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[zchen]

That whole landsmeet part is very poorly done. It reeks of *we don't know how else to show your decision matters, so we'll make your loyal friend just quit and act like a childish boy with no balls*



Was a fight against Alistair to knock some sense into him too much to ask? Was having more dialogue options for convincing or otherwise too much to ask? was having your other party members interject or have reactions to what went on too much to ask? was having a Hardened Alistair swooping into (swooping is good~) the final battle to save your butt because he still cares for you too much to ask?



Some times I ask myself if I care too much about this part of the game, but I decided that Bioware cared too little.

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Aisynia wrote...
In love enough to abandon her forever if she chooses to show mercy to Loghain.

He hates Loghain more than he loves the Warden. Not the kind of guy I look for, certainly.

I agree with you.
It's not only leaving her. It's leaving her to fight the blight on her own, instead of standing with her and protecting her. Because he thinks she somehow betrayed him (All I see is him betraying her).

Just because you cannot see it does not mean it doesn't happen. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Aisynia wrote...
In love enough to abandon her forever if she chooses to show mercy to Loghain.

He hates Loghain more than he loves the Warden. Not the kind of guy I look for, certainly.

I agree with you.
It's not only leaving her. It's leaving her to fight the blight on her own, instead of standing with her and protecting her. Because he thinks she somehow betrayed him (All I see is him betraying her).

Just because you cannot see it does not mean it doesn't happen. 

Matter of perception I guess.
But if, for the sake of argument, the woman I love decided to spare my parent's killer to use him to save our nation, I would not think she is betraying me. I might be pissed. Very pissed if she didn't tell me this before. (extremily pissed if she thinks she is in charge).
But I would never contemplate leaving her and leaving my country.

[sleepingbelow]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Matter of perception I guess.
But if, for the sake of argument, the woman I love decided to spare my parent's killer to use him to save our nation, I would not think she is betraying me. I might be pissed. Very pissed if she didn't tell me this before. (extremily pissed if she thinks she is in charge).
But I would never contemplate leaving her and leaving my country.

Obviously because somebody took your "Hardened" dialogue options.

[KnightofPhoenix]

sleepingbelow wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Matter of perception I guess.
But if, for the sake of argument, the woman I love decided to spare my parent's killer to use him to save our nation, I would not think she is betraying me. I might be pissed. Very pissed if she didn't tell me this before. (extremily pissed if she thinks she is in charge).
But I would never contemplate leaving her and leaving my country.

Obviously because somebody took your "Hardened" dialogue options.

My mom, when I was twelve. I will never forget what she told me

[Aisynia]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

I think Eamon is well aware that my PC queen will GUT him if he tries that sh*t. And I think Alistiar listens to his pc queen far more than Eamon. And that he would have even less luck with getting Alistair to find a new wife or cheat on his wife considering how deeply in loe alistair is with the pc.

In love enough to abandon her forever if she chooses to show mercy to Loghain.

He hates Loghain more than he loves the Warden. Not the kind of guy I look for, certainly.

Well, he leaves after I stab him in the back, yes.  I can't really blame the guy.  If my pc does that, especially if she loves him, she doesn't really deserve him.  As I've pointed out in other places, my pc would have done the same thing if Alistair had done that with Howe.

Bull****. Love is love, period. Even if he hates what she did, he could at least talk about it with the woman he claims to love o dearly. Doesn't occur to him for half a second she might not understand the full implications of what sparing him means to Alistair. You can't go back after the talk with Riordan and explain why you need more Grey Wardens either. There's no way to rectify it.

If he is truly in love, and she has done nothing but good the entire time, if she does something he hates, he should at least give her the chance to explain herself, or talk it through as a couple before ABANDONING her. That is petty and childish. It's not like he couldn't explain himself you know, I mean, Loghain is stil there, you can still kill him if he realllly demands it, I mean nothing is preventing that.

Stupid immature brat.

Okay, ranting, sorry. Just that.. in my relationship.. we've had occasion to.. we have what we call "unintentional inconsideration". A complete lack of respect or consideration for one another that is really offensive, but isn't intentional. We would never hurt each other on purpose, and being in LOVE, we FORGIVE. That's what love does. If Alistair can abandon that love based on ONE bad call because of HATRED, then he has no place ever EVER saying he loves her. Period.

[Daneres]

Aisynia wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

I think Eamon is well aware that my PC queen will GUT him if he tries that sh*t. And I think Alistiar listens to his pc queen far more than Eamon. And that he would have even less luck with getting Alistair to find a new wife or cheat on his wife considering how deeply in loe alistair is with the pc.

In love enough to abandon her forever if she chooses to show mercy to Loghain.

He hates Loghain more than he loves the Warden. Not the kind of guy I look for, certainly.

Well, he leaves after I stab him in the back, yes.  I can't really blame the guy.  If my pc does that, especially if she loves him, she doesn't really deserve him.  As I've pointed out in other places, my pc would have done the same thing if Alistair had done that with Howe.

Bull****. Love is love, period. Even if he hates what she did, he could at least talk about it with the woman he claims to love o dearly. Doesn't occur to him for half a second she might not understand the full implications of what sparing him means to Alistair. You can't go back after the talk with Riordan and explain why you need more Grey Wardens either. There's no way to rectify it.

If he is truly in love, and she has done nothing but good the entire time, if she does something he hates, he should at least give her the chance to explain herself, or talk it through as a couple before ABANDONING her. That is petty and childish. It's not like he couldn't explain himself you know, I mean, Loghain is stil there, you can still kill him if he realllly demands it, I mean nothing is preventing that.

Stupid immature brat.

Okay, ranting, sorry. Just that.. in my relationship.. we've had occasion to.. we have what we call "unintentional inconsideration". A complete lack of respect or consideration for one another that is really offensive, but isn't intentional. We would never hurt each other on purpose, and being in LOVE, we FORGIVE. That's what love does. If Alistair can abandon that love based on ONE bad call because of HATRED, then he has no place ever EVER saying he loves her. Period.

lol Ranting is good. You should see my rantings in the Alistair/Morrigan/Sexy Time thread (hate that story twist, hate it, hate it, hate it - unless I play a guy, that is, lol). I've been called crazy more than once and I did call Alistair a foolish boy.  I agree, though, he shouldn't abadon your girl like that because she did one thing that he didn't like throughout the game. I understand why he's upset but to pretty much declare his hatred of you and then leave, and not even help with the Blight is a little over the top. Even if he hates her now he does still have a duty as a Grey Warden. Alas.

[errant_knight]

Holy crap. Did this thread ever get off topic. Enough! This is not an anti-Alistair hate thread. It isn't even about Alistair Take it outside!  And the rest of you, please don't respond to the off-topic posts. Let's get this back on track. I shall restate the topic:

"I need some input on this from people who have played such a character for something I may write.

How did you roleplay a character who has Alistair executed while in a romance, as in what were her motivations and end goals. Did she actually care about the blight or Fereldan, or was she driven by something else? Which Origin was she? Did she have any remorse or was it all part of the plan? Did she choose the dark ritual, and if not, what did she do?"

Modifié par errant_knight, 20 avril 2010 - 09:04 .

[sleepingbelow]

 @ Aisynia.  It sounds like this story really hit you at a precise moment you were very vulnerable.  Alistair is written to be flawed though with reasons, and that particular story outcome is intended to be a romantic tragedy.  I can totally understand how it would upset you lots because it sounds like one of your greatest fears is being shut out by a loved one when you need communication and validation.  A basic, primal, human need.

In that particular permutation of events, Dragon Age is a romantic tragedy.  I think this thread has been discussing why we should empathize with Alistair's hamartia, and to try to understand why he has it.  I'm just saying this so it is clear that when I support Alistair, it is that I am empathizing with him as a character though the situation is obviously crappy.
It is reasonable to see how his motivations, which some of us have been rationalizing, are small potatoes to you in the face of how things play out.   But I think the intent of the tragedy was more for catharsis than frustration.  The relationship in the story fails so our that real ones do not.  

If the characters in Romeo & Juliet had acted more rationally, if Romeo had told Tybalt or Mercutio about his secret marriage, if Juliet had gotten confirmation from that the messenger that Romeo was informed, we would have had a very different play.  

Things were meant to play out crappy in pretty much any ending of Dragon Age so we could take something out of it.  Loghain's late realization that he's been tragically mistaken about Grey Wardens, Alistair's inability to forgive, the creepy dark ritual.  Something about everybody's ending is likely ****.  One of these things has to end in the gutter.

I really, really hope this hasn't come off as patronizing.  What I'm hoping is that eventually Alistair being a brat doesn't make you feel angry or threatened.  That you can sympathize with him out of pity.  Alistair and the Warden's love falls apart so that we can see what heartbreak looks like.  Know it.  Taste it.  Hate it.  Pity it..  Romantic tragedies make our real relationships stronger.

It sounds like yours is in a strong place right with your girlfriend.  But if there was a dark patch, I see how this can be more upsetting than moving.  It is just my wish that when the rest of us are like, "Rah rah, Alistair!"  you eventually empathize and pity his human fallibility rather than hating him for it.  When beloved characters suffer tragedy self-inflicted, we must cling tighter to our real loved ones.

EDIT- Sorry errant for continuing the off-topicness.  I was under the impression that you had gotten everything you needed from the thread.

Modifié par sleepingbelow, 20 avril 2010 - 09:05 .

[Aisynia]

Well the thing is that it isn't really discussed afterwards, either with Alistair, or with someone like Wynne...

Wynne is one character that I wish I had a (Hug Wynne) dialogue option. She would make a great shoulder

It's that it is dropped so suddenly that annoys me.

As for executing Alistair while in love with him.. see I would never do such a thing, and the OP is having a hard time sorting out why she would ever do such a thing too.. that doesn't mean someone else might not. Every human being is an individual, an island. We all see things differently, feel things differently.

I have a condition by which I feel emotions on a daily basis that are significantly more intense and powerful than most people will feel in their lives. It's just how I live, it's the only existence I know. It can hamper me, but at the same time, I see it as a gift to be able to feel so deeply. I admit, sometimes I catch myself looking at others how some mages look at the Tranquil.. they are missing out on so much, they are so empty..

So to me, it's not difficult to imagine that the scale of love I feel is not the same as the scale of love someone else feels. Someone might feel it much less intensely.. it's love.. true love, but it may not overpower their logical mind. Some people of certain upbringings (I think Dwarf Nobles are actually prime for this considering how damned brutal Dwarf politics and family structures are) are more likely to let that logic and that political center in their brains override their personal feelings. They will do what is best for the nation, and not for themselves. It's a very extreme form of selflessness, even the darker side of selflessness in this case, to give something up you care so much about, to even destroy it, for what you consider the greater good (even if you are wrong or your logic is flawed).

So, I can certainly see someone of a certain logical or political mindset killing their lover.. Maric even does it from what I understand.

That doesn't mean there can't be regret afterwards, even immense and unbearable regret, but we have to live with the actions we take.. or commit suicide on an archdemon.. pick your poison.

People and characters alike make mistakes, tragic mistakes, it's their nature.. and rarely do they know they are making one while it's happening. For a character to never do something incredibly stupid is.. lying about human nature. I say this last part as an author and  a human being.

Modifié par Aisynia, 20 avril 2010 - 10:00 .

[errant_knight]

sleepingbelow wrote...
EDIT- Sorry errant for continuing the off-topicness.  I was under the impression that you had gotten everything you needed from the thread.

I may or may not have everything I need. It depends on if someone says something brilliant. In any case, this thread still has a specific topic, so let's stay on that. While this may be about the PC, the topic does touch on Alistair, and different PCs are going to see him different ways. That being said, in this thread discussion is about about the PC, and her feelings in the moment, not about our personal feelings.  There will be no ranting what so ever.

[Aisynia]

Are you a moderator?

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

For me killing alistar is unthinkable i rather have anora executed i hate her more then loghain.

[CalJones]

I suppose a Warden who felt betrayed by Alistair (after sparing Loghain) could feel angry enough to permit his death, or more likely, numb enough not to prevent Anora from ordering it.

[errant_knight]

Aisynia wrote...

Are you a moderator?

My thread, my topic, please respect that. You can always start your own thread to discuss anything you like.

CalJones wrote...

I suppose a Warden who felt betrayed by Alistair (after sparing Loghain) could feel angry enough to permit his death, or more likely, numb enough not to prevent Anora from ordering it.

Death for an argument is pretty harsh. Not saying it's not possible, but she'd need to have quite the temper. I can see such a woman knifing you for leaving the cap off the toothpaste.

Modifié par errant_knight, 20 avril 2010 - 10:31 .

[darkrose]

klarabella wrote...

She sides with Anora, no big deal to her. But when she's trying to spare Loghain, Alistair will speak up and demand Loghain's execution even if it means he has to be the King. She's trapped: Let him be King and lose him, let him go and lose him, have him killed ... and join him soon. Eventually she will kill the Archdemon - without the DR backup.

As I said, not exactly rational ... or sane.

My borderline sane Tabris girl simply couldn't spare Loghain, under any circumstances, because she holds him responsible for almost losing her father. Giving him a clean death was the best she was going to be able to do.

She doesn't trust Anora, and she became particularly disenchanted when Anora seemed completely clueless about why the Alienage elves were unhappy. Alistair is pretty clueless, but she believes that as king, he'd be better for her people than Anora, who essentially represents the status quo. Also, by the Landsmeet, she knows that Alistair would jump off a bridge if she told him to--and he kind of does, since she tells him, "Trust me" when she wants him to sleep with Morrigan. If Alistair is the king, she's willing to be the mistress because she can run things. Ironically, Loghain was totally right when he referred to her as "the puppeteer".

[darkrose]

Daneres wrote...
Damn. lol You make a good point. I agree with you. Lately I've decided that taking Morrigan's offer and doing the Dark Ritual is most definitely a selfish motivation: you're either trying to save your own character's life (which isn't my motivation, mind you) or your lover or best friend's life (this is why I do it, to save Alistair, bleh) and in doing so you allow the coming of - again, I firmly believe this - a great evil in the world.

My Tabris girl recognizes that taking Morrigan's offer is selfish--and she does it anyway. She feels like she's already sacrificed half of her life, her chances at the limited happiness of marrying and having children all for the sake of a country full of humans who despise her and elves who blame her for Howe's purge. For two years the only truly happy part of her life has been her relationship with Alistair, and she was willing to sacrifice even that because she thinks that putting him on the throne was the best call for her people's future. Now, when it comes down to it, she's 19 and really doesn't want to die.

What I love, though, is that no one says, "Hey, maybe it's no big deal, because Riordan will totally kill the archdemon." Everyone knows that his armor is bright red.

[darkrose]

Hechicera wrote...
And a born to rule HNF would have insisted he cheat for an heir.

My HNF will point out that it's important that everyone thinks the heir is legitimate--which means that she's going to have to find someone to father the child. Probably Teagan.

[errant_knight]

darkrose, the topic is how a female charcter in a relationship with Alistair could bring herself to execute him, the kind of person she might be, and how she could justify it/be affected emotionally. Do you have any thoughts on that?

[Vicious]

Alistair's reaction at being executed only changes based on if he is hardened or not.

If he is unhardened, he goes, "Ah well whatever. Lucky me."

If he is hardened he completely freaks out, with "I THOUGHT YOU WERE MY FRIEND! I guess I know what that's worth now..." and right before he gets escorted out, he says, "I hope you get what's coming to you!" *Shoots a glare at the PC* "ALL OF YOU!"


Back at camp, no one tells you anything, or cares really. You just get a stand-in for Alistair and some new dialogue/party banter..

Luckily in the game, as in the real world, the angry ravings of a dead man are meaningless.

Modifié par Vicious, 21 avril 2010 - 01:05 .

[errant_knight]

Vicious wrote...

Alistair's reaction at being executed only changes based on if he is hardened or not.

If he is unhardened, he goes, "Ah well whatever. Lucky me."

If he is hardened he completely freaks out, with "I THOUGHT YOU WERE MY FRIEND! I guess I know what that's worth now..." and right before he gets escorted out, he says, "I hope you get what's coming to you!" *Shoots a glare at the PC* "ALL OF YOU!"


Back at camp, no one tells you anything, or cares really. You just get a stand-in for Alistair and some new dialogue/party banter..

Luckily in the game, as in the real world, the angry ravings of a dead man are meaningless.

Ah! The 'All of you' thing is important. Not because of characterization of the PC (which is, you know, the topic , but because in my story the rantings of a dead man--because in this case, he's not dead--are important. Who do you think he means by 'all of you'? The companions?

Modifié par errant_knight, 21 avril 2010 - 01:17 .

[LadyDamodred]

I always took it to be everyone in the Landsmeet who stands for Loghain and his being carted off for execution.

[errant_knight]

LadyDamodred wrote...

I always took it to be everyone in the Landsmeet who stands for Loghain and his being carted off for execution.

Hmmm... So too general to really be of use, then. Ah, well....

[Sarah1281]

The PC, of course, Anora, Loghain (if he lives), the nobles who don't seem to care, the other companions there who don't try to stop you not stopping her, and definitely Eamon. More than anyone else it is Eamon's faut that he's even in this position. Eamon convinced him ruling would be horrible for him and then turned right around and called a Landsmeet to put him on the throne without really doing anything to counteract the damage he did to Alistair's leadership ability or even seeming to realize it's there despite plenty of evidence in the dialouge those two have together. Once the PC and Anora decide killing Alistair was a good idea Eamon was the only hope that he had and he could have conceivably stopped it. He didn't.

[KnightofPhoenix]

He sounds more pathetic when hardened, didn't notice that before. I would say the "all of you" is everyone in the landsmeet. Or it could be all of Ferelden and its people whom he was going to abandon.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 avril 2010 - 01:24 .