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[LadyDamodred]

errant_knight wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

I always took it to be everyone in the Landsmeet who stands for Loghain and his being carted off for execution.

Hmmm... So too general to really be of use, then. Ah, well....

Not really.  He says it twice.  'I hope you get what's coming to you.' which is directed at the pc, imo.  He kinda sneers it.  The All of you is said in anger towards the larger crowd,

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He sounds more pathetic when hardened, didn't notice that before. I would say the "all of you" is everyone in the landsmeet. Or it could be all of Ferelden and its people whom he was going to abandon.

He's not really abandoning it if they're having him killed. In that circumstance, he's perfectly justified to be upset as he did nothing wrong but just got screwed over by politics.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He sounds more pathetic when hardened, didn't notice that before. I would say the "all of you" is everyone in the landsmeet. Or it could be all of Ferelden and its people whom he was going to abandon.

He's not really abandoning it if they're having him killed. In that circumstance, he's perfectly justified to be upset as he did nothing wrong but just got screwed over by politics.

He says that he is leaving and that's when Anora suggests that he should be executed. His intent to abandon Ferelden was there. Had he not said so, I would have vouched to spare Alistair. 

[errant_knight]

Right. Okay this is heading back to last night's bout of 'let's make this a hate thread.' I shouldn't have inquired and backed away from trying to get the thread back on topic. So...let's get the thread back on topic.

Seriously, guys, please. If you really need to go here again, please start a new thread.

Modifié par errant_knight, 21 avril 2010 - 01:33 .

[sylvanaerie]

This is a barbarous world. Perhaps the PC thinks in some crazy way killing him is the most merciful route she can go. If he lives people (Eamon) will still try to use him for their own agendas. If he dies, she can at least feel he was hers and hers alone (selfish I know but think of the Princess in Lady and the TIger). Does she let him go and let someone else have him? or does she keep him with her always by killing him.

Okay crazy...sorry I guess it all boils down to its just insane to kill someone you love without a legitimate reason. But I suppose in a barbaric world you can do it and even find justification to do it.

[Sarah1281]

Is that a new avatar, sylvanaerie? I like it.

[sylvanaerie]

Thanks. Cmessaz sent me a bunch of nice new hair/makeup mods and I went crazy and made me a new PC. This is my rogue, Katherine Cousland

[errant_knight]

sylvanaerie wrote...

This is a barbarous world. Perhaps the PC thinks in some crazy way killing him is the most merciful route she can go. If he lives people (Eamon) will still try to use him for their own agendas. If he dies, she can at least feel he was hers and hers alone (selfish I know but think of the Princess in Lady and the TIger). Does she let him go and let someone else have him? or does she keep him with her always by killing him.
Okay crazy...sorry I guess it all boils down to its just insane to kill someone you love without a legitimate reason. But I suppose in a barbaric world you can do it and even find justification to do it.

Yes, people have led me through a number of scenarios, and to me, not necessarily to others, they always seem to be somewhere along the sliding scale of wacky. Emotionally repressed/divorced from emotion, ruthless to the point of 'OMG, is that a pile of dead kittens behind your desk?', or just that angry at Alistiar's public display of disagreement. Now, I'm not saying that she can't still be doing it for the good of Fereldan, but I'm not seeing a whole lot of well balanced and emotionally healthy. The only way I personally can see to avoid this is to not have her love him at all, and that has it's own attendant issues given that she would have had to spend the better part of a year stringing him along. But, hey, that's just me.

Modifié par errant_knight, 21 avril 2010 - 02:05 .

[Sarah1281]

The relationship doesn't have to have been a long-term one. Maybe they just got together a little whiles before the Landsmeet.

[sylvanaerie]

I can't see it as doing it for the good of Ferelden. At that time Alistair is beaten down. He has lost the only family he's ever known and now the first woman he has ever loved has just stabbed him in the back saying their murderer gets to live AND be a Gray Warden. Instead of staying and get all violent he is ready to just walk away from it all. (D Gaider says its a decision he will regret later but we all do stupid things we regret later. No ONE is perfect). I see no reason why he can't be allowed to simply remove himself from the situation. The Gray Wardens are not a military organization. If a Warden chooses to leave he should be allowed to. I don't know of anywhere in the game it says leaving the wardens is punishable by death. Is it morally right knowing what's coming? No, I don't think so but I don't think he warrents death for it either. That's a bit extreme.

That's why I really think any woman who loves him would HAVE to be a few bulbs short of a christmas tree to have him executed.

[LadyDamodred]

errant_knight wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

This is a barbarous world. Perhaps the PC thinks in some crazy way killing him is the most merciful route she can go. If he lives people (Eamon) will still try to use him for their own agendas. If he dies, she can at least feel he was hers and hers alone (selfish I know but think of the Princess in Lady and the TIger). Does she let him go and let someone else have him? or does she keep him with her always by killing him.
Okay crazy...sorry I guess it all boils down to its just insane to kill someone you love without a legitimate reason. But I suppose in a barbaric world you can do it and even find justification to do it.

Yes, people have led me through a number of scenarios, and to me, not necessarily to others, they always seem to be somewhere along the sliding scale of wacky. Emotionally repressed/divorced from emotion, ruthless to the point of 'OMG, is that a pile of dead kittens behind your desk?', or just that angry at Alistiar's public display of disagreement. Now, I'm not saying that she can't still be doing it for the good of Fereldan, but I'm not seeing a whole lot of well balanced and emotionally healthy. The only way I personally can see to avoid this is to not have her love him at all, and that has it's own attendant issues given that she would have had to spend the better part of a year stringing him along. But, hey, that's just me.

Well, that's because I don't think you can have someone who is truly well-balanced and completelty emotionally healthy be in love with Alistair and decide to execute him.  I think there has to be some level of broken-ness.  You can be sane, you can be mostly emotionally stable, but in order to do that, I don't think it can be complete.  Doesn't make the love any less real, or her decision wrong, but the pc is not quite "right" for want of a better word.

[LadyDamodred]

sylvanaerie wrote...

I can't see it as doing it for the good of Ferelden. At that time Alistair is beaten down. He has lost the only family he's ever known and now the first woman he has ever loved has just stabbed him in the back saying their murderer gets to live AND be a Gray Warden. Instead of staying and get all violent he is ready to just walk away from it all. (D Gaider says its a decision he will regret later but we all do stupid things we regret later. No ONE is perfect). I see no reason why he can't be allowed to simply remove himself from the situation. The Gray Wardens are not a military organization. If a Warden chooses to leave he should be allowed to. I don't know of anywhere in the game it says leaving the wardens is punishable by death. Is it morally right knowing what's coming? No, I don't think so but I don't think he warrents death for it either. That's a bit extreme.
That's why I really think any woman who loves him would HAVE to be a few bulbs short of a christmas tree to have him executed.

anora is executing him and you are allowing it.  The Grey Wardens are not excuting Alistair.  Big difference.  You don't have an option to request his death unless Anora brings it up.

[KnightofPhoenix]

sylvanaerie wrote...
The Gray Wardens are not a military organization. If a Warden chooses to leave he should be allowed to. I don't know of anywhere in the game it says leaving the wardens is punishable by death.

The Grey Wardens are a military organisation (they are thousands), with hierarchy and with rules.
"There is no turning back".

And just like any miltiary organisation, desertion is punished by death, especially during the Blight. Do you seriously believe that a warden can, in the middle of the Blight, decide to leave if he wants and no one would do anything to him?

[sylvanaerie]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...
The Gray Wardens are not a military organization. If a Warden chooses to leave he should be allowed to. I don't know of anywhere in the game it says leaving the wardens is punishable by death.

The Grey Wardens are a military organisation (they are thousands), with hierarchy and with rules.
"There is no turning back".

And just like any miltiary organisation, desertion is punished by death, especially during the Blight. Do you seriously believe that a warden can, in the middle of the Blight, decide to leave if he wants and no one would do anything to him?

Yes I do.  Because you are changed by the Joining, there is no turning back. But there is nothing saying "We will kill you if you leave. There is no TRUE leaving of the Wardens, the darkspawn will find you no matter what you do.  Alistair is removing himself from the situation.  IF it was a real military organization then Alistair would be calling the shots because he is senior to the PC.  Riordan could DEMAND that you make Loghain a Warden but he doesn't, he merely points it out as an option. 

And I am not going to derail this thread by getting into a debate off topic.  My PoV on it was a PC would have to be insane to kill someone they love who wasn't a threat to anyone at that point.

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...
The Gray Wardens are not a military organization. If a Warden chooses to leave he should be allowed to. I don't know of anywhere in the game it says leaving the wardens is punishable by death.

The Grey Wardens are a military organisation (they are thousands), with hierarchy and with rules.
"There is no turning back".

And just like any miltiary organisation, desertion is punished by death, especially during the Blight. Do you seriously believe that a warden can, in the middle of the Blight, decide to leave if he wants and no one would do anything to him?

If no one is in a position to stop them, yes.  Neither you nor Riordan call for Alistair's death.  Anora does.  It is purely political, not a military punishment.

Indeed, Riordan says even if you leave, you'll just end up in the Deep Roads or the Blight lands, so clearly, it happens.

Geh, derailing the thread again!  Gomenasai!

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 21 avril 2010 - 02:23 .

[errant_knight]

LadyDamodred wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

I can't see it as doing it for the good of Ferelden. At that time Alistair is beaten down. He has lost the only family he's ever known and now the first woman he has ever loved has just stabbed him in the back saying their murderer gets to live AND be a Gray Warden. Instead of staying and get all violent he is ready to just walk away from it all. (D Gaider says its a decision he will regret later but we all do stupid things we regret later. No ONE is perfect). I see no reason why he can't be allowed to simply remove himself from the situation. The Gray Wardens are not a military organization. If a Warden chooses to leave he should be allowed to. I don't know of anywhere in the game it says leaving the wardens is punishable by death. Is it morally right knowing what's coming? No, I don't think so but I don't think he warrents death for it either. That's a bit extreme.
That's why I really think any woman who loves him would HAVE to be a few bulbs short of a christmas tree to have him executed.

anora is executing him and you are allowing it.  The Grey Wardens are not excuting Alistair.  Big difference.  You don't have an option to request his death unless Anora brings it up.

The 'good of Fereldan' thing is in regards to preventing a possible continuation of the civil war in Alistair's name. That's a legitimate argument, and from a supporter of Anora, makes sense. However, from a character who is supposedly in love with Alistair at the time, it doesn't seem to be an immediate enough threat to be a believable reason for her not to choose exile over execution. Not unless there's something squirrelly going on.

Modifié par errant_knight, 21 avril 2010 - 02:26 .

[LadyDamodred]

sylvanaerie wrote...
And I am not going to derail this thread by getting into a debate off topic.  My PoV on it was a PC would have to be insane to kill someone they love who wasn't a threat to anyone at that point.

I would say his existance is a threat from a political standpoint.  Not to say he would ever dream of doing anything, but he can be used.  This is the exact problem Anora raises.  My POV is that the PC does not have to be insane, just broken a tiny bit in the right way.

[LadyDamodred]

errant_knight wrote...
The 'good of Fereldan' thing is in regards to preventing a possible continuation of the civil war in Alistair's name. That's a legitimate argument, and from a supporter of Anora, makes sense. However, from a character who is supposedly in love with Alistair at the time, it doesn't seem to be an immediate enough threat to be a believable reason for her not to choose exile over execution. Not unless there's something squirrelly going on.

Just because you love someone does not mean you can't see the possible threat they could be.  If you can think about it logically enough, and put your own desires and wants away enough, you can see how it would be in the best interest of Ferelden to have him killed.  Again, a normal person wouldn't do this, but a slightly broken one easily could.  But, you've seen how I would rp it out, so I prolly shouldn't keep beating this expired equine.

[errant_knight]

LadyDamodred wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...
And I am not going to derail this thread by getting into a debate off topic.  My PoV on it was a PC would have to be insane to kill someone they love who wasn't a threat to anyone at that point.

I would say his existance is a threat from a political standpoint.  Not to say he would ever dream of doing anything, but he can be used.  This is the exact problem Anora raises.  My POV is that the PC does not have to be insane, just broken a tiny bit in the right way.

Heh, well, one person's 'just broken a tiny bit in the right way' is another person's 'mentally unstable.' I suspect we're all talking about pretty much the same kind of states with varying terminology.

LadyDamodred wrote...
Just because you love someone does not mean you can't see the possible threat they could be.  If you can think about it logically enough, and put your own desires and wants away enough, you can see how it would be in the best interest of Ferelden to have him killed.  Again, a normal person wouldn't do this, but a slightly broken one easily could.  But, you've seen how I would rp it out, so I prolly shouldn't keep beating this expired equine.

Yes, I understand the reasoning, I just think it's a little more nutters than you do. That is, in fact, an ex-horse.

Modifié par errant_knight, 21 avril 2010 - 02:33 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

sylvanaerie wrote...
Yes I do.  Because you are changed by the Joining, there is no turning back. But there is nothing saying "We will kill you if you leave. There is no TRUE leaving of the Wardens, the darkspawn will find you no matter what you do.  Alistair is removing himself from the situation.  IF it was a real military organization then Alistair would be calling the shots because he is senior to the PC.  Riordan could DEMAND that you make Loghain a Warden but he doesn't, he merely points it out as an option. 

And I am not going to derail this thread by getting into a debate off topic.  My PoV on it was a PC would have to be insane to kill someone they love who wasn't a threat to anyone at that point.

Alistair never exercised his right of command. It's his fault. But at least he knows he isn't suitable for this. Riordan leaves the option to the Commander of all armies that have been gathered and that's the Warden. At that point in time, the Warden is technically the commander of all of Ferelden's armies. Even if the Wardens allow their members to "have a break" right in the middle of the Blight (and the whole idea of this is ridiculous no offense), Alistair was still part of an army under the command of the Warden. And my particular Warden does not tolerate treason.

If no one is in a position to stop them, yes.  Neither you nor Riordan call for Alistair's death.  Anora does.  It is purely political, not a military punishment
Indeed, Riordan says even if you leave, you'll just end up in the Deep Roads or the Blight lands, so clearly, it happens..

No, Anora's call for execution is purely political. My Warden's logic in allowing that execution is military as I do not see someone as weak as Alistair to be any political threat. And had Anora not asked for the execution, my PC would have anyways, she was just faster.

And does this mean that wardens are free to leave whenver they want? No.
It means that running away is futile. But that certainly doesn't mean "Hey Wardens, we have a blight to fight and the fate of all of thedas is in our hands. But if you are feeling tired or depressed, you can leave if you want". 

 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 avril 2010 - 02:32 .

[LadyDamodred]

And I think varying amounts of instability. To me, this person is not mentally unstable. That seems to imply a greater degree of problems than I think exist in the character. They have a character trait, a flaw (and I do believe it is a flaw) that normal people wouldn't have.

[sylvanaerie]

LOL wouldn't "broken a tiny bit" kinda qualify as insane? Thats like being a "little bit pregnant".

[LadyDamodred]

sylvanaerie wrote...

LOL wouldn't "broken a tiny bit" kinda qualify as insane? Thats like being a "little bit pregnant".

No, not at all.  Insane has a very specific definition.  People have varying degrees of mental health and problems and nearly all of them are not insane.  You might think their behavior is irrational and crazy, but that does not mean they are insane.  In fact, the character that I wrote is very sane b/c she clearly knows what she is doing and the impact of her decisions.  Her issue lies in emotional stability.

[errant_knight]

KnightofPhoenix, please stop. Please, please. I've finally got this back on track....

[sylvanaerie]

I think Errant is right though, that kind of behavior I would see as insane. So its in varying PoV from the perspective of another looking at it and thinking..."So...if she loves him and hates me...I better not ****** her off, no telling WHAT she will do to me"