340 réponses à ce sujet

[traversc]

CybAnt1 wrote...

The current theory is that the 4th experimental doesn't spawn because it doesn't have enough stats to use the gear that transfers. However, I don't know why that doesn't affect experimentals 1-3, or why the end result wouldn't be a 4th experimental without your gear, as opposed to no experimental. All I know is I know enough about programming and scripting (which isn't much) to know that the script is supposed to spawn experimental #4, and it borks before doing so.

I'm pretty sure that "current" theory is flawed.  Whose theory anyway?.  The bug is immediately apparent when you first the mines.  If you are naked, then tyou have the bug > time to reload.  Furthermore, the bug does not occur every time.  It seems to be probabalistic - to a degree. 

[Realmzmaster]

Aeropostle wrote...

Good points, Realzmaster. It is indeed, buyer beware for games. Doesn't mean it's right, nor does it mean we are going to like it. But for now, that's the way it is. Too bad there's no short-term recourse for the consumers of this shame of a release. That's what I think is wrong, and is the point of my OP. What actions, other than waiting for everyone else to buy it first and report how badly they got ripped off, are there to hold gaming companies accountable? There should be a better way, and we should seek it. For me, DAO was acceptable in terms of polish. So enthused was I to play the expansion I bought it as almost soon as it came out, expecting the same quality. Nnng! I guess that was my fault for being stupid enough to buy a game that was supposed to be relatively polished. How silly does that sound? I'm stupid for buying a cruddy game because I didn't wait long enough for the bad reviews to come out for a game EA/Bioware marketed as a finished, polished product. How does EA/Bioware get out of hot water on this? This is not their fault for putting out a shoddy product? Rather, it's the fault of the consumer for buying it? How twisted is that?

Bioware/EA and any other software company can get away with it, because it is very tough to prove in any court. Consumer protection laws and Congress have a tough time wrapping themselves around the software industry.
It is easy to say the hardware is broken or the disc is cracked, but the game is bug ridden? In whose estimation?You say the game is bug ridden, the other person says it ran error free on my hardware and a third person says I encounter a few minor glitches. How do you enact a law to take this into account, when would the software be deemed broken and by who?
Who is to say the error is an error and not a feature (to take the matter to the extreme)? The companies gets away with it because how do you prove anything intentional? Why your Honor it worked perfectly well when it left the computer and was burned to DVD. Even if you could prove it what resources would you use?
Unless you have very deep pockets or can get a class action lawsuit, how are going to prove your case? Unless you find a smoking gun from an EA official saying Yes, ship Awakenings bugs and all. Bring in that revenue! Patch the puppy later if at all.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 19 avril 2010 - 11:15 .

[Aeropostle]

True, unfortunately.

[xCirdanx]

Rant on i guess:

To be fair the OP is right, though he expects a bit too much.

I work in the software industry, and i can tell you that only game companies can get aways with such a thing. And let´s face it, even tough Awakening is horrible bug-wise..it´s not even near the most horrible game i ever played from that point of view. (that doesn´t mean i´m not pissed because i can´t play it and paid for it!)

However, games like DA are big software. Bugs are inevitable. They have always been there and will always be there. It´s not possible to get ride of them be it a game, an OS/US or just a simple tool.

The real deal is how many of them are there and how they get handled. In this case Origins and the addon...they completely faild to meet the expectations and did almost nothing to this date to fix the faults in the code. Which is even more disturbing if you consider that several things have been fixed by the modding community. (sometimes in almost no time, then again..we don´t even know "if" we can import a savegame into the next one and if a mod doesn´t destroy that chance...)

That´s like saying "fix the stuff yourself". Would you buy anything from a company that works like that?

I don´t really blame the coders for this, the games were simply rushed out the door before they got a real and proper testing (or the QA should get fired)...it´s the publisher here that is to blame. Oh EA...i don´t think there is anything left to say about EA that hasn´t been said. They have a well earned reputation and deserve anything that gets thrown at them.

[And the day may come that Bioware doesn´t fullfill´s EA´s expectations anymore and will get closed down. (don´t give me your "opinion"...they have done this so often and "success" or "a good name" is nothing to them, they fired the whole C&C team for gods sake AND announced this a year before they did it...no wonder the last title is crap) However i hope this won´t be the case, but then again it could be a new beginning.] (just a thought..but hey i´m ranting away so...)

Still, Bioware could at last give out some sort of information. (what are we working on..are we fixing bugs YOU have) But they remain in silence. Of course there is still Victor in the tech forums..i sure as hell don´t envy that man for his job because he get´s all the s*it from everyone he isn´t responsible for.

From a technical point of view the game is ok, the addon is a mess and nothing is being done about..just read the patch notes of the 3(!) they have released..thats a joke.

Oh where was i..right..only game companies can get away with such a thing...because any professional programmer/designer/manager(!) could pack his things and go. And good luck finding a job then if everyone knows you suck. Oh and of course, no matter if you buy an Office, Windows, or something else you are usualy granted a 45day refund (at last here). You can´t do that with games. Especialy not with those you have to register online..or do you really think that´s just because of dlc..they don´t want you to sell your game again...that´s simple calculus. Some companies don´t make it that visible..like in this case..and some do..like the upcoming SC2 and the joke that Battlenet2 is.

Hm have i forgotten something..don´t think so..maybe the dumping down of games so even a retarded person could play it but then..that´s pretty much coverd and the "new" trend.

I guess that´s it..rant off.

Take care people. (oh and it´s not my first language so..sorry for mistakes)

[xCirdanx]

Realmzmaster wrote...
Bioware/EA and any other software company can get away with it, because it is very tough to prove in any court. Consumer protection laws and Congress have a tough time wrapping themselves around the software industry.
It is easy to say the hardware is broken or the disc is cracked, but the game is bug ridden?

It´s not that hard to prove, the problem is noone is coming along "let´s find it out". The other problem is that games are sold globaly...different laws..but it in the end it comes to america..where the companies are..and we all know how great your system is. (software law is a JOKE there...thats the only thing the EU was actualy good for..kicking MS in the balls here)

Another thing is, you can´t easily gain an audience for this problem...because in our society "gaming" is still laughed at and not taken serious. Not as a hobby and not as a job. I could name endless examples of coworkers who worked on the one or other game title but wouldn´t say it because other software devs would simple laugh at them "what? a game haha.." So much for social acceptance. And playing a game makes you a miserable person anyway be it sexual or you are a psycho then if you believe anything that get´s you told. (mostly in america..no offense to anyone who lives there please)

[lonexwolf2]

cry cry cry =[

[CybAnt1]

I'm pretty sure that "current" theory is flawed.  Whose theory anyway?. 

Not mine.

But you can find it here.

http://dragonage.wik.../Silverite_Mine

I think, as I pointed out, it doesn't make sense. 

It seems to be probabalistic - to a degree.  

That doesn't make sense either. The whole thing is being determined by a script. And AFAICS there's nothing in the script that's probabilistic. The game does use random chance in many areas, but I can't see where it comes into play in that script. 

Of course, admittedly, dunno, neither you nor I are looking at the source code. I'm not even sure where it could be viewed in the Toolset, or if I would understand it. My programming days are way behind me. 

The event is deterministic. What is causing it to trigger are certain items. No one knows what those items are, or if it requires more than one. That uncertainty doesn't mean it's random chance. 

[traversc]

CybAnt1 wrote...

That doesn't make sense either. The whole thing is being determined by a script. And AFAICS there's nothing in the script that's probabilistic. The game does use random chance in many areas, but I can't see where it comes into play in that script. 

Of course, admittedly, dunno, neither you nor I are looking at the source code. I'm not even sure where it could be viewed in the Toolset, or if I would understand it. My programming days are way behind me. 

The event is deterministic. What is causing it to trigger are certain items. No one knows what those items are, or if it requires more than one. That uncertainty doesn't mean it's random chance.

That's simply not true.  Do the test yourself.  Save right before entering the mine.  Enter the mine : have bug? b++.  Reload.  Do that 100 times, and you'll see that b / 100 is not 1. 

Besides, this is not without precedent.  Dual striking for example, is an event that has a probabalistic chance of occuring DESPITE nothing in the script indicates it should work like this.  This is due to the fact that the animation is bugged (or something like that) and so the "hit" event becomes corrupted. 

In my opinion, it seems like something similar is happening here.  One of the two unique animations during the cutscene is not working properly, which causes probabalistic chance of an important event not firing. 

Modifié par traversc, 20 avril 2010 - 03:50 .

[traversc]

Also, I don't have proof, but the way I would script the event would be like this:

Grab all equipped items with GetItemInEquipSlot. Then use MoveItem to put the items into the creature's inventory, ofc SetItemDroppable. Then EquipItem. Nowhere in the script should cause any other part of the script to fail. If EquipItem fails, then it just returns and the script should move on. There's no reason that failing to equip one item would have any effect on equipping another item, and there's no reason it should make you naked when you enter the mines.


I'm going to remove that note on the wiki. It directly contradicts my own experience.  1) Doesn't happen all the time, 2) my STR warrior CERTAINLY met all item requirements, and 3) Bug can STILL occur with no items equipped, although ofc, you don't lose any items.  Also no one has offered any reproducible circumstances.

Modifié par traversc, 20 avril 2010 - 04:06 .

[CybAnt1]

One of the two unique animations during the cutscene is not working properly, which causes probabalistic chance of an important event not firing. 

So in essence is most everybody wrong? This bug is not item dependent at all (as long as you're not naked -- I've never seen it trigger on any naked chars - they always evade it). It can happen to anyone, as a matter of random chance, regardless of what items they're holding? 

I have to admit it has me freaking mystified. I thought Awakening items were "immune". I was wrong. My Orlesian warrior strode in wearing only Awakening items/armor, saw the "dark" cutscene, woke up in the jail cell in his skivvies (no clothes), BUT this was the first time ... he was wearing his prior plate gloves and boots (only)! I mean ... WTF? P.S. everything else disappeared as usual. 

Had a save right before the mines ... believe me I take this precaution NOW ... went in to the mines in skivvies, no bug, everything went normal ... as usual. 

[Realmzmaster]

xCirdanx wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
Bioware/EA and any other software company can get away with it, because it is very tough to prove in any court. Consumer protection laws and Congress have a tough time wrapping themselves around the software industry.
It is easy to say the hardware is broken or the disc is cracked, but the game is bug ridden?

It´s not that hard to prove, the problem is noone is coming along "let´s find it out". The other problem is that games are sold globaly...different laws..but it in the end it comes to america..where the companies are..and we all know how great your system is. (software law is a JOKE there...thats the only thing the EU was actualy good for..kicking MS in the balls here)

Another thing is, you can´t easily gain an audience for this problem...because in our society "gaming" is still laughed at and not taken serious. Not as a hobby and not as a job. I could name endless examples of coworkers who worked on the one or other game title but wouldn´t say it because other software devs would simple laugh at them "what? a game haha.." So much for social acceptance. And playing a game makes you a miserable person anyway be it sexual or you are a psycho then if you believe anything that get´s you told. (mostly in america..no offense to anyone who lives there please)

Knowing bugs are in the product and proving it legally are two different animals. The software law is a joke as you say. But since that is the law you would have to use to prosecute the case you will have a tough time doing it. Also unless the government takes up the case the average gamer is not going to have the financial means to do so. So in theory yes you can prove your case, in  actuality not a snowball's chance in a fiery pit.
Congress and the President have far more pressing issues than software law especially in regards to games.

As for other software beside games having a 45 day refund policy that is only good if you find the errors within that time period and the software is not mission critical. No company is going to pull mission critical software and ask for a refund. The developer of the software is going to have to fix it. I work for a university that started using BlackBoard for online courses. There is absolutely no chance of the software being returned for a refund not possible. The company will come out and fix it.
The 45 day refund is nice in theory. I yet to see any company return Oracle, PeopleSoft SAS etc in 45 days.
Also try returning Microsoft Office, Vista or Windows 7 to your nearest Staple after you remove the shrink wrap.

[Massadonious1]

Oh noes, not the BBB. BioWare might get a very angry letter.

[keesio74]

xCirdanx wrote...

Rant on i guess:

To be fair the OP is right, though he expects a bit too much.

I work in the software industry, and i can tell you that only game companies can get aways with such a thing.

I think that is because it is just a game. Not that important than say your OS crashing or some office SW crashing and costing work productivity. I work in the SW division of a major silicon company and the bugs in our SW can impact people using it to write SW for silicon used to deploy airbags or navigate aircraft. A bit more critical than when my game crashes when I try enter the room to get that new piece of armor for my warrior.

[AlanC9]

xCirdanx wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
Bioware/EA and any other software company can get away with it, because it is very tough to prove in any court. Consumer protection laws and Congress have a tough time wrapping themselves around the software industry.
It is easy to say the hardware is broken or the disc is cracked, but the game is bug ridden?

It´s not that hard to prove, the problem is noone is coming along "let´s find it out"

Of course, you're completely ignoring the substance of the problem, which is why you think it isn't hard. What is the definition of unacceptable bugginess in software? Come up with one and I'll take your position seriously.

[AlanC9]

Realmzmaster wrote...
Knowing bugs are in the product and proving it legally are two different animals. The software law is a joke as you say. But since that is the law you would have to use to prosecute the case you will have a tough time doing it..

Well, the legal regime could be changed, theoretically. But changed to what?

[JaegerBane]

keesio74 wrote...

xCirdanx wrote...

Rant on i guess:

To be fair the OP is right, though he expects a bit too much.

I work in the software industry, and i can tell you that only game companies can get aways with such a thing.

I think that is because it is just a game. Not that important than say your OS crashing or some office SW crashing and costing work productivity. I work in the SW division of a major silicon company and the bugs in our SW can impact people using it to write SW for silicon used to deploy airbags or navigate aircraft. A bit more critical than when my game crashes when I try enter the room to get that new piece of armor for my warrior.

Precisely. Saying 'only game companies get away with it' is missing the point. When it comes to fault tolerance and QA the level required for a game to be judged 'acceptable' is just much lower than other pieces of software. OS manufacturers haven't got an exactly glittering reputation either. All of this is by virtue of the fact that if a function in the game fails, people don't die or reactors don't explode.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 20 avril 2010 - 05:58 .

[Realmzmaster]

Let's face it. If you brought a ticket to a crappy movie or brought a bug ridden game most people are going to tell you get over it.
If the sotware that runs your pacemaker, controls the pressure in an airplane cabin or controls the speed of your automobile goes out of whack, whole different level of liability. This will grab people's attention. This is why people who program these devices must be extremely careful. Life is involved.
The fact that your warrior ends up in his/her all in all will not register on the radar.
What your video game crashed? Go play Magic the Gathering the most you can get is a paper cut. (And no I am not picking on Magic the Gathering insert your favorite card game). It is a video game get over yourself.
The accounting system crash and the company cannot issue paychecks. No quite as critical as the pacemaker, but not as low on the ladder as a video game.
What you still on the coach or in your chair playing that video game? Go out and play golf. Play a respectable game. Quit vegetating!
Video games are a waste of time. Almost as bad as watching television.
So you made 3 million points at Pac Man or the 30th level in DA:A or your are a 26th level Ranger/Warrior/Rogue., who cares?
Face it! We gamers get no respect except from other gamers (sometimes)!

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 20 avril 2010 - 06:07 .

[Nightfish103]

Bioware isn't going to try to improve their games much beyond "playable for most people", that's just not their core thing. Their core competence is story telling and they're probably going to try and keep the focus on that. Unless people really started boycotting companies that released buggy games there is no pressure to get them to a bug free state prior to shipping them. And let's face it. That's never going to happen. And to be honeset, that's not that bad. I'd rather have a good game that's a little buggy than no game at all.

[Gryms]

I believe game companies should release games that are ateleast 95% bug free. If i buy a Blu-ray player, a DVD, a Car, rent an apartment, I dont expect to have to wait for months to have them "patched" to have them useable.
If i bought a Blu-ray that had faulty parts id get a new one from the store or sent a new one in the post. 3 - 4 weeks.
If i bought a DVD that had horrible menu management or there was a known release issue with the burning the store or company does a recall and i get my money back, a refund or a credit. 2 - 4 weeks.
If i buy a car with a dodgey stereo from a new car sales yard... they replace the stereo (kind of a bug fix?). 1-3 weeks.
If i rent an apartment i expect all the toilets, the oven, the lights, the locks, the drawers, the doors... everything, to work. If not i ring the realestate and they fix it ASAP if its essential like water mains or electrical wiring, or it can take upto 2 weeks for the others depending on what it is.

(Ive actually been unlucky enough to have been effected by each of those senarios yay me)

People sited other game companies, Blizzard, Bethseda, etc, saying that they also release games which are bugged etc and thats its the natural order of things. Ive played mmo's for years, WoW in particular generally causes as many issues as it resolves on its first implimentation of a patch... opening of ZG for example, wandering plague was a mess in the capital cities on high pop servers. The bug crippled some servers but Blizzard worked dilligently to release a fix and got one out within 6 hours i believe. They always have minor bugs.. the small orc shoulders lol. None of them were crippling like the bugs within the DA xpack. Losing all your gear, not being able to complete major character building quests or even start them in some instances, i consider them crippling considering the game isnt that long to begin with. (side note, why the hell should i pay for a DLC that is incompatible with an expansion pack. Its like Holden selling me a commodore ute with a spoiler that doesnt fit on the tray cover that they sell you both seperately but dont tell you they wont both fit at the time of sale)
Games likes AoC were utterly ridiculous with bugs on release, why the hell should gamers have to download 10 gigs of patches on release because they screwed up the game so badly.
MMO's get the brunt of bad patch fixes because they are always being poppulated by lots of people, but games on consoles these days also get quite a few patches aswell thanks to online functionality. Borderlands has had a few patches on my Xbox however the bugs were so minimal i didnt notice them until i read they were bugs. Actually i remeber playing Devil May cry 4 and lost oddysey... i dont remember having them patched. Lost Oddysey is 4 discs long yet it got its stuff right first time round... is there really any reason for a buggy console game?

Ive had some major glitch issues with some games and have reported them... regularly. I generally am lucky to get an autoresponse  from the companies involved. What about gamers who play on consoles and dont actually use PC's to research games, are they suppose to rely on the game company to deliver a working product or are they suppose to rely on the salesman selling them the game at the store? And how do those type of gamers report bugs in the first place? 

Should it really be the norm that game companies release games and
content that are bugged and we just accept it? If it was anything other
than a "game" we wouldnt accept it. Why do game companies get special
privliges? I dont need a blender with an lcd display to tell me how
fast its spinning, but the manufacturer will replace it if the lcd
doesnt work. I dont need a USB T.A.R.D.I.S 6 port hub, but i could get
a refund if any of the ports on mine didnt work. (BTW Dr Who = Awesome)

By the way, the EULA that people think is the bee's knees... its written inside the damn manual thats IN the box the game comes in. The stores will not take back a copy of a game because you dont install it because you dont agree with the EULA either. Rock and a hard place it seems lol.

[13Dannyboy13]

Nightfish103 wrote...

Bioware isn't going to try to improve their games much beyond "playable for most people", that's just not their core thing. Their core competence is story telling and they're probably going to try and keep the focus on that. Unless people really started boycotting companies that released buggy games there is no pressure to get them to a bug free state prior to shipping them. And let's face it. That's never going to happen. And to be honeset, that's not that bad. I'd rather have a good game that's a little buggy than no game at all.

A little buggy, sure, but this game is very buggy and has been since day one. If they were a few small bugs it wouldn't matter as much, but there are more than one game breaking bugs present that they have done absolutely nothing about. Unless you play on pc you don't even have fixes for the smaller bugs like the dex bug, which they didn't even have the courtesy to add in the buggy 1.03 "patch". As you said, there really is no pressure on them since so many people go out and mindlessly buy up every little thing released, even useless dlc, so they are making money and will continue to do so no matter what we say. They take advantage of this sadly by basicly ignoring the problems in the game and trying marketing and PR bullsh*t instead. I mean when regular gamers who make mods can fix what BiowEAre simply refuses to do in a couple of hours it really says something about their attitude towards us and since there is really no recourse for their behavior, I only see things continuing to go downhill. Not that they care, but I will never pre-order another BiowEAre game, and will most likely only buy used if at all, they are just not the same company that I've been a huge fan of for years since they sold their souls to EA.

[LIKASOMBODEE]

Eurypterid wrote...

Obviously you're upset, but can you point out these problems?

Why would he have to point out his specific problems when 80% of the Forum are pointing out the same problems. Isn't it obvious what they are.

[Realmzmaster]

Bioware did not sale themselves to EA. Elevation Partners that owned the VG Group that consisted of BioWare and Pandemic sold them to EA.
Elevation Partners is a private equity firm that pumped money ($300 million) to form an alliance between BioWare and Pandemic. Elevation Partners owned Bioware and Pandemic. In 2007 EA bought Bioware and Pandemic from Elevation Partners for about $860 million.
Bioware probably had very little say in the sale. BioWare did not sell their souls it was sold for them. But that is business when you look for outside money to fund your product you have to dance to someone else's tune.
Now since EA has an $860 million dollar investment you better believe it wants to see a return on that investment or some stakeholders are going to be very unhappy.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 20 avril 2010 - 07:01 .

[traversc]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Bioware did not sale themselves to EA. Elevation Partners that owned the VG Group that consisted of BioWare and Pandemic sold them to EA.
Elevation Partners is a private equity firm that pumped money ($300 million) to form an alliance between BioWare and Pandemic. Elevation Partners owned Bioware and Pandemic. In 2007 EA bought Bioware and Pandemic from Elevation Partners for about $860 million.
Bioware probably had very little say in the sale. BioWare did not sell their souls it was sold for them. But that is business when you look for outside money to fund your product you have to dance to someone else's tune.
Now since EA has an $860 million dollar investment you better believe it wants to see a return on that investment or some stakeholders are going to be very unhappy.

I remember reading somewhere that EA has a hands off approach to managing BW, as they are considered a "trusted developer."  Thus, EA don't do anything but sign the bills.  It is BW that decides when to release the game. 

I can't find the link, but anyone knows what I'm talking about?

[TheMadCat]

But that is business when you look for outside money to fund your product you have to dance to someone else's tune.
Now
since EA has an $860 million dollar investment you better believe it
wants to see a return on that investment or some stakeholders are going
to be very unhappy. ../../../../images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png

Are you nuts? Buying BioWare is arguably the only thing they've done right this decade aside from their early strides into the casual market and micro/subscription based transactions. Hell the stockholder in me is wishing EA would just hurry up and assimilate BioWare, gut 75% of the company only keeping key personel, and get to work on the further productions of their IP's with their own in house development teams that'll rake in a ton of cash so I can see my shares value break even for the first time in years.

  I remember reading somewhere that EA has a hands off approach to
managing BW, as they are considered a "trusted developer."  Thus, EA
don't do anything but sign the bills.  It is BW that decides when to
release the game. 
I can't find the link, but anyone knows what I'm talking about?

That's not really the typical EA approach, they certainly never granted that luxury to Maxis and Will Wright and in terms of revenue generation they curb stomp BioWare. I mean it's possible, but EA just signing the bills on a company that came in a $860m package? I have a feeling the massive increase in product releases post-EA compared to pre-EA I'm sure has quite a bit to do with the bossmen doing a bit more than signing the bills.