182 réponses à ce sujet

[Xandurpein]

Tokion wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

I had a city elf that executed Alistair. They were still in a relationship, but she didn't appreciate how he reacted in the Alienage. There was the whole "we aren't going to get mugged" comment, with the total surprise that she had been engaged and then meeting her father after Caladrius (Wynne lost approval with my PC on that one as well. No, Wynne, I'm going to spare the S O B who kidnapped and imprisoned my father and now wants to use his life force for some blood magic ritual).

She had asked about his childhood, his upbringing, his likes and dislikes and suddenly she was aware that he had never asked anything about her. The blinders fell off. When he pitched about sparing Loghain she found herself agreeing with Anora. It broke her heart, but she wound up consenting to Alistair's execution. Alistair was, in her opinion, acting like a child. A childish man with a claim to the throne would be a threat to the unity of the kingdom as long as he lived.

She wound up refusing Morrigan's Dark Ritual and killed the arch demon herself out of grief and self loathing. She felt the worst punishment she could give to Loghain was to let him live with himself and with Alistair dead, she didn't want to live.

Very much like a Greek tragedy.

A great story! But the moment was ruined when she was mysteriously brought back to life in awakening......

I am beginning to see why fans are complaining about the connection between the 2 games.

Just because the devs decided to allow you to bring back a PC who did UC if you absolutly want to, doesn't mean you have to do that in Awakening. It's up to you if that makes you feel disconnected by doing so or not. Just play the Orlesian Warden if you want the char from Orgins to stay dead.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 19 avril 2010 - 07:06 .

[errant_knight]

LadyDamodred wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Mlai00 wrote...

I wuv trolling. 8-D

Please don't troll my thread. It's not appreciated. The topic is how the female PC justifies killing Alistair when in a relationship. In your scenario, it would be pique, which hardly seems like a resonable justification for execution.

Moving on, a number of people have suggested that their PC loves Alistair, but is able to put those feelings aside 'for the good of Fereldan (in that character's view). My question, do you really think that's love or some other emotion (or lack of ability to truly connect) that they're feeliing but calling/believing to be love? My personal feeling is that it's impossible to really love someone and call for their death. Unless you find them in the garage dismembering the children and the family pet, in which case one would surely stop loving them, and not longer be feeling such when killing them. So my argument holds, love would have to cease before execution.

My scenario involved the PC refusing to admit it was love, choosing to believe it was something else, which is quite possible to do.  People do it all the time.  They delude themselves into thinking a certain way in order to be able to cope.  The brain can protect its sanity in unusual ways and this would be one.  Eventually, however, it catches up with you, which is what would happen to that PC when the Blight was over.

Do you really think that's possible, though? I mean, you can say you're not in love, refusing to admit it to yourself, but if you actually are, would you be capable of killing that person? And the reverse, you could believe yourself to be in love, thinking of it as such, telling the person that you love them, but if you can kill them, doesn't that demonstrate that it's untrue?

[LadyDamodred]

errant_knight wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
My scenario involved the PC refusing to admit it was love, choosing to believe it was something else, which is quite possible to do.  People do it all the time.  They delude themselves into thinking a certain way in order to be able to cope.  The brain can protect its sanity in unusual ways and this would be one.  Eventually, however, it catches up with you, which is what would happen to that PC when the Blight was over.

Do you really think that's possible, though? I mean, you can say you're not in love, refusing to admit it to yourself, but if you actually are, would you be capable of killing that person? And the reverse, you could believe yourself to be in love, thinking of it as such, telling the person that you love them, but if you can kill them, doesn't that demonstrate that it's untrue?

Yes, it is very possible.  The mind is a very tricky thing.  If you believe something hard enough, it becomes true for you.  Or you can suppress it for a long time.  It's not you saying outloud you're not in love.  It's your mind desperately trying to protect itself, and when it's doing that, it is capable of remarkable things.  Especially when you're under loads of other stress and emotions.  Eventually, though, it will come crashing down.  You might have a psychotic break or a nervous breakdown.  I think the reverse is harder, pretending to feel something you don't than suppressing something you do feel.

In this case, the PC really does love him, but cannot admit it to herself because she is scared, thinks it weakens her, doesn't want to be hurt again.  So she forces the emotion away.  Maybe Alistair notices her becoming distant and the harder he tries to bridge it, the more distant she becomes.  So when the times comes, she "proves" that she doesn't love him by being willing to have him executed.  She doesn't *really* love him, so it won't hurt that bad, right?  And while she has something to distract her mind, it doesn't.  When there are no distractions left, however...

[sylvanaerie]

errant_knight wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Mlai00 wrote...

I wuv trolling. 8-D

Please don't troll my thread. It's not appreciated. The topic is how the female PC justifies killing Alistair when in a relationship. In your scenario, it would be pique, which hardly seems like a resonable justification for execution.

Moving on, a number of people have suggested that their PC loves Alistair, but is able to put those feelings aside 'for the good of Fereldan (in that character's view). My question, do you really think that's love or some other emotion (or lack of ability to truly connect) that they're feeliing but calling/believing to be love? My personal feeling is that it's impossible to really love someone and call for their death. Unless you find them in the garage dismembering the children and the family pet, in which case one would surely stop loving them, and not longer be feeling such when killing them. So my argument holds, love would have to cease before execution.

My scenario involved the PC refusing to admit it was love, choosing to believe it was something else, which is quite possible to do.  People do it all the time.  They delude themselves into thinking a certain way in order to be able to cope.  The brain can protect its sanity in unusual ways and this would be one.  Eventually, however, it catches up with you, which is what would happen to that PC when the Blight was over.

Do you really think that's possible, though? I mean, you can say you're not in love, refusing to admit it to yourself, but if you actually are, would you be capable of killing that person? And the reverse, you could believe yourself to be in love, thinking of it as such, telling the person that you love them, but if you can kill them, doesn't that demonstrate that it's untrue?

Did the princess direct her lover to the Lady or the Tiger...?  Interesting discussion here.

[Hechicera]

errant_knight wrote...

Just read the bits between the Dukes of Hazard reference (yay!) and the trolling.... Very helpful folks! It's possible for any of the origins to feel the need to call for Alistair's death, but for a character to do so when engaged in a romance, I think they have to be one or some of:
-duplicitous, stringing him along for her own reasons, perhaps even vindictive.
-just having a fling, and cold hearted/ruthless enough that she can keep that completely separate from her political choices.
-mentally unstable, able to overreact to the point that a demonstration of flaws, or a disagreement becomes worthy of execution. (it could be argued that #2 is also an example of poor mental health as that kind of lack of empathy is a tad on the psychopathic side)

My one female Cousland begs to differ with that.   So would Maric (in the book).   I would consider it more of a conditioned response in this case, not requiring insanity.  The Grey Warden training, mantra and history isn't going to make them more empathetic either.

My male Cousland was just plain cold-hearted and calculating, but romance was not an issue there.

I've only killed him twice .. so far :innocent:

[Hechicera]

(double posts are evil and insane though)

Modifié par Hechicera, 19 avril 2010 - 08:55 .

[errant_knight]

I guess I just don't believe that's possible, myself. To my mind, you would have to doubt them to the point of no longer loving them, or the reason for killing them would have to be much more compelling than the mere possibility of a rebellion in their name. Otherwise, I can't see it as actually being love. Heck, I'd need a better reason than that to kill a one night stand.

[Zaros]

errant_knight wrote...

Mlai00 wrote...

I wuv trolling. 8-D

Please don't troll my thread. It's not appreciated. The topic is how the female PC justifies killing Alistair when in a relationship. In your scenario, it would be pique, which hardly seems like a resonable justification for execution.

Moving on, a number of people have suggested that their PC loves Alistair, but is able to put those feelings aside 'for the good of Fereldan (in that character's view). My question, do you really think that's love or some other emotion (or lack of ability to truly connect) that they're feeliing but calling/believing to be love? My personal feeling is that it's impossible to really love someone and call for their death. Unless you find them in the garage dismembering the children and the family pet, in which case one would surely stop loving them, and not longer be feeling such when killing them. So my argument holds, love would have to cease before execution.

I'm a guy, and I couldn't execute him (though not for Mlai00's reasons).

He was raised by the chantry(not to mention the fact that he was also raised in a noble household
for  a while as well), and as such, had a VERY sheltered childhood (which also explains his unnessecery jokes in the Alienage and Dust Town). Not only that, but as a human noble, I sure as hell wouldn't have spared Howe if he primised to become a Grey Warden, even if it meant giving up my rights as a noble and having to leave the people who I thought were my closest friends. By the end of the battle at Ostagar, Alistair had lost the closest thing he had to a father to Loghain, and hearing his bestfriend/lover take the side of one who was responsible for the deaths of thousands of men hurt him deeply.

Modifié par Zaros, 19 avril 2010 - 09:52 .

[LadyDamodred]

errant_knight wrote...

I guess I just don't believe that's possible, myself. To my mind, you would have to doubt them to the point of no longer loving them, or the reason for killing them would have to be much more compelling than the mere possibility of a rebellion in their name. Otherwise, I can't see it as actually being love. Heck, I'd need a better reason than that to kill a one night stand.

Do you want me to write a quick thing to show you how it would go down in her mind?  I don't know if I can explain without showing the thought patterns that would take place in her head.

[errant_knight]

Zaros wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Mlai00 wrote...

I wuv trolling. 8-D

Please don't troll my thread. It's not appreciated. The topic is how the female PC justifies killing Alistair when in a relationship. In your scenario, it would be pique, which hardly seems like a resonable justification for execution.

Moving on, a number of people have suggested that their PC loves Alistair, but is able to put those feelings aside 'for the good of Fereldan (in that character's view). My question, do you really think that's love or some other emotion (or lack of ability to truly connect) that they're feeliing but calling/believing to be love? My personal feeling is that it's impossible to really love someone and call for their death. Unless you find them in the garage dismembering the children and the family pet, in which case one would surely stop loving them, and not longer be feeling such when killing them. So my argument holds, love would have to cease before execution.

I'm a guy, and I couldn't execute him (though not for Mlai00's reasons).

He was raised by the chantry(not to mention the fact that he was also raised in a noble household
for  a while as well), and as such, had a VERY sheltered childhood (which also explains his unnessecery jokes in the Alienage and Dust Town). Not only that, but as a human noble, I sure as hell wouldn't have spared Howe if he primised to become a Grey Warden, even if it meant giving up my rights as a noble and having to leave the people who I thought were my closest friends. By the end of the battle at Ostagar, Alistair had lost the closest thing he had to a father to Loghain, and hearing his bestfriend/lover take the side of one who was responsible for the deaths of thousands of men hurt him deeply.

Yep, that's my take on it, too, which is why I had to enlist the aid of those who were able to create a character who could both kill him, and have been in a romance with him. I can't make a PC that would kill him, male or female. I can't even make one who wants to spare Loghain.

Still, and regardless of some of the excellent scenarios provided, I can''t get my head around a character who's in love with him killing Alistair. The stakes just don't seem high enough--at that moment--for it to be possible, unless they're a bit unhinged. That doesn't mean it isn't possible, just that I can't write about it because I don't get it.

LadyDamodred wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

I guess I just don't believe that's possible, myself. To my mind, you would have to doubt them to the point of no longer loving them, or the reason for killing them would have to be much more compelling than the mere possibility of a rebellion in their name. Otherwise, I can't see it as actually being love. Heck, I'd need a better reason than that to kill a one night stand.

Do you want me to write a quick thing to show you how it would go down in her mind?  I don't know if I can explain without showing the thought patterns that would take place in her head.

Sure! That would be very interesting. I'm not sure it will make a difference in believing the stakes to be high enought (a personal judgement call, after all), but it would certainly be interesting and no doubt helpful.

Modifié par errant_knight, 19 avril 2010 - 10:11 .

[LadyDamodred]

errant_knight wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
Do you want me to write a quick thing to show you how it would go down in her mind?  I don't know if I can explain without showing the thought patterns that would take place in her head.

Sure! That would be very interesting. I'm not sure it will make a difference in believing the stakes to be high enought (a personal judgement call, after all), but it would certainly be interesting and no doubt helpful.

Alrighty.  I'm gonna go for a walk, and I shall ponder while I walk and listen to Linkin Park.  If you want, pm me your email addy and I shall write something up tonight and send it.  I need a break from the chapter in my fic that I'm struggling with anyway.

[errant_knight]

LadyDamodred wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
Do you want me to write a quick thing to show you how it would go down in her mind?  I don't know if I can explain without showing the thought patterns that would take place in her head.

Sure! That would be very interesting. I'm not sure it will make a difference in believing the stakes to be high enought (a personal judgement call, after all), but it would certainly be interesting and no doubt helpful.

Alrighty.  I'm gonna go for a walk, and I shall ponder while I walk and listen to Linkin Park.  If you want, pm me your email addy and I shall write something up tonight and send it.  I need a break from the chapter in my fic that I'm struggling with anyway.

I'll do that right now, thanks. It occurs to me that I don't actually have to find her reasoning correct within the context of my story, I just have to believe that she could believe it.

[Hechicera]

You, yes. Me, I hope so too! My character however, I can see it as consistent and rational within her world view, so not insane in the least.



Though the point that the shock of Alistair's hissy fit would act as an instant "fall out of love" card, yes true. It would all hit her at once. Killing Alistair to prevent a rebellion in his name goes with the sacrifice of the few for the greater good shtick of the Grey Wardens. The blight is on, a loose cannon Alistair could cause the death of millions! Kill her love, save millions, blame self, hate self. Hmm.



The killing Alistair for the greater good HNF is tragic and more complex than insanity, and she blames herself not him. However I prefer more complexity than "insanity" when things go horribly awry. I guess it is knowing and working with plenty of mentally ill in my life. Sure, when evil, they are sensationally so, but that isn't common. Sometimes, also, people who believe themselves to be sane and try to act moral do horrific things based on world view or sometimes ignorance. I find that more interesting. With a true sociopath, you have to ask them how they got as far as they did before someone stopping them. For me, that calls for more plot twists and metagaming.



Though at that point it is personal preference. Right now I'm rereading Science Fiction authors like Octavia Butler, yet I am clueless when it comes to TV like Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I was a long time paper&dice D&D DM. As a heavy reader, I like setting up more complex (novel style) motivations. If you prefer the motivations for your story to have the HNF that kills Alistair be insane, then that is how she should be. You have to understand your character and her motivations. I can understand my HNF, and feel very sad for her, and Alistair.

[errant_knight]

Hechicera wrote...

You, yes. Me, I hope so too! My character however, I can see it as consistent and rational within her world view, so not insane in the least.

Though the point that the shock of Alistair's hissy fit would act as an instant "fall out of love" card, yes true. It would all hit her at once. Killing Alistair to prevent a rebellion in his name goes with the sacrifice of the few for the greater good shtick of the Grey Wardens. The blight is on, a loose cannon Alistair could cause the death of millions! Kill her love, save millions, blame self, hate self. Hmm.

The killing Alistair for the greater good HNF is tragic and more complex than insanity, and she blames herself not him. However I prefer more complexity than "insanity" when things go horribly awry. I guess it is knowing and working with plenty of mentally ill in my life. Sure, when evil, they are sensationally so, but that isn't common. Sometimes, also, people who believe themselves to be sane and try to act moral do horrific things based on world view or sometimes ignorance. I find that more interesting. With a true sociopath, you have to ask them how they got as far as they did before someone stopping them. For me, that calls for more plot twists and metagaming.

Though at that point it is personal preference. Right now I'm rereading Science Fiction authors like Octavia Butler, yet I am clueless when it comes to TV like Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I was a long time paper&dice D&D DM. As a heavy reader, I like setting up more complex (novel style) motivations. If you prefer the motivations for your story to have the HNF that kills Alistair be insane, then that is how she should be. You have to understand your character and her motivations. I can understand my HNF, and feel very sad for her, and Alistair.

Heh, I'm not sure how far along the wacky scale she'll end up. I can't really say until she starts talking to the other characters and I see their reaction. Whatever the case, she's not going to be foaming at the mouth, she'll believe herself perfectly correct and justified, and still have the leadership qualities and charisma that put her in charge of the party in the first place. At least that's what I'll be trying for. Her exact state of mind and feelings for Alistair might not even end up being mentioned, but I have to know what I think they are to write her.

[LadyDamodred]

I would think you should mention them. It might be very confusing to the reader if you don't.



*is just about to set virtual pen to virtual paper*

[errant_knight]

LadyDamodred wrote...

I would think you should mention them. It might be very confusing to the reader if you don't.

*is just about to set virtual pen to virtual paper*

Well, you can say lots of thing without actually saying them, and sometimes thats better. I won't know how that will pan out until I get there.

[LadyDamodred]

Well, I meant they should be mentioned in some fashion. Internal dialogues, behavior, etc... Just something so the reader doesn't get lost and can follow.



I should have something within the hour. It's not as polished as I'd like, but should suffice to get across how she thinks/feels.

[errant_knight]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Well, I meant they should be mentioned in some fashion. Internal dialogues, behavior, etc... Just something so the reader doesn't get lost and can follow.

I should have something within the hour. It's not as polished as I'd like, but should suffice to get across how she thinks/feels.

Heh, it's not my first time at this rodeo. Well, Dragon Age, yes, but not writing.
Thanks again, for your insight!

[Daneres]

I've always romanced Alistair as my girls but I don't find him fit to rule either, and I don't really like the personality of King Alistair. He's just not...Alistair. I've never had him executed before but I'm starting to see the big picture of late in regard to the end of the game. I'm starting to think that the best ending is to spare Loghain, gain his army for the final battle, leave Anora on the throne (because she seems to be doing a good job), refuse Morrigan's ritual, and let Loghain defeat the Archdemon. This way, your character still lives, the kingdom has a competent ruler, Morrigan does NOT get her demon child with the soul of ancient God (which I truly believe is going to be BAD for the world), and Loghain pays for his crimes in the end by dying in the fight against the Archdemon. I haven't decided whether or not I should let Alistair live in the end (unless he's married to Anora or the king himself) because I have this image of him and Morrigan uniting to seek vengeance on my character in the future for refusing to give them both what they wanted. I think I might rather prefer Alistair dead so that at least one threat is taken care of for the future.

[Daneres]

LadyDamodred wrote...

You know, errant_knight, I hate you b/c now that I've thought about it, I know why one of my characters would have had him executed.

HNF - Grew up having duty/for the good of Ferelden pounded into her. Taught to be very practical and logical. During the course of the game, she tried to be as fair and even-handed as she could be while still holding to those traits. Entered into a relationship with Alistair because she felt he was the only one who could really understand what was going on like she did. She did not intend to fall in love, and when she started to suspect she was, she denied it in her head. Told herself it wasn't love b/c that would be a weakness she couldn't afford, not now.

Landsmeet comes. The practicality and logic dictates that she leave the compentent ruler for the last 5 years on the throne, and Alistair doesn't want it anyway. She lets Loghain live b/c he is Ferelden's greatest general and she thinks it would be a waste to just throw that out. When Anora calls for Alistair's execution, she has a crisis of conscience. She was not planning on doing this, b/c it didn't occur to her. She knows, logically, leaving him alive is a poor move since others have proven to willing to use him (Eamon) and she thinks others will do the same in the future. She's still in denial about being in love with him, and ignores the desperate little voice in her head begging her not to do this. She ignores it and let's Anora execute Alistair. After that, events move so quickly she doesn't have time to stop and think about what she's done.

She does not take th DR, for two reasons. 1) Loghain does need to pay for his crimes 2) She thinks the risk is too high. So Loghain dies killing the AD. After the Blight is defeated, however, she does have time to think about what she did. She comes to realize she made a morrible, horrible mistake; that she actually did love Alistair and she cannot undo what she has done. She slowly becomes consumed with guilt and remorse until it becomes unbearable. She withdraws from all public life, unable to handle it and goes to the Deep Roads.

lol I wish I would have read a little further down and saw this before I wrote my own thing - you summed up everything I just wrote: and a great deal better too.

[Daneres]

errant_knight wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

You know, errant_knight, I hate you b/c now that I've thought about it, I know why one of my characters would have had him executed.

HNF - Grew up having duty/for the good of Ferelden pounded into her. Taught to be very practical and logical. During the course of the game, she tried to be as fair and even-handed as she could be while still holding to those traits. Entered into a relationship with Alistair because she felt he was the only one who could really understand what was going on like she did. She did not intend to fall in love, and when she started to suspect she was, she denied it in her head. Told herself it wasn't love b/c that would be a weakness she couldn't afford, not now.

Landsmeet comes. The practicality and logic dictates that she leave the compentent ruler for the last 5 years on the throne, and Alistair doesn't want it anyway. She lets Loghain live b/c he is Ferelden's greatest general and she thinks it would be a waste to just throw that out. When Anora calls for Alistair's execution, she has a crisis of conscience. She was not planning on doing this, b/c it didn't occur to her. She knows, logically, leaving him alive is a poor move since others have proven to willing to use him (Eamon) and she thinks others will do the same in the future. She's still in denial about being in love with him, and ignores the desperate little voice in her head begging her not to do this. She ignores it and let's Anora execute Alistair. After that, events move so quickly she doesn't have time to stop and think about what she's done.

She does not take th DR, for two reasons. 1) Loghain does need to pay for his crimes 2) She thinks the risk is too high. So Loghain dies killing the AD. After the Blight is defeated, however, she does have time to think about what she did. She comes to realize she made a morrible, horrible mistake; that she actually did love Alistair and she cannot undo what she has done. She slowly becomes consumed with guilt and remorse until it becomes unbearable. She withdraws from all public life, unable to handle it and goes to the Deep Roads.

The Couslands are royalists and sworn to Calenhad's line. How does she reconcile this with the choice of a ruler of common blood?

Myself, personally, I've never played the game with much love for the royal family. My characters aren't here to ensure the continuation of the Theirin reign or their bloodline (I don't think Maric, Cailan, or Alistair have done, or would do, a good job), my character is here to kill the Darkspawn and stop the Blight, to save all of Ferelden, all of it's people, not just the royal family. In real life I have no care for royalty or nobility, and the game is about stopping monsters who threaten everyone - including other countries. I don't see why saving royalty and nobility is considered so much more important than the common person; they're the ones who really build and make a country, the royals and nobles just take credit for it.

[Daneres]

Valentia X wrote...

I've never done it- My dislike of Loghain is enough that I could absolutely hate Alistair, and still I'd kick the ******'s head in given half the chance.


The only situation I could see this being doable in, in my eyes, is either with someone who pretty much stands against everything Alistair is for, or someone who really espouses the Grey Warden tradition. My main PC is really bad at being a Grey Warden. I mean, she kicked the Archdemon's arse and managed to summon an army from a war torn land, but she's not in line with the 'whatever it takes' philosophy. Or rather, there seem to be two branches of Grey Warden thought. The Blight must be stopped. It's a war. My PC, Alistair, and some GWs are of the mind that the GW must bear the bloodprice of stopping the Blight. The other is that we must win at any cost. The Warden who believes in the second branch could feasibly get rid of Alistair if they were concerned that he was that much of a threat.

I don't particularly care for the Grey Warden philosophy. Give up everything and everyone you ever knew and devote yourself to an order who is at everyone's beckon call whenever they have a problem, being told that you can no longer have any kind of life of your choosing, being poisoned and tainted forever, with your life cut in half because of that taint. Constantly having to abandon your loved ones (if you do end up having a family of some sort - going by the few Grey Wardens in Awakening here) to do your "duty" because it comes first. Especially when it wasn't a "duty" that you wanted in the first place (going by Dalish Elf origin and origins where you're conscripted against your will now). I just think its wrong. It's almost like...being sent to prison without being a criminal. I will honestly admit that when playing Awakening I recruited everyone I could into the Grey Wardens because I wanted someone else to feel my pain. lol Even Alistair - if you make him king - gets to leave the Wardens behind and have some sort of life and family. How fair is that! Especially when he was one before you. It's not right that he got to leave and my character was still stuck with it because he wasn't the king. Even if you marry Alistair as a female and become queen you still have to be a Warden. Am I the only one who thinks this isn't right? Your girl's own husband sends her off to face death and destruction while he sits in the safety of the castle. Wrong, wrong, wrong. (shaking head)

[Daneres]

relhart wrote...

Selfishness is my own personal definition of evil. Everything else is relative. Given both AListairs nature and experience, I don't see any reason to put him on the throne (or to keep him alive, once he breaks down emotionally) except selfish ones. Therefore from my viewpoint that's the "evil" option.
You could make a character that is more focused on the bigger picture, but isn't above moment by moment emotional attachments, without her being necessarily evil

Damn. lol You make a good point. I agree with you. Lately I've decided that taking Morrigan's offer and doing the Dark Ritual is most definitely a selfish motivation: you're either trying to save your own character's life (which isn't my motivation, mind you) or your lover or best friend's life (this is why I do it, to save Alistair, bleh) and in doing so you allow the coming of - again, I firmly believe this - a great evil in the world. Morrigan's child, I just do not believe can be good (and before people start barking, lol, I do not believe in the nurture versus nature thing, and yes, I believe this child will either be a great evil or bring a great evil back into being). lol My latest playthrough has been riddled with the clarity of saving my character or Alistair as being bad, it's getting difficult to continue with it with all this righeous crap in my head.

[Sarah1281]

You can do the DR for an unselfish reason, I think, although most people would think of the 'I don't want to die and neither does Alistair' motivation first. If Morrigan's child is attracting the soul of the Old God away from the GWs who themselves were attracting it away from the nearest darkspawn, would the Archdemon even need to be killed by a GW? If Riordan/Warden/Alistair-or-Loghain all die then all of Ferelden wouldn't be doomed and if someone got in a lucky shot before the Wardens could get to the Archdemon the attack on Denerim wuld be a lot less destructive and more lives could have been saved.

Still, that's the kind of thing that would tend to occur to people after realizing that they could live.

[Daneres]

Lowenhart wrote...

Play through a couple of times and executing Aliaster comes more or less natural, at least for me as its get to a point where i grow weary of his childishness, his lack of sense of responsibility and his humor gets tidious after a while.

But then again that is just me, but i could never consider putting him in a throne after getting to really know him. Plus his a bit of a hypocrit just to add to things.

EDIT: Duty/law only really apply to him forward people he doesnt like rest seem to matter less, which again adds to the point that his a hypocrit.

lol Again, I wish I would have read ahead a little more. Sorry, everyone, haven't been on the Net in over a week. I hear what you're saying and I agree with you. You love Alistair to pieces when you play through a couple of times but then you start to realize the he is quite childish and, yes, a little hypocritical. I will admit that I didn't really see all of the flaws in his character's personality until after I played Awakening. When you meet Anders and Nathaniel you just realized that their characters are stronger characters, both as people and as Grey Wardens in the end. At least the way I played them.