75 réponses à ce sujet

[Nooneyouknow13]

Caldarin V wrote...

Tinnic wrote...

Caldarin V wrote...

Loghain didn't sabotage it; you lit the beacon late. The darkspawn tunneled up through the floor and took the tower; he had no way to predict that.

Actually, if you really wanna blame somebody, blame the chantry.. if they'd just let the mage signal Loghain, everything would have been fine

That wouldn't have worked either because the mage who wanted to light the beacon also wanted the battle to go badly and also pulled out early with his faction so he could stage a coup in the tower.

wait, ****, was that Uldred? wow... never noticed
touche

Aye, it was Uldred.  That said, it's still the Chantry's fault, because there should have been far more than 7 mages there.

[Zalbaar]

Loghain did not want the King to die in that battle. Loghain, Arl Eamon, and Duncan all wanted the King to not be on the front lines. Each one tried very hard to make him not be there. But he was too busy trying to have a battle with the warden's like in the old days that he did not listen.



Loghain states before the battle begins that they can not win this battle with the army they have now. The King tells him they can wait for orlais Loghain gets pissy and says we do not need to put our future in there hands so the King says the forces they have will have to do.



I think if anything Loghain wanted the warden's out of the way not the King.

[Aisynia]

Loghain was ignorant of the necessity for a Warden to kill the Archdemon.. hell, some Wardens were.



Some of the secrecy on the Warden's part is.. well, stupid to the point of harming themselves.



Also inconsistent. Love how the Joining is a big secret, and then Anora knows it's often fatal, stating such in front of the entire Landsmeet.

[Tinnic]

Aisynia wrote...

Loghain was ignorant of the necessity for a Warden to kill the Archdemon.. hell, some Wardens were.

Some of the secrecy on the Warden's part is.. well, stupid to the point of harming themselves.

Also inconsistent. Love how the Joining is a big secret, and then Anora knows it's often fatal, stating such in front of the entire Landsmeet.

Not to mention how the Seneschal of Vigil's Keep a non-grey Warden is able to administer the joining in Awakening... but that's another thread. 

[Lintanis]

Think I remember hearing or reading in the game that Loghain told Uldred he would free the mages from Chantry control if he supported him.

[Costin_Razvan]

Also inconsistent. Love how the Joining is a big secret, and then Anora knows it's often fatal, stating such in front of the entire Landsmeet.

Anora doesn't know why, she only knows that people who partake in the joining might die. Seeing Cailan's fascination with the wardens it is no wonder she knew of such things.

[asaiasai]

Nooneyouknow13 wrote...

zchen wrote...

Again, who came up with the battle plan and sabotaged it? Loghain.

Also, you missed the line where Duncan said "The plan will work, your majesty."

They won a few battles already at Ostagar already, if not for Loghain's trecherorus abandonment, they would've held at Ostagar, had Orlesian reinforcements. A much better position than civil war.

Loghain sabatoged nothing. Allistair himself points out when you kill the ogre in the Tower of Ishal that you're already late, and it was a very tightly knit battle plan. If you want to blame someone for sabotaging that battle, blem the Revered Mother who blocked Uldred's plan of using the mages to send the signal instead of using the tower. Hell, blame the Chantry in general, as they would only let 7 mages leave the tower to go to Ostagar at the kings request.

Also, it's not Orlesian Chevaliers Cailan wanted to wait for, it was specificaly Orelsian Wardens he wanted to wait for.

You make a good point there my take on the whole thing is the Chantry will not let the mages unleash thier true power so they will never be able to be as devistating as they could be. I know what my mage is able to do with out a muzzle, unbridled death to all who oppose me, i think more mages, able to have released thier true potential on the DS, may not have won the day but it would have gone better. Some of my mages are like artillery pieces, performing area denial, march through a tempest stacked on a blizzard, and what is left is not really worth mentioning. The Chantry is scared to allow even its most trusted senior mages out of the box, but for what it is worth the leaders of any battle have to present to thier men confidence even if it is false. If the King expresses doubts in front of his army the men are more likely to break and sooner that those who are bouyed by the king's bravado, even if it is false.
 
Asai

[Caldarin V]

dude, the mages would have turned the tide had there been more of them.. think about it in game terms: Get 16, have them constantly cast fireballs in a line. The knockdown would take out everything but the ogres before they got through, and the archers could take care of the rest...

silly chantry

[Costin_Razvan]

Screw 16



Gather the entire circle, and demolish the Darkspawn Horde. hell, what you save from the Circle Tower makes a hell of a difference at Denerim.



Asai: That's a good point, a general must always appear confident in front of his troops. Doesn't excuse he fact he refused to listen to Duncan and Loghain.

[Meliorist13]

I blame both Cailan and Loghain for the debacle at Ostagar.

But I still think that Loghain knew the Ostagar tower had a

weakness and delilberately failed to put enough defenders there.

It is common knowlege that the darkspawn like to tunnel and often come

up from the ground.



Remember the look of disgust on Loghain's face when the beacon was lit?

Late or not. I believe he never expected it to be lit in the first place.

[RazorrX]

David Gaider even hinted that Loghain had plans in motion to NOT have the tower lit (if it would have served him not to, as it was an option he kept open). He further said that Uldred had the same plan. (IE not let it be lit in time).



Loghain refused to admit it was a blight for many reasons (witch of wilds, etc.) so his thinking was it was just a big darkspawn incursion and could be handled by the military. The battle plan that Calain died in was Loghains plan, but Loghain did NOT want Calain to fight on the front lines. Loghain wanted the Grey Wardens on the front lines, so they would all die when he did not come to their rescue as the tower was not lit.



The plan was to put a token force to 'pull' the darkspawn into the gap, there they would be hit by the bulk of the forces (Loghain) and crushed. Intel was coming in that it was a much larger force than they had thought and Loghain had an out if it was too much - leave the forces at Ostagar to die and fight somewhere else.



Calain insisted on fighting alongside the wardens, and thus sealed his fate.



The end result was the forces at Ostagar was ALWAYS intended to be sacrificed if needed. Loghain just decided to let Calain die when he saw the pyre lit and withdrew (which was always an option for him).



Note Loghain did not have a view of the battle - or he would not have needed the pyre. He was hidden from view.



Also note that Allistair does not KNOW you were late, he says something like you MAY be too late. There is no real time frame for how long it took you to cut through the forces and light it. It could be that you were just a few min late, on time or several min late. No one knows. No one living anyway.

[RazorrX]

Meliorist13 wrote..
Remember the look of disgust on Loghain's face when the beacon was lit?
Late or not. I believe he never expected it to be lit in the first place.

I think that was probably more because he knew that at least 2 grey wardens (or in Loghains terms: Dirty stinking Orlesian spies) were alive.

[krasnoarmeets]

No, actually, Loghain appears to have a direct view of the battlefield: all those winking lights in the background when he signals the retreat seem to be the darkspawn horde. That's why I don't understand the necessity for the Tower of Ishal. Should just used the mages, anyway, as Uldred suggested. To hell with the grand cleric. What the hell is a bloody priest doing at a strategy meeting anyway? It's not like the templars were taking part in the battle...

Rather than a look of disgust, perhaps incredulity on Loghain's face? I got the impression he expected it not to be lit. He appeared to be against having the two Wardens sent to light the beacon.

Modifié par krasnoarmeets, 17 avril 2010 - 08:27 .

[RazorrX]

That is his army, notice when he signals the retreat they all start moving along with his guys? It is because it is his army. I wondered where people got the impression he was looking at the battle. In order for his plan to work his army had to be hidden from the darkspawn, so that they could ambush them. That is why the tower was so vital, as it was the only visible signal they would see. IF he could see the battle he would not have needed the tower. In the opening of the scene you can see him looking across a ridgeline and all he can see is the top of the tower.

[sylvanaerie]

That scene always upsets me. I see Duncan looking up to see the tower is lit (and probably also worried for Alistair) and in those last moments you can see it on his face that he KNOWS Loghain didn't respond to the signal. Time being subjective he wouldn't know if it was lit on time or not. All he knows is the plan failed massively and there was no Loghain and his troops there.

[Costin_Razvan]

Loghain refused to admit it was a blight for many reasons (witch of wilds, etc.

I do not think he refused to believe it was a blight based on that prophecy. I think he just thought like most people: What proof is there?

The word of a few Grey Wardens who won't even tell people why they know it's a blight?

so his thinking was it was just a big darkspawn incursion and could be handled by the military

Blights are usually handled by military might alone. The only major thing a Grey Warden does is to kill the archdemon. ( besides being a strong fighter )

Loghain wanted the Grey Wardens on the front lines, so they would all die when he did not come to their rescue as the tower was not lit.

I don't think he wanted to kill the wardens. I don't even think he wanted to fight that battle in the first place. Yes he drew the battle plan, but so did the **** Generals at the end of WW2 when they knew there was no hope. Why? Orders.

That said he did believe he might win, even at a costly price ( why he wanted Cailan to not fight ) but then the Darkspawn Horde comes and as David Gaider puts it: It was far larger then anyone expected.

He could not see the battlefield, but he certainly had scouts who had informed him of the enemy numbers.

P.S. Duncan's last expression is directed at the darkspawn who is about to decapitate him.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 18 avril 2010 - 01:56 .

[GavrielKay]

How would Loghain know that the beacon was lit late? If he had scouts watching the battle, then they could either have told him when the optimum time to attack was, or at the very least tell him that the signal had been sent but the beacon failed to light. It doesn't make sense to me to say he knew it was late and that was why he left. If he knew when "late" was then he would have known when "on-time" was and could have attacked anyway. The beacon plan was just an excuse to keep a major portion of the troops out of harms way.



I think Loghain didn't agree with how the whole Darkspawn uprising was being handled. He needed a major defeat to quench the King's idealism in order to get leverage to put his own plans into action. He didn't want Cailan to die in the battle, but he needed the battle lost and Cailan insisted on fighting in it so became collateral damage.



I think he planned to leave the field at Ostagar all along.

[Xandurpein]

I guess the bottom line is that we still don't know for sure. Even if David Gaider have given us some additional information there simply no final proof one way or the other. The best thing, I think, is to try and keep an open mind about it.

[RazorrX]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Loghain refused to admit it was a blight for many reasons (witch of wilds, etc.

I do not think he refused to believe it was a blight based on that prophecy. I think he just thought like most people: What proof is there?

The word of a few Grey Wardens who won't even tell people why they know it's a blight?

Ummm because David G even agreed with me about it, and you can further see it happening in The Calling?  I do not have the link (think it was on old forums) but basically it works out like this:

Loghain was there when the witch told Maric that *if* he kept Loghain around "He will betray you, each time worse than the last."  THEN she told Maric that a Blight WAS coming soon, but that he (Maric) would not live to see it.  Now to Loghain *if* the second prediction was true, then so was the first and he is a betrayer.  Since Loghain can NEVER be a betrayer (in his mind) the Blight can NEVER happen either.  Ever.  IF there is a blight, then she was correct and Loghain betrayed Maric.   Thus at the end of The Calling he tells Maric - "There will not be a Blight." and Maric even knows WHY he said it.<--- This very reasoning has been agreed upon by David by the way.

Thus To Loghain there is no true blight.  Period.  The Wardens who are telling Calain that it is a blight are just manipulating him to get Orlais into ferelden, as Loghain sees the wardens as evil Orlesian spies.

so his thinking was it was just a big darkspawn incursion and could be handled by the military

Blights are usually handled by military might alone. The only major thing a Grey Warden does is to kill the archdemon. ( besides being a strong fighter )

Historically, there has not been a SINGLE blight that was defeated by military might alone.  It has ALWAYS taken a grey warden to end the blight.  Hence the reason everywhere BUT ferelden the wardens are looked upon as great heroes.  Loghain wanted the Wardens gone because he was not worried about that, what bothered him was these Orlesian liars were manipuating the king.  Loghain remembers the fact that the Wardens were run out of Ferelden because they tried to overthrow the ruler, he sees it happening again.

Loghain wanted the Grey Wardens on the front lines, so they would all die when he did not come to their rescue as the tower was not lit.

I don't think he wanted to kill the wardens. I don't even think he wanted to fight that battle in the first place. Yes he drew the battle plan, but so did the **** Generals at the end of WW2 when they knew there was no hope. Why? Orders.

That said he did believe he might win, even at a costly price ( why he wanted Cailan to not fight ) but then the Darkspawn Horde comes and as David Gaider puts it: It was far larger then anyone expected.

He could not see the battlefield, but he certainly had scouts who had informed him of the enemy numbers.

P.S. Duncan's last expression is directed at the darkspawn who is about to decapitate him.

But he DID want the wardens dead.  It is shown as to how he hires assassains to hunt you the remaining wardens down.  He spreads lies and such about you to everyone to make sure you have no safe harbor, he harries you as much as he is able trying to drive you from ferelden or kill you.  The ONLY thing we know for sure is Loghain wanted the Wardens either dead or gone.

He drew the battle plan up for several reasons. 

1. was to have a solid fighting stratagy that would work against a larger force (but not one the size of the hoard that showed up).

2. to Placate Calain so that he would not insist on the Orlesian wardens (ie dirty spies) and the Lancers.   Thus the arguement between Calain and Loghain at the war council.

3. Loghain ALWAYS has an 'out' in his plans so that if things go bad, he can get out and recover to fight again.  The 'out' was that the ground forces/front line *could* be sacrificed and he could take the bulk of the army (all those torches behind him) and fight the hoard on more favorable terms.  Which makes for sound stratagy.

4.  By putting the Wardens in the front line he ensures that most if not all will perish, thus freeing Calain of thier bad influence.

5. he did not want calain to fight WITH the wardens.  He wanted the wardens to die, show Calain how they were not supermen, etc and then finish off the darkspawn later, once he had more control (away from those wardens) over Calain.

But the key is that to Loghain there was no blight, there never could be a blight, etc.  it is only near the end that he realizes just how wrong he has been, but it is too late by then.

[BHRamsay]

It's always interesting to hear the Calian-was-a-fool opinion without the accompanying truth that Loghain and Anora make constant and gleeful remarks to the effect that they were effectively running the kingdom.

Calian deserved better then a Father-in-law who had no problem humiliating him in front of his troops and a wife who complains about Calain's lack of ability to rule but let's her father turn the country into a warzone.

Calian was tired of being treated like an idiot and he wanted to prove he was capable of doing the job of being king and ruling his people

Considering how often people the PC speaks with practically genuflect when the topic of Loghain's war record comes up, is it any wonder Calian would see defeating a blight as maybe the only way he was going to finally get some respect from his Queen and his General.

[Sarah1281]

How would Loghain know that the beacon was lit late?

Maybe Loghain had a general idea of how long it would be until the Beacon is lit. When you ask Duncan how much time you'll have he says a little over an hour. If you're significantly later than that Loghain will know that the Beacon is late but he needed it to know exactly when to charge and not just a rough estimate. Alistair's supposed to get a signal when the optimal time for Loghain's charge was, after all.

[Daneres]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Maybe it was just that he assumed (like many gamers) that the Empress' friendly letter to Cailan being in the same box as the letter Eamon sent advising him to ditch Anora (which you can bet made Loghain feel even more justified for poisoning him) meant that he was not only abandoning Anora but planning on marrying Celene and surrender Ferelden sovereignty but he got pissed when I decided to light a pyre for Cailan. The dialogue options make it sound like it's just because he's of royal blood but I just did that because it was common decency. Loghain didn't like the idea of leaving him as a trophy but he did want to feed him to the wolves.

And Wynne, of course, was awful. Her condemning Loghain for Ostagar was so annoying I actually started to see Loghain's POV.

I've never spared Loghain in a game yet, therefore (obviously, lol) I haven't had him with me in Ostagar. But I did read the pieces of conversation he has on Wiki and yes, I see his point as well. I think what Cailan was going to do - to his wife and country - was...well, quite appalling. I liked Cailan's character until I found out about this is RTO. So not kind to a lady who is his wife, to be disrespected and cast off like that (even if I don't care for her all that much). lol

[Daneres]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Yea Wynne is just awful in Ostagar period. Last time I ran through I took Leli, Alistair and Dog. I got some weird disapprovals from some of my group members over Cailan's pyre.

Dog's howl when youi take down Cailan's body was the most touching thing about it for me. I Rped it as my PC was putting to rest not just Cailan but that part of her life and her family (HNF) at the same time. (To explain the sadface over a man she barely knew).

I nearly cried when the dog howled. It was moving. And I didn't like that Wynne stomped all over Loghain's reaction to the fact that his daughter was going to be disrespected and dumped by her husband either. I don't care how evil he is or what he's done, that's still his daughter and he is her father. My dad sure wouldn't stand for a guy doing that to me without reacting badly and the guy hearing about it, let alone someone else who condones it (so to speak) hearing about it, let me tell ya. lol

[Daneres]

Caldarin V wrote...

Loghain didn't sabotage it; you lit the beacon late. The darkspawn tunneled up through the floor and took the tower; he had no way to predict that.

Actually, if you really wanna blame somebody, blame the chantry.. if they'd just let the mage signal Loghain, everything would have been fine

I agree. They should just have let the Mages do it (I condemn the Chantry for so many reasons, lol). But then...I guess we wouldn't have had a game to play.

[Xandurpein]

@RazorrX and others



You post interesting theories. It would do a lot for the tone of this thread if you posted it as theories instead of claiming that it is indisputable facts. We have precious few facts to go with at all and virtually all facts can be interpreted in many ways. It's always nice to keep an open mind...