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Bioware, It's Time for You and Other Gaming Companies to be Held Accountable


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#276
13Dannyboy13

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Realmzmaster wrote...
Unfortuantely, quite true. But that is why the frustration mounts. I am not saying respond to every bug thread, but a general announcement that the problems are being corrected and what progress is being made say once a month. It would help their PR and lower the frustration level somewhat. Progress reports every now and then would be nice. Simply say all the fixes will be made at one time in patch 1.4.

I think that is exactly the main concern right there. Instead of keeping us updated on what they're actually doing (if anything) to fix the game, they instead focus on marketing schemes and PR. Telling us to point out the bugs when there are countless threads that have been there for months detailing all the bugs people have been experiencing makes me wonder how much they actually bother to read on these boards.
All we get is a generic "we're looking into it" every couple of months instead of some solid info about their progress. A lot of the work has already been done for them by the modding community as well, they could easily see how people have fixed the game themselves and incorporate the necessary fixes into a patch. I'm not asking them to make the game perfect, but at least addressing a few of the major bugs that are game-breaking isn't too much to ask, as well as giving us some smaller fixes. Six months later they can't even give us the minor tweak that fixes the dex bug, it's little things like this along with the silence that just add to the frustrations.

#277
wowpwnslol

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Rendar666 wrote...

Is this another one of those "Making fun of the whining douche bag" threads? Or are you actually one of said whining douche bags?

Hmmm.


No, it's a thread where a legit concern is posted and Bioware ass kissers like you come to flame the thread starter.

#278
soteria

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That's interesting food for thought. BTW, you can return most books for a refund. Even if the reason was that they were trite and cliche and boring. However, I would hope, especially, if the books were missing pages, had pages out of order, had funny colored splotches all over the pages, had pages in different fonts, had the chapters out of order, or had pages in the wrong language. I mean, don't you think a publisher ought to be embarrassed to release a book with quality like that?



I was in a theater one time where the film we were watching melted 20 minutes before the end. I mean literally, melted. It was impossible to watch the film to the end. The theatre gave us free passes to come back and see the film again, or even a different one, later on at the same theatre. Don't you think you owe the consumers something if their experience is incomplete? BTW, if you were watching a film, and you found that entire 5 minute segments out of the film were upside down, or looked like they were filmed through a muddy glass, wouldn't you want your money back? (Again, that's something different from finding the film to be more boring, trite, cliche, etc. than you expected.)




I've never actually returned a book, but I don't do many returns in general unless I just didn't need something. I know people who will buy a hammer, use it for a job, and then return it, and I just think that's tacky. It never occurred to me to take a book back if I didn't like it. Good to know.



For your book analogy, I bet you could return a video game if you could demonstrate that the software was essentially DOA. Additionally, for your analogy to be accurate, we'd have to assume *every* copy of the book had pages out of order and missing. In that case, you would rightly blame the publisher for messing up the publication process, and I'm quite sure they'd lose a lot of money and try to avoid that mistake in the future. I guess I can't quite agree with your comparison to missing pages, because that's a publisher error, not a design error. In this case we'd have to be looking for mistakes caused by EA in the game publishing process, and I wouldn't be surprised if you *could* get a refund for a game that was jacked up at that stage of the game.



Maybe I shouldn't take the analogy too literally, though, since I think your point was more the magnitude of the error than where and how it happened. In response to that, I'd refer to what AlanC9 said: even among our fellow gamers that are familiar with the game and the bugs, we can't determine how serious they are. To one person Sigrun's quest not triggering is gamebreaking, while another might not have even noticed.



Those are interesting and thought provoking questions, soteria. One would hope that companies would see putting out a quality product, good communication and good customer service as paramount to customer satisfaction.




Some companies do. I played World of Warcraft for five years, and although a few bugs stayed in the game for a long time for technical reasons, players mostly knew about those bugs and knew Blizzard knew about them. Most bugs that could be fixed got fixed in days. In fact, I could read about a bug in a recent patch while at work and see a hotfix applied by the time I got home. I've played more single player games than multiplayer, but it seems like in general the single player ones are (relatively) lousy for bug fixes and patches. Part of that could be a lack of incentive for the developer, and part could be that truthfully they don't matter as much in a non-competitive environment.



I'm with you on the ridiculousness of trying to bring something like this to court. What makes it worse is that in the US at least video games are seen as kids' entertainment and unhealthy to boot.



What can we do? Short term, I personally don't plan on getting any DLC until I see certain issues fixed. Otherwise, is there *any* way we can establish some sort of baseline for what makes a game unplayable?

#279
Tirigon

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Realmzmaster wrote...

It is not just MOTpoetryION's habit of sceenshotting glitches, he has also been known to use the console to achieve certain effects by running the scripts. He did it in a thread I started back two months ago. It can be seen here:

http://social.biowar...index/1109684/1

The keep Lothering alive challenge. He interjects discussion that has nothing to do with the topic and has been showing the same screenshots of bugs already known. This why AlanC9 is unimpressed, because MOTpoetryION has used the console to get certain results. I knew I had seen the name before and that he hijacked the thread. It took me some time to go back and find it.


Actually he has a thread where he explains how he did it without console.
Mind you, I didn´t bother to try if it really works (cause I frankly don´t care for producing glitches, I rather try avoiding them) but before accusing him of cheating you should read this thread and try if the described method works.

If you have done that and found out he lied you can say so; if not we should assume he´s right and not flame him on account of his bad grammar.
MOTpoetryION does at least refrain from flaming everyone with a different opinion what is more than you can say about many of the people here.

#280
soteria

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If you can find this thread, I'd be interested. Who said anything about his grammar?

#281
CybAnt1

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Maybe I shouldn't take the analogy too literally, though, since I think your point was more the magnitude of the error than where and how it happened.


Precisely. Having pages out of order doesn't prevent you from finishing reading the book or enjoying it, but I think diminishes your reading experience. 

In response to that, I'd refer to what AlanC9 said: even among our fellow gamers that are familiar with the game and the bugs, we can't determine how serious they are. To one person Sigrun's quest not triggering is gamebreaking, while another might not have even noticed.


Sure. There are people who play this game as hack n slash (maybe even some of the early reviewers) and have no idea companions have "personal quests". They could care less. So if they're not even looking for them (or knowing such things exist), the bug doesn't register. Truth be told, though, not all companions in O had personal quests. Maybe they're just figuring Sigrun is a char without one. As you say, to know it's a bug requires some outside knowledge. And again it's not there for everybody - although a lot of people do Law & Order first - I know I did - and thus are running into it. 

Why has the forum response been so negative? I would suggest it's not because the Internet turns everyone into whiners. Or at least not just. :lol: It's because where are you likely to find people who might care about something like that and notice it .... here. 

What can we do?


For me it's quite simple. Refuse to accept the status quo. I will not. 

#282
Dragon Nostril

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soteria wrote...

If you can find this thread, I'd be interested. Who said anything about his grammar?


I know this is getting off topic but I think this is what you are looking for:

http://social.biowar...6/index/1955820

#283
Dubidox

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CybAnt1 wrote...
For me it's quite simple. Refuse to accept the status quo. I will not. 


Exactly, vote with your wallet!

Trying to regulate this kind of thing is likely to be more trouble than it's worth.  The regulations would either be too specific to be effective, or so nebulous that they would be worthless.  The quantitative metrics are just not there.

I'm no "Ra Ra Capitalism!!":wizard: fanboy, but in this case(entertainment software) I think that free market forces are the best way to deal with quality.  The problem right now is that, IMO, consumers are far too impulsive and unwilling to stick to their guns and vote with their wallet.

So, I haven't yet and won't ever buy Awakening until a patch comes out that puts it more on par with Origins as far as bugginess goes.  And seeing as how DAO was my first Bioware game, I'll hesitate to pre-order anymore of their products.  I'll just let the "MUST HAVE NOW!!!" people take the risk and buy after I've had time to see what their reaction was.

@OP: I wish you luck in your endeavour to put a little grassroots pressure out there.  I'm not holding out hope of some kind of abrupt about-face of the gaming industry as a result, but it seems you're doing nothing unreasonable to me.

Modifié par Dubidox, 23 avril 2010 - 02:33 .


#284
AlanC9

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Tirigon wrote...
Actually he has a thread where he explains how he did it without console.
Mind you, I didn´t bother to try if it really works (cause I frankly don´t care for producing glitches, I rather try avoiding them)


Well, that's the thing. Any glitch that you have to work at triggering isn't one that I care about, and I'm not quite sure why anyone else would.

#285
Realmzmaster

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Tirigon wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

It is not just MOTpoetryION's habit of sceenshotting glitches, he has also been known to use the console to achieve certain effects by running the scripts. He did it in a thread I started back two months ago. It can be seen here:

http://social.biowar...index/1109684/1

The keep Lothering alive challenge. He interjects discussion that has nothing to do with the topic and has been showing the same screenshots of bugs already known. This why AlanC9 is unimpressed, because MOTpoetryION has used the console to get certain results. I knew I had seen the name before and that he hijacked the thread. It took me some time to go back and find it.


Actually he has a thread where he explains how he did it without console.
Mind you, I didn´t bother to try if it really works (cause I frankly don´t care for producing glitches, I rather try avoiding them) but before accusing him of cheating you should read this thread and try if the described method works.

If you have done that and found out he lied you can say so; if not we should assume he´s right and not flame him on account of his bad grammar.
MOTpoetryION does at least refrain from flaming everyone with a different opinion what is more than you can say about many of the people here.


If you look at his first screenshot it shows Daveth and Jory in Lothering with the other four members of your party. Sten is in the cage. It can only be accomplished on the PC running runscript e3_addparty - which can add  Jory and Daveth to party. Also Daveth and Jory cannot gain levels and cannot be killed. Because they died at the Joining at level 4.
It cannot be done on the Xbox or PS3. And no I do not call him a liar I let his antics speak for themselves.
Also you will note that he states he has 1300 views with glitches and other what not.
AlanC9 correctly asked (if in a more forceful manner) why anyone would bother doing this. The same question can up in the thread I started. What was the purpose?
In the thread I started he tried to play coy when he said it was not done with a mod or toolset. No he had used the console. Forum members called him on it and he stop posting after that.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 23 avril 2010 - 06:38 .


#286
bzombo

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Realmzmaster wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
 

Even though I have not experienced the bugs that have been noted. I fully understand they exist. What frustrates most of the gamers on the forum is the absolute lack of communication about patches. A simple acknowledgement can go along way to easing frustration.
 

Bioware DOES comment on bugs, just not every post, every day.  The sheer volume of posts frustrates people.

But remember, this is EA's board, EA's game.  Bioware MUST follow EA's community management rules.

Considering how it's done w/ Madden, the rules are, acknowledge the most serious bugs after confimation, then go silent.

Ask users to report bugs, tell them you are reading the boards, but don't specifically reply to every bug thread.


Unfortuantely, quite true. But that is why the frustration mounts. I am not saying respond to every bug thread, but a general announcement that the problems are being corrected and what progress is being made say once a month. It would help their PR and lower the frustration level somewhat. Progress reports every now and then would be nice. Simply say all the fixes will be made at one time in patch 1.4.

it was only about 2 weeks ago victor said a patch was being worked on. before that, one of the devs working on the patch said they were working on it. there was no list of what, but i don't see why they have to tell us that. they have said it's being worked on. i don't think they're goofing off laughing at us while planning to give us no patch. i want a patch too. we all do.

the self important grandstanding and chest pounding gets old after a while, which may be why some look like fanboys. sometimes when you tell someone on the polar extreme of an argument to relax it makes you look like you're some fanboy maniac when all it is is telling the person to relax because they're acting like a meathead and dragging the forums down into an endless pit of screaming and fighting.

#287
Haexpane

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What makes people think Bioware would even CARE to respond to things like "this game is trash! Check out my screenshot of a clipping glitch using a user made mod! Bioware are THIEVES!"



Why would BW lower themselves to respond to baseless radical insults?


#288
Realmzmaster

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Haexpane wrote...

What makes people think Bioware would even CARE to respond to things like "this game is trash! Check out my screenshot of a clipping glitch using a user made mod! Bioware are THIEVES!"

Why would BW lower themselves to respond to baseless radical insults?


People tend to think thread titles like one's Haexpane notes will get everyone's attention. Which in many cases it does. Unfortunately it is equally as likely to ****** off a number of people especially if the title is followed by a rant that basically offers nothing constructive.
But sometimes thread titles like the above can simply turn the reader off and are ignored.
Developers are people who like ourselves do not like to be insulted. Constructive criticism is one thing, insults and denigration are (IMHO) unnecessary.

#289
13Dannyboy13

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bzombo wrote...
it was only about 2 weeks ago victor said a patch was being worked on. before that, one of the devs working on the patch said they were working on it. there was no list of what, but i don't see why they have to tell us that. they have said it's being worked on. i don't think they're goofing off laughing at us while planning to give us no patch. i want a patch too. we all do.

the self important grandstanding and chest pounding gets old after a while, which may be why some look like fanboys. sometimes when you tell someone on the polar extreme of an argument to relax it makes you look like you're some fanboy maniac when all it is is telling the person to relax because they're acting like a meathead and dragging the forums down into an endless pit of screaming and fighting.

The problem is that it's only talk with no solid info at all, and not to mention this is the same line we've been hearing for months now. I think many people are simply skeptical, since after six months we're still waiting for even the most basic fixes, and we get no real info about patches or fixes. It's amazing how the modding community can fix most of these bugs in a matter of days, yet the company that actually made the game has done nothing but marketing and PR in six months without any fixes for the game. Since, on at least two or three other occasions, a dev has come on the forums saying that they are "looking into fixing things" and then been completely silent, it takes away from people's ability to actually believe them. Not to mention most of those posts are very near the time they want our money or help, there was a post right after awakenings, still no fixes, there was anotherright around the time that they did the whole bazaar messs, now the most recent one has been when they want our votes for GOTY and for the awards. It may simply be coincidence, but the timing and lack of any real fix makes me at least question their sincerity about fixing this game.

#290
Rendar666

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wowpwnslol wrote...

Rendar666 wrote...

Is this another one of those "Making fun of the whining douche bag" threads? Or are you actually one of said whining douche bags?

Hmmm.


No, it's a thread where a legit concern is posted and Bioware ass kissers like you come to flame the thread starter.



I actually thought it was a joke. Sorry. Don't have be a flamer... I mean flaming jerk. Image IPB

#291
vometia

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Realmzmaster wrote...

But sometimes thread titles like the above can simply turn the reader off and are ignored.
Developers are people who like ourselves do not like to be insulted. Constructive criticism is one thing, insults and denigration are (IMHO) unnecessary.

I agree, though it should still be someone's job to take notice of end-user concerns; the lack of any visible attention from those in a position to help tends to inflame attitudes and that's when it does tend to become insulting, but ultimately as the recipient of their customers' money, the onus is on Bioware to avert that sort of thing before it becomes a problem.

Unfortunately, in today's litigation-obsessed world of consumer affairs, the tendency is to take the PR approach and variously attempt to ignore or mollify complainants instead of taking them seriously which ultimately winds people up even more and leads to a rather unhealthy relationship between a company and its customers.

I'd like to think that companies like Bioware will once again become more customer-focussed in time, but we seem to be quite a long way from that at present.

#292
melkathi

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Realmzmaster wrote...

Developers are people who like ourselves do not like to be insulted. Constructive criticism is one thing, insults and denigration are (IMHO) unnecessary.


Customers don't like to be insulted either. And the way bioware has been handling patches (or hasn't been handling them) is becomming insulting. Especially when their community coordinator only shows up in the community forum to beg for votes. :(

As things are, Bioware doesn't seem to be interested in any feedback whatsoever that doesn't stroke their ego, be it constructive or insulting. So I guess we are just wasting our time.
(and off to forget about this forum for a while again)

#293
traversc

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Realmzmaster wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

It is not just MOTpoetryION's habit of sceenshotting glitches, he has also been known to use the console to achieve certain effects by running the scripts. He did it in a thread I started back two months ago. It can be seen here:

http://social.biowar...index/1109684/1

The keep Lothering alive challenge. He interjects discussion that has nothing to do with the topic and has been showing the same screenshots of bugs already known. This why AlanC9 is unimpressed, because MOTpoetryION has used the console to get certain results. I knew I had seen the name before and that he hijacked the thread. It took me some time to go back and find it.


Actually he has a thread where he explains how he did it without console.
Mind you, I didn´t bother to try if it really works (cause I frankly don´t care for producing glitches, I rather try avoiding them) but before accusing him of cheating you should read this thread and try if the described method works.

If you have done that and found out he lied you can say so; if not we should assume he´s right and not flame him on account of his bad grammar.
MOTpoetryION does at least refrain from flaming everyone with a different opinion what is more than you can say about many of the people here.


If you look at his first screenshot it shows Daveth and Jory in Lothering with the other four members of your party. Sten is in the cage. It can only be accomplished on the PC running runscript e3_addparty - which can add  Jory and Daveth to party. Also Daveth and Jory cannot gain levels and cannot be killed. Because they died at the Joining at level 4.
It cannot be done on the Xbox or PS3. And no I do not call him a liar I let his antics speak for themselves.
Also you will note that he states he has 1300 views with glitches and other what not.
AlanC9 correctly asked (if in a more forceful manner) why anyone would bother doing this. The same question can up in the thread I started. What was the purpose?
In the thread I started he tried to play coy when he said it was not done with a mod or toolset. No he had used the console. Forum members called him on it and he stop posting after that.

FAIL. 

He didn't use the console.  He explicitly described how it was done without the console.  Time to grow up, admit you were wrong, and apologize.

#294
SamboScoots

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This is getting really old. Another forum troll whines about how they purchased such a terrible product. I'm willing to bet this same forum goer buys the next big BioWare title only to turn around and write another rant on this forum about how terrible the company is.



If the games are that bad, don't buy them. The company will get your point when the quarterly earnings are released. The bottom line speaks much louder than a lame and somewhat hilarious forum rant.

#295
Ninja Frog Guys

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 *edited* Wow, advocating piracy with urls included. What a great way to earn a vacation from the forums.

Modifié par Eurypterid, 25 avril 2010 - 03:36 .


#296
AlanC9

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traversc wrote...
He didn't use the console.  He explicitly described how it was done without the console.  Time to grow up, admit you were wrong, and apologize. 


Quite so. He exploited the teleportation feature. So if you try to make the game do stuff it isn't supposed to.... you can make it do things it isn't supposed to. Wow.

#297
vonFurious

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... From all corners of the Kingdom comes the cry of Revolt! The Community known as PC has now fought valiantly and yet in vain against the evil known as Update 1.03... The Land of 360 has been battling the Corrupting Save Demon since the dawn of the Dragon Age.... From the East, comes cries from the Ps3 Peoples lamenting the claw-like freezing grip of Firmware 3.3 (Are you ready for 3-D?)

Who will arise as our Champion? Who will combat this rising tide of technological error terror? The Maker is silent!! It only speaks when to entreat us of our rapturous support! It riddles us with infrequent and vexing platitudes, empty promises known by the now -familiar chant all across the land of "We are Looking into It"....

Nay, my dears, we are the forsaken! The Maker has truly turned its back on us!! We are left to our own devices, thoroughly modded and as HD as they may be, to slog on against The Demon Bugs of Dragon Age: Origins, and the Awakenings Expansion Pack, and the Down Loadable Content Modules, and the Updates, be they Console or PC. This, this be our burden to bear for believing in the Old Gods of BioWare....

Modifié par vonFurious, 25 avril 2010 - 05:15 .


#298
NvVanity

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vonFurious wrote...

... From all corners of the Kingdom comes the cry of Revolt! The Community known as PC has now fought valiantly and yet in vain against the evil known as Update 1.03... The Land of 360 has been battling the Corrupting Save Demon since the dawn of the Dragon Age.... From the East, comes cries from the Ps3 Peoples lamenting the claw-like freezing grip of Firmware 3.3 (Are you ready for 3-D?)

Who will arise as our Champion? Who will combat this rising tide of technological error terror? The Maker is silent!! It only speaks when to entreat us of our rapturous support! It riddles us with infrequent and vexing platitudes, empty promises known by the now -familiar chant all across the land of "We are Looking into It"....

Nay, my dears, we are the forsaken! The Maker has truly turned its back on us!! We are left to our own devices, thoroughly modded and as HD as they may be, to slog on against The Demon Bugs of Dragon Age: Origins, and the Awakenings Expansion Pack, and the Down Loadable Content Modules, and the Updates, be they Console or PC. This, this be our burden to bear for believing in the Old Gods of BioWare....



REPENT!

#299
traversc

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AlanC9 wrote...

traversc wrote...
He didn't use the console.  He explicitly described how it was done without the console.  Time to grow up, admit you were wrong, and apologize. 


Quite so. He exploited the teleportation feature. So if you try to make the game do stuff it isn't supposed to.... you can make it do things it isn't supposed to. Wow.

He didn't use the console.  He explicitly described how it was done
without the console.  Time to grow up, admit you were wrong, and
apologize.

#300
Rendar666

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SamboScoots wrote...

This is getting really old. Another forum troll whines about how they purchased such a terrible product. I'm willing to bet this same forum goer buys the next big BioWare title only to turn around and write another rant on this forum about how terrible the company is.

If the games are that bad, don't buy them. The company will get your point when the quarterly earnings are released. The bottom line speaks much louder than a lame and somewhat hilarious forum rant.



Oh! Oh, oh, oh! Don't say the OP is whining! You'll be insulted time and time again by the super genius TJSolo. You have been forewarned.

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