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Bioware, It's Time for You and Other Gaming Companies to be Held Accountable


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#26
Poleaxe

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traversc wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

Anyways, just so you're aware there is a very powerful group out there already policing developers and publishers, they're called the consumers.


Wrong. 

As Mr Mencken said, "no one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public." 

The general human population is no more a policing force for large companies than cattle are a policing force for farmers. 


If you're a computer gamer, then it should be easy to understand why you are wrong. Go to gamestop. See that one little pitifull shelf that holds computer games. The PC games section used to be all of the surrounding walls and console games were on that pitifull shelf. That's the market place letting companies know people like to sit their asses on the couch when they game. Notice that companies like Bethesda and BW now make console games- that's business bowing to the will of the consumer.

#27
GreatSword127

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I laugh at bugs. I really do.

#28
traversc

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Poleaxe wrote...

traversc wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

Anyways, just so you're aware there is a very powerful group out there already policing developers and publishers, they're called the consumers.


Wrong. 

As Mr Mencken said, "no one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public." 

The general human population is no more a policing force for large companies than cattle are a policing force for farmers. 


If you're a computer gamer, then it should be easy to understand why you are wrong. Go to gamestop. See that one little pitifull shelf that holds computer games. The PC games section used to be all of the surrounding walls and console games were on that pitifull shelf. That's the market place letting companies know people like to sit their asses on the couch when they game. Notice that companies like Bethesda and BW now make console games- that's business bowing to the will of the consumer.


None of what you said is relevant to what I said in the least. 

#29
Poleaxe

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traversc wrote...

Poleaxe wrote...

traversc wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

Anyways, just so you're aware there is a very powerful group out there already policing developers and publishers, they're called the consumers.


Wrong. 

As Mr Mencken said, "no one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public." 

The general human population is no more a policing force for large companies than cattle are a policing force for farmers. 


If you're a computer gamer, then it should be easy to understand why you are wrong. Go to gamestop. See that one little pitifull shelf that holds computer games. The PC games section used to be all of the surrounding walls and console games were on that pitifull shelf. That's the market place letting companies know people like to sit their asses on the couch when they game. Notice that companies like Bethesda and BW now make console games- that's business bowing to the will of the consumer.


None of what you said is relevant to what I said in the least. 


I already understood that you believe this to be true.

#30
traversc

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Poleaxe wrote...

traversc wrote...

Poleaxe wrote...

traversc wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

Anyways, just so you're aware there is a very powerful group out there already policing developers and publishers, they're called the consumers.


Wrong. 

As Mr Mencken said, "no one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public." 

The general human population is no more a policing force for large companies than cattle are a policing force for farmers. 


If you're a computer gamer, then it should be easy to understand why you are wrong. Go to gamestop. See that one little pitifull shelf that holds computer games. The PC games section used to be all of the surrounding walls and console games were on that pitifull shelf. That's the market place letting companies know people like to sit their asses on the couch when they game. Notice that companies like Bethesda and BW now make console games- that's business bowing to the will of the consumer.


None of what you said is relevant to what I said in the least. 


I already understood that you believe this to be true.


Then why post?  Do you actually believe that you're convincing? 

Or maybe you just don't know how to read, considering how unrelated everything you've just said is?  Which is it?

Modifié par traversc, 18 avril 2010 - 06:52 .


#31
TheMadCat

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You're missing the point.  The point is consumers will often willingly
accept being screwed.  And not only that, rationalize being screwed to
high heaven.  This directly contradicts the ridiculous "pure capitalism
is good" model you, and so many others on this board have purported. 
When we consumers accept being screwed, we are not a "policing force"
as you say, we are not even consumers and this is no longer
capitalism.  We are cattle and this is a farmstead.  We, consumers, are
being farmed.


Wow, ok. First I'm not sure where the hell you get the idea that people are both willingly and knowingly being screwed. You honestly believe people come to the conclusion that they are being screwed and fork the cash over anyways? Let's remember everyone has individual standards, something you may see as "a screw job" someone else may find completely reasonable and acceptable. So don't judge and hold anyone to your standards. See, unlike cows lined up for the slaughter we have a choice, we are able to think and rationalize in order to make a decision and act upon it. Ultimately if BioWare/EA, or whoever else does constantly screw consumers over to a degree that upsets the majority than there will be repercussions. This is not some theory or myth, this is reality and the second you stop expecting everyone to share your standards you'll realize this. But everyone does have standards and expect a certain level of quality, and that fact alone makes the consumers as a whole a "policing force" since shuning them destroys your revenue.

I will concede one small point to you, and that point is people do foolishly place "loyalty" into corporate entities, they get the tag fanboys in the gaming industry. These people hold specific developers (BioWare in this case) to such a personal level that it does skew their perception; the close your eyes, cover your ears, and shout lalala attitude. Because, as example, they see the BioWare logo on a product they will be willing to let much more slide than your average consumer would and it does contradict the fundamental role of the consumer. With that said these "fanboys" are in the vast minority and even they have a breaking point. Doesn't matter what logo is on the product, if you keep serving them crap they'll eventually realize it's crap.

Just because a product is not at YOUR standard doesn't mean the product is of poor quality. Your views and opinions are not the universal standard, hell there is no universal standard nor can one ever be placed within the gaming development market. But that doesn't mean the consumer group is chopped liver, on the contrary it is essential for it it's content to be maintained at a certain level otherwise they stop buying your products until you change. This isn't new or some dark, unknown secret.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 18 avril 2010 - 07:16 .


#32
Guest_EtteStarz_*

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Hmmm...never thought I'd come across a market theory exchange on this forum...fascinating.

#33
traversc

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TheMadCat wrote...
Wow, ok. First I'm not sure where the hell you get the idea that people are both willingly and knowingly being screwed.

That wasn't my argument. 

You honestly believe people come to the conclusion that they are being screwed and fork the cash over anyways?

No I don't.  Obstensibly, I'm saying people DON'T come to the conclusion. 

I will concede one small point to you, and that point is people do foolishly place "loyalty" into corporate entities, they get the tag fanboys in the gaming industry.

Glad to hear it. 

Just because a product is not at YOUR standard doesn't mean the product is of poor quality.

Just because ONE cattle believes getting brutally slaughtered is not good does not mean that it is in fact, not good. 

See, unlike cows lined up for the slaughter we have a choice, we
are able to think and rationalize in order to make a decision and act
upon it.

Some more than others. 

PS: The truly incredible ability people have to "rationalize" in no way supports your argument. 

http://dictionary.re...wse/rationalize

Modifié par traversc, 18 avril 2010 - 08:15 .


#34
Xandurpein

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The big question is that if you accept the theory that consumers are just gullible cattle that big companies are profiteering on (I don't!) then where would the incitement to form a government bureau watching over them come? These gullible people also happen to be the voters. If they don't see any problem in paying for the product why would they vote for beurau to police it? however you dress it, it comes down to the fact that until you get a consumer reaction, you are a minority and can't really expect everything to organized the way you want it. Calling for government regulation because the people are cattle who don't know their own good sounds a bit too elitist for my taste.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 18 avril 2010 - 08:36 .


#35
Dlokir

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Eurypterid wrote...

Dude, I can deal with the stupid little glitches in the cinimatics, no game is perfect, hell i think its kinda fun to look for them...  But the fact that the awsomest armor in the game looks like garbage unless your a midget or unless you had the foresight to NOT give this BS company your money buying the warden's keep expansion is totally unacceptable...  If you bought ALL the other DLC and are giving them as much support as possible, you should be rewarded with cooler gear, not screwing up the best, especially conscidering how uber gay most of the armor looks... 

***Edit*** Insults removed. Let's keep it civil, folks.


For few items? Cough cough. :D

#36
Dark Lilith

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good luck getting the BBB to do anything against a major Company.

#37
sassperella

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Astranagant wrote...

DAO works fine and the few significant bugs are missing or improperly working items, and there are mods to fix most of those.

Also implying that any MMOs are anywhere near the quality of a Bioware game.... lmao.


DAO works fine and is modable on the PC... try playing it on console where it still has all the release bugs 6 months later and no sign of a patch, where people lose their entire game through corrupt saves that can be fixed with a simple line of code to control merchants' inventories, where dex rogue builds are useless with daggers and the the bugs that you pc guys had at the start are still there.

#38
DanaScu

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Aeropostle wrote...

Not whining, acting. I've already contacted the national BBB and filed a complaint. On Monday, it's searching for a reporter interested in this story. You can continue to sit on your arse, take it, and make smart arse comments. You obviously feel you're not worth paying attention to, so I won't pay any further attention to you either.


Have you ever read the EULA? EA isn't responsible, and they don't have
to fix anything.  Let's see...

THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED TO YOU
“AS IS,” WITH ALL FAULTS, WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, WITHOUT
PERFORMANCE ASSURANCES OR GUARANTEES OF ANY KIND, AND YOUR USE IS AT
YOUR SOLE RISK. THE ENTIRE RISK OF SATISFACTORY QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE RESIDES WITH YOU. EA AND EA’S LICENSORS (COLLECTIVELY “EA” FOR PURPOSES OF THIS SECTION AND SECTION 8) DO NOT MAKE, AND HEREBY DISCLAIM, ANY AND ALL EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY WARRANTIES, INCLUDING IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF CONDITION, UNINTERRUPTED USE, MERCHANTABILITY, SATISFACTORY QUALITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, NONINFRINGEMENT OF THIRD PARTY RIGHTS, AND WARRANTIES (IF ANY) ARISING FROM A COURSE OF DEALING, USAGE, OR TRADE PRACTICE.

And

EA DOES NOT WARRANT AGAINST
INTERFERENCE WITH YOUR ENJOYMENT OF THE SOFTWARE; THAT THE SOFTWARE WILL
MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS; THAT OPERATION OF THE SOFTWARE WILL BE
UNINTERRUPTED OR ERROR-FREE, OR THAT THE SOFTWARE WILL INTEROPERATE OR
BE COMPATIBLE WITH ANY OTHER SOFTWARE OR THAT ANY ERRORS IN THE SOFTWARE
WILL BE CORRECTED.

You may be able to get an attorney
interested, but unless its something like the drm installing programs
without your permission [which is now covered in the eula] I don't think
you're going to get very far. If you installed the software, you accepted the eula. Your only choice, if you don't agree, is to not install it.

#39
CybAnt1

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It's a funny thing. There are many clauses in many EULAs that would probably never hold up in a court of law, particularly where they say you many only install the software on a certain specific hardware only.



Someone should take a software developer to court one day - personally I think if they were evaluated properly, many clauses in a EULA would not be legally enforceable. They are not valid statements of contract. It's just that companies feel no one will ever take things that far.



Just imagine if you bought a lamp at the store and somewhere in the box was a card that reads "it's not our problem if your lamp explodes, if your lamp being within 10 ft of another lamp explodes, if putting our lamp in your room causes other lamps to explode, or if our lamp is incompatible with your electrical outlet, or you feel it doesn't give sufficient illumination. Tough ******. You opened the box, the lamp is yours, now and forever, no refund."






#40
Feraele

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I just want to contradict the OP on this one item in his OP. :)



Bug fixing. After 15 years of online gaming (MMOs) ...I have never yet seen a bug fixed "right the next day". Some MMOs take MUCH longer as ..long as up to 6 months to get around to fixing certain bugs that interfere with..balance, pvp gameplay etc. I cite LOTRO as an example here. Wow also had some bugs right from the get-go just after release..those took a while to get fixed too. They have to track them down, and it all depends how well the feedback from players, describes the bug or bugs..so that the Devs, code monkeys whatever the title is, can actually find them and..then figure what needs fixing.



Game like Vanguard...chock full of bugs, bad pathing..etc. Mobs hitting you from inside stone walls, ceilings. Beta testers reported these bugs for months on end, product was STILL released with those very same bugs still existing.



All depends if the QA dept is doing their job, if the bug reporting gives some factual information, and then finding and resolving said bug or bugs.



So right the next day...never happens..

#41
fishx255

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Feraele wrote...

I just want to contradict the OP on this one item in his OP. :)

Bug fixing. After 15 years of online gaming (MMOs) ...I have never yet seen a bug fixed "right the next day". Some MMOs take MUCH longer as ..long as up to 6 months to get around to fixing certain bugs that interfere with..balance, pvp gameplay etc. I cite LOTRO as an example here. Wow also had some bugs right from the get-go just after release..those took a while to get fixed too. They have to track them down, and it all depends how well the feedback from players, describes the bug or bugs..so that the Devs, code monkeys whatever the title is, can actually find them and..then figure what needs fixing.

Game like Vanguard...chock full of bugs, bad pathing..etc. Mobs hitting you from inside stone walls, ceilings. Beta testers reported these bugs for months on end, product was STILL released with those very same bugs still existing.

All depends if the QA dept is doing their job, if the bug reporting gives some factual information, and then finding and resolving said bug or bugs.

So right the next day...never happens..


Gamebreaking bugs in wow have in fact been fixed the next day or hours after releasing some patchs.

#42
Feraele

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fishx255 wrote...

Feraele wrote...

I just want to contradict the OP on this one item in his OP. :)

Bug fixing. After 15 years of online gaming (MMOs) ...I have never yet seen a bug fixed "right the next day". Some MMOs take MUCH longer as ..long as up to 6 months to get around to fixing certain bugs that interfere with..balance, pvp gameplay etc. I cite LOTRO as an example here. Wow also had some bugs right from the get-go just after release..those took a while to get fixed too. They have to track them down, and it all depends how well the feedback from players, describes the bug or bugs..so that the Devs, code monkeys whatever the title is, can actually find them and..then figure what needs fixing.

Game like Vanguard...chock full of bugs, bad pathing..etc. Mobs hitting you from inside stone walls, ceilings. Beta testers reported these bugs for months on end, product was STILL released with those very same bugs still existing.

All depends if the QA dept is doing their job, if the bug reporting gives some factual information, and then finding and resolving said bug or bugs.

So right the next day...never happens..


Gamebreaking bugs in wow have in fact been fixed the next day or hours after releasing some patchs.


They weren't when I played it. :)  And that was in 2004..when it released.  

#43
DanaScu

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CybAnt1 wrote...

It's a funny thing. There are many clauses in many EULAs that would probably never hold up in a court of law, particularly where they say you many only install the software on a certain specific hardware only.

Someone should take a software developer to court one day - personally I think if they were evaluated properly, many clauses in a EULA would not be legally enforceable. They are not valid statements of contract. It's just that companies feel no one will ever take things that far.

Just imagine if you bought a lamp at the store and somewhere in the box was a card that reads "it's not our problem if your lamp explodes, if your lamp being within 10 ft of another lamp explodes, if putting our lamp in your room causes other lamps to explode, or if our lamp is incompatible with your electrical outlet, or you feel it doesn't give sufficient illumination. Tough ******. You opened the box, the lamp is yours, now and forever, no refund."


Like I said, attorneys and lawsuits. :shrug: The thing is, though, that most people don't have the time or resources to fight over stuff like this. As far as the lamp goes, is there a different level of "responsible" for physical items, like a lamp that could potentially cause physical injury and property damage, and intangible items, like the software of a game? Endangering health and well-being as opposed to "my armor won't show up" I mean. 

I usually hope that game-breaking bugs will be fixed, but don't think that all the bugs will be fixed, ever. [game breaking like the KotoR pc game won't start without a patch bug]

#44
CybAnt1

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Like I said, attorneys and lawsuits. :shrug: The thing is, though, that most people don't have the time or resources to fight over stuff like this.


They know that. That's why they put unenforceable clauses in their EULAs. Most people will never challenge them. 

As far as the lamp goes, is there a different level of "responsible" for physical items, like a lamp that could potentially cause physical injury and property damage, and intangible items, like the software of a game? Endangering health and well-being as opposed to "my armor won't show up" I mean. 


Well sure. And then there's games, and productivity software. You could argue makers of productivity software should have a higher burden. I mean, if DA doesn't work, you miss out on some fun. If Quark Xpress doesn't work, you can't put out a magazine this month, and you may lose millions of dollars. It kind of changes things. What's amazing though is that even the productivity software makers try the same bullsh*t as game developers. "You accept the software as is". 

But here's the other amazing thing. OK, malfunctioning software on a PC won't end your life. (Although it might if the software controls your vehicle's acceleration, or something in your hospital room.) Doesn't mean it couldn't have serious consequences. Malfunctioning software could, theoretically, delete critical data on your hard drive, make your PC unworkable, cause other productivity programs to stop working, etc. Not life threatening or injurious to your physical body, but you can see some significant problems there, though. But read those EULAs. The companies are not to be held liable even if any of these things happen. 

#45
khathaway71

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CybAnt1 wrote...

It's just that companies feel no one will ever take things that far.




How can they feel that? Wasn't too long ago I read an article in the newspaper about a man suing I think it was WoW because his characters couldn't move fast enough and it depressed him and caused him anxiety. lol

*edit to add link*
http://www.sk-gaming...vision_Blizzard

Modifié par khathaway71, 18 avril 2010 - 02:36 .


#46
Murphys_Law

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TheMadCat wrote...

Hehe, Better Business Bureau, one of the most useless organizations in the world.

Anyways, just so you're aware there is a very powerful group out there already policing developers and publishers, they're called the consumers. You see, without these consumers on your side you make no money, and as a company if you're not making money you either need to change or you go down with your dignity. And that is all the industry needs, a shoddy product is in no way physically or mentally harmful, there is no risk for any longterm damage. The consumer base is arguably the most powerful entity in the business sector, there is no reason anyone or anything needs to be holding our hand. If you choose to blindly purchase a product without waiting for input from other players and various sites than the only one who can truly be blamed is you. Educate yourself, you have the tools and resources to do so right at your finger tips. There is no reason to lay blame on BioWare or any other company because of your ignorance.

And if you want to get the media involved, you've got to come up with a better story than consumer fraud. This is 2010 man, get with the times we want "real" stories. You want to lay it into BioWare call up Fox News and tell them Dragon Age has homosexual poronography in it or something, that'll get the ball rolling.


How is the Better Business Bureau "one of the most useless organizations in the world"?

Modifié par Murphys_Law, 18 avril 2010 - 02:42 .


#47
Tirigon

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@ OP: The thing is, a company has the right to make buggy stuff. If enough people buy it it´s still good profit.
There even is something in the EULA that says the game is provided "as is" and you have no right for patches or anything.

I agree that this sorta sucks, but there is nothing you can do against it.

Nothing legally at least. You can always choose to get your games for free at Rapidshare instead of wasting money.


Edit: DanaScu posted the thing in the EULA I was referring to, quoted for truth:

THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED TO YOU
“AS IS,” WITH ALL FAULTS, WITHOUT
WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, WITHOUT
PERFORMANCE ASSURANCES OR GUARANTEES
OF ANY KIND, AND YOUR USE IS AT
YOUR SOLE RISK. THE ENTIRE RISK OF
SATISFACTORY QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE RESIDES WITH YOU. EA AND EA’S
LICENSORS (COLLECTIVELY “EA” FOR PURPOSES OF THIS SECTION AND SECTION 8)
DO NOT MAKE, AND HEREBY DISCLAIM, ANY AND ALL EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR
STATUTORY WARRANTIES, INCLUDING IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF CONDITION,
UNINTERRUPTED USE, MERCHANTABILITY, SATISFACTORY QUALITY, FITNESS FOR A
PARTICULAR PURPOSE, NONINFRINGEMENT OF THIRD PARTY RIGHTS, AND
WARRANTIES (IF ANY) ARISING FROM A COURSE OF DEALING, USAGE, OR TRADE
PRACTICE.

And

EA DOES NOT WARRANT AGAINST
INTERFERENCE
WITH YOUR ENJOYMENT OF THE SOFTWARE; THAT THE SOFTWARE WILL
MEET
YOUR REQUIREMENTS; THAT OPERATION OF THE SOFTWARE WILL BE
UNINTERRUPTED
OR ERROR-FREE, OR THAT THE SOFTWARE WILL INTEROPERATE OR
BE
COMPATIBLE WITH ANY OTHER SOFTWARE OR THAT ANY ERRORS IN THE SOFTWARE

WILL BE CORRECTED.


Modifié par Tirigon, 18 avril 2010 - 03:21 .


#48
Aeropostle

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TheMadCat wrote...

Hehe, Better Business Bureau, one of the most useless organizations in the world.

The consumer base is arguably the most powerful entity in the business sector, there is no reason anyone or anything needs to be holding our hand. If you choose to blindly purchase a product without waiting for input from other players and various sites than the only one who can truly be blamed is you. Educate yourself, you have the tools and resources to do so right at your finger tips. There is no reason to lay blame on BioWare or any other company because of your ignorance.


Anyway, so you're saying consumer goods should be sold in a buyer beware environment?  Not too long ago, in the history of our good country, consumer goods were sold in a buyer beware environment.  Snake oil, products with cocaine in them, etc. - killed a lot of people, or at the very least, bilked them out of their money.  Should they have researched those goods and services being sold to them as being safe and effective before they bought them?  These things are why there is the FDA and other government watchdog associations.  To minimize this as much as possible.  To date, our consumer products are much more safe than they used to be.  

Buyer beware is not a legitimate case for companies to be irresponsible.  With the information we have now we can shoulder some of that burden, but if I get sick drinking your product - who is going to pay and why?  The company that sold it to me is going to pay because they would be found at fault for selling an unsafe product.  You think the judge and jury is going to side with the drink maker because the buyer should have been aware the product is unsafe? 

BTW, I do research my games before I buy them.  But when I bought this game, there was no information on game-breaking bugs such as losing all of your gear when entering the Silvertine Mines, and having to go back to a previous save, change out you gear, then go back in, then go back out and change back into your original gear.  Or, instant 100% approval ratings by NPC's.  You know why?  Because, God forbid, I wanted to play it when it came out.  Stupid me.

Modifié par Aeropostle, 18 avril 2010 - 03:28 .


#49
hexaligned

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DanaScu wrote...

Aeropostle wrote...

Not whining, acting. I've already contacted the national BBB and filed a complaint. On Monday, it's searching for a reporter interested in this story. You can continue to sit on your arse, take it, and make smart arse comments. You obviously feel you're not worth paying attention to, so I won't pay any further attention to you either.


Have you ever read the EULA? EA isn't responsible, and they don't have
to fix anything.  Let's see...

THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED TO YOU
“AS IS,” WITH ALL FAULTS, WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, WITHOUT
PERFORMANCE ASSURANCES OR GUARANTEES OF ANY KIND, AND YOUR USE IS AT
YOUR SOLE RISK. THE ENTIRE RISK OF SATISFACTORY QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE RESIDES WITH YOU. EA AND EA’S LICENSORS (COLLECTIVELY “EA” FOR PURPOSES OF THIS SECTION AND SECTION 8) DO NOT MAKE, AND HEREBY DISCLAIM, ANY AND ALL EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY WARRANTIES, INCLUDING IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF CONDITION, UNINTERRUPTED USE, MERCHANTABILITY, SATISFACTORY QUALITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, NONINFRINGEMENT OF THIRD PARTY RIGHTS, AND WARRANTIES (IF ANY) ARISING FROM A COURSE OF DEALING, USAGE, OR TRADE PRACTICE.

And

EA DOES NOT WARRANT AGAINST
INTERFERENCE WITH YOUR ENJOYMENT OF THE SOFTWARE; THAT THE SOFTWARE WILL
MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS; THAT OPERATION OF THE SOFTWARE WILL BE
UNINTERRUPTED OR ERROR-FREE, OR THAT THE SOFTWARE WILL INTEROPERATE OR
BE COMPATIBLE WITH ANY OTHER SOFTWARE OR THAT ANY ERRORS IN THE SOFTWARE
WILL BE CORRECTED.

You may be able to get an attorney
interested, but unless its something like the drm installing programs
without your permission [which is now covered in the eula] I don't think
you're going to get very far. If you installed the software, you accepted the eula. Your only choice, if you don't agree, is to not install it.


If you believe that I have a piece of paper I'd like to hand you that says I can rob you blind, without being held responsible legally.   EULA's don't create laws..ah.... if only it was that easy.   There are in fact laws out there that have guidlines as to product quality  to protect consumers.  Stating they don't apply to you doesn't make it so.  Now taking on a corporation like EA that can (and does) pour millions into it's legal department, might not be the best course of action though, If the OP seriously has a problem with the game, I would  suggest to just stop buying EA products.  Much easier and less expensive.

#50
TheMadCat

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That wasn't my argument. 


What do you mean that wasn't your argument? It's in the first sentence in your inital comment. Let me show you...

You're missing the point.  The point is consumers will often willingly accept being screwed.


Clear as day.

No I don't.  Obstensibly, I'm saying people DON'T come to the conclusion. 


Of course they do, the fact they purchase a product means they reached a conclusion, the conclusion being "Hey, I'll buy this product." Whether they edecuated themselves or not when arriving to this conclusion is not concern of anyone except said individual.

Just because ONE cattle believes getting brutally slaughtered is not good does not mean that it is in fact, not good. 


Again with the compairson to cattle, holy hell man. Explain to me exactly how you come to the compairson that a consumer who has the options and the ability to edecuate themselves is in anyway comparable to cattle which are unthinking and unaware creatures that have no option.

Some more than others. 

PS: The truly incredible ability people have to "rationalize" in no way supports your argument.


Why not? Don't simply come and say it doesn't, explain why you feel that way. If I'm going to defend myself I need to know from where to attack.

How is the Better Business Bureau "one of the most useless organizations in the world"?


They have no actual power or influence and have zero affiliation with the government. It's an organization established by corporations to create a "feel good" atmosphere and give the illusion that there is an entity regulating the markets and that the consumer may goto if they feel a corporation in employing unsavory methods. The reality is the BBB is riddled with scandal. It's well documented they solicit money from these same corporations they are monitoring, corporations which become a member of the BBB are given free passes in their reports in exchange for their dues, they do far more to protect companies than they do consumer "rights", and won't touch any of the big boys (Such as EA) with a mile long pole. The BBB is a joke and why people turn to them and feel it's a vital organization is beyond me.

Anyway, so you're saying consumer goods should be sold in a buyer
beware environment?  Not too long ago, in the history of our good
country, consumer goods were sold in a buyer beware environment.  Snake
oil, products with cocaine in them, etc. - killed a lot of people, or
at the very least, bilked them out of their money.  Should they have
researched those goods and services being sold to them as being safe
and effective before they bought them?  These things are why there is
the FDA and other government watchdog associations.  To minimize this
as much as possible.  To date, our consumer products are much more safe
than they used to be.  

Buyer beware is not a legitimate case
for companies to be irresponsible.  With the information we have now we
can shoulder some of that burden, but if I get sick drinking your
product - who is going to pay and why?  The company that sold it to me
is going to pay because they would be found at fault for selling an
unsafe product.  You think the judge and jury is going to side with the
drink maker because the buyer should have been aware the product is
unsafe?


Right, well if you go back and read my post you'll note I make mentition of the fact that unlike things government agencies such as the FDA regulate are dangerous to your health and life. So yes, government entities are needed to enforce consumer goods which, if made poorly, can effect your health and livliehood. Tell me, have you gotten sick from Awakening or any other game? Broken bones? Send you into spiraling depression? Few weeks in the hospital? A realtive die from using the product? No, none of those? Bummer. Well perhaps you got a nasty paper cut from the manual.

Notice the difference between your example and the field of industry your demanding be regulated. You bought a product that didn't mean your standards, it sucks I know, been there done that. But that's end of the story mate, you are not harmed, you are not lessened, you are the exact same as you were before, minus $40. Learn your lesson, next time show some restraint and make sure the producting you are buying is within your expected standards of quality.

BTW, I do research my games before I buy them.  But
when I bought this game, there was no information on game-breaking bugs
such as losing all of your gear when entering the Silvertine Mines, and
having to go back to a previous save, change out you gear, then go back
in, then go back out and change back into your original gear.  Or,
instant 100% approval ratings by NPC's.  You know why?  Because, God
forbid, I wanted to play it when it came out.  Stupid me.


Funny story, I too did my research for a game I was eagerly waiting for. So the two weeks prior to Awakening's launch I checked out a few forums and a few sites, read this and that. A couple of folks here on the forum managed to get the game early and kindly shared their experiences, they mentioned the instability and various bugs such as the Silvertine mines and the approval bugs as well as a few other aspects that turned me off. A few game reviews that came out a couple of days prior to the launch also made note of the bugs. So now that I'm all edumacated and such I made the decision to not purchase the expansion I was eagerly awaiting until the price dropped and the issues corrected because it fell short of what I'm expecting from BioWare. Hilarious, isn't it?

Modifié par TheMadCat, 18 avril 2010 - 05:54 .