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[inclemency]

I've found that the warrior/rogue Human Noble storyline is my favourite and have played it many times over.  There are some things that really bother me about it, however.  Inconsistencies in the social framework of that world have really come to the forefront when I play.  

This is a pretty insular world. The 'nobles' all would have known each other very well.  To have Cailen never to have spoken to Elissa/Aedon (I'll only refer to Elissa from now on), or Arl Eamon not recognise or acknowledge who she is (reference calling her 'friend' or 'warden' only, while she calls him 'your grace' - when she is of higher rank); or Ser Cauthrian refer to Loghein as her 'better' are jarring incongruencies.
 
The Couslands would have been very well known at 'court' in Denerim as they belong to the highest ranked and most powerful family in Ferelden. There would have been an estate in Denerim, as well. To have Elissa only acknowledged as the 'Warden' just strikes the wrong note, especially in the later game.  Elissa's identity as 'warden' would not have overshadowed her identity as possibly the last of the Couslands to the others of rank.  

Loghein certainly should have acknowledged her being a Cousland when talking about her being the 'puppeteer' at the landsmeet.  Elissa's companions also should have had some comment after Howe is killed, as well.

To not have Loghein's plotted campaign to take over the throne acknowledged is missing, too.  The whole thing should have been spelled out... trying to get rid of the Couslands and Arl Eamon, two of the most powerful and influential entities in Ferelden...and doing that BEFORE Ostagar, where the king was left to die, is a glaring omission.  Arl Eamon should have told that story at the Landsmeet.

These things do play true for any of the other storylines (including human mage, too, most likely, if this plays like the other mage stories), but so much is ignored in the warrior/rogue noble story .  

I wish I knew enough to write some of these conversations, but that's just beyond me.  I can only hope these points bother someone else who can!

[Herr Uhl]

inclemency wrote...

Loghein certainly should have acknowledged her being a Cousland when talking about her being the 'puppeteer' at the landsmeet. 

I thought this was directed towards Eamon.

[sylvanaerie]

Herr Uhl wrote...

inclemency wrote...

Loghein certainly should have acknowledged her being a Cousland when talking about her being the 'puppeteer' at the landsmeet. 

I thought this was directed towards Eamon.

no its directed to the warden.  All I can presume to excuse this is Howe had manufactured evidence of Cousland treason/alliance to Orlais in order to back up his slaughter of the family.  I highly doubt Loghain was stupid enough to believe it but perhaps in his paranoia and his habit of looking the other way when Howe pulls his stunts he was going along with it to further tear down the PC's credibility.  Quite obviously NONE of the nobles are falling for it but at that moment Loghain is grasping at any straws he can.

And as we all know, doing the Joining immediately changes you to an Orlesian...I thought everyone knew that

*Edit* and to original poster, Loghain did poison Eamon but he had nothing to do with the slaughter of the Cousland's.  The blame for that is Howe's alone.  I did truly think he was unaware at the time I saw him in Ostagar what had happened.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 16 avril 2010 - 03:19 .

[nranola]

Cailan does acknowledge the PC as Bryce Cousland's youngest--even takes a casual tone with him/her--and later on in Denerim the nobles in Gwarned Noble Tavern will also acknowledge the PC as a Cousland. As for being called Warden, well... once you join the Grey Wardens you're basically cut off from your former life so I don't see that as that big of an issue.

And the plan to get rid of the Couslands did happen before Ostagar. Unless you forgot the Human Noble origin story altogether? xD

Modifié par nranola, 16 avril 2010 - 03:19 .

[soignee]

are you kidding? I found the human origin to be so egotistical and self centred, especially around Land's Meet.

[SurelyForth]

Herr Uhl wrote...

inclemency wrote...

Loghein certainly should have acknowledged her being a Cousland when talking about her being the 'puppeteer' at the landsmeet. 

I thought this was directed towards Eamon.

Seeing how he says "And here we have the puppeteer" and then it focuses in on the PC walking in, he's clearly referring to the Warden.

The Landsmeet is as close to the HN has to a "homecoming". To call it "egotistical" would be silly, since all of the other origins (save the Dalish) have similar homecomings where the PC is recognized and acknowledged.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 16 avril 2010 - 03:21 .

[Herr Uhl]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

inclemency wrote...

Loghein certainly should have acknowledged her being a Cousland when talking about her being the 'puppeteer' at the landsmeet. 

I thought this was directed towards Eamon.

no its directed to the warden.

Ok, I guess that I always saw Eamon as the man that manipulates both you and Alastair to gain more influence (while helping you, of course).

[LadyDamodred]

It is implied from some of your responses in the game that Bryce kept his children in Highever. He and Eleanor would have gone to court and such, but it appears the kids stayed home. It may have been because your parents didn't want you caught up in the back-biting and whatnot of the other nobility and the Landsmeet. It could also have been Bryce's way of showing that he is a royalist and has no ambitions towards the throne.



Also, at the Landsmeet, your title has been stripped. You've also done everything as a Grey Warden. In this case, your words carry more weight as The Warden than as the orphan child of a noble family that had its rights and titles stripped. Anora can say she will restore your title before the Landsmeet, and Alistair would of course do it, but before Loghain is taken down, you have no title and authority as a member of the nobility from which to speak.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Remember, by the time of Landsmeet, your human noble is not considered as such anymore in the eyes of some. You family and house have been destroyed, your lands and titles given to Howe. So, no, it's not inconsitant for Loghain and Cauthrien not to aknowledge you as a noble, since technically, due to Howe's treachery, you are no longer one. At least until Loghain is removed from his p[osition.



Plus, in general, Wardens break off all ties and claims to their pasts, idealy.

[Anakha6]

nranola wrote...

Cailan does acknowledge the PC as Bryce Cousland's youngest--even takes a casual tone with him/her

To be fair Cailan takes a casual tone with any Grey Warden because of how in love with the order he is. As a warden you can get away with completely insulting him ('Your welcome means nothing to me human lord' etc).

[sylvanaerie]

Anakha6 wrote...

nranola wrote...

Cailan does acknowledge the PC as Bryce Cousland's youngest--even takes a casual tone with him/her

To be fair Cailan takes a casual tone with any Grey Warden because of how in love with the order he is. As a warden you can get away with completely insulting him ('Your welcome means nothing to me human lord' etc).

His response is funny if you are a CEF or DEF and tell him "You're no friend of mine, human lord."  Cailan can be quite charming when he wants to be.  It almost makes me want to be out of character nice to him.
Plus like Maric I think he has a thing for elves, Anora notwithstanding.

[nranola]

Anakha6 wrote...

nranola wrote...

Cailan does acknowledge the PC as Bryce Cousland's youngest--even takes a casual tone with him/her

To be fair Cailan takes a casual tone with any Grey Warden because of how in love with the order he is. As a warden you can get away with completely insulting him ('Your welcome means nothing to me human lord' etc).

Ah, the reason why I say that is because of what I read in the voiceover notes in the toolset. It goes:

Cailan: No need, Duncan. You are Bryce's youngest, are you not? I don't think we've ever actually met.
VO/Localization Comment: Comfortably familiar -- he and the PC never met, but they run in the same circles.

Modifié par nranola, 16 avril 2010 - 03:40 .

[inclemency]

Even if she is the Warden, folks who would have known she and her family would still see her as a Cousland, no matter what she is now. Only some (unscrupulous) other nobles would have fallen for bad stories about the Couslands. The nobles'  families would have been intertwined for generations, with lots of history there, Loghein and Howe stripping titles from her wouldn't make a difference, although their ruthlessness would have quieted them down...not too much, though, since civil war ensued.

Even if the kids were kept at home, as one person suggested, knowing her identity would change the conversations, it is still part of who she is, at the present, the highest ranked noble in Ferelden..being stripped of Highever doesn't change that. The Queen is a commoner, as is her father, totally without the hundreds of years of Ferelden history being intertwined with the Couslands.

Being possibly the last Cousland should make a difference in conversations, and should add to the story instead of being virtually ignored.  It really is a big missing piece to me.

To others above:  Cailan would have met her before at court.  I don't believe the kids were kept at Highever their whole lives, the family would have been too social for that.  Being at court a part of the year would have been part of life for a noble family, especially one of their rank.  The kids were being groomed for taking over Highever. Eleanor and Bryce would have exposed their children to every social circumstance, from being around kings to commoners. 

Modifié par inclemency, 16 avril 2010 - 04:01 .

[LadyDamodred]

inclemency wrote...

Even if she is the Warden, folks who would have known she and her family would still see her as a Cousland, no matter what she is now. Only some of the other nobles would have fallen for a story about them, since their families would have been intertwined for generations. Loghein and Howe stripping titles from her wouldn't make a difference.

Even if the kids were kept at home, as one person suggested, knowing her identity would change the conversations, it is still part of who she is, at the present, the highest ranked noble in Ferelden..being stripped of Highever doesn't change that. The Queen is a commoner, as is her father, totally without the hundreds of years of Ferelden history being intertwined with the Couslands.

Being possibly the last Cousland should make a difference in conversations, and should add to the story instead of being virtually ignored.  It really was a big missing piece to me.

There are nobles who acknowledge you through the game.  They know who you are and respect you and your family.  That being said, the Landsmeet is political.  You have NO authority to speak as a member of the Landsmeet.  The nobles, however much they like you and want to help you get your titles back, are not going to ally themselves with you for that reason.  You are there as The Warden.  Everything you have done is as The Warden.  That is why they back you.  As for saying it should play a bigger role throughout the game, I agree, to an extent.  There should have been slightly more reaction, similar to how Wynne responds when she learns.  In fact, her response is something I would have expected more from people.  I also wish there was an Alistair response to it.

And the queen is not a commoner.  She is the queen, and before that she was a noble.  It does not matter what her father was born as.  He was elevated to nobility when Maric made him the Teyrn of Gwaren.  His daughter, Anora, is a noble.  Hundreds of years of history don't matter in terms of power, only in terms of reputation.

Edit to take into account your edit.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 16 avril 2010 - 03:55 .

[sylvanaerie]

inclemency wrote...

Even if she is the Warden, folks who would have known she and her family would still see her as a Cousland, no matter what she is now. Only some of the other nobles would have fallen for a story about them, since their families would have been intertwined for generations. Loghein and Howe stripping titles from her wouldn't make a difference.

Even if the kids were kept at home, as one person suggested, knowing her identity would change the conversations, it is still part of who she is, at the present, the highest ranked noble in Ferelden..being stripped of Highever doesn't change that. The Queen is a commoner, as is her father.

Being possibly the last Cousland should make a difference in conversations, and should add to the story instead of being virtually ignored.  It really was a big missing piece to me.

It actually does but in little ways.  In Lothering you can persuade the Reverend Mother to release Sten to you since you are all they have by way of secular justice in Lothering without the Bann there.  In Redcliffe Teagan recognizes you (somewhat) as someone he thinks he knows (Teagan doesn't even like doing politics crap so that says a LOT about it right there.  In Ostagar Loghain also recognizes you from the Landsmeet.  Ser Perth asks what he should call you since you are a warden but also Bryce's daughter and doesn't want to be rude.  ALL the nobles in the Gnawed Noble Tavern recognize you when you turn in the quests there (Bann Alfstanna even promises aid when you retake your Terynir).  There are more but those are the most obvious ones.

Sometimes its the little things that matter and frankly I prefer the subtle differences in the game with a HN vs any other origin.  Expecting more IMO is more along the lines of player ego than actual storyline flaws.  I found the behavior of the NPCs in the game perfectly in fitting with someone who has had their name attached to scandal and been stripped of title.  Look at the first line a Cousland can give to Levi Dryden, saying his family name is a black one. 

[Sarah1281]

Several of the nobles do talk about it before the Landsmeet and promise that they'll aid you in recovering your title, though.

[LadyDamodred]

sylvanaerie wrote...
It actually does but in little ways.  In Lothering you can persuade the Reverend Mother to release Sten to you since you are all they have by way of secular justice in Lothering without the Bann there.  In Redcliffe Teagan recognizes you (somewhat) as someone he thinks he knows (Teagan doesn't even like doing politics crap so that says a LOT about it right there.  In Ostagar Loghain also recognizes you from the Landsmeet.  Ser Perth asks what he should call you since you are a warden but also Bryce's daughter and doesn't want to be rude.  ALL the nobles in the Gnawed Noble Tavern recognize you when you turn in the quests there (Bann Alfstanna even promises aid when you retake your Terynir).  There are more but those are the most obvious ones.

Sometimes its the little things that matter and frankly I prefer the subtle differences in the game with a HN vs any other origin.  Expecting more IMO is more along the lines of player ego than actual storyline flaws.  I found the behavior of the NPCs in the game perfectly in fitting with someone who has had their name attached to scandal and been stripped of title.  Look at the first line a Cousland can give to Levi Dryden, saying his family name is a black one. 

See, I didn't think Loghain actually recognized you, just that you look like your mom or dad.  Like Cailan, you seem familiar.  I am under the impression that your character has never been to a Landsmeet.

Hmmm, I didn't realize you could use the HN origin to free Sten.  How does that convo go?

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 16 avril 2010 - 03:59 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

soignee wrote...

are you kidding? I found the human origin to be so egotistical and self centred, especially around Land's Meet.

Eum, noble?
Is there any kind of nobility that isn't egotistical and self-centered?

Perfect origin for me

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

soignee wrote...

are you kidding? I found the human origin to be so egotistical and self centred, especially around Land's Meet.

Eum, noble?
Is there any kind of nobility that isn't egotistical and self-centered?

Perfect origin for me

Yes, and try playing the DN at Orzammar without making it about you.

[sylvanaerie]

LadyDamodred wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...
It actually does but in little ways.  In Lothering you can persuade the Reverend Mother to release Sten to you since you are all they have by way of secular justice in Lothering without the Bann there.  In Redcliffe Teagan recognizes you (somewhat) as someone he thinks he knows (Teagan doesn't even like doing politics crap so that says a LOT about it right there.  In Ostagar Loghain also recognizes you from the Landsmeet.  Ser Perth asks what he should call you since you are a warden but also Bryce's daughter and doesn't want to be rude.  ALL the nobles in the Gnawed Noble Tavern recognize you when you turn in the quests there (Bann Alfstanna even promises aid when you retake your Terynir).  There are more but those are the most obvious ones.

Sometimes its the little things that matter and frankly I prefer the subtle differences in the game with a HN vs any other origin.  Expecting more IMO is more along the lines of player ego than actual storyline flaws.  I found the behavior of the NPCs in the game perfectly in fitting with someone who has had their name attached to scandal and been stripped of title.  Look at the first line a Cousland can give to Levi Dryden, saying his family name is a black one. 

See, I didn't think Loghain actually recognized you, just that you look like your mom or dad.  Like Cailan, you seem familiar.  I am under the impression that your character has never been to a Landsmeet.

Hmmm, I didn't realize you could use the HN origin to free Sten.  How does that convo go?

Don't have Leli in your group when you talk to Reverend mother.  I only had one Coersion point with Cunning at like 16. Since she starts off asking for a donation and I always have the gold I give her the 5g. Not sure if thats required but it probably doesn't hurt.
You tell her you would like Sten released in your custody and she asks who you are to make such a request and you tell her (Persuade) I am the daughter of Teryn Cousland is that good enough? (paraphrased).  And she makes a comment about how you are the closest thing they have to secular justice in Lothering and lets him go in your custody.  But she also asks you get him out of town as quickly as possible too.

[inclemency]

What got me thinking this way is knowing how insular the whole society would have been. There are relatively few folks 'at the top'..those who can speak at the landsmeet, etc. These relatively few families would have known each other for generations...and would have known each other very well, their parents and children and other relatives, too. They would have intermarried and played with each other as children, and seen each other at court a couple of times a year. This wasn't a sprawling world where people are unknown to each other.

[sylvanaerie]

The game DOES address this familiarity but I don't understand to what extent you wanted it to? The Nobles DO recognize you they DO talk to you differently than they do to the other origin's PCs. The common folk tend to not know because they wouldn't have met you or known of you as Highever is far removed from the locale of the game. Once you leave the castle you pretty much are entering another world as far as recognition goes. Unless you bring it up to some people they would have no reason to know you. And as I pointed out the nobles DO recognize you.

[inclemency]

I still don't think you understand how this society actually would have operated, but that's okay, this topic is all imo on each of our parts. Maybe my education plays a part..I don't ever remember being bothered by the glaring inconsistencies in other games,etc. In this one, I do, though. No need to yell at me for bringing them up.

[sylvanaerie]

inclemency wrote...

I still don't think you understand how this society actually would have operated, but that's okay, this topic is all imo on each of our parts. Maybe my education plays a part..I don't ever remember being bothered by the glaring inconsistencies in other games,etc. In this one, I do, though. No need to yell at me for bringing them up.

Not yelling really just I don't know how to use the italics feature to emphasize my points and text is notorious for not allowing one to emphasize words you want to emphasize without seeming to yell or not emphasize what you want to.  I am failing to understand how you perceive the world I guess.  That would be my fault I suppose but I don't see the way the game presents it as being a glaring inconsistancy.  How much did you want the nobles to do in the game aside from recognize you and offer to help you regain your terynir? I think the breakdown in our communication lies there.  I don't see their behavior as inconsistant.  I see it as perfectly logical.  They are respectful, recognize you, even offer to support/help you.  Bann Sigurd even wishes he could have been there to help you kill Howe (Though this had more to do with his son than your PC but still he certainly doesn't care that your PC has "murdered" him).

Beyond that, I don't understand what you expect them to do?

[Jamie7791]

Jory also says something along the lines of "My Lady/Lord Cousland, it's an honor" when you ask him about his origins from Redcliffe.