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Genetic variance?


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#26
Ecael

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Solomen wrote...

I've seen people putting down Mordin's claim that humans have more genetic variability than other sapient species.  In the case of salarians, krogans, drell and quarians he is absolutely correct.  I don't have enough information to make a determination on the other species such as turians so I'll take Mordin's word for it.  Image IPB

Humans aren't even remotely the most genetically diverse creatures on Earth.

If the writers want to better explain it (if they're listening!), they should just say that humans are the most phenotypically and functionally varied creatures on the planet and in the galaxy. It's made obvious by the many variations in human faces (which is more because of the ME graphics team made it that way). Humans also vary differently in that their civilizations allowed them freedom of choice and thus they retain different types of information and memories from each other. The geography of Earth and its varying climates also add to this.

Other civilizations like the Salarians, Krogans, Volus and Turians have very rigid societies (in part due to their physiology) in which most members are guaranteed to play only a specific role. Thus, their "essence" (as EDI called it -- when she was describing the Human Reaper) doesn't vary much from person to person.

For humans, every essence is unique. One human can live in close proximity to another but have unique interests, beliefs, occupations, preferences and memories. In other societies, Krogans are stuck in the mindset of fighting for breeding requests, Turians are rule-abiding and focused on military discipline, and Volus are focused on gathering and trading resources. Sure, there are exceptions (like Garrus or Wrex), but there isn't anywhere near as many exceptions as with humans, who have exceptions to the exceptions from the exceptions -- and Commander Shepard is one major exception.

What causes the varied phenotypes? Humans managed to survive in varying environments. While most inheritance is obviously from genetics, there is still a limited amount of inheritance by acquired characteristics due to maternal effects and the fact that the mother supplies much more to the initial developing zygote/embryo than the father does.

The Asari are also genetically and/or phenotypically varied (again, because the graphics team for BioWare focused on their faces next) possibly for the same reasons. However, their reliance on other species (and their lack of two genders) suggests that there is little to no genetic recombination during Asari reproduction. Thus, they have to rely on other phenotypically or functionally varied species outside their planet in order to produce varied offspring, because other species genes' trigger that genetic process.

Since the Asari couldn't reproduce with such species until they became spacefaring, they are less varied than humans whose DNA was capable of genetic recombination from the very start.

(Too Long/Didn't Read Version: I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT, BUT MY AVATAR IS A BLUE SUNS MERCENARY -- YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID)

mentosman8 wrote...

I'll quote Harbinger on the Asari "reliance on other species for reproduction shows genetic weakness." Similarly, the "father" doesn't actually contribute anything to the child, it essentially just flips a coin for some of the genes, so there's not as much ability for the DNA to change drastically.

Turians I'm not sure on though.

It's ironic because it appears that the Reapers also rely on other species for reproduction (unless they're fornicating in dark space for 50,000 years).

At the same time, the Reapers say that the Turians are too primitive. It's possible that the extreme radiation on the Turian homeworld hindered further evolution by wiping out large amounts of Turians at one time (causing a constant population bottleneck).

Modifié par Ecael, 18 avril 2010 - 12:49 .


#27
Collider

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That's a very interesting perspective Ecael. I only wish that Mordin had explained it as well as you are.

Modifié par Collider, 18 avril 2010 - 12:46 .


#28
Ecael

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Collider wrote...

That's a very interesting perspective Ecael. I only wish that Mordin had explained it as well as you are.

I only wish I could have explained the whole thing using Mordin's pattern of speech.

:P

#29
KujiMuji

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Ecael wrote...

Collider wrote...

That's a very interesting perspective Ecael. I only wish that Mordin had explained it as well as you are.

I only wish I could have explained the whole thing using Mordin's pattern of speech.

:P

Image IPBImage IPBWhich would probably be a single wall of text with no punctuations.

#30
Collider

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Mordin makes up for it with his awesomeness.



Speaking of awesomeness, Ecael, do you know how who in the suicide mission falls and is caught by Shepard, and who grabs Shepard when Shepard jumps for the shuttle, is decided?

#31
Guest_Shandepared_*

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It's unfortunate that the writers never looked up the human bottleneck because it would have totally worked as a plot twist.

#32
Ecael

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Collider wrote...

Mordin makes up for it with his awesomeness.

Speaking of awesomeness, Ecael, do you know how who in the suicide mission falls and is caught by Shepard, and who grabs Shepard when Shepard jumps for the shuttle, is decided?

Nope, never really tested it to see if it's based on a priority list, the squadmate selection, or just pure randomness.

#33
Xaijin

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Solomen wrote...

I've seen people putting down Mordin's claim that humans have more genetic variability than other sapient species.  In the case of salarians, krogans, drell and quarians he is absolutely correct.  I don't have enough information to make a determination on the other species such as turians so I'll take Mordin's word for it.  Image IPB


No.

Humans have had two ELE events whittle our breeding populace down to between 2000-10000 members. Our genetic variance is rather limited.

#34
Internet Kraken

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I just prefer to imagine that, for one reason or another. humans really are the most genetic varied. Since we don't have a genetic history of every single species in ME, it's not necessarily a false claim.

#35
Solomen

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If one salarian can accept a skin graft from another salarian without the graft being rejected then that would be evidence of inferior variability...

#36
wolf99000

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on are genetic variance I am not sure that we are I watched a tv show about all the extensions that the earth has seen and there was one that killed 90% of all humans and every single human can trace are dna back to the surviving 10% around 5000 humans that were left after



if I remember it right it was the toba eruption



but this is all a guess as we do not know the gentics of the other speices in mass effect

#37
Festi

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Shandepared wrote...

*cut*

Festi wrote...

Shouldn't Asari have a good deal of
genetic diversity? Seeing as they use genetic information from multiple
other species, including humans, to randomize their own?


They do not use any genetic material from other races.


I realize they don't use any material from other races.  What I mean is they us the information, they look at the genetic material of their mates and use that information to change their own.  To me this seems like usual mating just in another form.  Genetic information is transfered from the father to the mother who then uses both sets of information to create the child.  It seems as though information is just transfered in a different way.  It also seemed to me that they should have a good deal of genetic variation becuase of their ability to incorporate aspects of information from other races along with their own.  Assuming that the Asari also undergo natural mutations which also get passed on to the child it makes me think that they too should be diverse in their genetics.  It seems as though they use their ability to mate with other races to their advantage but not that they need too do so to survive as I assume they survived for quite some time before contacting other races.   Then again I dont know much about genetics :happy: so if someone wants to answer my questions it would be much appreciated :D

#38
Lemonwizard

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Solomen wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...

Also, logically, species that have been living on multiple different planets for over a thousand years should have vastly more genetic variability than one which has been stuck on their home planet until a generation ago.


Not really.  Not how the species in mass effect have been presented.  That is like saying cheetahs in america aren't basically identical to cheetahs in africa simply because they live in a different environment.   Cheetahs are so genetically similar that they are practically clones.  An american cheetah is closer to an african cheetah than a human is to its own mother.  Image IPB



Except Cheetahs don't have real popluations in America, they only exist in captivity in very small numbers. And even then, most of those were either captured in Africa or descended within a generation or two from animals captured in Africa.


Suggesting that there wouldn't even be slight variations between populations who have lived on an entirely different planet for a thousand years just seems silly to me. Unless, of course, the ME universe is in such a state that planets in the future are much like cities of today, where you might live on a different planet from your parents and your children might live on a different planet from you and individuals move from one to another all the time (in which case the genetic variation would only be larger insofar as how species living on multiple planets would have a much higher total population size), but such things have never really been specified.

#39
RyrineaNara

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Xaijin wrote...

Solomen wrote...

I've seen people putting down Mordin's claim that humans have more genetic variability than other sapient species.  In the case of salarians, krogans, drell and quarians he is absolutely correct.  I don't have enough information to make a determination on the other species such as turians so I'll take Mordin's word for it.  Image IPB


No.

Humans have had two ELE events whittle our breeding populace down to between 2000-10000 members. Our genetic variance is rather limited.


I don't remember 2 ELE events in history Image IPB. I do remember one ele event that happen 65 million years ago.  Are you talking about the ICE age? Image IPB


I too had a hard time beliving the humans are genticalty diversve thing Mordin was saying, since most of us stayed here for millions of years. Wouldn't we be genticalty diversve, if we stay on diffrent planets? Image IPB 

Modifié par RyrineaNara, 18 avril 2010 - 02:20 .


#40
Ecael

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I think people gave up on reading my wall of text for a decent explanation to all of it.

:(

In the meantime, we still need someone to mention the word "plothole" and the phrases "mass effect fields" and "a wizard did it" too.

#41
Solomen

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Lemonwizard wrote...

Solomen wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...

Also, logically, species that have been living on multiple different planets for over a thousand years should have vastly more genetic variability than one which has been stuck on their home planet until a generation ago.


Not really.  Not how the species in mass effect have been presented.  That is like saying cheetahs in america aren't basically identical to cheetahs in africa simply because they live in a different environment.   Cheetahs are so genetically similar that they are practically clones.  An american cheetah is closer to an african cheetah than a human is to its own mother.  Image IPB



Except Cheetahs don't have real popluations in America, they only exist in captivity in very small numbers. And even then, most of those were either captured in Africa or descended within a generation or two from animals captured in Africa.


Suggesting that there wouldn't even be slight variations between populations who have lived on an entirely different planet for a thousand years just seems silly to me. Unless, of course, the ME universe is in such a state that planets in the future are much like cities of today, where you might live on a different planet from your parents and your children might live on a different planet from you and individuals move from one to another all the time (in which case the genetic variation would only be larger insofar as how species living on multiple planets would have a much higher total population size), but such things have never really been specified.


Salarian females never leave the homeworld because they are rare.
Krogans live for over a thousand years... they haven't been in space for that long.
Asari live for a thousand years but need outside influence to avoid breeding sterile predators.
Quarians were nearly wiped out, then confined to a sterile environment.
Drell were nearly wiped out, and some still can't adapt to their new homeworld.

The aliens also appear to be homologous in their attitudes and personalities.  A salarian will usually act like a salarian.  A krogan will usually act like a krogan.  There are some outliers but for the most part they are all fairly similar.  A human can act like a salarian but the same is not true.  Try listening to elcor reciting shakespear. 

Bitter Melancholy: Alas poor Yorick... 
Image IPB

Modifié par Solomen, 18 avril 2010 - 02:26 .


#42
Solomen

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Ecael wrote...

I think people gave up on reading my wall of text for a decent explanation to all of it.

:(

In the meantime, we still need someone to mention the word "plothole" and the phrases "mass effect fields" and "a wizard did it" too.


Your explanation was awesomesauce but some people just want an excuse to say something bad about
the game Image IPB

#43
Festi

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Solomen wrote...

Ecael wrote...

I think people gave up on reading my wall of text for a decent explanation to all of it.

:(

In the meantime, we still need someone to mention the word "plothole" and the phrases "mass effect fields" and "a wizard did it" too.


Your explanation was awesomesauce but some people just want an excuse to say something bad about
the game Image IPB


I liked your explenation.  I just feel that assuming Asari are week because they 'rely' on other species doesn't account for all the time they spent with out outside influence.  If they were too homogenous before contact they could easily have been wiped out by a climate shift or disease.  Which is what the reapers are trying to pull in Omega from what I gathered but I had assumed that as species became more space faring they became more homogenous though I see the argument that this could also promote more diversity.  Besides... Asari are blue so...:wizard:? :o

#44
SnakeStrike8

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Thundertactics wrote...

Now, does anyone mind explaining why humans have such varied DNA?
Is it because of our varied climate? (Most worlds we visit in ME only seem to have one climate and temperature... :huh:)
Or perhaps the other species had much more, and much more succesful, wars and attempts at genocide? (Say, Hitler who actually accomplished his plans)



Or, y'know, it could be because the main character is human and humans in the game are decidedly at the center of galactic change and the rising power and all that.
In essence, humans in sci-fi have to have something that makes them unique and inherently superior to all other races, thus validating their ability to save the galaxy when others cannot.

#45
Slayer299

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yellowpride wrote...

Collider wrote...

Solomen wrote...

Turians also never killed a Reaper... I'm just sayin :)

They disabled one, didn't they? Or maybe I'm remembering incorrectly.


No, they fake disabled a Collector Ship.  We don't know who killed that other Reaper.


The one where you get the IFF? Yeah, you never find out who, just that it happened 37 million years ago.

#46
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RyrineaNara wrote...

I don't remember 2 ELE events in history Image IPB. I do remember one ele event that happen 65 million years ago.  Are you talking about the ICE age? Image IPB


For one there were no humans 65 million years ago. Secondly, the Ice Age was something like 15,000 years ago. There was a big near extinction event about 50,000 to 70,000 years ago.

Look up the human genetic bottleneck.

#47
Solomen

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Shandepared wrote...

RyrineaNara wrote...

I don't remember 2 ELE events in history Image IPB. I do remember one ele event that happen 65 million years ago.  Are you talking about the ICE age? Image IPB


For one there were no humans 65 million years ago. Secondly, the Ice Age was something like 15,000 years ago. There was a big near extinction event about 50,000 to 70,000 years ago.

Look up the human genetic bottleneck.


You realize that 70,000 years ago humans weren't human right?  Image IPB

#48
Astranagant

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Solomen wrote...

I've seen people putting down Mordin's claim that humans have more genetic variability than other sapient species.  In the case of salarians, krogans, drell and quarians he is absolutely correct.  I don't have enough information to make a determination on the other species such as turians so I'll take Mordin's word for it.  Image IPB


Bioware has a poor grasp of real-world Biology in general.

Most, if not all, of the alien species would be much more diverse than humans due to both the amount of time they've been around and the fact that they have had long term seperation of multiple gene pools on colony worlds and so on.

Solomen wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

RyrineaNara wrote...

I don't remember 2 ELE events in history Image IPB. I do remember one ele event that happen 65 million years ago.  Are you talking about the ICE age? Image IPB


For one there were no humans 65 million years ago. Secondly, the Ice Age was something like 15,000 years ago. There was a big near extinction event about 50,000 to 70,000 years ago.

Look up the human genetic bottleneck.


You realize that 70,000 years ago humans weren't human right?  Image IPB


.... You also appear to have a poor grasp of Biology, Evolution and Anthropology.

Modern man has been around for over 150,000 years. The people who were around 70,000 years ago were exactly the same as us biologically.

Modifié par Astranagant, 18 avril 2010 - 06:09 .


#49
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Solomen wrote...

You realize that 70,000 years ago humans weren't human right?  Image IPB


Oh boy, where do I start?

#50
adam_grif

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Solomen wrote...

You realize that 70,000 years ago humans weren't human right?  Image IPB


I feel bad for dogpiling, but modern humans (****** sapiens) have been around for as long as 200,000 years. The exact date is up for debate, but 70,000 years ago they were certainly around.