would, it seems to me, constitute "publishing" false accusations.

Qwinn

I said, you were correct.  In other words, I was mistaken.  Freely willing to admit when I am wrong.  Shall I put it in bold?  I MISREAD AND WAS MISTAKEN. I AM SORRY. You stated that you intended to publish those fixes and subsequently stated that you saw no reason to credit those from whom you got the list of bugs.

My point was and still is that it is polite to give credit to those you garner information from and to contact the modders you are garnering information from and who are working on the same fixes.  You have said you will give credit.  Hooray!  Working with the other modders as has been suggested by many others here or at least contacting them, as has been suggested by many here, would be the polite thing to do and would have avoided all the drama to begin with.

[Charsen]

It feels like the tone of this thread is now too hostile to have any meaningful discourse. Everyone who is upset should step back, get a good night's sleep, and realize that we are all doing these mods for free on our own time because we all love the same game.

[Nukenin]

sami jo wrote...

[…]Finding out after the fact that someone used your hard work and is about to make it obsolete without even contacting you would be a bit jarring, no?

Egads, yes!  Who the heck is doing this?  Let's nail 'em before they have a chance!

[Qwinn1234]

Ah, I'm sorry, I misunderstood when you said "You are correct", I thought you were talking about me not crediting Nukenin initially and then added the claim that I didn't credit on the list in this post. Apology accepted as well.



Also, I just realized I missed some of the posts near the bottom of page 2 previously.



ejoslin:



Fair enough, yah, I can see how the Alienage fix might've not looked like a bug in game, and kudos for finding that one in the toolset as well.

Did you also fix the problems there with a female warden's final responses to Zevran? It's an easy fix! But it was sloppy on their part.

I'm not sure, I do remember fixing another branch in that dialogue that looked problematic to me. Not sure if that addressed what you are talking about here, but no, I wasn't aware of an additional problem beyond the initial one, I'll take another look, thanks for pointing it out.



And I'm sorry if I got snarky at times on this thread, but I was getting frustrated being told repeatedly that I was not going to extend credit when I had repeatedly stated I would.

and subsequently stated that you saw no reason to credit those from whom you got the list of bugs.

I stated that I thought that *just* the information that a bug exists, in most circumstances (I've already acknowledged exceptions) isn't something that *should* create a storm of outrage if credit isn't extended, but I never said that I wasn't going to, and the dozen or so times I said I *would* prior to that and after that should've made that clear, I would've hoped.

[Nukenin]

Alas, a point speculative was mistook for a plan most diabolic.  And then the Internet happened. 

Modifié par Nukenin, 21 avril 2010 - 04:17 .

[ejoslin]

Qwinn1234, just because a bug seems small or obvious, it doesn't mean it is. Yes, the glitch requiring a reload of the "royal scandal" talk was a huge, glaring bug, but it was not one anyone addressed before nor one that you would have found. I'm glad they're being addressed in a big patch, though. It certainly wasn't being addressed anywhere until I fixed it.

Anyway, good luck on your project. Just don't leave out the SMALL stuff because often that makes the game worse than the big stuff.

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 avril 2010 - 04:22 .

[Qwinn1234]

Oh, I think I address the little stuff. I mean, how do you get smaller than this?

"3. If Lothering was destroyed and you never even talked to Sten, you were still getting a codex entry about his death that implied you had met him."

One thing I've yet to be accused of when it comes to this stuff is not being anal enough, hehehe.

Please don't worry, I will give you plenty of credit and a link to your mods.  And I appreciate your offer to look at your files directly, I will likely take you up on it once I've reviewed the issues myself, and if I glean actual methodology on how to address a fix that hadn't occurred to me, I will make special note  of it.

Seriously, if you're worried at all, look at the PS:T Fixpack Readme I posted earlier.  I have lots of faults, but being stingy with credit for even minor stuff is not something I've ever been accused of before.

Modifié par Qwinn1234, 21 avril 2010 - 04:28 .

[sami jo]

Edited because I type way the frack too slow tonight.

OP: I'm sorry if you felt attacked. That was not my intention.  Changing your mind was, but then I realized that I was a little late to that party.

It would be spectacular if you were to work with EJ, Charsen and the Alistair and Morrigan modders who have been working together.  The scale of bugs conquered is far from obvious from the description of the mods.

Modifié par sami jo, 21 avril 2010 - 04:32 .

[Qwinn1234]

The OP did say that he saw no reason to credit the mod authors from whose descriptions he found the bugs on the grounds that the bugs were "obvious from gameplay".

I'm glad this argument is dying down, but I have to state AGAIN that I never said any such thing. In fact, I said:

Where is this notion that I am not going to extend credit coming from? I think I've said that I'd be perfectly happy to extend credit at least half a dozen times in this thread. I was thinking that credit should be earned by more than just reading a bug list on a project details page, but if I am required to extend credit just for the information that a bug exists to keep the peace, I will endeavor to do so.

And later in the same post:

But again, if simply the information that a bug or six exists really is considered something that credit should be extended for, I will endeavor to comply.

You've insinuated repeatedly that I actually *refused* to extend credit at some point in this thread. Contrary to your claim, I didn't claim there was "no reason" to do so since I said I *would* do so, and stated the reason why.



Qwinn

[sami jo]

Qwinn1234 wrote...

The OP did say that he saw no reason to credit the mod authors from whose descriptions he found the bugs on the grounds that the bugs were "obvious from gameplay".

I'm glad this argument is dying down, but I have to state AGAIN that I never said any such thing. In fact, I said:

Where is this notion that I am not going to extend credit coming from? I think I've said that I'd be perfectly happy to extend credit at least half a dozen times in this thread. I was thinking that credit should be earned by more than just reading a bug list on a project details page, but if I am required to extend credit just for the information that a bug exists to keep the peace, I will endeavor to do so.

And later in the same post:

But again, if simply the information that a bug or six exists really is considered something that credit should be extended for, I will endeavor to comply.

You've insinuated repeatedly that I actually *refused* to extend credit at some point in this thread. Contrary to your claim, I didn't claim there was "no reason" to do so since I said I *would* do so, and stated the reason why.

Qwinn

*cough, cough* please read my edit.  As I said, I type too slow tonight.

[Qwinn1234]

Oops, didn't see your last post before I hit submit on that last one.

Changing your mind was, but then I realized that I was a little late to that party.

My mind never really needed changing, I was never planning (nor stated any plan) to not give credit where anyone has requested it, and thank you for acknowledging that to at least some extent now



I'm not trying to keep the argument going, I just wanted to set that straight, since the implication that I'd ever refused to extend any credit requested kept coming up even into this page.



So hopefully that can be laid to rest now

[Nukenin]

Qwinn1234 wrote...

[…]So hopefully that can be laid to rest now

Until all the folks below start chiming in!  Look at them, they've completely ignored much of this discussion except for the volatile bits!  

[Qwinn1234]

Oh, just adding, yes, absolutely, I will add B2B download as soon as there's any real reason to do so... I don't think any of the files in the current release really require it, as it doesn't yet touch any of the more problematic files. The current release *should* be compatible with every companion mod out there as far as I know (unless someone's actually done work on Sten or Oghren that I'm not aware of). When the next release comes out, which *will* have conflicting files with other mods, I will put up the files, including my heavily commented .NSS's.



Oh, and as a request, please don't feel the need to refer to me as Qwinn1234 I'm just Qwinn, I only added the silly numbers because someone else took plain old "Qwinn" (hell, it was probably me signing in some long ages ago tied to an email account I no longer have access to... if that's the case, really wish I could get it back, but it'll probably never happen)



Qwinn

[DLAN_Immortality]

Qwinn1234 wrote...
 The current release *should* be compatible with every companion mod out there as far as I know (

Qwinn

Ser Gilmore :-(

I left you the link some pages to the b2b you'll need to make my mod compatible with yours.

[Qwinn1234]

Immortality,



But, but, I don't make any changes to cutscene_slideshow.dlg in the current release. I looked at your file list and I don't see any file there that we both touch. My next release, yep, there'll be a bunch of compatibility issues, but for now I'm just talking about version 1.1,



Or did I miss a file in my look through our lists?



Qwinn

[ladydesire]

Qwinn: While I haven't done anything with some of the companions, I have been tweaking Wynne's dialog as well as some characters in the Broken Circle and Arl Eammon plots for my Tevinter Warden class; these are mostly changes needed to either have them recognize you as having done the Magi Origin or make a normally Mage option available to Tevinter Wardens.

[DLAN_Immortality]

Oh okay, nevermind then. I was still thinking on that post you mentioned about the changes in cutscene_slideshow... sorry!... :-)

[Qwinn1234]

Immortality and ladydesire:



In terms of new content mods, I think the sanest way to handle it will be to just adopt the policy that, when installing our mods, you install my fixpack first and then yours over top of it, allowing you to overwrite my files. That's generally how it's done in most mod communties I've seen, in that it's required that the fixpack gets installed first and content mods are installed after.



The only other option would be that I integrate all your changes into my own fixpack files, such that my fixpack would become this central mixing house of all mods. That's honestly a much bigger workload than I'm willing to handle, and would be extremely prone to error. Also, if I were the sort of person that liked to play ONLY with bug fixes, without new content, and I knew that a fixpack was including lots of content mod code for compatibility's sake, I wouldn't install it. Even if in theory none of that new content should show in my game, just the fact that it was trying to do so would scare me away.



So, I'm thinking the best way to keep compatibility is that I provide you guys with all the information about all the fixes I do, and you can fix those things as well in your mods. I don't think anyone will complain if your mod fixes bugs in the files you touch, even if they're not installing my fixpack as a whole. Really, I think in most cases that won't even be strictly necessary: unless we're both touching a plot flag or a script, the worst that can come from someone overlaying your party_events (for example) over mine is that they won't have every fix that I've done, but it shouldn't work *worse* than the vanilla game, at least.



I'd be willing to extend any help requested in explaining the fixes I do to ease the job of applying them in files you touch, either way. What do you guys think? This seem like a reasonable approach, or have you all come up with a better system?