75 réponses à ce sujet

[krasnoarmeets]

Has anyone ever turned Loghain into a Grey Warden and
then done the Return to Ostagar DLC? It would be interesting to see his
reaction to the return and finding Cailan's corpse.

[sylvanaerie]

i've only seen it on UTube.  He dies every time I play even if I start off saying I will spare him this time.

[Sarah1281]

Maybe it was just that he assumed (like many gamers) that the Empress' friendly letter to Cailan being in the same box as the letter Eamon sent advising him to ditch Anora (which you can bet made Loghain feel even more justified for poisoning him) meant that he was not only abandoning Anora but planning on marrying Celene and surrender Ferelden sovereignty but he got pissed when I decided to light a pyre for Cailan. The dialogue options make it sound like it's just because he's of royal blood but I just did that because it was common decency. Loghain didn't like the idea of leaving him as a trophy but he did want to feed him to the wolves.



And Wynne, of course, was awful. Her condemning Loghain for Ostagar was so annoying I actually started to see Loghain's POV.

[krasnoarmeets]

I just watched to youtube vid. Opinion of the deserter and Loghain are that Ostagar was an unwinnable battle. Not necessarily true, however.

Sarah1281's theory does seem likely - Loghain putting two and two together and making five.

Anora sending the Warden Loghain to Orlais in Awakening would be a good idea. He's paranoid and obsessed and like Alistair said he thinks he's the only one who can fix things. Some time surrounded by Orlesians might do him some good.

I kill him most of the time, because he's unable to see any point of view other than his own.

[sylvanaerie]

Yea Wynne is just awful in Ostagar period. Last time I ran through I took Leli, Alistair and Dog. I got some weird disapprovals from some of my group members over Cailan's pyre.



Dog's howl when youi take down Cailan's body was the most touching thing about it for me. I Rped it as my PC was putting to rest not just Cailan but that part of her life and her family (HNF) at the same time. (To explain the sadface over a man she barely knew).

[krasnoarmeets]

Noble female and it was her King, however. Historically, when Monarchs are laid to rest people often mourn a person they barely knew. I suppose they're implying that he was a popular figure.

[zchen]

He goes ballistic after finding Cailan did manage to make a deal with the Orlesians without his knowledge. He automatically assumes Cailan will dump Anora and marry Celene. Just further demonstrate any time Orlesians gets mentioned it clouds his judgment.

[yellowpride]

The first time I did return to Ostagar, it was with Loghain.  It was mainly because I wanted to try sparing Loghain in at least one playthrough and that DLC came out around the time I was finishing up that playthrough.  I actually think his conversations with Wynne are better than Allistair's.  When I finally got around to running through it with Allistair and Wynne, I kinda just wanted to smack them. 

[Kodiak_Ronin]

my opinion that just further supports the idea that Loghain needed to die at the end of DA. To be so set in the idea that your law is the only way..that your ideal is the only way...just makes you want to wipe the floor with the guy.

[krasnoarmeets]

Agreed. Alistair had it right: 'the problem with them is they think they're the only one who can fix things and so everyone else should just get out of their way.'

I guess that was Loghain's way of getting Cailan out of his way, so he could do things the way he saw fit.

[Tinnic]

Loghain is opposed to leaving Cailan strung up for Darkspawn amusement but is also against giving him a proper pyre. Loghain favoured leaving Cailan's body to the wolves... I found this a little weird and extreme.



As the poster above mentioned, Loghain goes nuts over the letters you find in Cailan's chest. Is chiefly concerned with Maric's sword when you meet Cailan's confident to get the return to Ostagar quest.



But he and Wynn provide a running commentary if you have them both in the party as you go through Ostagar. You generally get the impression that, 1) Loghain really hated Cailan, 2) Loghain is really happy that Cailan is dead, and 3) Whatever remorse Loghain feels about the entire thing is restricted to the men he had to sacrifice.

[krasnoarmeets]

I gotta play through this myself.

[Costin_Razvan]

3) Whatever remorse Loghain feels about the entire thing is restricted to the men he had to sacrifice.



Why should he feel remorse for abandoning that idiot Cailan to die, after telling him it was too dangerous to fight the darkspawn?

Loghain favoured leaving Cailan's body to the wolves... I found this a little weird and extrem

To give Cailan a pyre means you respected the man. I certainly don't respect a idiot who can't even realize he is playing with the lives of hundreds/thousands of soldiers, and doesn't care he might lose a great deal of them.



Extreme is leaving him for the darkspawn.

[zchen]

Lol.....You mean the same battle plan Loghain came up with? that he himself sabotaged? A plan that had a great chance of working  by the way since the Archdemon in the underground and was months away so the darkspawn would not have had endless numbers to the surface for that battle.

You would place the blame on Cailan? a king whose authority was undermined by Loghain and his daughter at every turn? one who was smart enough to put aside the differences in the past and negotiate an alliance with Orle? (tell me this, if Cailan was such a glory seeking person, why would he do this? clearly he had a better idea of the darkspawn threat than Loghain)

Loghain is the one that couldn't see past his hatred of Orleis and betrayed his king and men at Ostagar.

Modifié par zchen, 17 avril 2010 - 05:55 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I would place my blame on a idiot king who was determined to fight a battle which BOTH Duncan and Loghain did not think would go well. A king who was considered foolish by Alistair and Duncan.

Perhaps you should listen to the dialog more carefully at the start of the game.

PC: He would, if he were not such a fool.
Duncan: Do not speak of the king such, he is.....overeager perhaps. Nevertheless we must look to Teryn Loghain to make the difference.

Alistair: Don't expect the king to win the battle.

Loghain: Pray that our king is malleable to wisdom, if your the praying sort.
PC: And if he isn't?
Loghain: Then simply pray.

I don't know what kind of ( retarded ) thinking you are playing at. But when your general, who has won against almost impossible odds in the past ( think of Loghain as you will, but he did win great victories ), suggest the battle is too dangerous then you should bloody ****ing listen.

When the Grey Warden Commander expresses concern over the coming battle you do NOT ignore his advice.

As for the whole Orlais aid thing. Might I ask why is Cailan so eager to get aid from Orlais, BUT NOT gather his full army. We hear Duncan at the start reminding Cailan that Redcliff soldiers are only a week away, and yet Cailan doesn't care.

So if he was eager to get a large fighting force, then why pray didn't he gather one from his OWN country? Inviting Orlesian forces had NOTHING to do with fighting the Blight, as Cailan did not deem a great threat enough, hell he doesn't even believe it is an actual Blight.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 17 avril 2010 - 06:28 .

[zchen]

Again, who came up with the battle plan and sabotaged it? Loghain.

Also, you missed the line where Duncan said "The plan will work, your majesty."

They won a few battles already at Ostagar already, if not for Loghain's trecherorus abandonment, they would've held at Ostagar, had Orlesian reinforcements. A much better position than civil war.

Modifié par zchen, 17 avril 2010 - 06:47 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Again, who insisted on fighting despite advice to the contrary? Cailan.

[Caldarin V]

gotta side with Razvan on this... Cailan knew it was a tactically unsound battle, but led his men into it anyways

[zchen]

Again, who came up with the battle plan and sabotaged it? Loghain.

Cailan was doing a perfectly good job follow Loghain's plans.

If you don't make a stand at Ostagar, you are exposing Ferelden to the darkspawn, so truly how many choices did Cailan have? Unlike Logahin, who seemed perfectly willing to leave the people to darkspawn, Cailan took the fight to the frontlines.

Modifié par zchen, 17 avril 2010 - 06:50 .

[Tinnic]

And another post denegrades into a Loghain vs Cailan brawl. Well I am going to go enjoy my ice cream (Basket Robbin's for the win!) now. All I will say is that I recently took just Alistair back to Ostagar (previously I took Alistair + Wynn and Loghain + Wynn) and I go to say, it was pretty clear that Alistair was fairly upset over what happened to Cailan. Can't really tell if it was a loyal subject thing or if brotherly love factored into it, but the Alistair was upset. I imagine my PC warden in this case was probably a little confused because Alistair hasn't had the "Please don't love me any less or more but I am the bastard son of Maric!" conversation with her yet.

Modifié par Tinnic, 17 avril 2010 - 06:52 .

[Caldarin V]

Loghain didn't sabotage it; you lit the beacon late. The darkspawn tunneled up through the floor and took the tower; he had no way to predict that.



Actually, if you really wanna blame somebody, blame the chantry.. if they'd just let the mage signal Loghain, everything would have been fine

[Nooneyouknow13]

zchen wrote...

Again, who came up with the battle plan and sabotaged it? Loghain.

Also, you missed the line where Duncan said "The plan will work, your majesty."

They won a few battles already at Ostagar already, if not for Loghain's trecherorus abandonment, they would've held at Ostagar, had Orlesian reinforcements. A much better position than civil war.

Loghain sabatoged nothing. Allistair himself points out when you kill the ogre in the Tower of Ishal that you're already late, and it was a very tightly knit battle plan. If you want to blame someone for sabotaging that battle, blem the Revered Mother who blocked Uldred's plan of using the mages to send the signal instead of using the tower. Hell, blame the Chantry in general, as they would only let 7 mages leave the tower to go to Ostagar at the kings request.

Also, it's not Orlesian Chevaliers Cailan wanted to wait for, it was specificaly Orelsian Wardens he wanted to wait for.

[Tinnic]

Caldarin V wrote...

Loghain didn't sabotage it; you lit the beacon late. The darkspawn tunneled up through the floor and took the tower; he had no way to predict that.

Actually, if you really wanna blame somebody, blame the chantry.. if they'd just let the mage signal Loghain, everything would have been fine

That wouldn't have worked either because the mage who wanted to light the beacon also wanted the battle to go badly and also pulled out early with his faction so he could stage a coup in the tower.

[Aisynia]

Talk to the dying guy who starts the RtO quest, he says that even Cailan knew there would be no victory at Ostagar. Cailan started a battle in the name of glory that he knew he would likely not win.



Loghain was a wretched fool for what he did, but I don't really blame him for it either. Cailan was such a complete idiot.



Bad timing all around though.

[Caldarin V]

Tinnic wrote...

Caldarin V wrote...

Loghain didn't sabotage it; you lit the beacon late. The darkspawn tunneled up through the floor and took the tower; he had no way to predict that.

Actually, if you really wanna blame somebody, blame the chantry.. if they'd just let the mage signal Loghain, everything would have been fine

That wouldn't have worked either because the mage who wanted to light the beacon also wanted the battle to go badly and also pulled out early with his faction so he could stage a coup in the tower.

wait, ****, was that Uldred? wow... never noticed
touche