182 réponses à ce sujet

[DragonShepard138]

I killed him on one playthrough cuz he was just annoying me how I couldn't raise his approval during that playthrough, every thing i did pissed him off.

[errant_knight]

DragonShepard138 wrote...

I killed him on one playthrough cuz he was just annoying me how I couldn't raise his approval during that playthrough, every thing i did pissed him off.

Right. Er, that's not all that helpful in terms of character motivations. You can't really write about someone killing their lover because they find them annoying unless you're writing about a lunatic.

[LadyDamodred]

errant_knight: I have a penchant for creating chars that do evil things. If you need help, lemme know. Mwuahahahaha.

[errant_knight]

LadyDamodred wrote...

errant_knight: I have a penchant for creating chars that do evil things. If you need help, lemme know. Mwuahahahaha.

Will do! Thanks!

[hexaligned]

Selfishness is my own personal definition of evil. Everything else is relative. Given both AListairs nature and experience, I don't see any reason to put him on the throne (or to keep him alive, once he breaks down emotionally) except selfish ones. Therefore from my viewpoint that's the "evil" option.

You could make a character that is more focused on the bigger picture, but isn't above moment by moment emotional attachments, without her being necessarily evil

[Lowenhart]

Play through a couple of times and executing Aliaster comes more or less natural, at least for me as its get to a point where i grow weary of his childishness, his lack of sense of responsibility and his humor gets tidious after a while.

But then again that is just me, but i could never consider putting him in a throne after getting to really know him. Plus his a bit of a hypocrit just to add to things.

EDIT: Duty/law only really apply to him forward people he doesnt like rest seem to matter less, which again adds to the point that his a hypocrit.

Modifié par Lowenhart, 18 avril 2010 - 04:04 .

[Zalbaar]

I don't see how a Cousland can kill Alistair, unless you can honestly say you did not go through the game with vengence for your family on your mind, and take pleasure in killing that horrible man Howe.



Other than that I killed Allistair with my city elf playthrough, I could not get him to fully finish the love story with me so I got mad that he would have broken up with me so I took care of him first. Then I had Loghain kill the arche demon.

[errant_knight]

relhart wrote...

Selfishness is my own personal definition of evil. Everything else is relative. Given both AListairs nature and experience, I don't see any reason to put him on the throne (or to keep him alive, once he breaks down emotionally) except selfish ones. Therefore from my viewpoint that's the "evil" option.
You could make a character that is more focused on the bigger picture, but isn't above moment by moment emotional attachments, without her being necessarily evil

I could, but that rational works nicely for my amoral villain.

Lowenhart wrote...

Play through a couple of times and executing Aliaster comes more or less natural, at least for me as its get to a point where i grow weary of his childishness, his lack of sense of responsibility and his humor gets tidious after a while.

But then again that is just me, but i could never consider putting him in a throne after getting to really know him. Plus his a bit of a hypocrit just to add to things.

EDIT: Duty/law only really apply to him forward people he doesnt like rest seem to matter less, which again adds to the point that his a hypocrit.

You're telling me how you felt about it. I need to know what your character's motivations were, and how they felt about him in the relationship and about having him killed while still in that relationship. Were they in love? Just using him? Did they fall out of love without breaking up? If so, why? Did they feel guilt, either at the time, or later?

Zalbaar wrote...

I don't see how a Cousland can kill Alistair, unless you can honestly say you did not go through the game with vengence for your family on your mind, and take pleasure in killing that horrible man Howe.

Other than that I killed Allistair with my city elf playthrough, I could not get him to fully finish the love story with me so I got mad that he would have broken up with me so I took care of him first. Then I had Loghain kill the arche demon.

You got mad? As in outside the game? I need in-game stuff here. It sounds like your city elf playthrough was about decisions made outside the game. The character couldn't have know she wouldn't be queen. Or did you play it that she knew? In which case, she killed her lover because he wouldn't be allowed to marry her? What made her decide to do that instead of breaking up with him?

Modifié par errant_knight, 18 avril 2010 - 06:49 .

[Hechicera]

(Long story alert)

I think it is *easier* to kill him as a female Cousland.  As another mentioned above, Cousland's are only royalists if the royalty is good for Ferelden.  The Cousland line predates Ferelden and has thier own code of noblesse oblige (in the moral obligation sense).  This is brought out in the Codex, the early Noble origin and in the Keep DLC.  I really can't see any other origin caring as much about the "good of Ferelden".  The origin aloso makes it clear you were bred and educated in using power, and not for evil.

One of my female Cousland did in one of the three endings I played for her.  I liked it second best from an RP point of view.  She did romance him.  RP-wise this only works with Alistair unhardened.  This is how it unfolds:

As a second child and a daughter with her older brother already having an heir (so her father had an heir and a spare) it was clear her likely future was an arranged marriage.  Howe was clearly sniffing out his chances with his son.  Since the honor of her family relied on her reputation, she was not sleeping around, at least not before an arranged marriage and her probably production of an indisputable heir and a spare in her future.  This meant she was well versed in power, nobility, politics, obligations of nobility and took them all seriously, but wasn't much more romantically experienced than Alistair.  She may not have like the constraints her future need to produce an undisputed heir for some politically convenient person made on her sexuality, but she would have understood her duty and lived up to it.  But, her origin tale unfolds and she is a reluctant Grey Warden.  She accepts out of duty not glory.  Family ties are severed, this now means her marriage and love life are her own.  Of course that is the last thing she is thinking about ... then.

Ironically as the early campaign unfolds she has to beat both a needy Alistair and Leliana off with a stick.  It is really hard to beat a needy Alistiar off, esp. when everyone he just knew was betrayed and slaughtered.  So, yes a romance starts.   It is a real romance.  When it starts she has no idea he is a king's bastard.  The romance does start slowly though.  As you would with anyone who had been through something traumatic, she continues to offer him reassurance.  How was she to know that needy is his normal state?  When he announces before Redcliffe she is rather annoyed really.  Not about him trusting her, but the danger.  That sort of a thing is important to know.  Then his reason for not telling her, selfish.  She never had the luxury of hiding her status and seeing if people "just liked her for herself".  At the time she is the last Cousland (as far as she knows).  But, still then, she can understand.  This though is the first sign of trouble.  In other respects Alistair does seem to have and be developing a sense of duty so initially this early selfishness stands out little.  When he asks to find Goldanna immediately, she offers him more reassurance.  His response is to fully declare love (it seems) even with a line that he hasn't paid as much attention to how hard it was for her.  Considering her whole family was slaughtered, she agrees, but thinks things are turning around.   And Alistair's has the "don't kick the puppy" thing going on for him.

It isn't until right at the Landsmeet that she realizes things are not turning around.  But first, we must understand women who wield power in an era of male inheritance and political marriages.   My character is capable of respect without full agreement, another trait needed in high politics.   Anora understands power.  The thing that really sets up Alistair for death is the female Cousland and Anora developing mutual respect.  Trusts completely, no.  But this is politics.  Personal compromises and sacrifices made for political duty and the good of Ferelden are expected.  The Cousland PC's mother was no wimp herself.   Seeing eye to eye with other strong women should have been in character.

When you are working prior to the Landsmeet, Alistair continues to express anxiety and unwillingness to govern.  This is bad.  But, well, he has you, so it isn't fatal.  The contrast with Anora is stark though.   Anora insinuates that her father may also in some way be a victim of Howe, if a willing one.  She does not excuse her father, and for political expediency is willing to allow her father to die and herself to be married to Alistair.  She admits her first marriage was political with mistresses and she did her duty in public.  She openly challenges, and will accept  the Cousland female as a mistress behind the scenes.  I repect her for wanting to know.   Sure Anora is in it for herself.   But she will also do the right thing by Ferelden at significant personal cost.   Feeling that she is not short on ruling savvy and connections of her own, my character felt she would be equal to making Anora live up to her offers.

So into Landsmeet we go.  Anora supports us and us usual the Cousland woman does all the talking.  Loghain is forced into the duel which he loses.  When the PC tries to accept Riordan's offer yes, you get Alistair's hissy fit.  Anora is calm.  So, lets get this straight - he is willing to go from 4 to 3 Grey Warden's just because he doesn't like *what type* of death sentence you are placing on Loghain.  Without metagame, we don't know Loghain will survive joining.  Survival rate of the warden's at Ostagar was abysmal.  So, yes, a death sentence, just delayed, giving him a chance to die at joining or in battle.  My Cousland PC would have allowed Howe to live, as long as he couldn't do more harm, if that was the trade off she needed to make to defeat the blight and fix Ferelden.  Yet, Alistair is not capable of delaying personal gratification for the good of Ferelden or defeating the blight.

The following dailog would have come back to my PC then.  Loghain's own second in command standing down (the PC used persuasion) and allowing his defeat.  Wynn's comments about Grey Wardens also being protectors of all and that resonating with her inbred noblesse oblige.   Wynn's pointy questions about having to chose between the blight and Alistair, and her difficulty finding an acceptable answer.  Alistair's banter dialog where he was asked the same question by Wynn but blew it off as "that's a stupid question".  Alistair's comments about sleeping with the hounds when in noble houses, and his inability to fend off Morrigan when questioned about what he learned in the Chantry.   Alistair (unhardened) had none of the training or values needed to rule, and was now displaying this, clearly (and viciously pointed out by Anora!).   Not only that, but see how easily he had been led about by the PC.   The choice was between not only Alistair and the blight, but Alistair and the blight and a stable Ferelden.  A Cousland could (and did) chose defeating the blight and a secure Ferelden over Alistair.  Not without anguish, but not with evil intent either.  Alistair did have a claim to the throne, but he was self-centered, weak, vengeful, had no desire to rule and in the presence of a strong woman, malleable.  Yes, he had to die.

The PC would feel horrible, yes, but would do it.

Afterwards, she would still be conflicted.  She would still feel the decision was correct (and without metagaming it is - she doesn't know a hardened Alistair makes a good king).  It was her lack of judgment and constantly thinking she could fix Alistair by constantly reassuring him and her own denial of his flaws that would get to her.   She would be very relieved that her brother was alive to continue the Cousland line.  She now questions her own ability to judge character when blinded by emotion.  A common enough flaw, but she was taught to hold herself to high standards.  Ironically, she judged Morrigan (declined ritual and left), Anora (made a competent queen except for no heir) and Loghain (he offered to die and atone) properly.  But the fact she missed Alistair's fatal flaw will bother her forever.   In a way, Wynn tried to warn her, so she will be be prickly around Wynn now too.

Her response would be to try and compensate by providing value, but not exposing her flaw.  Since Grey Warden's can divorce themselves from politics, she would very much go into suicidal commando mode fighting darkspawn and ignoring political life.  She would not take leadership of the Grey Warden's in Ferelden, nor of the army.   She would be volunteering for all the hardest assignments until she had worked some of this out.  Her own flaw, of being blinded by love to a persons flaw's, almost put an insecure, unfit and easily influenced king on the throne in a blight and of all people to have been a good judge of his fitness to rule, she should have been!  She was a Cousland after all.  Sure, the relationship started when she had renounced her name.  She had no idea who Alistair was, and thought when it started that she could afford a romance for herself.  However, Anora didn't accept excuses for Loghain.  Loghain eventually did not accept excuses for himself.  The PC will not excuse herself either and will become one tough woman.

So there it is, how a Cousland can really love Alistair and still kill him, without a second thought.  I don't feel it is evil per se, of course the whole concept of valuing a nation over a person (esp one you love) is perhaps evil.  But add in the threat of the blight and ... hmmm ... murky.

One thing that makes this particular Cousland twist so delicious from meta gaming is the story of King Maric and Katriona.  Maric kills his true love and Maric's son is also killed by his true love, both because of suspicion that their first loyalty wasn't to Ferelden.  I didn't even know about Maric & Katriona when I did the Cousland run.  There certainly is precedent in the story already.

[Sarah1281]

Hechicera wrote...



As a second child and a daughter with her older brother already having an heir (so her father had an heir and a spare) it was clear her likely future was an arranged marriage. Howe was clearly sniffing out his chances with his son.

That was really interesting and I could see that happening. One thing, though: in the beginning when Howe is talking about his son, he mentions that your parents refuse to force you or Fergus into a political marriage and that's how Fergus ended up with an Antivan woman.



And Maric's love wasn't Katriona, it was Katriel.

[Aisynia]

mousestalker wrote...

I had a city elf that executed Alistair. They were still in a relationship, but she didn't appreciate how he reacted in the Alienage. There was the whole "we aren't going to get mugged" comment, with the total surprise that she had been engaged and then meeting her father after Caladrius (Wynne lost approval with my PC on that one as well. No, Wynne, I'm going to spare the S O B who kidnapped and imprisoned my father and now wants to use his life force for some blood magic ritual).

She had asked about his childhood, his upbringing, his likes and dislikes and suddenly she was aware that he had never asked anything about her. The blinders fell off. When he pitched about sparing Loghain she found herself agreeing with Anora. It broke her heart, but she wound up consenting to Alistair's execution. Alistair was, in her opinion, acting like a child. A childish man with a claim to the throne would be a threat to the unity of the kingdom as long as he lived.

She wound up refusing Morrigan's Dark Ritual and killed the arch demon herself out of grief and self loathing. She felt the worst punishment she could give to Loghain was to let him live with himself and with Alistair dead, she didn't want to live.

Very much like a Greek tragedy.

Beautifully tragic

[Hechicera]

Sarah1281 wrote...

 One thing, though: in the beginning when Howe is talking about his son, he mentions that your parents refuse to force you or Fergus into a political marriage and that's how Fergus ended up with an Antivan woman.

And Maric's love wasn't Katriona, it was Katriel.

My bad on the name, it was the K-one, not Fiona that I am thinking about. 

Forcing and asking are two different things.  Her hand in marriage as a Cousland has a value and she would know it.   Historically older children produced the heirs and younger ones married out for alliances.   I did see the parents statement as indicating they would never force her into a bad relationship strictly for the political gain.  I did not see it as giving her license to run off with some (oh so very hot?) stableboy for giggles.  Though she may not have been disowned for that due to doting permissive parents.

The way I drew the character, she would have been expecting requests for  arranged marriages to choices that would treat her well and brought in good alliances.  Most  medieval noble marriages were arranged.  She expected to have veto power on the marriage proposals if the match was abhorrent to her.  As Anora's (and several RL friends from different cultures), arranged marriages that are not forced, if well-chosen, often become perfectly good loving relationships.   She might have helped arranged her own marriage for an optimal match.  A sense of noblesse oblige was central to her values the way I chose to RP her.   If love never developed in her marriage, she would have been disappointed but could have handled that.   After the appropriate heirs to cement an alliance there could have been discreet dalliances.  But, obligations first, hot stableboys later as mid-life crises if they became needed.  Those were her expectations due to her station, not that her life worked out that way.  Mostly it meant she had to pick the formal polite dialog responses. =P

The dialog later with Wynn about Grey Wardens actually being constrained by thier power resonated strongly with her RP-wise.   That is how she would have viewed marriage choices prior to being a Grey Warden.  This wasn't a young woman who dreamed of being swept off her feet.  

[errant_knight]

I don't think too many conclusions can be drawn from the fact that the Couslands were willing to overthrow one king. He was completely insane and they may well have had another Therin in mind to replace him.



I'd like to thank everyone for their input, it's been very helpful. I've pretty much decided that my villain PC will be a city elf as the possible lifetime of hatred, deprivation, and disrespect lends provides motivation for where the story looks like it may be going.

[CalJones]

Interesting - I've never had the comment from Eamon about the end of the Theirin bloodline. I always thought it was especially odd that he, of all people, didn't comment on Alistair's death, but I always assumed him rather cowardly.

I've not once executed him with a love interest. My mage who loved Alistair married him off to Anora, spared Loghain and then killed the AD herself as she figured Al & Anora would have a better chance of happiness with her out of the picture.

I did execute him with my ruthless Cousland male, however - he married Anora and didn't want any potential threats (and more to the point, he and Alistair hated each other. -100).

[sleepingbelow]

This doesn't really help the OP, but I've played what I felt have been some stone cold pragmatic Warden's that did not execute Alistair. Don't get me wrong, what's been written here are very rational justifications for offing Alistair. Just in the case with MY pragmatic Wardens, they put Anora on the throne because they felt putting a Grey Warden on the throne interferes with the whole "Wardens being politically neutral in matters other than the Blight, thing". Ruling a country isn't our job, killing darkspawn is, and one interferes with the other. Not all my characters think that way, but the 'pragmatic' ones that specifically I have played so far, have.



Therefore, those characters haven't wanted to let Anora execute Alistair, because they're already retreating from politics outside of ones dealing with the Blight. If I'm trying to keep my chocolate out of Anora's peanut butter, she better not try to behead my candy bar. Continues a bad precedent of political figures in Ferelden killing Grey Wardens, which should be outside of politics. Albeit a little provoked in Sophia Dryden's case.



Also, Alistair is my boy. Without him, who's going to help me jump the Bann Lee over the Dead Trenches when we're being chased by Boss Logh and Sheriff Cauthrien?

[errant_knight]

sleepingbelow wrote...
Also, Alistair is my boy. Without him, who's going to help me jump the Bann Lee over the Dead Trenches when we're being chased by Boss Logh and Sheriff Cauthrien?

That may not have helped specifically, but that sure gave me a smile.

Modifié par errant_knight, 19 avril 2010 - 07:02 .

[Lady Jess]

sleepingbelow wrote...

This doesn't really help the OP, but I've played what I felt have been some stone cold pragmatic Warden's that did not execute Alistair. Don't get me wrong, what's been written here are very rational justifications for offing Alistair. Just in the case with MY pragmatic Wardens, they put Anora on the throne because they felt putting a Grey Warden on the throne interferes with the whole "Wardens being politically neutral in matters other than the Blight, thing". Ruling a country isn't our job, killing darkspawn is, and one interferes with the other. Not all my characters think that way, but the 'pragmatic' ones that specifically I have played so far, have.

Therefore, those characters haven't wanted to let Anora execute Alistair, because they're already retreating from politics outside of ones dealing with the Blight. If I'm trying to keep my chocolate out of Anora's peanut butter, she better not try to behead my candy bar. Continues a bad precedent of political figures in Ferelden killing Grey Wardens, which should be outside of politics. Albeit a little provoked in Sophia Dryden's case.

Also, Alistair is my boy. Without him, who's going to help me jump the Bann Lee over the Dead Trenches when we're being chased by Boss Logh and Sheriff Cauthrien?

/applaud
/bow

You win! I spit diet pepsi in my keyboard and remembered my childhood all at the same time....rofl

[Aisynia]

Went over my head.

[Xandurpein]

@Errant_knight



We've had this discussion before, but I think it's perfectly possible to RP a Cousland thinking Anora is of nobler blood than Alistair. It all comes down to perception and what legal and moral rights you think a bastard has. By medieval custom Anora was a noblewoman (although with the stigma of being 'new nobility'), but Alistair is just the son of a servant girl, as Maric didn't aknowledge him as his. I'm not saying a Cousland should roleplay this way, just that it is perfectly possible to do so and still stay within the Cousland tradition.

[CalJones]

Now I'm picturing Leliana in a tiny pair of denim shorts and a checked shirt knotted under her bosom.

[nos_astra]

But still, from not being King material to execution is a big step for someone who is in love with him - a big step towards insanity. It's one thing to kill people for things they have done, but another have someone killed who hasn't done anything wrong other than being too emotional at a point when being rational would have been benefical. The worst thing he does is trying to grab power, but he doesn't even draw a sword and will choose to leave before Anora can even order his execution. Why would someone who is in love with him want him to die then?

I just can't find any reason why the Warden would want his immediate death. She just spared Loghain. Yes, I know being a Warden can be considered a death sentence, but if it's a death sentence, why killing Alistair now rather than let him leave? He'll die eventually anyway.

Modifié par klarabella, 19 avril 2010 - 08:25 .

[Urshakk]

klarabella wrote...
I just can't find any reason why the Warden would want his immediate death. She just spared Loghain. Yes, I know being a Warden can be considered a death sentence, but if it's a death sentence, why killing Alistair now rather than let him leave? He'll die eventually anyway.

Why? Letting him go is worse imo. He disappears knowing he was just betrayed by someone he loved, the man he wanted dead was spared and joined the Grey Wardens, he has no more claim to the throne, etc. He has to live with himself, he becomes a drunk and basically does nothing, death is more merciful.

Modifié par Urshakk, 19 avril 2010 - 08:35 .

[Lara Denton]

klarabella wrote...

But still, from not being King material to execution is a big step for someone who is in love with him - a big step towards insanity. It's one thing to kill people for things they have done, but another have someone killed who hasn't done anything wrong other than being too emotional at a point when being rational would have been benefical. The worst thing he does is trying to grab power, but he doesn't even draw a sword and will choose to leave before Anora can even order his execution. Why would someone who is in love with him want him to die then?

I just can't find any reason why the Warden would want his immediate death. She just spared Loghain. Yes, I know being a Warden can be considered a death sentence, but if it's a death sentence, why killing Alistair now rather than let him leave? He'll die eventually anyway.

I'm on the same side of the fence as you are. There is no reasoning that could explain why someone that loves him would execute him. No matter what.

[nos_astra]

I have an idea that might work for me but still it's not an example of mental health.

A city elf could grow possessive or obsessive about her love. After all she's been through it's amazing that she would fall for a human. When he reveals his royal blood she decides to oppose Eamon and keep Alistair for herself. He's not a noble, can't be. A human noble couldn't be her lover, so he's not noble. She follows his way of thinking - he's the son of a maid and his father happened to be king.

She sides with Anora, no big deal to her. But when she's trying to spare Loghain, Alistair will speak up and demand Loghain's execution even if it means he has to be the King. She's trapped: Let him be King and lose him, let him go and lose him, have him killed ... and join him soon. Eventually she will kill the Archdemon - without the DR backup.

As I said, not exactly rational ... or sane.

Edit: I don't know if unhardened Alistair will even demand to be King in this scenario but if he does the "Where do you see this going?" hould be a perfect hook to get her started even before the Landsmeet. "What about duty? What about honor?" ... so yeah, could work.

Modifié par klarabella, 19 avril 2010 - 09:19 .

[Xandurpein]

I suppose it depends on how you define 'in love'. Do you mean a woman who truly loves Alistair, or just someone who is pursuing the romance. If you mean someone truly in love with him it would probably take a... disturbing woman to have him executed. But it could be just someone who is toying with Alistairs feelings and says things to him she doesn't really mean, maybe just for fun or because of a selfish need to have someone doting on her, even if she doesn't love him back. It is perfectly possible to roleplay saying things your character doesn't actually mean.