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[Sarah1281]

Daneres wrote...

Caldarin V wrote...

Loghain didn't sabotage it; you lit the beacon late. The darkspawn tunneled up through the floor and took the tower; he had no way to predict that.

Actually, if you really wanna blame somebody, blame the chantry.. if they'd just let the mage signal Loghain, everything would have been fine

I agree. They should just have let the Mages do it (I condemn the Chantry for so many reasons, lol). But then...I guess we wouldn't have had a game to play.

When do we find out that the Chantry wouldn't let the mages light it? People keep saying that but I've never come across it in the game.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 20 avril 2010 - 01:53 .

[Aisynia]

Daneres wrote...

Caldarin V wrote...

Loghain didn't sabotage it; you lit the beacon late. The darkspawn tunneled up through the floor and took the tower; he had no way to predict that.

Actually, if you really wanna blame somebody, blame the chantry.. if they'd just let the mage signal Loghain, everything would have been fine

I agree. They should just have let the Mages do it (I condemn the Chantry for so many reasons, lol). But then...I guess we wouldn't have had a game to play.

That was Uldred making the offer. He was in bed with Loghain all the way. Chances are he was offering to send the signal so that he could make sure it wasn't sent.

Sarah1281 wrote...
When do we find out that the Chantry wouldn't
let the mages light it? People keep saying that but I've never come
across it in the game.

RIGHT after your Joining, you are asked to attend the strategy meeting with the King, Loghain, and Duncan. Uldred and the Revered Mother (in fact, maybe a grand cleric) are also there. When discussing the beacon, Uldred tries to interject, saying that the tower is unecessary, and that the circle could send the signal. The Revered Mother interrupts him with about 8 tons of scorn in her tone, saying they wouldn't trust any lives to magic, and to save it for the darkspawn.

Modifié par Aisynia, 20 avril 2010 - 02:26 .

[Aisynia]

Jeli wrote...

I haven't finished the human noble origin, but here are some questions:

Was Howe's takeover of Cousland essentially one of Loghain's powerplays? If so, it shows that Loghain was already plotting his takeover well before the battle

When was Eamon poisoned? After or before the battle? I would think it would be before, because afterwards you'd imagine Eamon would be much more suspicious of infiltration. This would also suggest Loghain's forethought.

Either way, one obvious fact is that Loghain was blind to the threat of the Blight. That is indisputable. He was consolidating political power while the darkspawn marched into Ferelden

Some of this I am not sure on, but from what I know of Howe, and what I know of Loghain, here are my thoughts.

You'll notice that Eleanor Cousland is talking about how they were in Orlais and that someone mistook Bryce for the king of Ferelden. This means they had contact with Orlesians in some official and friendly manner. It can be assumed that Loghain considered the Couslands traitors. Getting them out of the way was probably Howe's idea, with Loghain's approval. On the other hand, the sheer MASSACRE was probably not Loghain's plan. I imagine Loghain wasn't happy when he heard about the extremes to which Howe went, but he was already in bed with him and couldn't really back out. Howe was too powerful an ally to throw out the window. If a Cousland talks to Loghain at his tent in Ostagar, he mentions that Cailan is likely going to carry out his promise to take Howe out.. and from what David Gaider has told us, Loghain never INTENDED to kill Cailan at Ostagar, that was sort of a last minute thing, something he was PREPARED for, not a plan.

Circumstantial evidence points to Eamon being poisoned sometime between when the messenger left Redcliffe, and when the Warden arrived at Ostagar. According to David Gaider, the plan was never to kill Eamon anyways, just debilitate him.. Arlessa Isolde did a good job of making sure that got completely screwed up with how she handled the situation and massacred her village.

And yeah, Loghain was in complete denial, as a true blight would mean that he was a traitor, something he couldn't reconcile within himself.

[jpdipity]

Jeli wrote...

Was Howe's takeover of Cousland essentially one of Loghain's powerplays? If so, it shows that Loghain was already plotting his takeover well before the battle

I am pretty sure that Gaider said that Loghain had nothing to do with Howe's attack on the Couslands.

[Sarah1281]

RIGHT after your Joining, you are asked to attend the strategy meeting with the King, Loghain, and Duncan. Uldred and the Revered Mother (in fact, maybe a grand cleric) are also there. When discussing the beacon, Uldred tries to interject, saying that the tower is unecessary, and that the circle could send the signal. The Revered Mother interrupts him with about 8 tons of scorn in her tone, saying they wouldn't trust any lives to magic, and to save it for the darkspawn.

Really? I was wondering why a Revered Mother and someone who looked kind of like Uldred were just standing there but no matter how many times I've played Ostagar they never have anything to say. Probably a bug, then.

[Kurt M.]

jpdipity wrote...

Jeli wrote...

Was Howe's takeover of Cousland essentially one of Loghain's powerplays? If so, it shows that Loghain was already plotting his takeover well before the battle

I am pretty sure that Gaider said that Loghain had nothing to do with Howe's attack on the Couslands.

Really? It'd have been pretty convenient for both of them, considering that Howe was working with Loghain and that the Couslands have always been (I think) in Cailan's side...

[Aisynia]

Sarah1281 wrote...

RIGHT after your Joining, you are asked to attend the strategy meeting with the King, Loghain, and Duncan. Uldred and the Revered Mother (in fact, maybe a grand cleric) are also there. When discussing the beacon, Uldred tries to interject, saying that the tower is unecessary, and that the circle could send the signal. The Revered Mother interrupts him with about 8 tons of scorn in her tone, saying they wouldn't trust any lives to magic, and to save it for the darkspawn.

Really? I was wondering why a Revered Mother and someone who looked kind of like Uldred were just standing there but no matter how many times I've played Ostagar they never have anything to say. Probably a bug, then.

I've never had them not speak.

[Aisynia]

Gladiador2 wrote...

jpdipity wrote...

Jeli wrote...

Was Howe's takeover of Cousland essentially one of Loghain's powerplays? If so, it shows that Loghain was already plotting his takeover well before the battle

I am pretty sure that Gaider said that Loghain had nothing to do with Howe's attack on the Couslands.

Really? It'd have been pretty convenient for both of them, considering that Howe was working with Loghain and that the Couslands have always been (I think) in Cailan's side...

Well you have to remember that Howe has a mind of his own, and really did a lot of things that surprised Loghain (like hiring the crows). Howe was also a complete and total bastard.

[Sadie]

I know this post hasn't been replied to in months, but I just stumbled across it so forgive me.



I just wanted to let it be known, if no one else has learned this yet, that when Duncan tells you what you need to do at Ostagar (go see Alistair, etc) you -absolutely- have the option to turn around and explore the area where the Tower of Ishal is instead of following Duncan across the bridge.



Aside from some random loot in sacks you have very interesting dialogue with the guard who prevents you from getting any closer to the Tower. Through this dialogue you learn that access is blocked because not only does Loghain have knowledge about the tunnels/state of the tower, but his men were currently in there.



Then to further add everything if you have high cunning (30) when you find all the darkspawn in the tower there's an extra dialogue option to which you can respond to Alistair's exclaimation of "Maker's breath! What are these darkspawn doing of the rest of the horde? There wasn't supposed any resistance here!" with: "[cunning] Why attack the tower at all, unless they know the plan?"



Not to mention that Gaider did admit in an interview that Loghain never intended for the beacon to be lit so it could be his excuse for not joining the battle.



I don't think Loghain wanted the Cailan to die, but doesn't regret that he did. I think ultimately he wanted to get the Wardens and Orlais out of the picture so he would have the final say in battle. Not truly evil, but he did intentionally plan for and set up a lot of things to ensure he would have very little opposition. Ex: Hiring Jowan to poison Arl Eamon and possibly siding with Uldred though perhaps not knowing he was a blood mage..) And as for Arl Howe, he likely wasn't involved in the death of the Couslands, but he did benefit from it especially since Howe was all too willing to get his hands dirty in an attempt to clean Loghain's.



Regardless, in the end Loghain all but admits his decisions were ultimately wrong. If you spared his life, that is...

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Sadiekins wrote...

Not to mention that Gaider did admit in an interview that Loghain never intended for the beacon to be lit so it could be his excuse for not joining the battle.

Others on this board have quoted Gaider as saying that Loghain wanted Uldred, who was in his pocket, in the tower instead of the Wardens so that if it turned out that the battle was FUBAR and he needed an excuse not to advance, he could trust Uldred not to light the beacon. However, it was not Loghain's predetermined course of action. He was supposedly waiting to see how things turned out and was prepared for either eventuality. I didn't see the original interview with Gaider, but it's been quoted on these boards before. I'm sure someone could find it for you.

One gameplay note about bringing Loghain to Ostagar, though: if you don't also bring Wynne and your character is getting along well with Loghain, his dialogue --or monologue, really, as he's mostly talking to himself-- in the DLC is jarringly out of sync with the rest of his behavior as your companion. I found this out when I brought just him and Dog back to Ostagar in my last playthrough. He and my Mage were coexisting quite nicely and then suddenly I had bitter angry screaming Landsmeet-style Loghain back again.

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 17 février 2011 - 11:43 .

[DragonRacer13]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Sadiekins wrote...

Not to mention that Gaider did admit in an interview that Loghain never intended for the beacon to be lit so it could be his excuse for not joining the battle.

He and my Mage were coexisting quite nicely and then suddenly I had bitter angry screaming Landsmeet-style Loghain back again.

Ah, "Death Metal" Loghain...

[Persephone]

DragonRacer13 wrote...

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Sadiekins wrote...

Not to mention that Gaider did admit in an interview that Loghain never intended for the beacon to be lit so it could be his excuse for not joining the battle.

He and my Mage were coexisting quite nicely and then suddenly I had bitter angry screaming Landsmeet-style Loghain back again.

Ah, "Death Metal" Loghain...

"The CHEATING BASTARD!" :wub: No one snarks like Loghain!

[Xilizhra]

BHRamsay wrote...

It's always interesting to hear the Calian-was-a-fool opinion without the accompanying truth that Loghain and Anora make constant and gleeful remarks to the effect that they were effectively running the kingdom.
Calian deserved better then a Father-in-law who had no problem humiliating him in front of his troops and a wife who complains about Calain's lack of ability to rule but let's her father turn the country into a warzone.
Calian was tired of being treated like an idiot and he wanted to prove he was capable of doing the job of being king and ruling his people
Considering how often people the PC speaks with practically genuflect when the topic of Loghain's war record comes up, is it any wonder Calian would see defeating a blight as maybe the only way he was going to finally get some respect from his Queen and his General.

This, largely. I respect Loghain, but I feel that way too few people give Cailan any kind of chance.

[lost lupus]

i cannot beleive im backing up Uldred but:

Uldred side with logain AFTER Ostagar Wynne explains that she stayed behind to help the wounded or (or she herself was wounded) and Logain promised Uldred support

Uldred and his mates then went straight back to the tower by the time wynne got back everything went to crap nowhere does ths suggest fore sight or pre planning by Uldred his haste also shows how desperate he was to break from the chantry

Logain however im not so sure? they knew about the tunnels in the tower of Ishal BEFORE the battle
why with the knowledge of the tunnels and that they had no idea how deep they go would they still insist on the tower?

if it was the only spot from which the surrounding troops could see the signal which left them NO choice then we know for a fact that ostagar fell because of chantry interfernce

[Sadie]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Sadiekins wrote...

Not to mention that Gaider did admit in an interview that Loghain never intended for the beacon to be lit so it could be his excuse for not joining the battle.

Others on this board have quoted Gaider as saying that Loghain wanted Uldred, who was in his pocket, in the tower instead of the Wardens so that if it turned out that the battle was FUBAR and he needed an excuse not to advance, he could trust Uldred not to light the beacon. However, it was not Loghain's predetermined course of action. He was supposedly waiting to see how things turned out and was prepared for either eventuality. I didn't see the original interview with Gaider, but it's been quoted on these boards before. I'm sure someone could find it for you.

I had read Gaider's responses before I submitted my post to make sure I wasn't just pulling that out of my arse.

David Gaider wrote...

Either Loghain or Uldred wanted to be in control of the tower, so that they could make sure the beacon wouldn't be lit -- if it came to that. If the beacon wasn't lit, Loghain couldn't be blamed for not joining the battle in time.

Another thread on gamefaq's claims DG has stated that: 

Loghain allied with Uldred to try and convince the mages to support him if he failed at convincing Cailan to leave Ostagar. He was also to make sure the beacon would not be lit if Cailan refused to leave Ostagar. (Loghain had no idea Uldred was a blood mage.)

I know the latter isn't from a direct post of DG himself so it's merely speculation without official confirmation but it seems the general idea is that Loghain had predetermined a lot of possible outcomes--walking away being one of them--but ultimately didn't finalize his decision until the last possible moment.

[USArmyParatrooper]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

3) Whatever remorse Loghain feels about the entire thing is restricted to the men he had to sacrifice.

Why should he feel remorse for abandoning that idiot Cailan to die, after telling him it was too dangerous to fight the darkspawn?

Loghain favoured leaving Cailan's body to the wolves... I found this a little weird and extrem

To give Cailan a pyre means you respected the man. I certainly don't respect a idiot who can't even realize he is playing with the lives of hundreds/thousands of soldiers, and doesn't care he might lose a great deal of them.

Extreme is leaving him for the darkspawn.

Yeah, Calain should have known Loghain was so disgraceful he would abandon him, leaving him to fight with only half his troop strength. What an idiot.

[USArmyParatrooper]

jpdipity wrote...

Jeli wrote...

Was Howe's takeover of Cousland essentially one of Loghain's powerplays? If so, it shows that Loghain was already plotting his takeover well before the battle

I am pretty sure that Gaider said that Loghain had nothing to do with Howe's attack on the Couslands.

He did. But he also said he knew about it and still chose to remain in bed with him. But then, do you really expect a slave runner to care about such things? 

[Persephone]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

jpdipity wrote...

Jeli wrote...

Was Howe's takeover of Cousland essentially one of Loghain's powerplays? If so, it shows that Loghain was already plotting his takeover well before the battle

I am pretty sure that Gaider said that Loghain had nothing to do with Howe's attack on the Couslands.

He did. But he also said he knew about it and still chose to remain in bed with him. But then, do you really expect a slave runner to care about such things? 

As much as you "care"  to grasp the basics of politics, no? White washed morals are so greeeeeat, truly. In a land of unicorns and bunnies. It must be wonderful to see the world in b/w. Ah and if you wish to be moralistic, I've got one for ya: Judge not, lest you be judged.

Modifié par Persephone, 18 février 2011 - 03:28 .

[USArmyParatrooper]

Persephone wrote...

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

jpdipity wrote...

Jeli wrote...

Was Howe's takeover of Cousland essentially one of Loghain's powerplays? If so, it shows that Loghain was already plotting his takeover well before the battle

I am pretty sure that Gaider said that Loghain had nothing to do with Howe's attack on the Couslands.

He did. But he also said he knew about it and still chose to remain in bed with him. But then, do you really expect a slave runner to care about such things? 

As much as you "care"  to grasp the basics of politics, no? White washed morals are so greeeeeat, truly. In a land of unicorns and bunnies. It must be wonderful to see the world in b/w. Ah and if you wish to be moralistic, I've got one for ya: Judge not, lest you be judged.

Yikes, are you being serious right now? I fully understand the basics (and complexities for that matter) of politics. But we're not exactly talking about a Senator who changed his vote after a campaign donation. I agree that shades of gray exist. But I don't agree that running slaves and slaughtering every man, woman and child in a villiage is one of them.

Modifié par USArmyParatrooper, 18 février 2011 - 03:40 .

[sevalaricgirl]

Loghain dies in my games every time because payback is a ****. He wanted my warden and her bff/love dead and hired assassins to do it. There was no love lost there even if I put Anora on the throne. Loghain was vile.

[Persephone]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Loghain dies in my games every time because payback is a ****. He wanted my warden and her bff/love dead and hired assassins to do it. There was no love lost there even if I put Anora on the throne. Loghain was vile.

So essentially, your Warden lassie is a vengeful, sentimental lady who takes political machinations personally? I'll never understand the haters, I swear to God. At least not such a reasoning which strikes me as utterly ridiculous. 

[USArmyParatrooper]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Loghain dies in my games every time because payback is a ****. He wanted my warden and her bff/love dead and hired assassins to do it. There was no love lost there even if I put Anora on the throne. Loghain was vile.

Yep. I admit for a half a second I did feel slightly bad when his blood splattered all over his daughter. But then I remembered how she lied at the Landsmeet and told the assembly I had kidnapped her.