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Genetic variance?


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#51
Xaijin

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RyrineaNara wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

Solomen wrote...

I've seen people putting down Mordin's claim that humans have more genetic variability than other sapient species.  In the case of salarians, krogans, drell and quarians he is absolutely correct.  I don't have enough information to make a determination on the other species such as turians so I'll take Mordin's word for it.  Image IPB


No.

Humans have had two ELE events whittle our breeding populace down to between 2000-10000 members. Our genetic variance is rather limited.


I don't remember 2 ELE events in history Image IPB. I do remember one ele event that happen 65 million years ago.  Are you talking about the ICE age? Image IPB


I too had a hard time beliving the humans are genticalty diversve thing Mordin was saying, since most of us stayed here for millions of years. Wouldn't we be genticalty diversve, if we stay on diffrent planets? Image IPB 



ELE for US.

Volcano, Comet.

#52
Solomen

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adam_grif wrote...

Solomen wrote...

You realize that 70,000 years ago humans weren't human right?  Image IPB


I feel bad for dogpiling, but modern humans (****** sapiens) have been around for as long as 200,000 years. The exact date is up for debate, but 70,000 years ago they were certainly around.


Okay, I see where I messed up.  Sapiens and Neandertal cohabitated until 30,000bce but Sapiens have been around for 130,000 years.

I just researched the toba eruption and many scientists believe there weren't enough sapiens around for it to have effected a bottleneck.   Add to that all the aliens in ME have suffered more recent events as well as biological impediments. 

My avatar is a turian.  Your argument is invalid Image IPB

#53
Rocket Weazle

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Humans are genetically diverse because of Mass Effect fields,
and the Human Reaper makes no sense, big plot hole tbf, I guess a Wizard did it

#54
Solomen

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Rocket Weazle wrote...

Humans are genetically diverse because of Mass Effect fields,
and the Human Reaper makes no sense, big plot hole tbf, I guess a Wizard did it


Image IPB I am the harbinger of your perfection Image IPB

I'm sure you will be slapping yourself in the forehead, saying "I can't believe I didn't see this!" when ME3 comes out... or I could be wrong and you'll still be saying "Duhurr look at dem plot holes."  I'll give you the benefit of the doubt Image IPB

#55
Solomen

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Humans are genetically diverse compared to "OTHER SAPIENT SPECIES OF THE RELAY GALAXY"



They aren't the most diverse organism. Just the most diverse sapient species. The developers have decreed it and went out of their way to give plausible reasons, which have been listed. Do you honestly want Mordin to show a point by point comparative genome analysis in ME3?

Actually that would be interesting... but really shouldn't happen. The devs have done more than enough work to justify Mordin's assertion.

#56
Bucky_McLachlan

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Ecael wrote...
Humans aren't even remotely the most genetically diverse creatures on Earth.

I love how people who have no idea what they're talking about just say this as if it's just a well documented fact.

Name me a single species on this planet that it as wide spread and varied as human beings, and still has the ability to copulate with other related organisms without resulting in the birth of an organism that is inferior in many ways, often deformed and incapable of breeding.

If you can name me one such creature I will give you a gold star.

Modifié par Bucky_McLachlan, 18 avril 2010 - 10:20 .


#57
Solomen

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Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Ecael wrote...
Humans aren't even remotely the most genetically diverse creatures on Earth.

I love how people who have no idea what they're talking about just say this as if it's just a well documented fact.

Name me a single species on this planet that it as wide spread and varied as human beings, and still has the ability to copulate with other related organisms without resulting in the birth of an organism that is inferior, often deformed and incapable of breeding.

If you can name me one such creature I will give you a gold star.


The only thing I can think of is the chernobyl vole...  It has more junk dna and variable genome sequences than any other real animal I can think of without having much of an external impact Image IPB

#58
Bucky_McLachlan

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Solomen wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Ecael wrote...
Humans aren't even remotely the most genetically diverse creatures on Earth.

I love how people who have no idea what they're talking about just say this as if it's just a well documented fact.

Name me a single species on this planet that it as wide spread and varied as human beings, and still has the ability to copulate with other related organisms without resulting in the birth of an organism that is inferior, often deformed and incapable of breeding.

If you can name me one such creature I will give you a gold star.


The only thing I can think of is the chernobyl vole...  It has more junk dna and variable genome sequences than any other real animal I can think of without having much of an external impact Image IPB

Yes but how does that relate to this organisms ability to evolve to not only better cope with almost any environment, but also to evolve in unique ways that actually allow them to survive on diets that would probably kill other members of that species from a more temperate climate?

The Inuits for instance have evolved separately from the rest of us and are capable of sustaining theirselves on a diet high in fat and cholestoral without the increased risk of heart disease. Anglo-Saxons evolved over time and are resistant to bubonic plague.

You might see an increased genetic variance among a group of animals in the animal kingdom, but their behaivour and diet remain very similar, and yet they've evolved to a point where they are truly a separate species and are usually incapable of cross breeding.

For instance there is more variation in the cat family than in human beings, but breeding a Lion with a Tiger results in cubs that are deformed and sterile. Increased diversity amongst humans actually strengthens the species as a whole, makes us more resilient toward disease, and for the most part superior in terms of outward physical aspects.

Modifié par Bucky_McLachlan, 18 avril 2010 - 10:51 .


#59
Rocket Weazle

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Solomen wrote...

Rocket Weazle wrote...

Humans are genetically diverse because of Mass Effect fields,
and the Human Reaper makes no sense, big plot hole tbf, I guess a Wizard did it


Image IPB I am the harbinger of your perfection Image IPB

I'm sure you will be slapping yourself in the forehead, saying "I can't believe I didn't see this!" when ME3 comes out... or I could be wrong and you'll still be saying "Duhurr look at dem plot holes."  I'll give you the benefit of the doubt Image IPB

My whole comment was a joke, seriously, I didn't even mind the human Reaper, unlike alot of people aparently.
Haters gonna hate - I aint one.

Modifié par Rocket Weazle, 18 avril 2010 - 10:52 .


#60
Solomen

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Rocket Weazle wrote...

Solomen wrote...

Rocket Weazle wrote...

Humans are genetically diverse because of Mass Effect fields,
and the Human Reaper makes no sense, big plot hole tbf, I guess a Wizard did it


Image IPB I am the harbinger of your perfection Image IPB

I'm sure you will be slapping yourself in the forehead, saying "I can't believe I didn't see this!" when ME3 comes out... or I could be wrong and you'll still be saying "Duhurr look at dem plot holes."  I'll give you the benefit of the doubt Image IPB

My whole comment was a joke, seriously, I didn't even mind the human Reaper, unlike alot of people aparently.
Haters gonna hate - I aint one.


Well I did say I was giving you the benefit of the doubt Image IPB

#61
Ecael

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Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Ecael wrote...
Humans aren't even remotely the most genetically diverse creatures on Earth.

I love how people who have no idea what they're talking about just say this as if it's just a well documented fact.

Looks like you just read the first and last lines of my post again, Bucky.^_^

Humans haven't been around long enough to have actual genetic variation. You're confusing genotype with phenotype (which I spent the rest of my post explaining, but you apparently didn't even bother to read). Also, look up Mitochondrial Eve and Y-chromosomal Adam for further evidence that humans didn't start becoming even remotely varied until *after* their near-extinction event, a major population bottleneck brought on by a rapid change in climate or a massive natural disaster.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...es_script.shtml
"This confirmed what other geneticists have noticed. Given the length of time humans have existed, there should be a wide range of genetic variation, yet DNA from people throughout the world is surprisingly similar. What could have caused this? The answer is a dramatic reduction of the population some time in the past: a bottleneck."

http://science.educa..._variation1.htm
"****** sapiens is a relatively young species and has not had as much time to accumulate genetic variation as have the vast majority of species on earth, most of which predate humans by enormous expanses of time. Nonetheless, there is considerable genetic variation in our species. The human genome comprises about 3 x 10^9 base pairs of DNA, and the extent of human genetic variation is such that no two humans, save identical twins, ever have been or will be genetically identical. Between any two humans, the amount of genetic variation—biochemical individuality—is about 0.1 percent. This means that about one base pair out of every 1,000 will be different between any two individuals."

Name me a single species on this planet that it as wide spread and varied as human beings,

If you can name me one such creature I will give you a gold star.

Image IPB

Even though humans are obviously larger in mass (and superior in intelligence) in comparison to other species on Earth, their c-value/genome size (which includes both coding and non-coding DNA) is relatively small. This is known as the C-value enigma, which can only be explained so far by the fact that much of the DNA of an organism is non-coding. However, in order to truly find out what DNA codes for what and what doesn't code at all, you'd have to sequence an organism's genome and manually vary the gene through selective breeding or experimental gene insertion and deletion. Most of these studies are done on animals or plants that are agriculturally useful (like wheat), so it's currently unfeasible to start comparing non-coding DNA.
http://aob.oxfordjou...t/full/95/1/133
"It is a mere truism that for every genome there is a size, defined by either mass (in picograms, pg) or number of base pairs (bp). It is far from a given, however, that these sizes should be (mostly) constant species-specific characters, that they should vary over several orders of magnitude among eukaryotes, or that they should bear no connection to organismal complexity."

and still has the ability to copulate with other related organisms
without resulting in the birth of an organism that is inferior in many
ways, often deformed and incapable of breeding.

Not many humans even get far enough to be born:

http://www.mayoclini...arriage/DS01105
"About 10 to 20 percent of known pregnancies end in miscarriage. But the actual number is probably much higher because many miscarriages occur so early in pregnancy that a woman doesn't even know she's pregnant. Most miscarriages occur because the fetus isn't developing normally."
You owe me a lot of gold stars.:wizard:

Also, it seems like you're better at dismissing arguments rather than refuting them. And even when you do, you try to make use of what you believe is correct through your "common sense" instead of looking at and understanding the facts.

(Oh, and in terms of Mass Effect -- if the Reapers really wanted species purely for their genetic material, they would start kidnapping protozoa.)

:innocent:

Modifié par Ecael, 18 avril 2010 - 11:35 .


#62
Chickenaut

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My head explodes............

Please Ecael, go on.

#63
Guest_Caythark_*

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oh my goddess,execpt ecael , you all know as much about it as the man in the moon.

#64
Thundertactics

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Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Ecael wrote...
Humans aren't even remotely the most genetically diverse creatures on Earth.

I love how people who have no idea what they're talking about just say this as if it's just a well documented fact.

Name me a single species on this planet that it as wide spread and varied as human beings, and still has the ability to copulate with other related organisms without resulting in the birth of an organism that is inferior in many ways, often deformed and incapable of breeding.

If you can name me one such creature I will give you a gold star.

Canines.
When do I get my star?

#65
Guest_Caythark_*

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Humans have 46 chromosomes (or 23 pairs of chromosomes), the dog has 78 chromosomes

(Or 39 pairs of chromosomes)

#66
Timmibal

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Ecael blinds you with science




Fuggen pwnt.



I vote Bioware makes a Salarian scientist NPC named Ecael in ME3 who has an eavesdrop dialogue loop of epic sciencey goodness.



Over several generations, humanity will probably show a similar homogenization.




See that's what I thought was ALREADY the case in ME1, All of the human characters (barring Harkin, verner, and that c-sec recruit, who were white and blonde) showed evidence of being of diverse ethnic background. I seem to even remember there being something in the codex about it.



I will admit, It's kinda what pissed me off a bit about certain characters in ME2 and their complete lack of character outside of a token racial profile. *coughJacobandScottycough*



Scotty I can understand, bit of a star trek homage, but Jacob? Did the NAACP get stuck into you or something BioWare?

#67
Onyx Jaguar

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This thread needs more DNA and RNA comparisons.

#68
DPSSOC

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Solomen wrote...
Do you honestly want Mordin to show a point by point comparative genome analysis in ME3?


All in favour?  Aye.

#69
sammcl

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This is being taken a little too seriously, you're asking why humans are more genetically diverse than fictional alien races =.=

Hint: Because the protagonist is human! The writers want us to feel like we're special in some way, asari have really powerful biotics, krogan are incredibly strong, salarians incredibly smart, turians kinda in the middle like humans.

Something I find less believable than genetic diversity is why Uvenk recoils when you headbutt him....he's twice your size and has a massive bone plate on his head..silliest thing in ME2 from memory >_>

#70
adam_grif

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Aye.

#71
Timmibal

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Something I find less believable than genetic diversity is why Uvenk recoils when you headbutt him....he's twice your size and has a massive bone plate on his head




Shep's head is low enough to get him in the face, shep's wearing a helmet, and Uvenk totally did not think a human would have the stones to give a Krogan a Liverpool kiss?

#72
Ecael

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sammcl wrote...

This is being taken a little too seriously, you're asking why humans are more genetically diverse than fictional alien races =.=

It's not so much about taking it seriously -- it's more about trying to retcon possible explanations instead of just handwaving it like the writers sometimes do.

Something I find less believable than genetic diversity is why Uvenk recoils when you headbutt him....he's twice your size and has a massive bone plate on his head..silliest thing in ME2 from memory >_>

Image IPB

This is not recoil.

THIS is recoil:


Image IPB

Modifié par Ecael, 18 avril 2010 - 01:07 .


#73
Onyx Jaguar

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Hasn't anyone headbutted something before? You guys are underestimating how much force you can put into that. If you hit something just right you won't get concussed and will do quite a bit of damage. Pretty large amount of force in that action.

#74
sammcl

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I guess the low head thing can work but you're not necessarily wearing a helmet, I wasn't. He's still twice your size and used to taking headbutts from Wrex, I don't see how a tiny human would knock him back >_> I've used this interrupt once (due to the urge to click when things flash!) then never again after seeing how rediculous it is.

#75
Onyx Jaguar

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sammcl wrote...

I guess the low head thing can work but you're not necessarily wearing a helmet, I wasn't. He's still twice your size and used to taking headbutts from Wrex, I don't see how a tiny human would knock him back >_> I've used this interrupt once (due to the urge to click when things flash!) then never again after seeing how rediculous it is.


Again, quite a bit of force.  Like Martial Arts, a little guy can break the ribs of a muscle built guy if they apply the proper amount of force.