255 réponses à ce sujet

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Didn't romance anyone in ME1, but can't really blame them.
It's rather baffling that a Sole Survivor Shep doesn't get any significant "F**k you Cerberus" lines.
Telling the Illusive Man and that you won't work for him doesn't have the same impact when one's default casual clothing has a Cerberus logo on it...
If at least it'd been ripped off...

Modifié par DarthCyclopsRLZ, 20 avril 2010 - 11:37 .

[TMA LIVE]

I think Ash and Kaidan have good reasons to be mad at you. They're just a little angry, confused, don't know what to do. And they send a good email asking for forgiveness. So I have nothing against them.

With Liara, I respect that she fought to save my body, but the person she is now is a person my Shepard can't love. She's changed too much, and her motives don't justify it (at least to me). A part of me wants to wait in hopes that she'll be back to the way she was or become someone better in Mass Effect 3, but after giving a lot of thought, I don't think my Shepard can ever love her again. Instead, he just feels sorry for her. Maybe the Liara DLC will change my mind, but I doubt it.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 20 avril 2010 - 11:55 .

[Jax Sparrow]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Frankly, I'm rather amused by the people who insist that a willingness to follow Shepard into hell must translate into joining Cerberus.

Do you understand where the name Cerberus comes from?  I am rather amused that you fail to insist that a willingness to follow Shepard into hell, equals a willingness to work with Shepard... I refer you to Tali if you also fail to understand the difference between working for Shepard and working for Cerberus.

[Cypher0020]

I'm not exactly mad....I can't imagine what I'd do in that situation.... what irked me was the lack of responses that leads to an uncomfortable fallout afterwards



Really though, Horizon leaves Shepard more distracted than anything...

[Beholderess]

jlb524 wrote...

Beholderess wrote...

However, Ask/Kaidan's complete lack of trust is insulting. Tali has more personal reasons to hate Cerberus than Ashley does, yet she is willing to trust Shepard and believe in him/her.

Why should they trust Shepard?  She/he is working for a known terrorist organization.  Besides, they say they trust Shepard but they do not trust Cerberus. 

What if your lover/friend game back from the dead after 2 years and joined up with the taliban?  How would you react to them?

Plus, people are forgetting that a romanced Ashley and Kaidan send you an email apologizing for their initial reaction and giving the two of you some hope for the future.  Their initial reaction was born out of shock.  They went home, thought about it the situation and the meeting, and then sent you an email.  I found this completely reasonable. 

As I said, if it was my friend, I would first try to think of come valid reason for him/her to do so, espetially if s/he never shown any sympathy for such organisations before (and if s/he had, we wouldn't be friends by now).

As for the emails - they don't help matters much. Ashley's email is ok - she displayed a rather strong hope for the future, and when she called Shepard "Skipper", my heart melted. That's why my maleShep is staying with her. Lol, he is really too forgiving.
Kaidan's email, however, left me even more frustrated than before. "Maybe"? That's all you have to say me, "maybe"?! And "but I thought that night meant something". Yeah, it meant much, and don't you go blaming me that it no longer does for you. Sorry, that won't fly.

[Beholderess]

Privateerkev wrote...

I try to look at my Shep's relationships like I look at my own. For me, it is all about communication and maintainence. In ME2, whether your maleShep is with Ash or Liara, there is neither communication or maintainence.

Shep and Liara/Ash go through this massive adventure together in ME1. They share an intimate moment before Ilos. They trust each other as squadmates and lovers. Fight side-by-side against the "big evil." And what happens in ME2? Ash throws a temper tantrum in front of your squadmates and Liara treats you more like a minor inconvenience. Oh they send an email like that is supposed to fix everything. But where is the trust? The one-on-one conversation letting you try to explain things? Even a FTL conversation would have been better. Nah, they just cut you lose and then hope you'll still give them a shot even though they have emotionally and physically abandoned you while you go off and do what can be considered the most important act of your life to that point.

So, there seems to be no communication in the relationship. And no attempt at maintainence beyond one simple one-shot-fix-all email. So, it was quite easy for me to move my Shep on to other possibilities. Which, is what I suspect BW wanted. To cut ties to past characters so you can become more invested in this new group that is supposed to be your companions on a suicide mission.

So, I wasn't angry at the ME1 LI's but I did write them off. Their behavior put me off and made it easier to connect to the three other oppurtunities that were presented. That being said, I hope those who are still fans of the ME1 LI's get some payoff in ME3. Just like I hope those of us who are fans of the ME2 LI's get payoff as well.

In my opinion the strength of the game is that it lets you guide your Shep to be what you want him/her to be. The above are just my reasons for why I guide my Shep a certain way. If others are still connected and emotionally invested in the ME1 LI's, then I hope they get an awesome ending and/or story in the next game. But for me personally, I never really liked the ME1 LI's much anyways. Their behavior in ME2 just solidified it.

This.

[Beholderess]

DarthCyclopsRLZ wrote...
It's rather baffling that a Sole Survivor Shep doesn't get any significant "F**k you Cerberus" lines.
Telling the Illusive Man and that you won't work for him doesn't have the same impact when one's default casual clothing has a Cerberus logo on it...
If at least it'd been ripped off...

I hear you.
Lol, walked the whole game in that (rather ridiculous-looking) brown leather outfit cos' I didn't want to have a Cerberus logo on me.

[Beholderess]

Jax Sparrow wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Frankly, I'm rather amused by the people who insist that a willingness to follow Shepard into hell must translate into joining Cerberus.

Do you understand where the name Cerberus comes from?  I am rather amused that you fail to insist that a willingness to follow Shepard into hell, equals a willingness to work with Shepard... I refer you to Tali if you also fail to understand the difference between working for Shepard and working for Cerberus.

This.
Oh, and that's pretty much how the dialogue with Garrus opun joining can come. That Garrus is willing to follow Shepard into hell, Shepard appears to be exactly there and needs someone s/he can trust and rely upon more now than ever. Someone who is clearly on Shepard's side on this bug-ridden ship.
Strange how some companions understand what loyalty means (Tali, Garrus), some are more than willing to honor past friendship, even though obligations are keeping them elsewhere (Wrex) and some...don't.

[screwoffreg]

Honestly my Fem-Shep has become like Cate Blanchett at the end of the movie Elizabeth...no more romances.



She has been burned by the Galaxy too many times...

[Beholderess]

Hmm, there might be another reason why I am mad at this whole situation.
Basically, Ash and Kaidan dump Shep because s/he is with Cerberus, right?
From a completely in-character perspective, Shep had a choice, and Ask/Kai reaction might be considered as a logical reprecussion of said choice.
But from an out-of-character pespective, the player did not have any other choice. The game is written that way.
So, for me as a player, all this situation feels as if I am being punished for something I've had completely no control over.
It can be argued (not that I'd agree with it, but still) that all that happened between Shep and Virmire survivor is Shepard's fault. But it is most certainly not the player's fault. But player feels punched by the development of events.

[Dean_the_Young]

Beholderess wrote...

Jax Sparrow wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Frankly, I'm rather amused by the people who insist that a willingness to follow Shepard into hell must translate into joining Cerberus.

Do you understand where the name Cerberus comes from?  I am rather amused that you fail to insist that a willingness to follow Shepard into hell, equals a willingness to work with Shepard... I refer you to Tali if you also fail to understand the difference between working for Shepard and working for Cerberus.

This.
Oh, and that's pretty much how the dialogue with Garrus opun joining can come. That Garrus is willing to follow Shepard into hell, Shepard appears to be exactly there and needs someone s/he can trust and rely upon more now than ever. Someone who is clearly on Shepard's side on this bug-ridden ship.
Strange how some companions understand what loyalty means (Tali, Garrus), some are more than willing to honor past friendship, even though obligations are keeping them elsewhere (Wrex) and some...don't.

Garrus is willing to join you because, as he says himself, he screwed up so bad that he can't even trust his own judgement, so he's in no place to judge Shepard. In ME1, Cerberus was exactly the sort of people Garrus worked to stopped, because they were actors just like the dearly departed Doctor Heart. Garrus can't even stand up for his own morality without Shepard holding his hand.

Tali is a young woman who runs away from her role in the Migrant Fleet and works with the very people who attacked them. There are a lot of descriptions that apply to people like that. 'AWOL' is one. 'Treason' is another. That she does it for one (wo)man who she is not-quite-secretly besotted with only goes to show where her priorities are.

If your examples of ideal loyalty are a soldier who's abandoned his own moral code and a young woman who acts more like a personality cult follower, then you have a very scewed vision of what loyalty entails.


Jax, if you had bothered to read the post in its entireity you would have seen a extended explanation of what the saying actually means. Once you do, feel free to respond and address whatever point you wish.

[FlintlockJazz]

I agree with OP.

[smudboy]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Warning: Spoilers ahead

It seems absolutely everyone is mad at the ME1 LI's, am I the only one who see's where theyre coming from?

Lets look at Ashley and Kaidan. They are loyal Alliance soldiers through and through and suddenly they hear their old love Shepard isnt dead. At first they were more than likely ecstatic about the fact that Shep is alive.

From two years ago.

Of course, they have no way of contacting a recently resurrected Shepard so they wait around and wait for Shep to contact them.

If Anderson can, which he does, then they can.  Especially since Ashley/Kaidan were sent on a mission specifically to investigate Shepard/Cerberus.  What, you're saying an email isn't good information gathering?

This would be childs play for Liara.  But she has...other...interests.

They love Shep, and more than likely though that Shep felt the same way and would contact them asap. As time passed, they start to wonder why they havent heard from Shep.

They loved Shep two years ago?  Maybe because Shepard died and was rebuilt?  That the reason they were brought back has nothing to do with their romantic relationships, i.e. Shepard has more immediate, better things to do?

And then they get to the stage where they start to feel mad at Shep for not trying to get a hold of him/her, add this on to the fact that they also heard that Shepard is working with Cerberus. Cerberus people!

I can understand the Alliance hostility toward Cerberus, but not Liara's.  Them feeling mad at Shepard for not emailing them is ****ing retarded, when they can easily email/contact Shepard through Anderson/Udina.

Whew, lets get on to Liara. If you have read the Redemption comics, you know that Liara went to Hell and back just to get Shepards body back, while I havent read the last issue, I am aware that Feron, her drell contact, lost his life to help Liara get Shep's body. If that doesn't earn her some brownie points with you, then I dont know what will. If Liara never did what she did, SHepard is still dead and the Collectors are never stopped and wham bam all us Humans are gone.(I understand this is purely speculation but come on, if Shep isnt alive, the Collectors are most likely going to succeed). Oh and thats not mentioning what the Reapers would do after the Collectors bring them enough specimens to finish off the human reaper. So, its safe to say that Liara has earned a large amount of brownie points at this point. Lets fast forward to the Liara/Shep reunion. You two share a kiss and she expresses happiness that you are alive. But, big shocker, she wont leave with you. Feron sacrificed his life to help Liara get Shep's body. Liara rightfully so wants to avenge his death. And because of Shep's wondeful timing, he/she shows up just as Liara is at the cusp of finding the Shadow Broker. Liara loves Shep, but she CANT leave to help him/her, not when she's this close to finding someone as powerful/evil/manipulative as the Shadow Broker. She wants to avenge Feron's death, if it wasnt for him, Liara never would have gotten Shep's body back. Am i the only person who understands why she didnt just up and leave everything she was doing?

This is one giant ad hominem.  Liara's reaction and retcon to Shepard/Feron doesn't make sense, and Shepard's reaction to Liara doesn't make sense/was handled horribly.  A woman who sacrificed herself all for a corpse on the sheer hope they'd become Cyber Jesus, then spend the next two years seeking revenge for the unknown fate on a triple-crossing lieing side-kick, does not make sense.  When the goal of all her trials is standing right in her office, and all she can do is a hug/kiss or go into melodramatic monologues while standing up from her chair every other response.  Knowing full well what Shepard is and represents, that she was part of the mission to stop Sovereign, that her entire life was spent researching Protheans and knowing the full fate of them and the entire galaxy, and that Shepard is still on his quest to fight the Reapers: but this girl wants revenge on some lying putz?

Ditto with Shepard.  He/she doesn't console her, remind her how thankful she is.  No, Shepard's all business with either stating "the mission is important" or just getting mad at her.  Does Shepard even care of being alive?  Does Shepard care that Liara did all this?  Combine that if she was Shepard's LI: does not compute.

[tonnactus]

I am pissed that shepardt is a dumb puppet of the illusive man in Mass Effect 2.Not at the resonable reaction of former squadmembers.

[tonnactus]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

So we will get rid of this band of badass's and get a bunch of new guys who will not get any closure during the big battle.................

Ya thats so smart <_<

I'm not saying it's smart; in fact, it's probably the absolute worst thing Bioware could ever hope to do.

But it is possible.

A squad of spectres.Who dont want  that?

[tonnactus]

The Governator wrote...

I hope it is just with dlc.  I try not to down on people's favorite characters, but I really don't want a Liara-centric game.  I do not like her...at all. 

Dont buy it.Problem solved.

[Cypher0020]

@smudboy



that's so true. On my Shep/Liara runs.... when you find ou that either your good friend or lover is virtually the reason responsibile you're even breathing.... all you can say is... "the mission is more important?!"



WTF x9000.....



I'd hold her hostage and start demanding answers. Shepard died and missed two years of his/her life.... hell yes I want answers!



Oh and that kiss/hug....? Damn. Totally blown off on Horizon and only a kiss and a damn quest from Horizon....



Shepard got screwed big time in this game...

[Beholderess]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Beholderess wrote...

Jax Sparrow wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Frankly, I'm rather amused by the people who insist that a willingness to follow Shepard into hell must translate into joining Cerberus.

Do you understand where the name Cerberus comes from?  I am rather amused that you fail to insist that a willingness to follow Shepard into hell, equals a willingness to work with Shepard... I refer you to Tali if you also fail to understand the difference between working for Shepard and working for Cerberus.

This.
Oh, and that's pretty much how the dialogue with Garrus opun joining can come. That Garrus is willing to follow Shepard into hell, Shepard appears to be exactly there and needs someone s/he can trust and rely upon more now than ever. Someone who is clearly on Shepard's side on this bug-ridden ship.
Strange how some companions understand what loyalty means (Tali, Garrus), some are more than willing to honor past friendship, even though obligations are keeping them elsewhere (Wrex) and some...don't.

Garrus is willing to join you because, as he says himself, he screwed up so bad that he can't even trust his own judgement, so he's in no place to judge Shepard. In ME1, Cerberus was exactly the sort of people Garrus worked to stopped, because they were actors just like the dearly departed Doctor Heart. Garrus can't even stand up for his own morality without Shepard holding his hand.

Tali is a young woman who runs away from her role in the Migrant Fleet and works with the very people who attacked them. There are a lot of descriptions that apply to people like that. 'AWOL' is one. 'Treason' is another. That she does it for one (wo)man who she is not-quite-secretly besotted with only goes to show where her priorities are.

If your examples of ideal loyalty are a soldier who's abandoned his own moral code and a young woman who acts more like a personality cult follower, then you have a very scewed vision of what loyalty entails.


Jax, if you had bothered to read the post in its entireity you would have seen a extended explanation of what the saying actually means. Once you do, feel free to respond and address whatever point you wish.

Well, I've always placed loyalty to persons (friends, relatives, comrades etc) higher than a loyalty to an organisation. Guess that's just me, then,

[Dean_the_Young]

And who says that Ash or Kaiden don't have friends, relatives, comrades in the Alliance? It's rather self-centered to think you're the only thing in the world to them.



Loyalty doesn't mean you should or have to go along with bad decisions. Indeed, the opposite: friends don't let friends drive drunk, for example. Kaiden and Ash are in the morally superior position and company, not Shepard. Sure, there's poor writing abound, but it doesn't change the underlying point that, yes, Shepard has officially and willingly joined forces with an abhorrent group (depending on your view of Cerberus), which is something unfathomable two years ago.



There's healthy loyalty and then there are cults of personality, and Kaiden and Ash tend to show the first while Tali and Garrus follow the second.

[FlintlockJazz]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And who says that Ash or Kaiden don't have friends, relatives, comrades in the Alliance? It's rather self-centered to think you're the only thing in the world to them.

Loyalty doesn't mean you should or have to go along with bad decisions. Indeed, the opposite: friends don't let friends drive drunk, for example. Kaiden and Ash are in the morally superior position and company, not Shepard. Sure, there's poor writing abound, but it doesn't change the underlying point that, yes, Shepard has officially and willingly joined forces with an abhorrent group (depending on your view of Cerberus), which is something unfathomable two years ago.

There's healthy loyalty and then there are cults of personality, and Kaiden and Ash tend to show the first while Tali and Garrus follow the second.

I agree totally on the Ash and Kaidan bit, given the situation they are reacting as I would expect someone would.  Tali and Garrus though I don't think is a case of personality cult, but rather deeper.

Garrus has lost his entire squad and pretty much has no purpose or cause when you find him, so he has nothing other than his friendship to you to base his decision on anymore, and may even be suffering from depression, making him more likely to cling onto familiar people and surroundings.  Shepard saving him also helps to reassert his trust in Shepard if not the group he's with.

Tali shows signs of distrust towards her superiors in the Quarian fleet, particularly on Haestrom when you ask whether the data was worth it, and it must not be forgotten that she does actually turn you down if you try and recruit her the first time you meet her on Horizon, showing misgivings towards the mission but still choosing to go ahead with it out of a sense of duty.  Again you also rescue her, reasserting a degree of loyalty from her.  Her joining up seems to indicate a desire to get away from the fleet, though there is indeed a degree of fangirlism going on too with her.

[Beholderess]

Again, I've never said that Ash/Kaidan should just leave whatever they were doing and join the squad. It would be admirable if they did (from the point of view of quite Chaotic person I am=)), but I perfectly understand why they won't, just as I understand why Wrex is not coming. Liara's excuse is much more flimsy, by the way, but at least she doesn't call Shep traitor.

What insults me is their willingness to immediately assume the worst about the person they supposedly knew and respected. It's not like your friends are unfalliable, but I thought it's usual to give them benefit of doubt.

[FlintlockJazz]

Beholderess wrote...

Again, I've never said that Ash/Kaidan should just leave whatever they were doing and join the squad. It would be admirable if they did (from the point of view of quite Chaotic person I am=)), but I perfectly understand why they won't, just as I understand why Wrex is not coming. Liara's excuse is much more flimsy, by the way, but at least she doesn't call Shep traitor.
What insults me is their willingness to immediately assume the worst about the person they supposedly knew and respected. It's not like your friends are unfalliable, but I thought it's usual to give them benefit of doubt.

Well, if you think about it they did give you the benefit of the doubt at first.  They were on Horizon because they heard that you had joined Cerberus and wanted to see it for themselves.  They then assumed what they were hearing was true, and since we don't know what rumours TiM was sending out exactly beyond that you were working with Cerberus, so maybe them finding out that you are indeed working for Cerberus lends credence to the rest of the rumour in which it is said that you have been pulling off the heads of kittens and eating asari brains.

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 22 avril 2010 - 10:45 .

[taigin]

I agree with OP. I do honestly understand the reaction from Kaidan and Ashley. Imagining myself in the same position as them I think I would react similar. If my BF disappeared in an accident, two years passing by me thinking he is dead and he suddenly shows up again (me hearing rumours about it before the confrontation) I wouldn't exactly be happy and go "Hiiii, I missed you so!!". The reaction would be something like "where the hell have you been??!" with me being both angry and confused. Add to that, that he joined some organisation with extreme values and methods i would be even more confused and angry.



I don't think it's really that ilogical that Kaidan and Ash assume Shepard been alive during these two years. It would honestly be the first assumption I would make. It's a Sci-fi world so using real world logics can be difficult but the technology used to ressurect Shepard seemed like something unique and rare so I don't blame Kaidan/Ash for making the same assumptions of Shepard being alive.

[KalReegarVasNeema]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Ecael wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Ecael wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Collider wrote...

Yea, you're going to have to invent another reason Ecael.

Liara also has the knowledge of the Prothean beacons and cipher from mind-melding, does she not?

Shepard has that and is more valuable then her..................

Yet Sovereign's second target was Matriarch Benezia and Saren's first target was Liara, who barely managed to survive because of Shepard arriving just in time. Liara knows far more than Shepard being her own information network as well.

That was in the first game, this is ME2. Shepard is more valuable then liara in ME2.

Liara still knows more than Shepard. Cerberus isn't very forthcoming with their information -- in fact, Shepard gets lied to a lot -- while Liara is an information network. Liara was with Shepard throughout most of Mass Effect 1 and is equally responsible for the destruction of Sovereign.

Why would Shepard be more valuable? Just because Cerberus spent money on bringing him back?

No because he in fact can work the beacons and has the cipher. That right there is more valuable then Liara. Not to mention it was thanks to him, Wrex and Ash that the council did not get killed and the Reapers where delayed. Also the point that Harbinger whants Shepards body alot hsows he is very valuable.

Liara might know about the becons, but she can't work them or understand them, the only reason why she knew it was Illos because when she meld with Shepard, she saw the visions through his mind and he can understand it.

Liara was importent in ME, but only to get to Illos, thats it.

To be fair, if you hadn't pushed Kaiden/Ash out of the way in the first 20 minutes of the game then they would have gotten the vision. Beacons don't seem too picky like that. She was the one who understood the messages. It's perfectly reasonable for the Collectors to have wanted to take her too. I mean think about it, they wanted shepard for the exopsure to the thorvan (or w/e it's called I can't remember) and the protheans, both of which Liara had. And Shepard wasn't on the ship so next best thing.