340 réponses à ce sujet

[traversc]

What do you mean that wasn't your argument? It's in the first sentence in your inital comment. Let me show you...

Here is my argument.
-"The point is consumers will often willingly accept being screwed."

Here is your caracature of my argument.
-"First I'm not sure where the hell you get the idea that people are both willingly and knowingly being screwed."

See the difference?

Why not? Don't simply come and say it doesn't, explain why you feel that way. If I'm going to defend myself I need to know from where to attack.

Read the dictionary entry please.

http://dictionary.re...wse/rationalize

Explain to me exactly how you come to the compairson that a consumer who has the options and the ability to edecuate themselves is in anyway comparable to cattle which are unthinking and unaware creatures that have no option.

On the other hand, explain to me exactly how you come to the comparison that people who willingly accept being screwed are in anyway comparable to perfectly rational self-interest.

Personally, I find that comparison even more offensive. It certainly points out that the fallacy of the argument: "UR Rong because.... CAPITALISM LOL" that you and many others here have purported.

Speaking for real now, obviously there is a spectrum between pure-rational and cattle. I'm arguing that in many ways, consumers have passed a threshold and are more like cattle.

Modifié par traversc, 18 avril 2010 - 06:22 .

[TheMadCat]

Here is my argument.
-"The point is consumers will often willingly accept being screwed."

Here is your caracature of my argument.
-"First I'm not sure where the hell you get the idea that people are both willingly and knowingly being screwed."

See the difference?

What? How is there a difference? Are you trying to tell me people can willingly accept something without knowing it? You think people are accepting the notion they're being screwed without knowing they are actually being screwed?

Read the dictionary entry please.

http://dictionary.re...wse/rationalize

So you link me a definition, awesome. I'll ask again, exactly why does a persons ability to rationalize does not support my argument about people ability to educate themselves in order to make a rational decision (See entry #3) when purchasing a product.

On the other hand, explain to me exactly how you come to the comparison
that people who willingly accept being screwed are in anyway comparable
to perfectly rational self-interest.

Personally, I find that
comparison even more offensive. It certainly points out that the
fallacy of the argument: "UR Rong because.... CAPITALISM LOL" that you
and many others here have purported.

Speaking for real now,
obviously there is a spectrum between pure-rational and cattle. I'm
arguing that in many ways, consumers have passed a threshold and are
more like cattle.

Oh Captialism sucks, I won't argue that. There is a reason afterall why no nation in the world employees a true capitalist model. But we're not talking about captialism, the theory of capitalism has nothing to do with my argument. We're discussing a consumers ability to educate themselves on products and use that knowledge to make a rational decision when deciding to purchase it vs. the need for someone to hold the consumers hand because they are to lazy and/or ignorant to educate themselves.

You keep speaking for everyone, saying they cannot make a decision and they are willingly allowing themselves to be screwed and putting them on the level of cattle fresh for the slaughter. I mean, where is the evidence to this? On the flip side it's been shown time and again if you agitate the consumer base and put out products well below the general expectance you will see an impact financially. A recent example is this, why do you think Toyta's sales tanked and almost disappeared after it's problems became public? Is it because they mindlessly fell for Ford's advertising? Hell no, Toyota put out a seriously flawed and dangerous product and the consumers went elsewhere. If you have some hard evidence supporting your notion then lay it out.

[AlanC9]

I have this terrible feeling of deja vu.... didn't all these arguments come up in that DLC thread?

I'm not sure what being an educated consumer has to do with the topic, actually. An educated consumer would just find out that a certain amount of bugs in a game is typical, and accepted by other consumers.

Edit: I mean the topic of changing what gaming companies do. Though I guess we could start by educating the OP. He thinks his opposition is the game companies, but it's actually gamers themselves.

Modifié par AlanC9, 18 avril 2010 - 07:30 .

[Rendar666]

Aeropostle wrote...

Not whining, acting.

Yep, you are.

I've already contacted the national BBB and filed a complaint.

Wow. You really take a few glitches seriously.

On Monday, it's searching for a reporter interested in this story.

Yeah, we'll see where that goes.

You can continue to sit on your arse, take it, and make smart arse comments.

Um... I am not taking anything as I've had no problems. And I didn't a smart "arse" comment, I just thought that, by the pure rediculous nature of your post, you were joking.

You obviously feel you're not worth paying attention to, so I won't pay any further attention to you either.

Go ahead. See if I truly care.
 
You ARE indeed complaining.

I've seen enough of these threads to know that you and your ilk certainly feel obliged enough to try and ruin everyone’s day with your blatant, unwanted negativity. Who gives a bloody.... crud?.... if you are filing a complaint because a game has some glitches? I have not had one single glitch in the entire game through multiple playthroughs.

And the "BBB", Better Business Bureau for those who don't know, is completely useless. Do you actually believe that they will... do what exactly? Say "RELEASE A PATCH FOR YOUR GAME BIOWARE!" ? Okay, go ahead and waste your time on something so frivolous.

Sure, the game has glitches, so do a lot of games. You don't see everyone lining up to complain and then actually going so far as to file a complaint about these games.

Is it simply the members of the Bioware forums who are just so... irritating and arrogant?
There are going to be glitches in every game you play. Patches will be on the way to fix said glitches in Dragon Age. But, for you to go to these lengths for… what exactly? To try and get satisfaction? To make Bioware look bad? It just makes me laugh, honestly.
Through your posts I have decided that you aren’t worth paying attention to. At all, really. So I shall not pay your whining any heed after this. I just had to let you know my opinion about people like you.

Ciao.
 

[TJSolo]

Jeez some sheep are just too dense for words.

The OP is acting on his complaints not whining.

Goodluck with the BBB in this matter, not sure what they can accomplish.

The change you want would probably come about faster if the American consumers weren't sheeple.

[Rendar666]

Shadowwot wrote...

When I compare the number of bugs in this game compared to most other companies games (I'm looking at you Bethesda) I'd say that Bioware is still better than the industry standard.

Yeah, but Bethesda's games are completely understandable. They are some of the biggest open world games ever. Look at Morrowind; for how vast it was I was surprised that there wasn't more glitches. The more content in a game the bigger chance that there will be a LOT of glitches. It's just something that we, as consumers, have to deal with. Buy or don't buy. If enough people think that the game was so terrible then Bioware will know. I, however, intend to continue buying their games. A few glitches never killed anyone. Well, they have killed me in Oblivion as well as my NPC horse, Shadow... something. It shouldn't die...

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

Awakenings has bugs?

[traversc]

TheMadCat wrote...

What? How is there a difference? Are you trying to tell me people can willingly accept something without knowing it?

Yes.

You think people are accepting the notion they're being screwed without knowing they are actually being screwed?

No. They are being screwed without knowing they are actually being screwed.  They don't realize they are being screwed.  There is a difference.

Read the dictionary entry please.

http://dictionary.re...wse/rationalize

...

So you link me a definition, awesome. I'll ask again, exactly why does a persons ability to rationalize does not support my argument about people ability to educate themselves in order to make a rational decision (See entry #3) when purchasing a product.

I asked you, read the definition.  You seem incapable.  To "rationalize" has NOTHING to do with making rational decisions (except to say that they dont).  Sorry, it's true.  Try to pick and choose definitions all you like, but are you honest enough to admit that "rationalize" has a common, clear definition?  I wonder.  Entry #3 does not support your argument. 

Oh Captialism sucks, I won't argue that. There is a reason afterall why no nation in the world employees a true capitalist model. But we're not talking about captialism, the theory of capitalism has nothing to do with my argument. We're discussing a consumers ability to educate themselves on products and use that knowledge to make a rational decision when deciding to purchase it vs. the need for someone to hold the consumers hand because they are to lazy and/or ignorant to educate themselves.

You say capitalism is not part of your argument, but then you go on to describe exactly what capitalism is. 

... saying they cannot make a decision and they are willingly allowing themselves to be screwed and putting them on the level of cattle fresh for the slaughter. I mean, where is the evidence to this? 
...
If you have some hard evidence supporting your notion then lay it out.

Oh I have plenty of evidence.  You better as hell believe it. 

http://planeteldersc...ial.Detail&id=9
http://dragonage.bio...addon/feastday/
http://www.apple.com/ipad/

Modifié par traversc, 18 avril 2010 - 09:19 .

[fishx255]

Oh I have plenty of evidence.  You better as hell believe it. 

http://planeteldersc...ial.Detail&id=9
http://dragonage.bio...addon/feastday/
http://www.apple.com/ipad/

http://us.blizzard.c...l?id=1100000942

Modifié par fishx255, 18 avril 2010 - 09:59 .

[Rendar666]

TJSolo wrote...

Jeez some sheep are just too dense for words.
The OP is acting on his complaints not whining.

Not true *in a singsong voice*

Goodluck with the BBB in this matter, not sure what they can accomplish. *I know = nothing*
The change you want would probably come about faster if the American consumers weren't sheeple.

What's a "sheeple"? New kind of human? Advanced life-forms? Hmm. What'll they think of next!??! **I guess you're trying to combine sheep and people? NICE ONE!
 
Whine: Grumble (complain, moan, gripe object) peevishly (irritably, crossly, grumpily) To complain or protest about something, often in an annoyingly plaintive voice. Look it up if you want. I’m not an idiot. The OP was whining. Bloody deal with it.
If you would like to further debate your hopeless case, be my guest. Just don’t insult my intelligence.
Calling the “consumer” a sheep is very insulting.

Truth be told, you most likely are a 14-15 year old teen who took early economics and thinks he knows everything about the world. Sure, some people will just buy up anything if it looks "neato". But when the OP starts saying how only idiots “feed the machine” (I’m paraphrasing) by buying games with… oh no! wait for it! GLITCHES! I cannot help but laugh.

Let me tell you something buddy, every game has glitches. Deal with it, don't go try and get a company in dire trouble for something like that. For one thing it's completely stupid. But hey, that must be right up your alley.

The OP is acting so infantile about something so minor as some glitches in a game that it is making me nauseous.
Let’s go down the bloody yellow brick road to complain to BBB about how Bioware didn’t find all the glitches in their game. BBB only deals with REAL issues, not this crap. I’m so sick of you people. Jesus it makes me sick to the core. I'm puking my guts out right now.

Put a sock in it.

Jeez some sheep are just too dense for words.

If only you knew what irony meant.

**Hopefully this thread gets LOCKED DOWN soon enough. Go complain on your "anti-game/people/life" blogs and leave alone everyone else who doesn't want to see your garbage.

Modifié par Rendar666, 18 avril 2010 - 10:15 .

[BomimoDK]

shut up, you fail, all of you. shut up with definitions, BBB and complaints about a very average number of bugs. I've seen many games with just as many bugs become lauded by consumers and critics. just get over it

[Rendar666]

BomimoDK wrote...

shut up, you fail, all of you. shut up with definitions, BBB and complaints about a very average number of bugs. I've seen many games with just as many bugs become lauded by consumers and critics. just get over it

Despite your douchery... I agree.

[TJSolo]

Rendar666 wrote...

Not true *in a singsong voice*

Well since there is a BW post in this thread asking for the OP the clarify his concerns. It looks less like whining and more like an attempt at lodging a legit complaint.
Try and repeat all the crap you want and how you disagree with the OP but merely trying to call it whining is weak and does not address the OPs points.

What's a "sheeple"? New kind of human? Advanced life-forms? Hmm. What'll they think of next!??! **I guess you're trying to combine sheep and people? NICE ONE!

It is a term that is very easy to dechiper the meaning behind.
 

Whine: Grumble (complain, moan, gripe object) peevishly (irritably, crossly, grumpily) To complain or protest about something, often in an annoyingly plaintive voice. Look it up if you want. I’m not an idiot. The OP was whining. Bloody deal with it.
If you would like to further debate your hopeless case, be my guest. Just don’t insult my intelligence.
Calling the “consumer” a sheep is very insulting.

Having a complaint and voicing that complaint is not whining. You left out part of the definition, provide links instead of you half assed paraphrasing. Whining is done in a childish fashion or tone. The label of "whining" people on boards claim is most often wrong and simply used as a personal attack instead of addressing the points.

Truth be told, you most likely are a 14-15 year old teen who took early economics and thinks he knows everything about the world. Sure, some people will just buy up anything if it looks "neato". But when the OP starts saying how only idiots “feed the machine” (I’m paraphrasing) by buying games with… oh no! wait for it! GLITCHES! I cannot help but laugh.

I put in a few lines about how I feel about the nature of the American consumer. That is hardly everything the topic of Econmics covers.
What I sound like to you is entirely baised by your opinions on this matter and you inabilty to talk about this without casting somekind of insult.

Let me tell you something buddy, every game has glitches. Deal with it, don't go try and get a company in dire trouble for something like that. For one thing it's completely stupid. But hey, that must be right up your alley.

Having glitches is one thing, not fixing them or increasing them is an entirely different matter.
Get them in trouble? What the hell are you spewing, it is there job to provide a product and maintain it. It is not a matter of getting in trouble for lack of maintenance just a matter of correcting the lack of action.
In this regard I am not sure what kind of action the BBB can take, it looks more like an issue for consumers for vote with their cash.

The OP is acting so infantile...

Put a sock in it.

If only you knew what irony meant.

Irony would be you calling the OP infantile for the way he posts yet you include insults tell me to "put a sock in it". That is irony.

**Hopefully this thread gets LOCKED DOWN soon enough. Go complain on your "anti-game/people/life" blogs and leave alone everyone else who doesn't want to see your garbage.

Only because of dense forum posters that attempt to derail and get threads they don't like locked down. Instead of the threads running their course of having civil discussion.
If this thread was deemed unworthy to be on this board it would have been locked when Eurypterid posted.

Modifié par TJSolo, 18 avril 2010 - 11:50 .

[Feraele]

Aeropostle wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

Hehe, Better Business Bureau, one of the most useless organizations in the world.

The consumer base is arguably the most powerful entity in the business sector, there is no reason anyone or anything needs to be holding our hand. If you choose to blindly purchase a product without waiting for input from other players and various sites than the only one who can truly be blamed is you. Educate yourself, you have the tools and resources to do so right at your finger tips. There is no reason to lay blame on BioWare or any other company because of your ignorance.

Anyway, so you're saying consumer goods should be sold in a buyer beware environment?  Not too long ago, in the history of our good country, consumer goods were sold in a buyer beware environment.  Snake oil, products with cocaine in them, etc. - killed a lot of people, or at the very least, bilked them out of their money.  Should they have researched those goods and services being sold to them as being safe and effective before they bought them?  These things are why there is the FDA and other government watchdog associations.  To minimize this as much as possible.  To date, our consumer products are much more safe than they used to be.  

Buyer beware is not a legitimate case for companies to be irresponsible.  With the information we have now we can shoulder some of that burden, but if I get sick drinking your product - who is going to pay and why?  The company that sold it to me is going to pay because they would be found at fault for selling an unsafe product.  You think the judge and jury is going to side with the drink maker because the buyer should have been aware the product is unsafe? 

BTW, I do research my games before I buy them.  But when I bought this game, there was no information on game-breaking bugs such as losing all of your gear when entering the Silvertine Mines, and having to go back to a previous save, change out you gear, then go back in, then go back out and change back into your original gear.  Or, instant 100% approval ratings by NPC's.  You know why?  Because, God forbid, I wanted to play it when it came out.  Stupid me.

I think you need to focus your "crusade" and your podium thumping elsewhere.  

Over time, bugs do indeed get fixed.    You might not be playing when that occurs. 

Every game I have ever played over the past fifteen years that were online or standalone, had bugs/glitches..some minor some game breaking.

Software is only as good as the person that programs it.    People are humans,  humans aren't infallible...so glitches, bugs happen.

Time to stop ranting about it and go do something else.

If you have encountered a bug,  go to the tech forum for your platform, explain it in DETAIL,  and post a screenshot if you have one.      In order to get bugs fixed...each one needs to be detailed so that it can be reproduced, so that the end result is ...FIXED.

If you come back at me and state something along the lines of "well *sniff!* "I" am not a beta tester.......then suit yourself, you are part of the problem and not part of the solution.

Obviously if there are bugs and glitches they were somehow missed by the Quality Assurance team.    If you run across a bug...the SANE thing to do if you want it to be fixed..is report it..with every detail.

Thats how it works.   Most games have millions of lines of code from what I understand,  searching for a bug amongst all that, is pretty much like looking for a needle in a haystack,  if you can't pinpoint...where, why how...etc.

Just sayin.

[traversc]

fishx255 wrote...

Oh I have plenty of evidence.  You better as hell believe it. 

http://planeteldersc...ial.Detail&id=9
http://dragonage.bio...addon/feastday/
http://www.apple.com/ipad/

http://us.blizzard.c...l?id=1100000942

LMAO nice one XD

[Analytic]

TheMadCat wrote...

Hehe, Better Business Bureau, one of the most useless organizations in the world.

Anyways, just so you're aware there is a very powerful group out there already policing developers and publishers, they're called the consumers. You see, without these consumers on your side you make no money, and as a company if you're not making money you either need to change or you go down with your dignity. And that is all the industry needs, a shoddy product is in no way physically or mentally harmful, there is no risk for any longterm damage. The consumer base is arguably the most powerful entity in the business sector, there is no reason anyone or anything needs to be holding our hand. If you choose to blindly purchase a product without waiting for input from other players and various sites than the only one who can truly be blamed is you. Educate yourself, you have the tools and resources to do so right at your finger tips. There is no reason to lay blame on BioWare or any other company because of your ignorance.

And if you want to get the media involved, you've got to come up with a better story than consumer fraud. This is 2010 man, get with the times we want "real" stories. You want to lay it into BioWare call up Fox News and tell them Dragon Age has homosexual poronography in it or something, that'll get the ball rolling.

Lol, this.

[Aeropostle]

Eurypterid wrote...

Obviously you're upset, but can you point out these problems? In your entire post, you never once mentioned a specific problem, nor did you post your system specs and whether or not you're running any mods. Some of this information could possibly end being something important and could possibly lead to someone pointing out a solution for you.

Stating that there are 'major bugs' without even bothering to list them is no help to anyone and makes your post little more than a rant and tough to take seriously.  

Certainly.  I'm running DA Origins, with two DLC's - Return to Ostagar and the one with the haunted fort that becomes a storage unit (sorry, not in the game right now, don't remember the name).  I bought Awakenings, and I experienced the following:

- The worst, in my opinion, was losing all my equipment in the Silvertine Mines.  I hadn't done a hard save for awhile (my fault, I know), so now I have to go back 3 hours of play and try to remember all the tweaks I set up.  This, so I can put my real gear in personal storage, travel to Wending Wood with subpar gear, do the Silvertine Mines Quest, then travel back to storage to switch back to my original gear.  Seriously, what is it with RPG games making you lose your gear?  Something almost always bad happens with that, players don't like it, and it's completely unoriginal.  I'm going to put the game aside for awhile until - or if - there's a patch.

-  Doing Law and Order before Sigrun made doing her companion quest impossible, so I missed out on some of the content I should have been able to experience was another annoying bug.

-  Missing set items that I ran around forever looking for only to come to the forums and find out they are indeed missing...completely.  Very annoying.

-  The 100% approval = neutral bug.  Ohgren, who we know from DAO, can never get above neutral, but Justice can get to 100% just by looking at him?  C'mon, is there anyone who reviews this stuff before it goes out the door?

-  And, then there are the memory leaks and random crashes.

These alone are enough for me to take the game back...if I could.  And you have multitudes of pages filled with fuming posters complaining about hundreds of issues.  

Did we ever see an apology?  No.  Did we ever hear from Bioware that you're going to fix them?  No.  I've scoured the forums about these issues I've been having and the best anybody from Bioware could give was, "we're working on it."  This is all added to the fact that the game's been out far too long without any meaningful patches to fix what are widely considered major bugs.

You got my money this time, Bioware, but not another dime to your company until I'm 100% sure your future games are playable with no major bugs.  It can be done, Bioware, a few devs and games do manage to come out at least 98% bug free which is acceptable given the number of platforms the games have to work on.

In fact, if you only apologized for the obvious mistakes and told us what you're doing to fix them, and do it in a timely manner, most of us would probably be OK with that.  As long as the patch came out to fix some of these obvious bugs.  This PR wouldn't cost a dime and would, in fact, win you a lot of fans.  However, as is typical of game devs these days, you shipped out a sub-par product so you could make your money as soon as possible, counting on the mostly passive gamers to suck it up like they always do, hope for a patch, and if all else fails, make their own.  We understand people make mistakes, but when you don't fix them or completely ignore them, we're not so understanding.

My system:  e6700, 2 gigs Corsaire 1800, evga 8800GTX,  500 gig WD Raptor 10,000 r.p.m. for gaming, Sounblaster XFI, Thermaltake Toughpower 750 watt, evga nfroce 680i motherboard

Modifié par Aeropostle, 18 avril 2010 - 11:14 .

[BomimoDK]

Rendar666 wrote...

BomimoDK wrote...

shut up, you fail, all of you. shut up with definitions, BBB and complaints about a very average number of bugs. I've seen many games with just as many bugs become lauded by consumers and critics. just get over it

Despite your douchery... I agree.

i just did the exact same thing that other people are saying... i just don't waste page after page on paraphrasing. i admit it was rather harsh, but i'd rather call it blunt and honest. this game is a'ight. i have heard confirmation from Bioware themselves, somewhere in this forum, that 1.04 is in the making and with fixes. this thread belongs in offtopic for econimic and psycological discusion along with scholar level flaming.
bug REPORTS (not to be mistaken for whine topics, which doesn't belong anywhere for the public to be seen at all) belong in tech support forums.

I'm teh backdoor moderator*, signing off.

*no, i'm not. i'm just annoyed and thought i'd start yelling too.

above poster is right. a status report and list of what you're working to fix would quiet a lot of us. why don't you at least let us know what's being done? this isn't CIA (or sparta) you can talk, and you better... or else i'll start crying. i'm noisy when i'm crying.

and annoying.

Modifié par BomimoDK, 18 avril 2010 - 11:15 .

[MonkeyChief117]

There is a lot of hate here but there shouldn't. If you havn't experienced these massive, game breking bugs, you probably shouldn't even be reading this thread, let alone commenting. Just because you don't don't have bad stuff happening, doesn't mean that there aren't seriously bad bugs that NEED to be fixed asap.



And if you do have problems, post specifics instead of random abuse at BW, EA or other forum users. Try and be constructive please. (I sound like a moderator lol).

[Feraele]

The game has been out for 6 months...during that time we have had 3 bug patches..all the way up to 1.03.



Now granted, it seems that it is EA's CSR that handles these things..overall. And I don't have faith in EA at all, after my prior experiences with them...their CSR is not based in North America..they're from somewhere else, and I believe when conversing with customers by e-mail ..they use scripted responses.



Scripted responses ..do not cover all the bases, sometimes they cover nothing at all...especially when the person using them, doesn't speak English.



I won't go into the long story about how I know this, just lets say my last experience with EA's so-called "helpful" CSR ..left me wanting to tear my hair out and vowing that I would never again..be subjected to that. But here I am playing another EA game.



So..just wondering ..why it is ..that EA, Microsoft and large conglomerates like that..need to cut corners with their customer service?



Its been a trend these last years ..even governments do it.



All of a sudden GOOD customer service has gone out the window, and instead we are left with multiple buttons to push on a phone ...for recorded answer after recorded answer ..OR you have someone from an Asian country, attempting to help you with scripted responses, that perhaps he himself can't read, because he doesn't understand the language?



Comedy gold, if I weren't the person on the receiving end.

[Feraele]

BomimoDK wrote...

Rendar666 wrote...

BomimoDK wrote...

shut up, you fail, all of you. shut up with definitions, BBB and complaints about a very average number of bugs. I've seen many games with just as many bugs become lauded by consumers and critics. just get over it

Despite your douchery... I agree.

i just did the exact same thing that other people are saying... i just don't waste page after page on paraphrasing. i admit it was rather harsh, but i'd rather call it blunt and honest. this game is a'ight. i have heard confirmation from Bioware themselves, somewhere in this forum, that 1.04 is in the making and with fixes. this thread belongs in offtopic for econimic and psycological discusion along with scholar level flaming.
bug REPORTS (not to be mistaken for whine topics, which doesn't belong anywhere for the public to be seen at all) belong in tech support forums.

I'm teh backdoor moderator*, signing off.

*no, i'm not. i'm just annoyed and thought i'd start yelling too.

above poster is right. a status report and list of what you're working to fix would quiet a lot of us. why don't you at least let us know what's being done? this isn't CIA (or sparta) you can talk, and you better... or else i'll start crying. i'm noisy when i'm crying.

and annoying.

Couldn't agree more.
I think if people truly want to BUG REPORT they as you and I suggested ..should be doing this in the tech forum that relates to the platform they use. 

Pick a bug..any bug.    Run through it..write the details down..hit printscreen..get a picture.    Then report it.

General complaints about bugs and effects, don't do anything to get them fixed.   Hard evidence points the finger at the right problem...so it can be tracked and verified.  

Once that happens they are put on a list in order of priority...whatever priority Bioware deems it is.    Once they get their "turn" on the list..the attempt is made to fix them.

Thats how I understand it.

So you have a bug.   Okay...don't be vague,  state clearly and with detail in the tech forums...for your platform, what it is, where you encountered it..etc etc.

That is the only way its going to be tracked down and eliminated.

[bzombo]

Aeropostle wrote...

Not whining, acting. I've already contacted the national BBB and filed a complaint. On Monday, it's searching for a reporter interested in this story. You can continue to sit on your arse, take it, and make smart arse comments. You obviously feel you're not worth paying attention to, so I won't pay any further attention to you either.

you're way off on this one. this is self entitlement at its purest. speak with your wallet, not with whining. this is all just part of the instant gratification generation. the patch is coming. they've even said there was. how much more do you want? what case will the bbb have when a patch has been released and fixed many problems? the bbb is for businesses that do things like charge you for something and then never give you anything and act as if they're in the right. or taking your money, closing up shop and disappearing for good with your money. things like that. not because you don't like what has been released.

[bzombo]

Aeropostle wrote...

Eurypterid wrote...

Obviously you're upset, but can you point out these problems? In your entire post, you never once mentioned a specific problem, nor did you post your system specs and whether or not you're running any mods. Some of this information could possibly end being something important and could possibly lead to someone pointing out a solution for you.

Stating that there are 'major bugs' without even bothering to list them is no help to anyone and makes your post little more than a rant and tough to take seriously.  

Certainly.  I'm running DA Origins, with two DLC's - Return to Ostagar and the one with the haunted fort that becomes a storage unit (sorry, not in the game right now, don't remember the name).  I bought Awakenings, and I experienced the following:

- The worst, in my opinion, was losing all my equipment in the Silvertine Mines.  I hadn't done a hard save for awhile (my fault, I know), so now I have to go back 3 hours of play and try to remember all the tweaks I set up.  This, so I can put my real gear in personal storage, travel to Wending Wood with subpar gear, do the Silvertine Mines Quest, then travel back to storage to switch back to my original gear.  Seriously, what is it with RPG games making you lose your gear?  Something almost always bad happens with that, players don't like it, and it's completely unoriginal.  I'm going to put the game aside for awhile until - or if - there's a patch.

-  Doing Law and Order before Sigrun made doing her companion quest impossible, so I missed out on some of the content I should have been able to experience was another annoying bug.

-  Missing set items that I ran around forever looking for only to come to the forums and find out they are indeed missing...completely.  Very annoying.

-  The 100% approval = neutral bug.  Ohgren, who we know from DAO, can never get above neutral, but Justice can get to 100% just by looking at him?  C'mon, is there anyone who reviews this stuff before it goes out the door?

-  And, then there are the memory leaks and random crashes.

These alone are enough for me to take the game back...if I could.  And you have multitudes of pages filled with fuming posters complaining about hundreds of issues.  

Did we ever see an apology?  No.  Did we ever hear from Bioware that you're going to fix them?  No.  I've scoured the forums about these issues I've been having and the best anybody from Bioware could give was, "we're working on it."  This is all added to the fact that the game's been out far too long without any meaningful patches to fix what are widely considered major bugs.

You got my money this time, Bioware, but not another dime to your company until I'm 100% sure your future games are playable with no major bugs.  It can be done, Bioware, a few devs and games do manage to come out at least 98% bug free which is acceptable given the number of platforms the games have to work on.

In fact, if you only apologized for the obvious mistakes and told us what you're doing to fix them, and do it in a timely manner, most of us would probably be OK with that.  As long as the patch came out to fix some of these obvious bugs.  This PR wouldn't cost a dime and would, in fact, win you a lot of fans.  However, as is typical of game devs these days, you shipped out a sub-par product so you could make your money as soon as possible, counting on the mostly passive gamers to suck it up like they always do, hope for a patch, and if all else fails, make their own.  We understand people make mistakes, but when you don't fix them or completely ignore them, we're not so understanding.

My system:  e6700, 2 gigs Corsaire 1800, evga 8800GTX,  500 gig WD Raptor 10,000 r.p.m. for gaming, Sounblaster XFI, Thermaltake Toughpower 750 watt, evga nfroce 680i motherboard

best solution for the mines is at the entrance to strip your character completely. you are stripped as soon as you enter anyway. by strippping and putting all your stuff in your inventory it is all found in a chest at the end by the merchant. you'll know in the beginning it worked because the cinematic with the architect will be detailed and not a black screen surrounding the architect and your pc. this is much better than leaving and coming back. i can confirm it works because it was how i resolved my playthrough at the mines.

edit: you'll also know it works because the 4th experimental warrior (or whatever the actual name is) will spawn with the 3rd one.

Modifié par bzombo, 18 avril 2010 - 11:43 .

[Aeropostle]

TheMadCat wrote...

That wasn't my argument. 

What do you mean that wasn't your argument? It's in the first sentence in your inital comment. Let me show you...

You're missing the point.  The point is consumers will often willingly accept being screwed.

Clear as day.

No I don't.  Obstensibly, I'm saying people DON'T come to the conclusion. 

Of course they do, the fact they purchase a product means they reached a conclusion, the conclusion being "Hey, I'll buy this product." Whether they edecuated themselves or not when arriving to this conclusion is not concern of anyone except said individual.

Just because ONE cattle believes getting brutally slaughtered is not good does not mean that it is in fact, not good. 

Again with the compairson to cattle, holy hell man. Explain to me exactly how you come to the compairson that a consumer who has the options and the ability to edecuate themselves is in anyway comparable to cattle which are unthinking and unaware creatures that have no option.

Some more than others. 

PS: The truly incredible ability people have to "rationalize" in no way supports your argument.

Why not? Don't simply come and say it doesn't, explain why you feel that way. If I'm going to defend myself I need to know from where to attack.

How is the Better Business Bureau "one of the most useless organizations in the world"?

They have no actual power or influence and have zero affiliation with the government. It's an organization established by corporations to create a "feel good" atmosphere and give the illusion that there is an entity regulating the markets and that the consumer may goto if they feel a corporation in employing unsavory methods. The reality is the BBB is riddled with scandal. It's well documented they solicit money from these same corporations they are monitoring, corporations which become a member of the BBB are given free passes in their reports in exchange for their dues, they do far more to protect companies than they do consumer "rights", and won't touch any of the big boys (Such as EA) with a mile long pole. The BBB is a joke and why people turn to them and feel it's a vital organization is beyond me.

Anyway, so you're saying consumer goods should be sold in a buyer
beware environment?  Not too long ago, in the history of our good
country, consumer goods were sold in a buyer beware environment.  Snake
oil, products with cocaine in them, etc. - killed a lot of people, or
at the very least, bilked them out of their money.  Should they have
researched those goods and services being sold to them as being safe
and effective before they bought them?  These things are why there is
the FDA and other government watchdog associations.  To minimize this
as much as possible.  To date, our consumer products are much more safe
than they used to be.  

Buyer beware is not a legitimate case
for companies to be irresponsible.  With the information we have now we
can shoulder some of that burden, but if I get sick drinking your
product - who is going to pay and why?  The company that sold it to me
is going to pay because they would be found at fault for selling an
unsafe product.  You think the judge and jury is going to side with the
drink maker because the buyer should have been aware the product is
unsafe?

Right, well if you go back and read my post you'll note I make mentition of the fact that unlike things government agencies such as the FDA regulate are dangerous to your health and life. So yes, government entities are needed to enforce consumer goods which, if made poorly, can effect your health and livliehood. Tell me, have you gotten sick from Awakening or any other game? Broken bones? Send you into spiraling depression? Few weeks in the hospital? A realtive die from using the product? No, none of those? Bummer. Well perhaps you got a nasty paper cut from the manual.

Notice the difference between your example and the field of industry your demanding be regulated. You bought a product that didn't mean your standards, it sucks I know, been there done that. But that's end of the story mate, you are not harmed, you are not lessened, you are the exact same as you were before, minus $40. Learn your lesson, next time show some restraint and make sure the producting you are buying is within your expected standards of quality.

BTW, I do research my games before I buy them.  But
when I bought this game, there was no information on game-breaking bugs
such as losing all of your gear when entering the Silvertine Mines, and
having to go back to a previous save, change out you gear, then go back
in, then go back out and change back into your original gear.  Or,
instant 100% approval ratings by NPC's.  You know why?  Because, God
forbid, I wanted to play it when it came out.  Stupid me.

Funny story, I too did my research for a game I was eagerly waiting for. So the two weeks prior to Awakening's launch I checked out a few forums and a few sites, read this and that. A couple of folks here on the forum managed to get the game early and kindly shared their experiences, they mentioned the instability and various bugs such as the Silvertine mines and the approval bugs as well as a few other aspects that turned me off. A few game reviews that came out a couple of days prior to the launch also made note of the bugs. So now that I'm all edumacated and such I made the decision to not purchase the expansion I was eagerly awaiting until the price dropped and the issues corrected because it fell short of what I'm expecting from BioWare. Hilarious, isn't it?

Yeah, funny story.  But you hit the point - it's a crap product and I'm out $40.  Here's where it goes wrong - I can't have my $40 back.  Virtually every consumer good we know of is returnable if there's a defect.  My point was that gaming companies need to be held accountable somehow since shipping out games 50% complete has become almost standard practice, yet they charge full price.  And, they even have you brainwashed into thinking it's your responsibility to make sure it's up to your standards before you buy it.  So how are you going to do that without playing it?  Read all the reviews you want.  I've read hundreds, sometimes the bugs turn out to be a lot worse than originally reported, sometimes they ended up being no big deal...to me.  But I had to play it to find out.  True, it's a risk/reward, but I bet you if this was actually taken to court, the EULA would be changed to be more fair to the consumers, and EA would be ordered to allow retailers to take the games back if they're defective.  It just takes people standing up and doing something about it.  You know we are required to be informed now if SecureROM or other sinister programs are included with our games?  Guess how that got changed.

By the way, the BBB does not have authority to make a company change what they do, they just monitor unresolved complaints so that people who want to research various companies can decide if they want to do business with them.  If all the unhappy purchasers of this game called the BBB with these unresolved complaints, it would in fact be registered against Bioware, EA or both.  So in this sense, the BBB is not useless.

Now do I want to sue over $40?  No.  But doing SOMETHING is also being a responsible consumer.

[Aeropostle]

DanaScu wrote...

Aeropostle wrote...

Not whining, acting. I've already contacted the national BBB and filed a complaint. On Monday, it's searching for a reporter interested in this story. You can continue to sit on your arse, take it, and make smart arse comments. You obviously feel you're not worth paying attention to, so I won't pay any further attention to you either.

Have you ever read the EULA? EA isn't responsible, and they don't have
to fix anything.  Let's see...

THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED TO YOU
“AS IS,” WITH ALL FAULTS, WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, WITHOUT
PERFORMANCE ASSURANCES OR GUARANTEES OF ANY KIND, AND YOUR USE IS AT
YOUR SOLE RISK. THE ENTIRE RISK OF SATISFACTORY QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE RESIDES WITH YOU. EA AND EA’S LICENSORS (COLLECTIVELY “EA” FOR PURPOSES OF THIS SECTION AND SECTION 8) DO NOT MAKE, AND HEREBY DISCLAIM, ANY AND ALL EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY WARRANTIES, INCLUDING IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF CONDITION, UNINTERRUPTED USE, MERCHANTABILITY, SATISFACTORY QUALITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, NONINFRINGEMENT OF THIRD PARTY RIGHTS, AND WARRANTIES (IF ANY) ARISING FROM A COURSE OF DEALING, USAGE, OR TRADE PRACTICE.

And

EA DOES NOT WARRANT AGAINST
INTERFERENCE WITH YOUR ENJOYMENT OF THE SOFTWARE; THAT THE SOFTWARE WILL
MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS; THAT OPERATION OF THE SOFTWARE WILL BE
UNINTERRUPTED OR ERROR-FREE, OR THAT THE SOFTWARE WILL INTEROPERATE OR
BE COMPATIBLE WITH ANY OTHER SOFTWARE OR THAT ANY ERRORS IN THE SOFTWARE
WILL BE CORRECTED.

You may be able to get an attorney
interested, but unless its something like the drm installing programs
without your permission [which is now covered in the eula] I don't think
you're going to get very far. If you installed the software, you accepted the eula. Your only choice, if you don't agree, is to not install it.

This would not, in fact, hold up in a court of law if someone decided to sue.  It's too one-sided to be considered valid in a court of law.  I know, I've dealt with several contracts/agreements, and one of my friends is a contract lawyer.  In contracts/agreements I've written, I've had them sent back to me from him for being too one-sided.  You can have someone sign it, or agree to it somehow, but it won't hold up in court.

It would be very interesting to see someone take on these giant, lazy companies who think pushing out crap products is perfectly acceptable because people still buy them....and then can't return them.  It would have to be someone with more money than me, however, or a hot-shot lawyer that wants to make a name for himself.