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Genetic variance?


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#101
Bucky_McLachlan

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Thundertactics wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Ecael wrote...
Humans aren't even remotely the most genetically diverse creatures on Earth.

I love how people who have no idea what they're talking about just say this as if it's just a well documented fact.

Name me a single species on this planet that it as wide spread and varied as human beings, and still has the ability to copulate with other related organisms without resulting in the birth of an organism that is inferior in many ways, often deformed and incapable of breeding.

If you can name me one such creature I will give you a gold star.

Canines.
When do I get my star?

Ya I expected someone to go here. And I just want to be perfectly clear: you are wrong! This is PATENTLY FALSE. Canine breeds are born with all sorts of genetic abnormalities that make them inferior in some ways. For instance certain breeds have skulls that are too small for their brains, and otherwise they might be breed to make them more efficient at doing a specific task but they end up being less efficient at other tasks and of course none of this variance makes them more resilient in ways that strengthen the species as a whole. All in all most of the differences between different breeds of dogs are purely cosmetic features, and any dog can contract rabies and other diseases.

You get no gold star. GTFO.

Modifié par Bucky_McLachlan, 18 avril 2010 - 11:27 .


#102
PTPR

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Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Thundertactics wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Ecael wrote...
Humans aren't even remotely the most genetically diverse creatures on Earth.

I love how people who have no idea what they're talking about just say this as if it's just a well documented fact.

Name me a single species on this planet that it as wide spread and varied as human beings, and still has the ability to copulate with other related organisms without resulting in the birth of an organism that is inferior in many ways, often deformed and incapable of breeding.

If you can name me one such creature I will give you a gold star.

Canines.
When do I get my star?

Ya I expected someone to go here. And I just want to be perfectly clear: you are wrong! This is PATENTLY FALSE. Canine breeds are born with all sorts of genetic abnormalities that make them inferior in some ways. For instance certain breeds have skulls that are too small for their brains, and otherwise they might be breed to make them more efficient at doing a specific task but they end up being less efficient at other tasks and of course none of this variance makes them more resilient in ways that strengthen the species as a whole. All in all most of the differences between different breeds of dogs are purely cosmetic features, and any dog can contract rabies and other diseases.

You get no gold star. GTFO.

There is a significant difference between a border collie and a beagle.

#103
Festi

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Mir5 wrote...

Just leaving bookmark here. This is good conversation, even if you guys don't come up with any other consensus than that ME2 had pretty unthought plot.

I can't see how genes would ultimately define us. They prove the basis for us, yes, people have different kind of chemical balance in their brains as they do have different looks, but what really defines us is education, culture.
The whole "humans are special" trope is propably the stupidest scifi clichee I've run into, yet, it has ruined so many otherwise good scifi titles for me. It would seem logical to me that if a species reaches space travel, they should have pretty much the same evolutionary value. Leaving a planet's atmosphere should require pretty much same amount of intellect, social development and physical strength everywhere in the universe.
Oh, and btw, in Mass we humans didn't even get anywhere but Mars by ourselves, yet we now seem to be the chosen ones of the galaxy, because we happened to have a fleet stationed near the citadel at that very specific moment.

And btw, from where are those Harbringer's half-assed quotes about race?


I agree with you on the culture thing.  While I was playing I was wondering about their choice in humanity.  Since the game doesn't actually give you a great deal of information to use in formulating a reason based on genetics other than a few conversations I wondered if maybe it was more chance.  Humans (Shepard) happened to be in the wrong (or) write place at the right time.  The argument that humans are the only ones who brought down a reaper seems a bit lacking to me though since I doubt humanity could have handled Soveriegn on it's own and a great deal of Shepards strength comes from his/her team mates and ability to lead a diverse group.  In the battle with Soveriegn I imagine the Turians would have played a big part since I though they provide a lot of the warships and all that. 

#104
Bucky_McLachlan

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Ecael wrote...

Also, it seems like you're better at dismissing arguments rather than refuting them. And even when you do, you try to make use of what you believe is correct through your "common sense" instead of looking at and understanding the facts.

This is pure rubbish, you're bringing information into the argument that has nothing at all to do with the argument being made. Genetic variance in human beings for isntance has very little to do with how complex our DNA is.

You obviously missed the class on what genetic variance even is if that's what you're bringing the argument down to.

Here's some science for you sparky. Genetic variance is what allows a species to adapt in beneficial ways over time. It results from several factors, it is influence by several main criteria including genetic mutation and elimination of recessive characteristics and the addition of dominate ones. It has precisely d*ck to do with how complex an organisms dna is. If genetic variance has not occured in ways that make the organism more capable of survival than whatever mutations have occured mean nothing at all and evolution has not occured.

NO GOLD STAR FOR YOU.
Keep copying and pasting random sh*t to make yourself sound smarter than you are though if you must. :whistle:

#105
Bucky_McLachlan

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PTPR wrote...
There is a significant difference between a border collie and a beagle.

Sure but both animals are indisputably inferior to the animal from which domestic dogs were originally breed. They are not evolved animals in any way, if anything they have devolved in several ways from the original species.

#106
PTPR

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Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

PTPR wrote...
There is a significant difference between a border collie and a beagle.

Sure but both animals are indisputably inferior to the animal from which domestic dogs were originally breed. They are not evolved animals in any way, if anything they have devolved in several ways from the original species.

That was because of human interference.
And Border Collies are pretty smart. (not surprising considering they have the most genetic variance)

Modifié par PTPR, 18 avril 2010 - 11:55 .


#107
Bucky_McLachlan

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PTPR wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

PTPR wrote...
There is a significant difference between a border collie and a beagle.

Sure but both animals are indisputably inferior to the animal from which domestic dogs were originally breed. They are not evolved animals in any way, if anything they have devolved in several ways from the original species.

That was because of human interference.
And Border Collies are pretty smart.

The only reason they exist at all is because of human interference. If you're arguing that canines are more genetically diverse than humans and this somehow makes Mordin's whole spiel about human genetic variance stupid then you don't even understand what genetic variance is.

I just explained it above as simply as possible. Bottom line if it doesn't strengthen the species as a whole and doesn't lead to a more evolved organism more adated to it's environment then whatever genetic diversity they may have doesn't even matter.

#108
PTPR

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Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

[The only reason they exist at all is because of human interference. If you're arguing that canines are more genetically diverse than humans and this somehow makes Mordin's whole spiel about human genetic variance stupid then you don't even understand what genetic variance is.

I just explained it above as simply as possible. Bottom line if it doesn't strengthen the species as a whole and doesn't lead to a more evolved organism more adated to it's environment then whatever genetic diversity they may have doesn't even matter.

Yes, but you asked for a species that has more genetic variance than humans. Someone said dogs. Whether it was natural or futhered the species, it doesn't matter. Dog breeds are incredibly different from eachother. More so than humans.

#109
Bucky_McLachlan

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PTPR wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

[The only reason they exist at all is because of human interference. If you're arguing that canines are more genetically diverse than humans and this somehow makes Mordin's whole spiel about human genetic variance stupid then you don't even understand what genetic variance is.

I just explained it above as simply as possible. Bottom line if it doesn't strengthen the species as a whole and doesn't lead to a more evolved organism more adated to it's environment then whatever genetic diversity they may have doesn't even matter.

Yes, but you asked for a species that has more genetic variance than humans. Someone said dogs. Whether it was natural or futhered the species, it doesn't matter. Dog breeds are incredibly different from eachother. More so than humans.

Can you not read? How incredibly different some dogs are from one another has JACK F*CKING SH*T to do with this topic.

#110
Xaijin

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Wrong. It has everything to do with the topic, and both includes adaption-by-behavior (african wolves) and adaptive variation (Argentine Boar Hounds) it's pretty cut and dried you haven't the faintest ****ing idea what you're talking about, as pointed out by four different people. The variations in human beings is culled from less than .04% of the total human genome which additionally accounts for tRNA and RNA development coded expression/suppression (Source: Human Genome Project /National Geographic) which is far less than both dogs and cats and even sheep.

Secondly humans are subject to the same rules and have been under a laissez-faire version of the same for millenia, by both environmental factors (flat noses, "three corner" eyes) and direct intervention (Height, Immune response) (Source: same)

Just stop posting.

Modifié par Xaijin, 19 avril 2010 - 12:39 .


#111
Ecael

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Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

This is pure rubbish, you're bringing information into the argument that has nothing at all to do with the argument being made. Genetic variance in human beings for isntance has very little to do with how complex our DNA is.

You obviously missed the class on what genetic variance even is if that's what you're bringing the argument down to.

Here's some science for you sparky. Genetic variance is what allows a species to adapt in beneficial ways over time. It results from several factors, it is influence by several main criteria including genetic mutation and elimination of recessive characteristics and the addition of dominate ones. It has precisely d*ck to do with how complex an organisms dna is. If genetic variance has not occured in ways that make the organism more capable of survival than whatever mutations have occured mean nothing at all and evolution has not occured.

"Genetic variability is different from genetic diversity (or genetic variation) in a way that the former measures how much the trait or the genotype will tend to vary whereas the latter measures the number of the actual variation of species in a population. Compared with genetic diversity, genetic variability is more difficult to measure. At the molecular level, genetic variability may be measured by determining the rate of mutation."

Not only are you getting your definitions for genotype and phenotype mixed up, you don't understand the difference between genetic variability and genetic diversity either. Just because certain organisms develop different diseases or are "weaker" than others (whatever that means to you) doesn't mean anything unless you've sequenced the genomes of each one yourself and compared them.

It's fairly clear by now that humans didn't start diverging genetically until very late in the timeline of life existing on Earth, putting them at a major disadvantage in genetic variability compared to other species. At the same time, that low mutation rate also means a high survival rate for each individual human, which you seem to be confusing as "rapid mutation makes humans stronger than everyone else, therefore I am correct". Thus, your argument is actually backwards -- being born with several abnormalities means mutation is occurring at a very rapid rate. While this is bad for the individual organism, it is beneficial for the species as a whole (assuming there are beneficial mutations that arise). The reason it's not so evident with humans and the reason why you're scrambling your argument is because our species is very focused on raising a minuscule number of healthy offspring. A lot of potential offspring do not survive in the womb and are selected against already.

Human DNA has several methods of preventing mutations from occurring, which results in less genetic variation in the long run. Single-celled organisms, viruses and bacteria (and some plants) - organisms that don't have as many failsafes, have much more genetic variability and a higher mutation rate than humans.

Keep copying and pasting random sh*t to make yourself sound smarter than you are though if you must. :whistle:

Of course, you're the one who keeps disagreeing with everyone else, even in the face of obvious evidence that you still don't bother to read or accept.

I'm impressed. You're very skilled at being an uninformed troll. Your constant arguing with everyone else -- whether it is specific Mass Effect characters, Star Wars critique or genetics -- just further solidifies that fact. Because of people like you, I don't just sound more intelligent, I know I am.

And I also know that you contribute absolutely nothing to this thread (or the forum itself) other than cynical, condescending arguments full of latent bitterness and misinformation, so I (and everyone else here) can be entirely certain of being on the winning side of the argument whenever you're posting.

:wizard:
7382948128212060

Modifié par Ecael, 30 juin 2010 - 09:10 .


#112
nuculerman

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 Shut up, Ecael.  What do you know?  Genetic diversity is good.  Genetic variance is good.  Humanity is good.  Therefore, it follows that humanity has the most genetic diversity AND genetic variance.  

And if you still want to argue about, I'd like you to first consider the following;

This is Chewbacca: http://sitemaker.umi...c_chewbacca.jpg

Now, Chewbacca is a wookie, from the planet Kashyyk.  But he lives on Endor.  Now think about that.  Why would a wookie, an EIGHT FOOT TALL WOOKIE, live on Endor, with a bunch of little TWO FOOT tall Ewoks.  That.  Does.  Not.  Make.  Sense.  Why am I, while trying to debate human genetics, talking about Chewbacca?  That.  Does.  Not.  Make.  Sense.  So you have to remember; when you're typing in this forum, deliberatin' and conjugatin' the emancipation proclamation, does it make sense?  No.  It.  Does.  Not.  Make.  Sense.  If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you're wrong.

#113
Onyx Jaguar

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nuculerman wrote...

 Shut up, Ecael.  What do you know?  Genetic diversity is good.  Genetic variance is good.  Humanity is good.  Therefore, it follows that humanity has the most genetic diversity AND genetic variance.  

And if you still want to argue about, I'd like you to first consider the following;

This is Chewbacca: http://sitemaker.umi...c_chewbacca.jpg

Now, Chewbacca is a wookie, from the planet Kashyyk.  But he lives on Endor.  Now think about that.  Why would a wookie, an EIGHT FOOT TALL WOOKIE, live on Endor, with a bunch of little TWO FOOT tall Ewoks.  That.  Does.  Not.  Make.  Sense.  Why am I, while trying to debate human genetics, talking about Chewbacca?  That.  Does.  Not.  Make.  Sense.  So you have to remember; when you're typing in this forum, deliberatin' and conjugatin' the emancipation proclamation, does it make sense?  No.  It.  Does.  Not.  Make.  Sense.  If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you're wrong.



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#114
Ecael

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nuculerman wrote...

Another pointless contribution with an attitude to the thread! How original! Another account of Bucky/Din/troll? I've already proven everything you said wrong, so I'll just post this from now on:

Image IPB

Modifié par Ecael, 19 avril 2010 - 01:07 .


#115
Onyx Jaguar

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I don't know whether or not I should laugh or cry at this point

#116
Tlazolteotl

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Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I don't know whether or not I should laugh or cry at this point


Is that better or worse than being totally hot for Ecael, which is where I'm at right now.

#117
Onyx Jaguar

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Tlazolteotl wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I don't know whether or not I should laugh or cry at this point


Is that better or worse than being totally hot for Ecael, which is where I'm at right now.


Worse because I think I am the only one who got the joke

#118
nuculerman

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Ecael wrote...

nuculerman wrote...

Another pointless contribution with an attitude to the thread! How original! Another account of Bucky/Din/troll? I've already proven everything you said wrong, so I'll just post this from now  


Excuse me.  Since when is South Park humor meant to insult your opponent and agree with you a pointless contribution?  I guess you'd rather me say something more scientific?  To what end?  You've already posted 15 times on the subject and seem to know more about human biology than I do.  I'm a nuclear engineer.  If you'd like me to contribute by proving why the shortest distance between two points is a straight line using variational calculus, or calculate the lifetime of a nuclear power plant, I'm your man.  But as for genetics, sorry, all I have to contribute is good natured humor.  

Well I'll also say this is just a game, and the scientific lore, no matter how seemingly unscientific it is, is always right.  The writers wanted humanity to be the most genetically varied species in the Galaxy so they are.  Arguing with them over the likelihood of such a phenomenon is pointless and juvenile.  It's called science fiction for a reason.   Of course I was doing you a kindness and not pointing out you're arguing and obsessing of something so trivial because I don't openly insult people for no reason, but I feel that you've provoked me for calling me a troll because I thought a thread was funny and I think South Park is funnier.




#119
Xaijin

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Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Tlazolteotl wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I don't know whether or not I should laugh or cry at this point


Is that better or worse than being totally hot for Ecael, which is where I'm at right now.


Worse because I think I am the only one who got the joke


Your Honor, I love grape Jelly.

Modifié par Xaijin, 19 avril 2010 - 01:26 .


#120
Tlazolteotl

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Eh ... and I have issues with the validity of sci-fi in general 'cos they almost universally fail to address the Fermi Paradox.

"They just do, ok?" seems to be a necessary component of science fiction nowadays, and it is teh suxxorz.


#121
Ecael

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nuculerman wrote...

Ecael wrote...

nuculerman wrote...

Another pointless contribution with an attitude to the thread! How original! Another account of Bucky/Din/troll? I've already proven everything you said wrong, so I'll just post this from now  


Excuse me.  Since when is South Park humor meant to insult your opponent and agree with you a pointless contribution?  I guess you'd rather me say something more scientific?  To what end?  You've already posted 15 times on the subject and seem to know more about human biology than I do.  I'm a nuclear engineer.  If you'd like me to contribute by proving why the shortest distance between two points is a straight line using variational calculus, or calculate the lifetime of a nuclear power plant, I'm your man.  But as for genetics, sorry, all I have to contribute is good natured humor.  

Well I'll also say this is just a game, and the scientific lore, no matter how seemingly unscientific it is, is always right.  The writers wanted humanity to be the most genetically varied species in the Galaxy so they are.  Arguing with them over the likelihood of such a phenomenon is pointless and juvenile.  It's called science fiction for a reason.   Of course I was doing you a kindness and not pointing out you're arguing and obsessing of something so trivial because I don't openly insult people for no reason, but I feel that you've provoked me for calling me a troll because I thought a thread was funny and I think South Park is funnier.

South Park humor or not, people usually preface jokes and insults toward me with "I know you've given a lot to the forums, Ecael", so it's obvious who you are (or who you shouldn't be).

I had another paragraph ready, but I'll just use my handy timesaver!

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#122
BattleVisor

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Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Ecael wrote...
Humans aren't even remotely the most genetically diverse creatures on Earth.

I love how people who have no idea what they're talking about just say this as if it's just a well documented fact.

Name me a single species on this planet that it as wide spread and varied as human beings, and still has the ability to copulate with other related organisms without resulting in the birth of an organism that is inferior in many ways, often deformed and incapable of breeding.

If you can name me one such creature I will give you a gold star.


The wolf  :wizard:

#123
adam_grif

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Ecael wrote...

nuculerman wrote...

Another pointless contribution with an attitude to the thread! How original! Another account of Bucky/Din/troll? I've already proven everything you said wrong, so I'll just post this from now on:

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Minor revision for you:

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#124
Ecael

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adam_grif wrote...

Minor revision for you:

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When was the last time you saw a moderator on this forum?

:P

#125
Guest_JohnnyDollar_*

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Ecael wrote...
When was the last time you saw a moderator on this forum?
:P

This forum has mods?  Sure as hell could have fooled me.:P

Modifié par JohnnyDollar, 19 avril 2010 - 01:39 .