269 réponses à ce sujet

[Gavinthelocust]

Ecael blinds you with science

[Onyx Jaguar]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

Ecael blinds you with science

**** yes Dolby up in the hoooooooooooouse

[sammcl]

Still, it's not strong little guy vs strong big guy, it's puny human vs massive krogan

I don't think anything would convince me that a human could deal any damage to a krogan in unarmed combat. Provoking one in such a way just seems retarded. I just saw those screenshots too, don't think hitting lower on a krogan's face would help much, you get a choice of boneplate or jawbone Might be right that it wasn't much of a knockback though, I dunno, when I saw it I just thought it was rediculous, it might have been a gesture of surprise rather than recoil but that's not how I saw it : /

[knightnblu]

The diverse phenotype argument is invalid because Mordin specifically rejected it and attributes human genetic diversity to the complextity of the code itself. That takes it down to the alleles in each strand of data.

[Onyx Jaguar]

sammcl wrote...

Still, it's not strong little guy vs strong big guy, it's puny human vs massive krogan
I don't think anything would convince me that a human could deal any damage to a krogan in unarmed combat. Provoking one in such a way just seems retarded. I just saw those screenshots too, don't think hitting lower on a krogan's face would help much, you get a choice of boneplate or jawbone Might be right that it wasn't much of a knockback though, I dunno, when I saw it I just thought it was rediculous, it might have been a gesture of surprise rather than recoil but that's not how I saw it : /

Shepard didn't do any damage to Uvank.  Basically it is all Physics, force applied causes a reaction.  Shepard put a decent amount of force into the headbutt causing Uvank to be knocked back a little.

EDIT:  Plus Uvank wasn't expecting it so they weren't "Grounded" against it, so they were not stiff in order to receive the impact so they received the full force of the impact.  I'm tired my words don't make sense as I see them on screen.

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 18 avril 2010 - 01:26 .

[abstractwhiz]

Lemonwizard wrote...

Alot of Mordin's science seems minorly bogus to me. The stuff about genophage testing....who really gives a crap about DNA variety instead of getting the specific DNA it needs to work on? I see no practical reason why you'd be testing genophage stuff on humans instead of krogans.

That's the least of our problems. The weirdest thing is that alien life uses DNA at all. It's very strange that life is so widespread in the ME universe, but it's all based on the same replicator. Why? 

"About 10 to 20 percent of known pregnancies end in miscarriage. But the actual number is probably much higher because many miscarriages occur so early in pregnancy that a woman doesn't even know she's pregnant. Most miscarriages occur because the fetus isn't developing normally."

That's so true it isn't even funny. Apparently infant mortality is 90% unexplained, and only the remaining 10% is due to stuff we do - radiation exposure in the womb, mother smoking or using drugs, infected parents, etc. Fetuses are spontaneously aborted and pregnancies miscarry for reasons nobody has ever figured out. Mother Nature screws up A LOT. <_< 

I'm surprised no one has brought up Africa with all these comments about genetic diversity. Africa has more genetic diversity than anywhere else in the world, because when the first humans migrated out of Africa, most of them probably died and a very limited gene pool made it into Europe and Asia. ELEs aren't the only kind of bottleneck.

Something I find less believable than genetic diversity is why Uvenk recoils when you headbutt him....he's twice your size and has a massive bone plate on his head..silliest thing in ME2 from memory >_>

Isn't this because of how Cerberus rebuilt you? A normal human can't fire the Widow or the Claymore without serious injury. Shep's skull is probably reinforced, if not heavily rebuilt.

[Onyx Jaguar]

I can dent a metal pole if I hit it just right. Making a Krogan react to a headbutt isn't that big of a deal.

[przemichal]

Thundertactics wrote...

Now, does anyone mind explaining why humans have such varied DNA?
Is it because of our varied climate? (Most worlds we visit in ME only seem to have one climate and temperature... )
Or perhaps the other species had much more, and much more succesful, wars and attempts at genocide? (Say, Hitler who actually accomplished his plans)

I actually think it's because humans evolved with no use of Reapers' tech, while other species were using it for so long that it may have affected their evolution.

Modifié par przemichal, 18 avril 2010 - 01:37 .

[Ecael]

sammcl wrote...

Still, it's not strong little guy vs strong big guy, it's puny human vs massive krogan
I don't think anything would convince me that a human could deal any damage to a krogan in unarmed combat. Provoking one in such a way just seems retarded. I just saw those screenshots too, don't think hitting lower on a krogan's face would help much, you get a choice of boneplate or jawbone Might be right that it wasn't much of a knockback though, I dunno, when I saw it I just thought it was rediculous, it might have been a gesture of surprise rather than recoil but that's not how I saw it : /

Headbutting a Krogan is an insulting gesture that implies that the recipient is inferior (You... you dare?). It doesn't have to do damage. It's much like giving the finger and lightly backhanding someone in the face.

knightnblu wrote...

The diverse phenotype argument is invalid because Mordin specifically rejected it and attributes human genetic diversity to the complextity of the code itself. That takes it down to the alleles in each strand of data.

Diversity in phenotypes stemming solely from genetic code itself (and not the environment or experiences of the individual) exist only in human eyes anyway. To other creatures on Earth (and other aliens in Mass Effect), we practically all look and behave alike (You humans are all racist!).

Phenotypes can be diverse even if genetics aren't because more than one factor influences phenotype. If human DNA was actually that diverse and complex, we would develop and behave very differently from one another, to the point where forming civilizations would be improbable because we would basically share no similarities. They say chimpanzees contain the majority of the same DNA that we do, but we aren't exactly coexisting and living in perfect harmony with them.

abstractwhiz wrote...

That's the least of our problems. The weirdest thing is that alien life uses DNA at all. It's very strange that life is so widespread in the ME universe, but it's all based on the same replicator. Why?

Uh-oh. Abstractwhiz is here. I better be careful.

The Central Dogma of Molecular Biology would pretty much explain why that's the case, even if the DNA of other aliens is structured differently (like the Protheans and their quad-strand genetics). Trying to find exceptions and violations of the dogma delves into the field of hypothetical biochemistry.

The most far-fetched (but scientifically studied) type out there is probably life that forms from nothingness of space (interstellar dust):

Physicists Discover Inorganic Dust With Lifelike Qualities

"However, Tsytovich and his colleagues demonstrated, using a computer model of molecular dynamics, that particles in a plasma can undergo self-organization as electronic charges become separated and the plasma becomes polarized. This effect results in microscopic strands of solid particles that twist into corkscrew shapes, or helical structures. These helical strands are themselves electronically charged and are attracted to each other.

Quite bizarrely, not only do these helical strands interact in a counterintuitive way in which like can attract like, but they also undergo changes that are normally associated with biological molecules, such as DNA and proteins, say the researchers."

Essentially, given enough time and the right catalyst, some people speculate that sentience can form from dust behaving like basic organic particles. After all, life on Earth did begin from the basic elements with good catalysts (water and electricity).

If these creatures do form (or have already formed in another galaxy), I suggest we give them a special name. "Reapers" sounds good. Anyone agree?

[Ecael]

Also, to comment on the last line of that article:

The researchers hint that perhaps an inorganic form of life emerged on
the primordial earth, which then acted as the template for the more
familiar organic molecules we know today.

WE ARE THE HARBINGER OF YOUR GENETIC DESTINY

[Onyx Jaguar]

How would this work. In what form are they talking? What composition.

[sammcl]

Ecael wrote...

Headbutting a Krogan is an insulting gesture that implies that the recipient is inferior (You... you dare?). It doesn't have to do damage. It's much like giving the finger and lightly backhanding someone in the face.

Yaya, i get all that, i know it may not seem like it from my posts but i understand that it was meant as an insult not to actually injure Uvenk. What really irks me is the stupidity involved in an act of aggression against a physically superior and reputedly violent race. We find out afterwards that Uvenk doesn't retaliate, but who would have guessed that would be the outcome? I'd have bet on retaliation to defend his honour despite getting his clan thrown out and possibly destroyed by Wrex's allies. Who in their right mind would headbutt a krogan? O_o the chances of getting beaten to a pulp seem fairly high to me.

[Onyx Jaguar]

sammcl wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Headbutting a Krogan is an insulting gesture that implies that the recipient is inferior (You... you dare?). It doesn't have to do damage. It's much like giving the finger and lightly backhanding someone in the face.

Yaya, i get all that, i know it may not seem like it from my posts but i understand that it was meant as an insult not to actually injure Uvenk. What really irks me is the stupidity involved in an act of aggression against a physically superior and reputedly violent race. We find out afterwards that Uvenk doesn't retaliate, but who would have guessed that would be the outcome? I'd have bet on retaliation to defend his honour despite getting his clan thrown out and possibly destroyed by Wrex's allies. Who in their right mind would headbutt a krogan? O_o the chances of getting beaten to a pulp seem fairly high to me.

You have Grunt and the Shaman with you.  I doubt the Shaman would tolerate an open fight in that situation.  You are in Urdnot camp and Uvenk is not Urdnot.

[Ecael]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

How would this work. In what form are they talking? What composition.

When we talk about sentient life, we only see it in organic building blocks (biological monomers), as we know that as the only form to work on Earth so far. No one's given direct evidence of exactly how and when life first came about on Earth (abiogenesis) -- but we do know that it came about from some catalyst forming those monomers. The Miller-Urey experiment replicated the conditions of the Earth back then, and it is illustrated that lightning, heat and water provided the right energy for the assembly of basic amino acids.

However, in order to form organic material, it had to come from inorganic components. The article above suggests that dust suspended in plasma start behaving the same way those inorganic components on Earth did. Thus, the plasma in this case behaves like water, and the dust (of whatever elements are made up of) are attracted to each other through magnetism and electricity.

In short, while life formed from inorganic materials on Earth with lightning, heat and water acting as catalysts, life even in the emptiness of space can form from inorganic materials with electromagnetism and plasma acting as catalysts.

In theory. Experimental possibility. Only test is contact with plasma swarms. Look forward to seeing if they survive!

Modifié par Ecael, 18 avril 2010 - 02:14 .

[sammcl]

Even so, there's no way to tell if they can help before Uvenk injures or kills you. We're getting into speculation of Uvenk's thoughts now. Bottom line - headbutting a krogan, not a good idea, they strike me as a culture that would rather die with honour intact than obey laws and stay alive

[Ecael]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

sammcl wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Headbutting a Krogan is an insulting gesture that implies that the recipient is inferior (You... you dare?). It doesn't have to do damage. It's much like giving the finger and lightly backhanding someone in the face.

Yaya, i get all that, i know it may not seem like it from my posts but i understand that it was meant as an insult not to actually injure Uvenk. What really irks me is the stupidity involved in an act of aggression against a physically superior and reputedly violent race. We find out afterwards that Uvenk doesn't retaliate, but who would have guessed that would be the outcome? I'd have bet on retaliation to defend his honour despite getting his clan thrown out and possibly destroyed by Wrex's allies. Who in their right mind would headbutt a krogan? O_o the chances of getting beaten to a pulp seem fairly high to me.

You have Grunt and the Shaman with you.  I doubt the Shaman would tolerate an open fight in that situation.  You are in Urdnot camp and Uvenk is not Urdnot.

Urdnot Shaman is basically saying "If you want to fight, take it outside" like a bartender.

Gatatog Uvenk followed that and got killed because of it.

[Ecael]

sammcl wrote...

Even so, there's no way to tell if they can help before Uvenk injures or kills you. We're getting into speculation of Uvenk's thoughts now. Bottom line - headbutting a krogan, not a good idea, they strike me as a culture that would rather die with honour intact than obey laws and stay alive

True, but Renegade Shepard isn't the most reasonable person in the galaxy.

Modifié par Ecael, 18 avril 2010 - 02:16 .

[DPSSOC]

sammcl wrote...
Who in their right mind would headbutt a krogan?

 
Someone who's killed so many they've literaly lost count.  It's agression born of confidence that you have killed Krogan before, you have all the equipment needed to do so again, and if anything the Krogan (other Krogan anyway) will respect your for your aggression.  Alternatively somebody who's really, really, really, really drunk.

[sammcl]

Hah, i guess i can understand that, although you killed those many krogan with guns, not at close range with your weapons still "holstered."

[Xaijin]

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Ecael wrote...
Humans aren't even remotely the most genetically diverse creatures on Earth.

I love how people who have no idea what they're talking about just say this as if it's just a well documented fact.

Name me a single species on this planet that it as wide spread and varied as human beings, and still has the ability to copulate with other related organisms without resulting in the birth of an organism that is inferior in many ways, often deformed and incapable of breeding.

If you can name me one such creature I will give you a gold star.

Dogs

Cats

Horses

Cows

Thanks for playing.

[Ecael]

Thundertactics wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Ecael wrote...
Humans aren't even remotely the most genetically diverse creatures on Earth.

I love how people who have no idea what they're talking about just say this as if it's just a well documented fact.

Name me a single species on this planet that it as wide spread and varied as human beings, and still has the ability to copulate with other related organisms without resulting in the birth of an organism that is inferior in many ways, often deformed and incapable of breeding.

If you can name me one such creature I will give you a gold star.

Canines.
When do I get my star?

Since Bucky/Dink ran away from the argument again, I'll provide everyone with a gold star:



It'll look gold if you're on a distant planet in the same solar system, I promise!

[Habelo]

Man, for the first time a forum has actually felt me feel inferior in intellect. Guess i gotta study more.... stuff....

[abstractwhiz]

Ecael wrote...
Uh-oh. Abstractwhiz is here. I better be careful.

I have a reputation?! And in the eyes of Ecael, even - woohoo! 

The Central Dogma of Molecular Biology would pretty much explain why that's the case, even if the DNA of other aliens is structured differently (like the Protheans and their quad-strand genetics). Trying to find exceptions and violations of the dogma delves into the field of hypothetical biochemistry.

The Dogma doesn't specifically mention DNA, does it? Any reasonably complex replicating molecule with the right properties should be fine. Instead the most variation we have is a clump of four DNA strands rather than two, or DNA with opposite chirality. The wasted potential makes baby Jebus cry. 

And as for hypothetical biochemistry, this is science fiction! Who else gets to have fun with hypothetical biochemistry?  

The most far-fetched (but scientifically studied) type out there is probably life that forms from nothingness of space (interstellar dust):

Physicists Discover Inorganic Dust With Lifelike Qualities

"However, Tsytovich and his colleagues demonstrated, using a computer model of molecular dynamics, that particles in a plasma can undergo self-organization as electronic charges become separated and the plasma becomes polarized. This effect results in microscopic strands of solid particles that twist into corkscrew shapes, or helical structures. These helical strands are themselves electronically charged and are attracted to each other.

This is pretty cool stuff. But it's even more fun to see read about the amazing lifeforms that Greg Egan comes up with in Schild's Ladder and Diaspora. Of course he puts the 'hard' into 'hard scifi' with a vengeance, to the point that characters will casually discuss fictitious physics theories, tossing around actual technical terms from relativity and quantum theory like nobody's business.

[Mir5]

Just leaving bookmark here. This is good conversation, even if you guys don't come up with any other consensus than that ME2 had pretty unthought plot.



I can't see how genes would ultimately define us. They prove the basis for us, yes, people have different kind of chemical balance in their brains as they do have different looks, but what really defines us is education, culture.

The whole "humans are special" trope is propably the stupidest scifi clichee I've run into, yet, it has ruined so many otherwise good scifi titles for me. It would seem logical to me that if a species reaches space travel, they should have pretty much the same evolutionary value. Leaving a planet's atmosphere should require pretty much same amount of intellect, social development and physical strength everywhere in the universe.

Oh, and btw, in Mass we humans didn't even get anywhere but Mars by ourselves, yet we now seem to be the chosen ones of the galaxy, because we happened to have a fleet stationed near the citadel at that very specific moment.



And btw, from where are those Harbringer's half-assed quotes about race?

[Nightwriter]

I tell myself our "genetic diversity" is a direct result of Prothean experimentation at the dawn of human evolution.

Totally unverified and highly unlikely, but it's a better explanation than the alternative. ... Which is no explanation.