232 réponses à ce sujet

[EternalWolfe]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Vaeliorin wrote...

I'm a hardcore RPG fan.  Heck, I'm a PnP RPG'er.  My game collection is almost entirely made up of RPGs, with the occasional RTS (or really old TBS game) thrown in.  My favorite game of all time is Planescape:Torment.  I prefer turn-based games to real-time.

You'll also notice I didn't say ME1 combat was horrible.  I have no problems with ME1 combat.  I like ME1 combat.  I've played ME1 more times than ME2.  I happen to also like ME2 combat...though that's probably the only thing I like about the game.

Regardless of all that, I like combat that actually presents a challenge.  If I'm going to spend the time to engage in combat, I want it to be fun, and if I don't have to make an effort beyond repeatedly clicking the same button over and over to win, it's not fun for me.

So...anyway...thanks for making ridiculous assumptions about me...always fun to have happen.

Edit:  Oh, and on the original topic...I would definitely like more dialogue in ME3.  It'd be nice to actually be able to get to know my squadmates, instead of them being, for the most part, cliches and stereotypes.

Exactly. You're PnP. Level grinding. Skills. I'm from the group of RPG fans, that as I mentioned earlier in this thread, feel an RPG lives and dies by its characters and story. Too much emphasis on combat in an RPG almost always ends up hurting it.

You do realize that not all PnP games revolve around stats - and even the ones that do, not every player is a munchkin, right?  To others, its about the role and character, and the way they interact within the story - stats and such are just tools to help limit and control the world they are in.

Modifié par EternalWolfe, 18 avril 2010 - 05:27 .

[SkullandBonesmember]

EternalWolfe wrote...

You do realize that not all PnP games revolve around stats - and even the ones that do, not every player is a munchkin, right?  To others, its about the role and character, and the way they interact within the story - stats and such are just tools to help limit and control the world they are in.

Most of the PnP RPGers on other boards, but also here, have made it quite clear as Nozy pointed out, they play for stats and the like. Check out the video I provided of the one minute snip from Sci Vs. Fi if you haven't already. Technology wise, we are so beyond limited "interactive campfire tales" because when you get down to it, that's what PnP RPGs are.

[The Black Ghost]

This is the whole problem with ME2, its predictable... You will inevtiably be forced to fight your way out of almost everything.

[EternalWolfe]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Most of the PnP RPGers on other boards, but also here, have made it quite clear as Nozy pointed out, they play for stats and the like. Check out the video I provided of the one minute snip from Sci Vs. Fi if you haven't already. Technology wise, we are so beyond limited "interactive campfire tales" because when you get down to it, that's what PnP RPGs are.

I don't know the PnP RPGers on other boards, or all the ones here - but I also don't compeltly write off an entire group of people as falling into a single sterotype off a unknown percentage of the total.  What of the ones who play for the characters they create, for interacting with the story and world of their characters?  Why is everyone automaticlly written off as a roll-player, instead of a role-player?  Even moreso when Vaeliorin never even said anything about being focused on stats - he said he likes his combat to fun and challenging.  That if he has to do something in a game, then the gameplay should be fun(although 'fun' is a subjective word).  He even agreed that he would want more dialogue in the game at the end - or did you conventily miss that part?
 
As for your clip, so what?  What does that have to do with anything, even technology?  Gaming is a hobby, a form of chosen entertainment.  People enjoy doing different things - my grandma has a sewing machine, but she likes to sew by hand.  Is she doing something wrong?  No, she's doing something she enjoys doing.  PnPers are the same way - they play a game the way, and for what, they enjoy it for - some play to roll-play, others play to role-play.  Same goes for you - you like certain things, certain ways.  You enjoy it, and that's what you look for.  It doesn't make you any better then someone else - its just a difference in what one enjoys.
 
As for 'interactive campfire tales', I think you've got your limits going backwards - nothing gives the freedom of character action as PnP role-playing - videogames don't even come close to that sort of freedom.  Just because you aren't given the entire thing on a screen to show you how the world look, how it plays out, that only limits you by your imagination and your ability to think beyond what you can see.

Like I said, in the end, it all comes down to what you enjoy and want to play - no form is somehow less then another.

Why is that concept so hard for people to see?People just keep on pretending that their way is somehow 'better' then others.  Christ.

[SkullandBonesmember]

EternalWolfe wrote...

Why is that concept so hard for people to see?People just keep on pretending that their way is somehow 'better' then others.  Christ.

It isn't hard to see. And I'm not putting EVERYBODY in one category, just pointing out ratios from my personal experience corroborated with others'. Some prefer video game RPGs. And most RPG fans I've encountered online or off claim ME1 was about as close to a perfect video game RPG that's been released so far. And then because of so many people complaining, the majority of them who don't play for plot and characters, forced Bioware to rape the greatness of the original and give the sequel a 180.

You brought up what was the deal with me sharing that video of Sci Vs. Fi. PnP RPGS were mentioned, when we're discussing Mass Effect which is a video game.

"Video games can be emotional." That's what Wheaton said, and I completely agree with him. I won't deny PnPs can be emotional for some, but it's not for everybody. Ask 500 fans of movies if they would rather watch a silent black and white film from the 20s or Die Hard or Titanic or Ferris Bueller's Day Off and the majority will choose one of the latter three because it's more modern. Ask 500 GTA fans if they would rather play the original or 4 and the majority will say they want to play the 4th installment.

[SkullandBonesmember]

slimgrin wrote...

Your arguments get weaker with each post, my friend. And your movie comparison...are ****ing kidding? A real movie buff can tell the difference between Citizen Kane( or pick any classic ) and Titanic. They appreciate the former because it is a superior artistic achievment. Modernity has little to do with real discernment and taste, and yet you are content to categorize and generalize people with impunity. 

My suggestion to you is to try and experience new things, like different genres of games - that would be a start. And lay off the labeling of people. It's sure to fail you.

HELLO? I THINK CK IS A GOOD MOVIE! Anybody with half a brain cell knows that. I said a SILENT movie from the 20s because that's the equivalent of PnPs and video games with a lot of of RPG fans. And you think I haven't tried shooters? Yeah, I have. I'd rather play Heavy Rain, Final Fantasy X, and yes, ME1 any day over crap like Halo.

[Vaeliorin]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

EternalWolfe wrote...
Why is that concept so hard for people to see?../../../images/forum/emoticons/wondering.pngPeople just keep on pretending that their way is somehow
'better' then others.  Christ.

It isn't hard to see. And I'm not putting EVERYBODY in one category, just pointing out ratios from my
personal experience corroborated with others'. Some prefer video game RPGs. And most RPG fans I've encountered online or off claim ME1 was about as close to a perfect video game RPG that's been released so far. And then because of so many people complaining, the majority of them who don't play for plot and characters, forced Bioware to rape the
greatness of the original and give the sequel a 180.

If it makes you feel any better, I'm in the camp that ME isn't even an RPG because it doesn't allow for role-playing (seeing as I have little to no control over Shepard's personality beyond broad sweeps of nice or a-hole.)

"Video games can be emotional." That's what Wheaton said, and I completely agree with him. I won't deny PnPs
can be emotional for some, but it's not for everybody. Ask 500 fans of movies if they would rather watch a silent black and white film from the 20s or Die Hard or Titanic or Ferris Bueller's Day Off and the majority will choose one of the latter three because it's more modern. Ask 500 GTA fans if they would rather play the original or 4 and the majority
will say they want to play the 4th installment.

Newer != Better.  That's the kind of attitude that gives us crap like the Clash of the Titans remake, or Avatar.

Also, you're committing the Stormwind Fallacy.  Role-playing and optimization aren't mutually exclusive.  Things that just challenge how fast I can click hold no interest to me, I'd much rather challenge my brain, which is something easy combat doesn't do.

Also, since you're the person who wrote this:

SkullandBonesmember wrote...
And I refuse to bother with Dragon Age. Main character doesn't have a voice actor

I can't help but ignore anything you say about role-playing, seeing as how a voiced main character and role-playing are essentially mutually exclusive.

Modifié par Vaeliorin, 18 avril 2010 - 11:26 .

[SkullandBonesmember]

Vaeliorin wrote...

If it makes you feel any better, I'm in the camp that ME isn't even an RPG because it doesn't allow for role-playing (seeing as I have little to no control over Shepard's personality beyond broad sweeps of nice or a-hole.)

Which is why I play paragade. And as of right now, as I've pointed out, while there is a plethora of shooters that are released every year, very little RPGs are released. The more developers are willing to take risks, the more the franchise of "choice games" can evolve. There are just as many fans of Heavy Rain titles as there are of Halo titles, we just have so little to choose from unlike the Halo tards.

Vaeliorin wrote...

Newer != Better.  That's the kind of attitude that gives us crap like the Clash of the Titans remake, or Avatar.

Also, you're committing the Stormwind Fallacy.  Role-playing and optimization aren't mutually exclusive.  Things that just challenge how fast I can click hold no interest to me, I'd much rather challenge my brain, which is something easy combat doesn't do.

Christ, I never said newer equals better by default. Let me spell it out for you.

TODAY'S TECHNOLOGY MOST OF THE TIME ALLOWS FOR MUCH MORE ENJOYABLE EXPERIENCES WITH MEDIA UP TO AND INCLUDING VIDEO GAMES. >VIDEO GAMES<
Got that? Feel free to enjoy PnPs. PnPs aren't video games.

Vaeliorin wrote...

Also, since you're the person who wrote this:

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

And I refuse to bother with Dragon Age. Main character doesn't have a voice actor

I can't help but ignore anything you say about role-playing, seeing as how a voiced main character and role-playing are essentially mutually exclusive.

Then ignore me. But I made it clear on the original boards with how far we've come with technology I simply can't enjoy a game that was released within the past 8 years that relies on a silent protagonist.

[SkullandBonesmember]

And no combat fan has answered my question. What part of ME2 elicited the most emotion from you? A moment when a friend was in need of a hug the most or a headshot?

Modifié par SkullandBonesmember, 19 avril 2010 - 12:27 .

[SkullandBonesmember]

slimgrin wrote...

Games can't elicit emotions like movies can imo.

RPG fans disagree. And so do those from the Sci Vs. Fi documentary.

[Ibanez2009]

What is a game without dialogues? It's like a car without wheels! Dialogues is a MUST in EVERY GAME. I couldn't live without dialogues. When I played Dragon Age Origins I felt like I am in heaven. It was awesome and I hope the same for Mass Effect 3. Dialogues and Action at the same time. And of course that funny dialogues between the companions (like in Dragon Age). What is the english expression for that? Chatter? Banter? Well.. you know what I mean.



Greetings from Germany

[MrNose]

slimgrin wrote...
Games can't elicit emotions like movies can imo.

DISAGREE.


I could go with a lot of examples but...
Heavy Rain says "hello."

And...
Aeris' death in FF7. 
It may be laughable now, but it had a huge emotional impact on people when it happened.
www.wired.com/gaming/virtualworlds/commentary/games/2005/11/69475

[SkullandBonesmember]

MrNose wrote...

slimgrin wrote...Games can't elicit emotions like movies can imo.

DISAGREE.


I could go with a lot of examples but...
Heavy Rain says "hello."

And...
Aeris' death in FF7. 
It may be laughable now, but it had a huge emotional impact on people when it happened.
www.wired.com/gaming/virtualworlds/commentary/games/2005/11/69475

Exactly. And why can't video games be emotional when movies and TV shows can? Don't say they're real because most of them aren't. slim's argument reminds me of how movies and television were scoffed at when they were first introduced.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Ibanez2009 wrote...

What is a game without dialogues? It's like a car without wheels! Dialogues is a MUST in EVERY GAME. I couldn't live without dialogues. When I played Dragon Age Origins I felt like I am in heaven. It was awesome and I hope the same for Mass Effect 3. Dialogues and Action at the same time. And of course that funny dialogues between the companions (like in Dragon Age). What is the english expression for that? Chatter? Banter? Well.. you know what I mean.

Greetings from Germany

Tetris

[Dick Delaware]

slimgrim is completely on point. In terms of artistic quality, games are mostly sh*t. The only reason Heavy Rain gets mentioned because it is less bad than most. I'll start taking games seriously as an art form when they can talk about things like racism without using fantasy or sci-fi proxies.

Oh, and people think films and music are more emotionally affective art than books? F*cking incredible. Well, when crappy vampire novels are all the rage, I guess it's hard to take books seriously.

Modifié par Dick Delaware, 19 avril 2010 - 04:31 .

[Dick Delaware]

Hehe, no sh*t, slimgrim.

But yeah, even the best of games cannot compete with the best of films and books. Not even close. Sure, Planescape: Torment may be better written than 99% of the fantasy genre, but it doesn't help when the fantasy genre is mostly sh*t like R.A. Salvatore anyways. When I see a game with an exploration of themes like The Brothers Karamazov, I'll change my tune. Until that day comes, I damn well expect some decent gameplay.

Modifié par Dick Delaware, 19 avril 2010 - 05:00 .

[SkullandBonesmember]

Devil May Cry



Mass Effect



Final Fantasy X



Heavy Rain



Indigo Prophecy



Onimusha 3



Persona



To an EXTENT, ME2.



Need I continue? All games that go deep into an enjoyable narrative just as good as books and films. Think how much better they could have been simply with interactive dialogue.

[BellatrixLugosi]

The Black Ghost wrote...

This is the whole problem with ME2, its predictable... You will inevtiably be forced to fight your way out of almost everything.

Thats like alot of games.......

[SkullandBonesmember]

Bump?

[Aceyalone7777]

Actually dialogues were large enough. Not many (including me) cant follow a conversation that spans 15 minutes. On the other hand dialogues should become more frequent.



Shorter-spanned and more frequent!