71 réponses à ce sujet

[Nooneyouknow13]

endgamecutter wrote...

okay...and what's the solution if I DON'T have DLC? or is it warden commander that comes with warden's keep? (basicly, are you refering to the templar armor or not?) Also, would that give good defenses against standard baddies that want to eat my face instead of burn it? I like the prospect of spell immunity, but people with pointy sticks are more common than people with fireballs. Plus templar loses out on some CC (and forces me to choose between templar and reaver, which is fluff vs. gambler, always a hard choice)

Knight Commander's Plate is the super Templar Armor you buy from Faryn in the Frostback mounts right outside Orzammar for about 30 gold. It's 39 strength required, silverite massive chest with +5 willpower and +40% magic resist.  Any other warrior spec will work well. If you want control, go with Champion. If you want raw damage, berserker.  If you want reaver for a mix of damage and control, and a self heal, go for it.  Use the Diligence gloves for the armor boost if you feel you need it, and any boots you want to.  With high willpower Holy Smite is a fairly powerful area effect nuke that has no friendly fire, causes knockdown or stun, and does extra damage to mages.  If you drop it on top of yourself it's basically a damaging War Cray.

If you don't have warden's keep however, I very, very strongly recommend not going the Two Hand route. No early access to Starfang would make it extremely painful.

[Swordfishtrombone]

Marso40 wrote...

To build a rogue warrior, start by giving them a strength of about 15, which is what is required to heft a steel sword. That's good enough to start, and then pump up dexterity for several levels and make sure you do the circle tower first for all the extra attribute points. Then start distributing points into primarily dex and str, back up by con and willpower (for stamina).

No, no, no and no!

If you want a rogue that kicks any warrior's butt in a straight up toe-to-toe fight, it's gotta be dexterity all the way, and NEVER wield anything but dual daggers! If you go for a larger weapon to dual wield, you don't get the damage bonus a piercing weapon gets from dexterity, and you are slower.

A fighting rogue is all about speed. The rogue tallent tree that gives you "Coup de crace" is important, as that skill allows you to backstab stunned or otherwise incapacitated enemies without having to creap around them. That skill tree (if I remember correctly) also gives you the ability to backstab at a shallower angle, so you don't have to go all the way around an enemy to get backstabs.

I'd recommend taking only the minimum of strength, enough to wear helms and light armor. No more than a few points to strength need be spent at level up, as you get strength bonuses in the Fade, and if you go get Shale early on, you'll get a very nice ring with a strength bonus to help you along too.

You don't want to wear anything heavier than light armor anyway. Add to that an item like the "bard's dancing shoes" that reduces hostility, and you don't have to circle around the enemies often, because THEY turn their backs to you, going for your allies.

And this kind of a rogue isn't tedious to play at all - you don't need to use poisons, or traps, and you'll still be more bad-ass than your clumsy warrior that's moving like in slow motion compared to your lighning-fast rogue, that eats Revenants for breakfast!

Modifié par Swordfishtrombone, 06 mai 2010 - 10:20 .

[Elhanan]

^ Sorry, but I also play high STR & DEX, and it works fine. I am able to wear heavier armor and avoid Overwhelm & Grab deaths. While it may not look as nifty as a DEX build, it does have punch and longevity.

[Swordfishtrombone]

Elhanan wrote...

^ Sorry, but I also play high STR & DEX, and it works fine. I am able to wear heavier armor and avoid Overwhelm & Grab deaths. While it may not look as nifty as a DEX build, it does have punch and longevity.

I'm sure you can make a viable character that way, but I doubt very much that it'll be as strong as a DEX build. Physical resistance is affected not only by STR but DEX also, so a pure DEX build can resist effects with a physical resistance check quite well.

Also, while a STR/DEX rogue can indeed wear heavier armor, heavier armor translates into increased hostility towards your rogue - and as a rogue, you'd rather have enemies concentrate on others so that they'll turn their backs on you.

A high dex rogue is in addition less likely to get hit in the first place, and a high level high dex rogue rarely gets hit at all, so heavier armor would be of little benefit.

[endgamecutter]

^but then you're an assassin/backstabber rogue. The goal there was a rogue WARRIOR, who stands at the front using agility or dirty tricks to help them. While yes, it would probably backstab from time to time, it would usually still fight head-on most of the time, hence str-dex is most likely the more efficient rogue warrior (due to armor giving survivability, and other in your face benefits)

[Swordfishtrombone]

endgamecutter wrote...

^but then you're an assassin/backstabber rogue. The goal there was a rogue WARRIOR, who stands at the front using agility or dirty tricks to help them. While yes, it would probably backstab from time to time, it would usually still fight head-on most of the time, hence str-dex is most likely the more efficient rogue warrior (due to armor giving survivability, and other in your face benefits)

After you get coup de grace, if you've got any crowd control ability in your party, a backstab rogue rarely has to move to position to get backstabs - the combination of enemies being stunned (when backstabs work face to face), and enemies turning their backs to you, because they underestimate the threat of a character in light armor, adds up to you dealing out backstab damage most of the time.

This character can indeed be played just like a warrior, and will outdo the warrior in pure damage dealt, and I would bet survivability too.

Armor does give survivability IF you don't have high enough dexterity to dodge almost all the attacks coming at you. Which you won't with a STR/DEX rogue. A rogue concentrating on DEX alone, with maybe some points to cunning, taking the duelist and assassin specializations would find anything heavier than light armor an overall hinderance, rather than a benefit.

[BigBad]

My two favorite characters were warriors. Both were extremely fun to play, awesome to watch in action, and badass to the bone.



Dwarf Commoner - Dual-Wielding Warrior, spec Berserker/Templar

Human Noble - Two-Handed Warrior, spec Champion/Templar



I've never gotten a rogue past Ostagar (although I enjoyed actually being able to open chests before recruiting Leliana, since Daveth can't open a single locked chest I've tried), and I lost interest in my mage (AW/SH) around the time I hit Orzammar.

[Nooneyouknow13]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...


No, no, no and no!

If you want a rogue that kicks any warrior's butt in a straight up toe-to-toe fight, it's gotta be dexterity all the way, and NEVER wield anything but dual daggers! If you go for a larger weapon to dual wield, you don't get the damage bonus a piercing weapon gets from dexterity, and you are slower.

It's not really a bonus.  Melee weapons other than daggers are (Strength-10)*(Random number between .25 and .5)*Weapon Attribute Bonus+Weapon damage roll for main hand, and daggers are (Strength-10+Cunning-10)/2*(Random number between .25 and .5)*.85+Weapon damage roll.  While dual wielding a long sword gains an average of .375 damage per strength in the main hand, and a dagger gains an average of .1640625 damager per Strength or Dexterity.  Since daggers have a split statistic scaling they scale very poorly with your stats. The only reason dual dagger does more dps than longsword/dagger is because the attack speed with long sword and dagger is 1.2 seconds vs 1.0 second with daggers, giving daggers a higher benefit from poisons and runes.

Offhand damage calcs are even worse, but after you take the first talent in the first DW line it's the same as main hand, so I won't bother to list it.  The split stat scaling actually makes daggers worse than longswords/aexs in any dex/cun or dex/strength build, and only superior to them in a pure dexterity build simply because you've invested next to no points in the other attributes.  Two fullsize weapons will give better damage on all of the specials too, since specials do not benefit from poisons or runes.

Edit: You also mentioned the Bard's Dancing shoes, but I cut that out. They do nothing right now. The increased and decreased hostility properties currently do not work.

Modifié par Nooneyouknow13, 06 mai 2010 - 08:55 .

[Nooneyouknow13]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

^ Sorry, but I also play high STR & DEX, and it works fine. I am able to wear heavier armor and avoid Overwhelm & Grab deaths. While it may not look as nifty as a DEX build, it does have punch and longevity.

I'm sure you can make a viable character that way, but I doubt very much that it'll be as strong as a DEX build. Physical resistance is affected not only by STR but DEX also, so a pure DEX build can resist effects with a physical resistance check quite well.

Also, while a STR/DEX rogue can indeed wear heavier armor, heavier armor translates into increased hostility towards your rogue - and as a rogue, you'd rather have enemies concentrate on others so that they'll turn their backs on you.

A high dex rogue is in addition less likely to get hit in the first place, and a high level high dex rogue rarely gets hit at all, so heavier armor would be of little benefit.

Ack, another one.  Ok, first off, you can't resist Overwhelm, it has no check. Secondly, armor only gives a small bonus to threat at the very start of combat on difficulties other than nightmare. It has nothing to do with in combat threat generation.  Clothing is +0, Light is +5, Medium/Heavy/Massive is +10. Wiedling a melee weapon is also +5. Every party member also gains a minimum of +10 when becoming visible, which matters because a Mage's Mindblast wipes out even that initial +10.  1% of a mobs health in damage generates 1 threat. Taunt generats 300. And there's also a distance based componenet which is why it takes a long time for the mobs to break off and attack your archer early game.

Modifié par Nooneyouknow13, 06 mai 2010 - 09:03 .

[endgamecutter]

Alright, the templar option looks good-ish, and I'll probably follow it up with champion for more knockdowns (I don't like trading away my health, and I love the image of veteran commanders, especially with the whole warden thing) I'm a bit concerned about stamina regeneration though. I'll be using a bunch of sustains (dual strike, momentum, rally and beyond the veil most of the time) which leaves me with 12 degen (or 2 without beynd the veil). When I first tried the dual wielder, momentum on made my stamina drain within seconds of entering combat. I think this may have been due to being hit by lightning magic, but I don't know as a fact. Also, once beyond the veil kicks in, I'll definately need to worry about the degen destroying my stamina pool. Are there any good measures to take in order to have a high amount of stamina for talent usage while running all this? Or am I gonna have to use them situationally (which I'd prefer not to have to do).

[ZMJ10]

lawl ive played caster mages, two handers, ranged rougues, backstabbers and now currently a duao weild warrior and so far my duel wield warrior is destroying enemeis pretty fast, my mage was strong but had very little survival unless used plenty of pots, my two handers were very fun to play they had high survial and hit big numbers, my backstabber was okay but ut ivnolved runnning around every mob n order to play his spec correctly. and my ranged was really weak until awake...... so i would say two hander or duel wield warr

[Nooneyouknow13]

endgamecutter wrote...

Alright, the templar option looks good-ish, and I'll probably follow it up with champion for more knockdowns (I don't like trading away my health, and I love the image of veteran commanders, especially with the whole warden thing) I'm a bit concerned about stamina regeneration though. I'll be using a bunch of sustains (dual strike, momentum, rally and beyond the veil most of the time) which leaves me with 12 degen (or 2 without beynd the veil). When I first tried the dual wielder, momentum on made my stamina drain within seconds of entering combat. I think this may have been due to being hit by lightning magic, but I don't know as a fact. Also, once beyond the veil kicks in, I'll definately need to worry about the degen destroying my stamina pool. Are there any good measures to take in order to have a high amount of stamina for talent usage while running all this? Or am I gonna have to use them situationally (which I'd prefer not to have to do).

That's why I was saying to basically get to 42 strength and 36 dex and then go mostly into Willpower.This will give you  large pool to work with, Deathblow helps keep it at a solid level, and makes the templar/spirit warrior abilities hit like trucks.  The best stamina regen gear leans to Sword and Board, and the Wade sets.  you could pick up either Wade's Superior Heavy or Massive set, and swap the chest to Knight Commander's when you see a mage if you'd like.  If you have Return to Ostagar duncan's Sword has +2 stam regen, which would offset Momentum by istelf. the satmina drain fro Momentum is -2 per tick, base regen is 1(I think, it might be .5 but I'm pretty sure it's 1) per tick, and the second rank of ocmbat Trianing adds .5 mana/stamina regen per tic.  Momentum by itself should never realy manage to drain you.  A combat sequence of Whirlwind->Dual Weapon Sweep->Holy Smite->Grenade will generally clean up every normal ranked or lower enemy in just tthat sequence. Well, with BErsekring at least, might take a second grenade without it.  Between Deathblow and a high Willpower, you should be good.

[endgamecutter]

okay then...so I guess All that's left is progression. I'm thinking 2 str/1 dex, 1str/2 dex until I get the required values (switching excess points from dex to willpower once i hit 36) and then 2 wil/1 str until the end, sound good? (possibly putting in more dex once I get to awakenings, though I'm not sure whether or not I really need those extra talents, they don't look to appealing.)

[Nooneyouknow13]

Yeah, that'll work well. A fair bit of warning however: if you do combine grenades with the specials, you may find the game becomes so easy it gets boring.

[endgamecutter]

...and once more, dual wield dissapoints me. This is he part where I assume I simply hate autoattacking on the console and roll a mage instead (I'll suffer The tower and ostagar again, not happily, mind you, but whats an hour or two now compared to the far longer and more enjoyable experience afterwards? I'm just debating over control vs. healing now, since I really hate the look of robes in DAO (which sucks, I miss wearing a snazzy outfit, where it looked like I had just come off the high class streets of a big city, instead of a dress) so AW is a guaranteed spec for the sake of wearing plate mail, or at least drakeskin armor (hey, it reduces spell costs, and leather armor doesn't look half bad) I'll probably also learn the whole AW tree so I can sub onto a warrior mode if I need to cut people (ah versatility, I love you so).

Just how much would I miss blood wound? I don't like constantly toggling blood magic whenever I want to freeze a crowd, nor do I like the whole evil image it's portrayed with, but I love completely trivializing enemies. Since I play on normal (hate friendly fire, but I still avoid it when I can) would I be able to generate a similar effect with mass paralize and tempest or something? Healing isn't up my alley, but It's useful in a pinch, just in case (and I like to be prepared, why else would it take me over a month to make such a trivial decision?) Would It be a good Idea to play a DPS, healer AND CCer (with a side order of warrior)? or would I be spread too thing doing this?

Edit: one more thing, how many talents can I expect to aquire in one playthrough? I want to have a general Idea of what I'm gonna take and what I won't be able to.

Modifié par endgamecutter, 11 mai 2010 - 02:42 .

[Surango]

Or you could "waste" a few stat points in strength for the armor. You get four in the fade, humans start with one so that's five. Less than two levels worth for some nice leather and the rune abilities in awakenings. I think I'll do just that for my mage.

[endgamecutter]

true, but then I lose out on the option for massive armor (I'm on normal, I can trade some effeciency for badassery), and I can't have the toggle badass knight mode (probably not going to use it much, but I like the option). I'm mainly questioning if I'll be able to pull off all those roles at effeciently or not, which is basicly whether or not I need Wynne, since damage and crowd control are practically synonimous in this game (blizzard, cone of cold, blood wound, prison...). So yeah, can I pull them all off? yay or nay? (also, would the knockdown effect from I fireball shatter frozen enemies? or was it only criticals/stone fist that shatter things? I figure cone then fireball would make a nice encounter ender)

...and does fatigue affect the cost of blood magic? as in having high fatigue will make it cost me more health to cast?

Modifié par endgamecutter, 12 mai 2010 - 01:45 .

[Nooneyouknow13]

endgamecutter wrote...


...and does fatigue affect the cost of blood magic? as in having high fatigue will make it cost me more health to cast?

Yes. However, Blood Magic has a 20% discount over casting the spell with mana by default, and a 40% total discount over normal mana casting while using an item that "Improves Blood Magic" like the blood ring.  So with the Blood ring, you'd pay slightly more than the base cost of the spell in health at 100% fatigue.

[endgamecutter]

alright, so I guess if I take BM over SH then I can have a relatively cheap health cost when I wound things. I'm sort of thinking having most of my sustains (not combat magic unless I'm drawing my sword though) active at all times and using my health to kill stuff. I'm a bit nervous about accidentally killing myself with too much magic though, since healing is difficult when blood magic is active (sacrifice on a ranger's pet can be done, but I question whether or not I'll have the time to point and burn with that when I need healing). I probably won't use shimmering shield due to the high costs of sustaining. Does this sound feasible? if it is then I can ditch spirit healer and have wynne run haste and/or telekinetic weapons (all my mages get the full force line for prison awesomeness). What talents/skill would you suggest (if I decide I dislike this as well then I'll just be a normal mage and take force+primal all the way, so this is the clincher)

[ZMJ10]

endgamecutter wrote...

...and once more, dual wield dissapoints me. This is he part where I assume I simply hate autoattacking on the console and roll a mage instead (I'll suffer The tower and ostagar again, not happily, mind you, but whats an hour or two now compared to the far longer and more enjoyable experience afterwards? I'm just debating over control vs. healing now, since I really hate the look of robes in DAO (which sucks, I miss wearing a snazzy outfit, where it looked like I had just come off the high class streets of a big city, instead of a dress) so AW is a guaranteed spec for the sake of wearing plate mail, or at least drakeskin armor (hey, it reduces spell costs, and leather armor doesn't look half bad) I'll probably also learn the whole AW tree so I can sub onto a warrior mode if I need to cut people (ah versatility, I love you so).

Just how much would I miss blood wound? I don't like constantly toggling blood magic whenever I want to freeze a crowd, nor do I like the whole evil image it's portrayed with, but I love completely trivializing enemies. Since I play on normal (hate friendly fire, but I still avoid it when I can) would I be able to generate a similar effect with mass paralize and tempest or something? Healing isn't up my alley, but It's useful in a pinch, just in case (and I like to be prepared, why else would it take me over a month to make such a trivial decision?) Would It be a good Idea to play a DPS, healer AND CCer (with a side order of warrior)? or would I be spread too thing doing this?

Edit: one more thing, how many talents can I expect to aquire in one playthrough? I want to have a general Idea of what I'm gonna take and what I won't be able to.

"facepalm" you are thinking about it way to hard this is a single player rpg not  mmo your class doesnt really care as long as you enjoy it, that being said what ever is fun to play play it or everyone will be playing the second dragon age and u will still be stuck at freaking character creation....... This reminds me soo much of myslef when i attempted WoW when i was a wee little thing LOL seriously your dps isnt going to matter that much nor will your mistakes in point distribution in Normal. Enjoy the game beat it then get awakening.

[Nooneyouknow13]

endgamecutter wrote...

alright, so I guess if I take BM over SH then I can have a relatively cheap health cost when I wound things. I'm sort of thinking having most of my sustains (not combat magic unless I'm drawing my sword though) active at all times and using my health to kill stuff. I'm a bit nervous about accidentally killing myself with too much magic though, since healing is difficult when blood magic is active (sacrifice on a ranger's pet can be done, but I question whether or not I'll have the time to point and burn with that when I need healing). I probably won't use shimmering shield due to the high costs of sustaining. Does this sound feasible? if it is then I can ditch spirit healer and have wynne run haste and/or telekinetic weapons (all my mages get the full force line for prison awesomeness). What talents/skill would you suggest (if I decide I dislike this as well then I'll just be a normal mage and take force+primal all the way, so this is the clincher)

Just get used to toggling Blood Magic on and off. It only has a 10 seconds cooldown. If you queue a heal on yourself, as soon as the aniamtion starts pause the game, toggle BM off, and you'll get the full heal for example.  TK weapons is a worse option than Flaming Weapons against everything but the High Dragon and Flemeth honestly.  Blood Wound and Fireball/Walking Bomb/Wirulent Walking Bomb should handle every mook fight, Blood Control, Crushing Prison and the Hex line are fantastic for boss fights.  Don't cast from health unlesss you need to, or you're going to use a BM spell though. Just look for Regen gear like Andruil's Blessing.  It's pretty easy to throw out Arcane Bolts on cooldown without too much potions usage with decent regen.