255 réponses à ce sujet

[Beholderess]

Jax Sparrow wrote...

People are silly in the head sometimes. I agree that it shows how little Ashley and Kaidan really care about you. "We would have followed you through hell, Commander" "Oh really, but now that I am in hell you won't follow me?... I don't follow"

This!
And that's why my femShep is happy with Garrus.

MaleShep is willing to give Ashley another chance, though, but he is really noble and forgiving - almost too much so.

[Beholderess]

jlb524 wrote...

I don't know why people are so hard on Ashley and Kaidan. I think their anger was justified. I wanted the option to tell them that I agreed with what they were saying and to drop Cerberus and rejoin the Alliance. Unfortunately, I didn't have that option as the game forces you to work for freakin' Cerberus. I'm still unhappy about that

Well, I hated being forced to work with Cerberus too. Still hate it. I also hate the unability of player to explain his/her position and situation.
However, Ask/Kaidan's complete lack of trust is insulting. Tali has more personal reasons to hate Cerberus than Ashley does, yet she is willing to trust Shepard and believe in him/her.

[The Governator]

Ecael wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Just saying, Liara got alot of attention, hell she is going to play a huge part in ME3 because of her plot with the SB.

Judging by the code and sound bites already in the game, that SB plot is going to be resolved either in a DLC or expansion to Mass Effect 2.

I hope it is just with dlc.  I try not to down on people's favorite characters, but I really don't want a Liara-centric game.  I do not like her...at all.  I deal with her with as much brevity as absolutely possible.  If they can do this with dlc, then it can be resolved, and so much the better (because I will not buy it). 

If her fans get what they want out of it, great.  But the rest of us should not be forced to deal with it in ME3.  It is a subplot.  I want to get on with the larger story. 

[The Governator]

Beholderess wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I don't know why people are so hard on Ashley and Kaidan. I think their anger was justified. I wanted the option to tell them that I agreed with what they were saying and to drop Cerberus and rejoin the Alliance. Unfortunately, I didn't have that option as the game forces you to work for freakin' Cerberus. I'm still unhappy about that

Well, I hated being forced to work with Cerberus too. Still hate it. I also hate the unability of player to explain his/her position and situation.
However, Ask/Kaidan's complete lack of trust is insulting. Tali has more personal reasons to hate Cerberus than Ashley does, yet she is willing to trust Shepard and believe in him/her.

I agree with you completely.  I loathe cerberus and I loathe being railroaded into working with them.

[Nozybidaj]

Pissed at the ME1 LI's? No, not at all.



Pissed at the writers and the general direction ME2 went with the story and the LI's? Yes very much so.

[Brako Shepard]

I'm not angry by any means.



The only thing that confused me, was that Liara was my romance choice in Mass Effect. In Mass Effect 2 its only 2 years later, Shepard is back from the dead, and all he gets is 'Sorry I have things to do'.



Whilst it must have been hard as hell to write in all the possible out-comes for Mass Effect 2 switch over. It still felt a tad weak for what I was expecting after seeing Liara after only 2 years.



I'm lucky in life though. I am married to an amazing woman, so Liara can sod right off.



Seriously though. It felt weak, but it was no major deal. It in no way ruined any of the amazing story or gameplay of Mass Effect 2.

[RyrineaNara]

I am not pissed off at them. However, I do think the writers that took this kind of direction is kind dumb thought I can understand why they did this thought............. They did it to make it feel more darker to cut you off from your friends to have you be forced to work for Cerberus.

[Beholderess]

yfhfrg wrote...

I haven't read everything, but a couple of thoughts: Ash/Kaidan jumping on the Normandy after Horizon isn't a small thing to do, it's desertion, even if shep is still a spectre. Also, they don't really know that that is shep. They could actually just be a different person altogether, whether because cerberus brought him back with a control chip in his head among other modifications (which we know miri wanted to do), or because he's the result of some sort of cerberus cloning project or who knows. These sound far fetched but evil science projects is pretty much the only thing cerberus seems to do.

Good points, but I am not angry at all about the fact that Ash/Kaidan won't join the squad. This is more than understandable - one does not simply walks away from the military and joins the crew of a random (and technically civillian) vessel.
I am angry at them for their unwillingness to put at least some faith in the person who they once were willing to follow to the hell and back. They immediately assume the worst about Shepard, which implies that they didn't have much respect for him/her to begin with. Really, if my best friend, or just someone who I know well and respect, would turn out to have some ties with a shady organisation, the FIRST thing I am going to assume is that s/he had an understandable reasons for that, and that such ties are not going to be permanent. Of cource, I'd keep an open ears for other explanation, but my first assumption is going to be in friend's favour.
I expected at least that much from them. Not to join Shepard, sure. But not caling him a traitor without investigating the circumstances either.

[Yeled]

I'm not angry at them. I blame the writers who took the lazy way out rather than create meaningful interactions with the ME1 LIs. They needed an excuse to keep the LIs off the Normandy and they contrived a way to do that, even if it made no sense, damaged the relationship, went against character, and hurt the experiences of those people who were waiting to interact with their favorite characters again.



Someone said the way they handled the ME1 LIs was disappointing but didn't hurt an otherwise terrific story. I disagree. I would also suggest the story wasn't really very terrific at all, and paled in comparison to BioWare's previous efforts such as KotoR (one of the best twists in any story of all time), Jade Empire (terrific, convoluted plot that was all about misdirection), and yes, ME1 (in which the galaxy was a character unto itself...and which only received a cameo in ME2).

[bandfred]

Ashley and Kaiden were completely reasonable. I could never be mad at Ash.

I never liked Liara anyway.

[Jax Sparrow]

yfhfrg wrote...

I haven't read everything, but a couple of thoughts: Ash/Kaidan jumping on the Normandy after Horizon isn't a small thing to do, it's desertion, even if shep is still a spectre. Also, they don't really know that that is shep. They could actually just be a different person altogether, whether because cerberus brought him back with a control chip in his head among other modifications (which we know miri wanted to do), or because he's the result of some sort of cerberus cloning project or who knows. These sound far fetched but evil science projects is pretty much the only thing cerberus seems to do.

Yes, jumping onto the Normandy after Horizon is a big deal... could be seen as going AWOL and/or desertion... and yet Ashley/Kaidan are the ones saying they would have gone through Hell for Shepard.  They are the ones who call him a traitor without caring enough to actually pay attention and listen to what Shepard says.  My Shepard hopes that Anderson leans back over the line he crossed on Horizon after my Shepard shows Udina what really happens to people who stab him in the back.  However, he expects such a thing from Anderson now that he is a politician... we had hoped he could rise above that but *shrugs* cest la vie  Now Ashley/Kaidan?  Shepard expected much more than for Ashley/Kaidan to forget all about loyalty and honor.

As for Liara, I {Shepard} was upset with her decision but I respected it... mostly because I accepted it as a flimsy excuse the writers needed to keep her away from the Omega 4 Relay.  Ashley/Kaidan's excuse is far beyond "flimsy" they proved they are disloyal and lack honor.  An extranet message just adds insult to injury by pouring salt on the wound.

Modifié par Jax Sparrow, 20 avril 2010 - 07:54 .

[jlb524]

I think both Ash/Kaidan and Liara's excuses were just pathetic and flimsy reasons to keep them out of Shepard's party. Contrived B.S., the same as the whole 'Shepard dies and Cerberus rebuilds her/him and now must work for Cerberus'. ME2 is full of contrived and B.S. story elements added to give them reason to reset the game and start Shepard over in a new game engine.



I don't blame the characters as I hope BW will give them the attention they deserve in ME3 and I'm sure most will like them all over again.

[Vicious]

Ash and Kaiden can go to hell. Garrus is more awesome than both.



As with Liara, well. she went through a lot.

[Ulathar]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Pissed at the ME1 LI's? No, not at all.

Pissed at the writers and the general direction ME2 went with the story and the LI's? Yes very much so.

^this

[jlb524]

Beholderess wrote...

However, Ask/Kaidan's complete lack of trust is insulting. Tali has more personal reasons to hate Cerberus than Ashley does, yet she is willing to trust Shepard and believe in him/her.

Why should they trust Shepard?  She/he is working for a known terrorist organization.  Besides, they say they trust Shepard but they do not trust Cerberus. 

What if your lover/friend game back from the dead after 2 years and joined up with the taliban?  How would you react to them?

Plus, people are forgetting that a romanced Ashley and Kaidan send you an email apologizing for their initial reaction and giving the two of you some hope for the future.  Their initial reaction was born out of shock.  They went home, thought about it the situation and the meeting, and then sent you an email.  I found this completely reasonable. 

[Annihilator27]

I am not pissed off at liara. Kaiden however........

[Privateerkev]

I try to look at my Shep's relationships like I look at my own. For me, it is all about communication and maintainence. In ME2, whether your maleShep is with Ash or Liara, there is neither communication or maintainence.

Shep and Liara/Ash go through this massive adventure together in ME1. They share an intimate moment before Ilos. They trust each other as squadmates and lovers. Fight side-by-side against the "big evil." And what happens in ME2? Ash throws a temper tantrum in front of your squadmates and Liara treats you more like a minor inconvenience. Oh they send an email like that is supposed to fix everything. But where is the trust? The one-on-one conversation letting you try to explain things? Even a FTL conversation would have been better. Nah, they just cut you lose and then hope you'll still give them a shot even though they have emotionally and physically abandoned you while you go off and do what can be considered the most important act of your life to that point.

So, there seems to be no communication in the relationship. And no attempt at maintainence beyond one simple one-shot-fix-all email. So, it was quite easy for me to move my Shep on to other possibilities. Which, is what I suspect BW wanted. To cut ties to past characters so you can become more invested in this new group that is supposed to be your companions on a suicide mission.

So, I wasn't angry at the ME1 LI's but I did write them off. Their behavior put me off and made it easier to connect to the three other oppurtunities that were presented. That being said, I hope those who are still fans of the ME1 LI's get some payoff in ME3. Just like I hope those of us who are fans of the ME2 LI's get payoff as well.

In my opinion the strength of the game is that it lets you guide your Shep to be what you want him/her to be. The above are just my reasons for why I guide my Shep a certain way. If others are still connected and emotionally invested in the ME1 LI's, then I hope they get an awesome ending and/or story in the next game. But for me personally, I never really liked the ME1 LI's much anyways. Their behavior in ME2 just solidified it.

[Nozybidaj]

Privateerkev wrote...



In my opinion the strength of the game is that it lets you guide your Shep to be what you want him/her to be.

The game only allows that if you buy into the railroad job the game gives to you. A reasonable Shepard would have told Cerberus to stuff it and thanks for the new ship, airlocked Miranda/Jacob, went and grabbed Liara, Ash/Kaidan, Tali, and Garrus and went and saved the galaxy his own way.



Instead the only Shep you are allowed to play is this completely unemotional robotic doll that TIM leads around by the nose and never thinks for himself.



The Shep we got in ME2 certainly is not the Shep I wanted him/her to be and certainly not the Shep we played in ME1.

[Privateerkev]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Privateerkev wrote...

In my opinion the strength of the game is that it lets you guide your Shep to be what you want him/her to be.

The game only allows that if you buy into the railroad job the game gives to you. A reasonable Shepard would have told Cerberus to stuff it and thanks for the new ship, airlocked Miranda/Jacob, went and grabbed Liara, Ash/Kaidan, Tali, and Garrus and went and saved the galaxy his own way.

Instead the only Shep you are allowed to play is this completely unemotional robotic doll that TIM leads around by the nose and never thinks for himself.

The Shep we got in ME2 certainly is not the Shep I wanted him/her to be and certainly not the Shep we played in ME1.

Well BW balances that by still trying to tell the story they want to tell. They still give you a lot more options than I have seen in other games. Maybe I've just played the wrong games. More of a FPS fan myself. There are only so many ways to play Call of Duty... lol

[Yeled]

Privateerkev wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Privateerkev wrote...

In my opinion the strength of the game is that it lets you guide your Shep to be what you want him/her to be.

The game only allows that if you buy into the railroad job the game gives to you. A reasonable Shepard would have told Cerberus to stuff it and thanks for the new ship, airlocked Miranda/Jacob, went and grabbed Liara, Ash/Kaidan, Tali, and Garrus and went and saved the galaxy his own way.

Instead the only Shep you are allowed to play is this completely unemotional robotic doll that TIM leads around by the nose and never thinks for himself.

The Shep we got in ME2 certainly is not the Shep I wanted him/her to be and certainly not the Shep we played in ME1.

Well BW balances that by still trying to tell the story they want to tell. They still give you a lot more options than I have seen in other games. Maybe I've just played the wrong games. More of a FPS fan myself. There are only so many ways to play Call of Duty... lol

See, that's the problem.  A lot of us think ME2 was aimed at you, a fan of FPS games.  Not that there is anything wrong with FPS games (I like some of them just fine).  But that's not what BioWare does, traditionally.  And I don't feel they gave us a lot of choice at all.  If they want us to behave a certain way, that's fine, but then give us a good reason that makes sense. 

You mentioned that you felt there was no communication or maintanence of the previous ME1 relationships in ME2.  I agree.  But that's not the LI's fault.  Its BioWare's terrible writing.  Shep doesn't communicate any more than the LIs communicate.  She sits there like a moron, says "See ya later, Liara," and goes off on a suicide mission from which no one expects her to return.  Doesn't that strike you as...odd?  And Liara, who went through hell to recover your body because she couldn't let you go...just leaves it at that?

No, they railroaded us by limiting our choices without providing good reasons so that we would behave exactly as you did.  *grumbles*

[Funkcase]

Ash/Kaidan did NOT turn on Shepard, people should speak to Anderson after Horizon he says something like Ash/Kaidan confirmed Shepards story to the council and that it was indeed the Collectors but the council did'nt think there was enough evidence to confirm Reaper involvement. Ash/Kaidan where helping Shepard, they where just annoyed on Horizon for 1 Shepard didnt contact them, and 2 Cerberus.

[Jax Sparrow]

Funkcase wrote...

Ash/Kaidan did NOT turn on Shepard, people should speak to Anderson after Horizon he says something like Ash/Kaidan confirmed Shepards story to the council and that it was indeed the Collectors but the council did'nt think there was enough evidence to confirm Reaper involvement. Ash/Kaidan where helping Shepard, they where just annoyed on Horizon for 1 Shepard didnt contact them, and 2 Cerberus.

That just proves they did not invent crap to support their insulting hypothesis.  that makes them marginally better than Udina to me;  and Udina is dead to me...  As if Shepard would let anyone control him even IF Miri had put a control chip in his brain.

[Dean_the_Young]

Frankly, I'm rather amused by the people who insist that a willingness to follow Shepard into hell must translate into joining Cerberus.



Really, just think about what the metaphor means. It's an acknowledgment of of the virtue of the leader: Hell is an opposing force of ultimate, overpowering evil that will crush and twist the souls who dare stand against it, and yet they have such faith in the leader that his virtue, strength of will, and just cause will stand again the darkness even when they themselves might falter. A willingness to follow into hell itself is a willingness to risk one's very being in trust of another's strength of virtue in opposing evil.



It is NOT a willingness to join the heirarchy of Hell and practice evil, which is what joining Cerberus is akin to. They were willing to follow you into Hell to oppose such evils, not be an accomplice in them.



Your team mate feels betrayed because you've more or less joined exactly what you fought so much again previously. Yes, they were willing to follow you into Hell, to fight the good fight. But now you've struck a pact with demons. You aren't the person they followed.

[Privateerkev]

Yeled wrote...

See, that's the problem.  A lot of us think ME2 was aimed at you, a fan of FPS games.  Not that there is anything wrong with FPS games (I like some of them just fine).  But that's not what BioWare does, traditionally.  And I don't feel they gave us a lot of choice at all.  If they want us to behave a certain way, that's fine, but then give us a good reason that makes sense. 

You mentioned that you felt there was no communication or maintanence of the previous ME1 relationships in ME2.  I agree.  But that's not the LI's fault.  Its BioWare's terrible writing.  Shep doesn't communicate any more than the LIs communicate.  She sits there like a moron, says "See ya later, Liara," and goes off on a suicide mission from which no one expects her to return.  Doesn't that strike you as...odd?  And Liara, who went through hell to recover your body because she couldn't let you go...just leaves it at that?

No, they railroaded us by limiting our choices without providing good reasons so that we would behave exactly as you did.  *grumbles*

Well, you can't really seperate the writers from the characters. I wasn't mad at the writers for how they wrote their characters. I just didn't connect to the other characters. The writers try to write characters that appeal to a wide variety of people. Some will connect to you. Some won't. I was just saying why those particular characters didn't connect to me. But they connect to other players. Which is fine. Different strokes for different folks...

As for aiming the game at my crowd, maybe they did. That's fine with me. It widens the fanbase and increases sales. Which is good for you as well. As long as they keep providing a product the hardcorp rp players like as well. This is how a franchise grows and becomes successful.

As for Liara, I didn't know about the body part because I didn't explore that part of dialouge. I don't like the character and the Shep I played up to that point didn't pick her as a love interest in ME1. So, neither me nor Shep even knew that.