159 réponses à ce sujet

[Swordfishtrombone]

This is something that bugs me about the game - while the dialog options allow paths that don't have you nodding along with the Chantry, they all tend to be abbrasive. It's not really possible to play the respectful atheist, the sort of thing I'd like to consider myself in real life.

So, for example, in Lothering, talking to the big boss of the Chantry there, she asks for a tithe - you have dialog options for saying you can't afford it, and another one to the effect of "Tithe to the Chantry? Are you kidding?" - all other options have you paying up.

Why not an option to the effect of "I appreciate the work you do to help people, but I don't want to fund the spreding of a faith I don't share"?

It seems that the game thinks that if you are an atheist, you must be abbrasive and confrontational.

Also, in the dwarven city, if you help the Chantry to set up shop there, and go to the new chantry to talk to the dwarf that set it up, you're given two dialogue options - either something like "I serve only the Maker" or "I'd better get a plackard on the door". In other words, you've got the choise of appearing a religious fanatic, or an arrogant ******.

What about: "I don't share the beliefs of the Chantry, but I do believe in freedom of expression - ideas should not be censored for being untraditional."?

[Chuvvy]

I have no problem with this. Hopefully they'll fix it in the next one. Or in an expansion.

[Tirigon]

I agree with you, OP. AND, being a chantry-hater myself, i would like a second, new option on the lines of "**** your Maker, go scare children with that crap, noone else believes it"

[Addai]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

So, for example, in Lothering, talking to the big boss of the Chantry there, she asks for a tithe - you have dialog options for saying you can't afford it, and another one to the effect of "Tithe to the Chantry? Are you kidding?" - all other options have you paying up.

Why not an option to the effect of "I appreciate the work you do to help people, but I don't want to fund the spreding of a faith I don't share"?

I don't think the respect part in "respectfully decline to participate" carries over in a highly traditional culture.  You either go through the formalities or you reject the religion.

I did pause as what to do in Lothering with my Dalish character.  I play her as being fairly respectful, and she was tempted to give something out of charity for all the obviously needy people, but in the end just said she couldn't give anything.  I was glad she didn't when the Mother implied in her reply that the tithe was to earn the Maker's favor.

[LadyDamodred]

You don't have the give the reverend mother money. There is a dialogue path and the correct choices have her understanding that times are hard. *shrugs*

[Swordfishtrombone]

LadyDamodred wrote...

You don't have the give the reverend mother money. There is a dialogue path and the correct choices have her understanding that times are hard. *shrugs*

My point was not about whether or not to pay up, but what kind of character you want to portray - I COULD of course say that I can't afford it, but that would be a lie. I am playing a character that strives to be truthful.

The reason I don't want to pay is that I don't want to help spread a religion I don't believe in - nothing against the practical help they give to people, which is why I don't mind doing the chantry board quests.

[Suron]

they can't POSSIBLY put in dialogue options for ALL POINTS OF view...



what if I want to play a character that openly insults and curses them everytime the chantry comes up? I don't have that option either...



what about the option to tell Duncan he's a tool..that's not there.



how about an option to tell Alistair to get lost..not there.



what about an option beat any elf you come across because you hate their race? not there.



how about being able to openly tell anyone that brings up any religious beliefs that they're ALL downright idiotic...not there



how about...



how about....



how about....



do you get it yet? good for you...you're a respectable atheist...hurray for you....

[Swordfishtrombone]

Addai67 wrote...

I don't think the respect part in "respectfully decline to participate" carries over in a highly traditional culture.  You either go through the formalities or you reject the religion.

I don't think it matters whether it carries over in highly traditional culture. It doesn't always carry over in real life either, but I still like to act that way. If people choose to take offense at such respectful disagreement, that's their problem and I don't lose any sleep over it. It'd just be nice to have the option.

[Addai]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I don't think the respect part in "respectfully decline to participate" carries over in a highly traditional culture.  You either go through the formalities or you reject the religion.

I don't think it matters whether it carries over in highly traditional culture. It doesn't always carry over in real life either, but I still like to act that way. If people choose to take offense at such respectful disagreement, that's their problem and I don't lose any sleep over it. It'd just be nice to have the option.

What I'm saying is that the kind of expression you refer to is a rather modern concept.  In the society, you either kept the rituals (whether really believing them or not) or you were a heathen (rejecting them outright).  It would be an anachronism, IMO, to introduce modern nuances such as you suggest.

[Sarah1281]

I agree. If I'm playing as a dwarf then I don't think the dwarven religion and the Chantry are mutually exclusive, my characters just don't happen to be Andrastrians and would not want to make needless enemies without wanting to have to actively participate. Given that at least half of the Origins don't lend themselves easily to following the Chantry (at least not in the beginning) the option to be neutral towards it would be nice.

[Tirigon]

Suron wrote...

they can't POSSIBLY put in dialogue options for ALL POINTS OF view...

what if I want to play a character that openly insults and curses them everytime the chantry comes up? I don't have that option either...

what about the option to tell Duncan he's a tool..that's not there.

how about an option to tell Alistair to get lost..not there.

what about an option beat any elf you come across because you hate their race? not there.

how about being able to openly tell anyone that brings up any religious beliefs that they're ALL downright idiotic...not there

how about...

how about....

how about....

do you get it yet? good for you...you're a respectable atheist...hurray for you....

In short: The game can´t have anything, so I want it rather to have nothing than a bit.


Good point, mate.


[irony off]

[Swordfishtrombone]

Suron wrote...

they can't POSSIBLY put in dialogue options for ALL POINTS OF view...

I'm not talking about just any point of view, but a point of view that is very common - that many people hold. The "angry atheist" is a stereotype that many atheists find offensive, so when you've got an option of playing either an ****, or a believer, it kind of rubs me the wrong way.

What if the game had it the other way around? That every - or at least the majority of - dialogue options involving religion had you either play a reasonable, kind and considerate atheist, or a fanatical A-hole of a believer? Would that not cause at least a little irritation for a large majority of religious players? I don't think it unreasonable to want to have an atheist character that is basically kind and considerate.

[Suron]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

Suron wrote...

they can't POSSIBLY put in dialogue options for ALL POINTS OF view...

I'm not talking about just any point of view, but a point of view that is very common - that many people hold. The "angry atheist" is a stereotype that many atheists find offensive, so when you've got an option of playing either an ****, or a believer, it kind of rubs me the wrong way.

What if the game had it the other way around? That every - or at least the majority of - dialogue options involving religion had you either play a reasonable, kind and considerate atheist, or a fanatical A-hole of a believer? Would that not cause at least a little irritation for a large majority of religious players? I don't think it unreasonable to want to have an atheist character that is basically kind and considerate.

your point?  what part of they can't put in all possible responses didn't you get...there's actual RELEVANT things to worry about the game lacking then catering to a minority.

[Suron]

besides people come here all the time with their own personal viewpoints of the world and how THEY thought things should have or could have been done.



did you work on DA:O?



do you even know how to code or write a script? (rhetorical question, don't look stupid by answering..because even if you have it's irrelevant)



don't like certain things YOU think should be there? go hire the voice actors again YOURSELF and code in the mod that fixes it.



till then..as I said...there's FAR more important things wrong/incoherent/inconsistant in the game then worrying about what YOU personally think shoulda been there.

[Swordfishtrombone]

Addai67 wrote...

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I don't think the respect part in "respectfully decline to participate" carries over in a highly traditional culture.  You either go through the formalities or you reject the religion.

I don't think it matters whether it carries over in highly traditional culture. It doesn't always carry over in real life either, but I still like to act that way. If people choose to take offense at such respectful disagreement, that's their problem and I don't lose any sleep over it. It'd just be nice to have the option.

What I'm saying is that the kind of expression you refer to is a rather modern concept.  In the society, you either kept the rituals (whether really believing them or not) or you were a heathen (rejecting them outright).  It would be an anachronism, IMO, to introduce modern nuances such as you suggest.

I don't think it would be an anachronism - there have always been people who just don't believe the majority religion, and the only reason they've been pretty silent is that they fear percecution. Your character is kinda above such fears; being percecuted already, and being quite powerful, with powerful allies as well.

Besides, there WERE examples in history too of religious dissent that managed to stay largely respectful, and "modern" in it's outlook. Look at Spinoza, for example - a very thoughtful pantheist at a time whe that was a serious religious no-no. 

In European history, at a time when it was dangerous to question the curch doctrine, there were openly sceptical authors that wrote things questioning even the existence or nature of God, but veiled it into a dialogue format, being careful to end with something like "this is why we must rely on faith, and reason can't be trusted", after essentially demolishing the religious position with arguments. David Hume's "Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion" has one such way of being skeptical, while not openly admitting to non-belief.

Even in ancient greece, you had people questioning the existence of gods - that's where the problem of evil was first identified (I think - there might of course be earlier versions).

[Raiil]

I'd like more options too, to be honest. My F!mage, while she believes in the Maker and Andraste, is a bit of a heretic- she doesn't think the Maker has left necessarily, and she's disregarded a lot of the clap trap that all organised religions have. And those sorts of views have prevailed throughout history- just look at the Catholic Church and their inquisitions. It wasn't just against non-believers, they also targeted those who followed a different path to Christ.

[Suron]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I don't think the respect part in "respectfully decline to participate" carries over in a highly traditional culture.  You either go through the formalities or you reject the religion.

I don't think it matters whether it carries over in highly traditional culture. It doesn't always carry over in real life either, but I still like to act that way. If people choose to take offense at such respectful disagreement, that's their problem and I don't lose any sleep over it. It'd just be nice to have the option.

What I'm saying is that the kind of expression you refer to is a rather modern concept.  In the society, you either kept the rituals (whether really believing them or not) or you were a heathen (rejecting them outright).  It would be an anachronism, IMO, to introduce modern nuances such as you suggest.

I don't think it would be an anachronism - there have always been people who just don't believe the majority religion, and the only reason they've been pretty silent is that they fear percecution. Your character is kinda above such fears; being percecuted already, and being quite powerful, with powerful allies as well.

Besides, there WERE examples in history too of religious dissent that managed to stay largely respectful, and "modern" in it's outlook. Look at Spinoza, for example - a very thoughtful pantheist at a time whe that was a serious religious no-no. 

In European history, at a time when it was dangerous to question the curch doctrine, there were openly sceptical authors that wrote things questioning even the existence or nature of God, but veiled it into a dialogue format, being careful to end with something like "this is why we must rely on faith, and reason can't be trusted", after essentially demolishing the religious position with arguments. David Hume's "Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion" has one such way of being skeptical, while not openly admitting to non-belief.

Even in ancient greece, you had people questioning the existence of gods - that's where the problem of evil was first identified (I think - there might of course be earlier versions).

we'll wait for you to get those VA's together and create this wonderful mod then....or are you one to whine withouth any backbone or purpose other then to find something wrong?

bet that's why you're a "respectful atheist".....had to find something to complain about religion too huh..

we really don't care about your or anyone elses relgious beliefs, even if it's a non-existant belief. 

and do you really think even if the option was there...considering the world this is set in..they would just smile back and say have a nice day?  you can't be that naive

I bet the elves "respectfully" denied converting to the chant of light belief and look what that got them....the dorf in orzammar that opens a chantry if you help him even causes the chantry to consider another march against the dwarfs..

but you go ahead with your "respect" all you think you want.

Modifié par Suron, 16 avril 2010 - 06:06 .

[Swordfishtrombone]

Suron wrote...

besides people come here all the time with their own personal viewpoints of the world and how THEY thought things should have or could have been done.

did you work on DA:O?

do you even know how to code or write a script? (rhetorical question, don't look stupid by answering..because even if you have it's irrelevant)

don't like certain things YOU think should be there? go hire the voice actors again YOURSELF and code in the mod that fixes it.

till then..as I said...there's FAR more important things wrong/incoherent/inconsistant in the game then worrying about what YOU personally think shoulda been there.

Suron - why do you take offense at people offering constructive criticism? The way you come at me with all guns blazing, you'd think I'd just commited some unforgivable offense against you!

The reason I bother to write here on the forums, and write complaints and conserns I have IN ADDITION to the many times I've defended the game and pointed out how much I enjoy it, is because I care about the game, and would like to see it improved; if not for DA:O, then future Bioware games, being a fan of the company.

So YOU think that my concern is irrelevant, fine. You are entitled to your opinion. No reason to bite my head off for disagreeing.

As I said earlier, I am not wanting every possible dialogue option to be added - I am just arguing that ONE particular kind of dialogue path is the kind that is commonly enough desired by players to justify adding it to the game. I do not think that that is unreasonable, nor do I think I deserve to be personally attacked with insults for bringing it up.

[soignee]

yeah, this. I only play dwarves and they're equally as baffled by this chantry nonsense.

[Swordfishtrombone]

Suron wrote...

and do you really think even if the option was there...considering the world this is set in..they would just smile back and say have a nice day?  you can't be that naive

No, I would expect that some characters would overreact and insult my character, and generally make themselves look like intolerant asses, and I'm completely fine with that - as I mentioned earlier, I don't lose any sleep over people viewing respectful disagreement or criticism as some kind of an attack against their person, and making an ass of themselves in the process. 

[Tirigon]

Suron wrote...


and do you really think even if the option was there...considering the world this is set in..they would just smile back and say have a nice day?  you can't be that naive

I bet the elves "respectfully" denied converting to the chant of light belief and look what that got them....the dorf in orzammar that opens a chantry if you help him even causes the chantry to consider another march against the dwarfs..

but you go ahead with your "respect" all you think you want.

Well, You can still show respect. If the other one proves to be a fanatical douchebag then, you can react and respectfully cut their f*cking heads off.

You can´t kill enough templars anyway, come to think of that.... Not even as bloodmage.

[Raiil]

Swordfishtrombone has a point- purely from an RP perspective, getting to flesh out your character's religious beliefs is nice and helps with immersion. The point of the game is not to make everyone like you and for everything to be sunshine and daises spurting from a unicorn's arse; having a character who can express clear feelings in a multitude of ways helps draw a person deeper into the game. It creates potential conflict or raises questions.

[Sarah1281]

I bet the elves "respectfully" denied converting to the chant of light belief and look what that got them....the dorf in orzammar that opens a chantry if you help him even causes the chantry to consider another march against the dwarfs..

They threaten a march because the Assembly restricts the new Chantry's rights and their leader is killed. Obviously, this outrages them.

[RavenousBear]

I completely agree with you; I hope they improve the dialogue choices.